Israel / Hamas Conflict in the West Bank

[RedPhoenix]

Here's a good article from the AP about current American attitudes towards accepting refugees: "Republicans warn many Gaza refugees could be headed for the U.S. Here’s why that’s unlikely" https://apnews.com/article/gaza-israel-refugee-crisis-gop-ban-terrorism-85afcf677743b8f8c82fe814ffe61161

It should have probably occurred to me that the US Republican party would turn this into a xenophobic talking point.

This also supports earlier points I've been making about the harmful nature of spreading lies. Trump is claiming that Hamas militants are entering the US.

Pointing to the Oct. 7 attacks and the taking of hostages by the Iran-backed militant group Hamas that sparked Israel’s retaliation and war in Gaza, Trump also suggested in an online post that “The same people that raided Israel are pouring into our once beautiful USA, through our TOTALLY OPEN SOUTHERN BORDER.”

There is of course no proof of this whatsoever.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said the U.S. should not take in any Palestinian refugees fleeing Gaza because they “are all antisemitic.” Former South Carolina governor Nikki Haley, who was also Trump’s ex-ambassador to the United Nations, countered that “America has has always been sympathetic to the fact that you can separate civilians from terrorists.” Never Back Down, DeSantis’ super PAC, is running an ad implying Haley is soft on allowing refugees into the country, which the Haley campaign rebuts as “false.”

The lack of ability to separate Gazans from Hamas is appalling from DeSantis, not that I expected any better. Attacking someone for being "soft on refugees" is about the most un-American thing I can think of. Soft on refugees. I'm having a hard time even processing that as an attack on someone. You may as well accuse someone of being soft on the elderly. Or veterans. Or kittens.

Thankfully the AP is not overlooking that most Gazans can't even leave the area let alone enter America:

Those fleeing the northern part of Gaza, where Israel has warned that a ground war is coming, have enough trouble simply moving to the southern part of the territory due to Israeli airstrikes and rockets fired by Hamas.

Israel has fortified its border with Gaza’s 141-square-mile (365-square-kilometer) territory to prevent militants from sneaking into the country. But rather than triggering border runs, the displacement has unleashed a humanitarian crisis throughout Gaza, where nearly 1 million people are facing severe shortages of housing, food and clean drinking water.

Those making it to the southern part of the territory can usually go no further because Egypt, the only other country that borders Gaza, has closed its crossing, at least for now. Even if crossings eventually resume, Arab and European countries have so far been hesitant to take large numbers of Palestinian refugees, especially after receiving many people fleeing recent displacement in Syria.

And that those who can make it here are very likely to get rejected:

During the last fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, the U.S. aimed to admit 125,000 people but ultimately only admitted about 60,000. The biggest numbers of resettled refugees came from the Democratic Republic of Congo, Syria, Afghanistan and Burma. Only 56 came from the Palestinian territories.

And that Biden has shown no sign of willingness to change anything in this regard:

Biden has been vocal about Israel’s right to defend itself. The president traveled to Israel on Wednesday and announced humanitarian aid for civilians in Gaza that would flow from Egypt and included $100 million in U.S. funding. But his administration has given little indication that it would be willing to make humanitarian parole exceptions for people fleeing Gaza.

That exception is the one that is currently on offer to Ukrainians, among a few others (which you can read about here if you're curious https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian ).

CBS also did a piece on this: "Are terrorists trying to enter the U.S. through the southern border? Here are the facts." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-mexico-border-terrorists/

There have been no indications that any individuals affiliated with Hamas have been arrested along the U.S.-Mexico border in recent years.

Is the relevant sentence, but the article is filled with good information and worth a read for anyone wanting to understand the situation more.

So if there's anyone on your socials pushing the same old "they're going to come into our neighborhoods and kidnap us" scare tactic with Antifa crossed out and Hamas written in you are now hopefully armed with the knowledge to shoot that down.

[inkybus]

Let me see if I can rephrase better. International tolerance of Israel's justification for entering Gaza, I think is largely premised on the hostages. The pressure from Jewish communities around the world and sympathetic friends is almost entirely based on "rescue the hostages." Take that away and I think a lot of American/European sympathy for a ground assault vanishes.

That's for damn sure, yes.

An eye for an eye eventually makes the whole world blind: but the faction leaders of both sides do not care about something like that. It's all about getting the land and killing anyone who opposes them: story as old as time.

[Oniya]

The stuff I've been reading suggests that Russia is more need of weapons going into Russia to support their attack on Ukraine - that Iranian drones being sold to Russia is a large part of what motivates Iran to keep wars going in that area, and that international aid being diverted from Ukraine to Israel will prolong that war and thus make more money for Iran.

And yeah wars drive up the price of oil, which everyone in that part of the world loves.

But it's not just totalitarian states that profit from war sadly. Israel gets a lot of its weapons from America still. Too many horrible people get too rich off of misery.

Considering the alliances among them, it's more of an observation that the general destabilization benefits all of them - and Putin benefits specifically from 1 (notice that people are focusing more on this than on Ukraine - both in eyes and in troops) and 3 (oil).  The cynic in me thinks that some arms dealers would be fine 'supporting' both sides - after all, it's not their people on the ground. 

[GloomCookie]

Putin loves not having eyes on him and Ukraine. It gives him a little room to keep up pressure there while Iran deals with Israel, and China puts pressure on Taiwan. They're hoping the US can't be drawn into a multi-front support role, and that if they just shake the tree hard enough, something juicy that they want will fall out. Consider it like this: If any one of those three fronts that I mentioned falls, someone wins, and all three win by making the US look weak in the eyes of the world. Willing to bet that China will start putting a lot more pressure on Taiwan in the next few months once the international community's outrage dies down. I'd even go so far as to say that China will aim for some false-flag attack trying to bait the US into action.

[RedPhoenix]

That's for damn sure, yes.

An eye for an eye eventually makes the whole world blind: but the faction leaders of both sides do not care about something like that. It's all about getting the land and killing anyone who opposes them: story as old as time.

Yeah, when you see your own people as sacrificial pawns you don't really care if their eyes get poked out.

Considering the alliances among them, it's more of an observation that the general destabilization benefits all of them - and Putin benefits specifically from 1 (notice that people are focusing more on this than on Ukraine - both in eyes and in troops) and 3 (oil).  The cynic in me thinks that some arms dealers would be fine 'supporting' both sides - after all, it's not their people on the ground. 

I don't think this is cynical at all. I think the only reason they don't already do this is that it would cost them more money in the long term. Then again maybe I'm the cynical one.

Putin loves not having eyes on him and Ukraine. It gives him a little room to keep up pressure there while Iran deals with Israel, and China puts pressure on Taiwan. They're hoping the US can't be drawn into a multi-front support role, and that if they just shake the tree hard enough, something juicy that they want will fall out. Consider it like this: If any one of those three fronts that I mentioned falls, someone wins, and all three win by making the US look weak in the eyes of the world. Willing to bet that China will start putting a lot more pressure on Taiwan in the next few months once the international community's outrage dies down. I'd even go so far as to say that China will aim for some false-flag attack trying to bait the US into action.

Well, this is definitely the best opportunity anyone who has been waiting for America to be distracted is going to get for awhile. China I'm sure is not the only country out there weighing pros and cons of what they can use this for. And if they do ever want to make a military play for Taiwan doing it while America is being drained by two other wars an everyone knows the idea of American soldiers being deployed overseas is incredibly unpopular no matter what the cause is.

On the complete opposite side of things, the other way China may get involved is as a peacekeeper. They have strong trading ties with Israel and would love to show the world that they can solve a problem that the Americans couldn't, for example: "China’s Xi seeks swift end to Israel-Hamas conflict, calls for two-state solution." ( https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/china/china-xi-israel-hamas-ceasefire-comment-intl-hnk/index.html )

China also, unlike Iran and Russia, has reasons to want stability in the Middle East, and of course they also have reasons to not want Muslims worldwide to ask too many questions about how they treat their own Muslim population. Some interesting points about here:  "The Israel-Hamas War Is Testing China’s Diplomatic Strategy" ( https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/17/israel-hamas-war-palestine-gaza-china-xi-jinping/ )

I think most likely they're waiting to see what shakes out in the near future before committing to anything. I can only imagine all the scenarios and responses they're considering right now.

On that note the U.S. military is now actively involved. The Navy shot down cruise missiles that were shot at Israel by Iran backed rebels in Yemen.

"US military shoots down missiles and drones as it faces growing threats in volatile Middle East" ( https://apnews.com/article/yemen-navy-warship-missiles-intercepted-2f5fc9c8a3737f762b29d5c53ec08a5b )

With tensions spiking in the Middle East, U.S. forces in the region are facing increasing threats as a Navy warship shot down missiles appearing to head toward Israel Thursday and American bases in Iraq and Syria were repeatedly targeted by drone attacks.

...

Iranian-backed Houthi rebels have expressed support for the Palestinians and threatened Israel. Last week, in Yemen’s Sanaa, which is held by the Houthi rebels still at war with a Saudi-led coalition, demonstrators crowded the streets waving Yemeni and Palestinian flags. The rebels’ slogan long has been, “God is the greatest; death to America; death to Israel; curse of the Jews; victory to Islam.”

[GloomCookie]

You're right that Xi's plan could be to use peace as a weapon just as much as direct military intervention. While an armed conflict would get them Taiwan, the Chinese don't think in 5 to 10 year plans, they tend to be more long term. Short term conflicts don't usually net them a lot when they can try and obtain what they want through other means. That said, this would be a golden opportunity for them.

I'm not a WW3 is imminent doomsayer, since that kind of thinking is exceptionally short sighted. Both nations are fully aware the other has a nuclear arsenal and what said arsenal can do to the other. There's a reason that we didn't scrap the US Navy after WW2 (which was a proposal put on the table btw) because of the 'escalation ladder'. Templin Institute put out a good video about it talking about science fiction, but it's still applicable to real-world politics.

[RedPhoenix]

Indeed, if there is one thing China is it is patient.

So, one thing I keep wondering is - how does one get to the point where being handed a North Korean rocket launcher and told to go kidnap, torture, and murder defenseless people and babies is something anyone could ever do. I don't buy the traditional dehumanizing explanations I often hear. And while I understand that there is a lot of righteousness behind anger at Israel, especially among the people of Gaza, that would explain why going to war could make sense, not torturing children.

But on reading some more it probably shouldn't have surprised me that it turns out part of the answer is drugs - basically speed, although the version is one I'd never heard of before. Getting your militants out of their minds so that committing atrocities is easier is nothing new of course, but ever since modern stimulants came into play it's gotten a lot easier. I just didn't realize it was so prevalent in this part of the world.

In the aftermath of the surprise attack on October 7, evidence has emerged suggesting that some of the terrorists involved had used the drug heptagon, also known as "the poor man's cocaine."

This drug was discovered in both captured individuals and on the bodies of attackers, as bullets were found concealed in their clothing, Israel’s Channel 12 reported on Thursday.

Heptagon is known for its ability to provide extended periods of alertness, a quality that may have been exploited by the terrorists during their brutal attacks. The production of this drug is primarily centered in Lebanon and Syria. Originally, it was used as a medication to treat depression and attention disorders, as it induces a sense of euphoria and suppresses fear. The drug has earned various nicknames in the region, including "the drug of Jihad," "the drug of ISIS," and "the drug of the poor."

Previously, it was reported that ISIS fighters used Captagon, as it was believed to help them suppress fear before launching terrorist acts. Even after the weakening of ISIS, the distribution of this drug continued. However, it was eventually deemed illegal due to its addictive and potentially lethal properties in certain doses. Nonetheless, its production persists, particularly in the Middle East.

The proliferation of Captagon, particularly in the Syrian region, dates back at least to 2006 during the Second Lebanon War, with Hezbollah's involvement. According to data, in 2022, revenues from Captagon exports from Syria were estimated at approximately $30 billion. In recent years, the drug has gained popularity in the Gaza Strip, with tens of thousands of users, particularly among unemployed young individuals caught in a cycle of addiction.

"Drug known as 'poor man's cocaine' found on bodies of October 7 terrorists"
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1697781744-drug-known-as-poor-man-s-cocaine-found-on-bodies-of-october-7-terrorists

But wait, I ask myself, isn't Islam a religion that forbids drug use? How does one act as a fundamentalist militant and use drugs then? Well, turns out that stimulant use is debatable.

Any substance, whether liquid, solid, or gas, that significantly alters your mind such that you cannot think properly is considered haram. Such substances would become permissible to use under extreme duress, such as using them as a pain killer or anesthetic. Sugar or caffeine used in normal doses is halal because merely getting excited does not significantly alter the mind.

https://seekersguidance.org/answers/when-are-drugs-considered-forbidden/

So apparently the theory goes because stimulants make your thinking faster and clearer while under the effects of them they do not "cloud your mind" in the way that substances forbidden under Islam do. So you can still be a Muslim fanatic and take stimulants, according to some.

Making stimulants is therefore big business in Syria. Which has been described as becoming a new narcostate in the wake of all the destabilization and horrors that country has gone through.

The drug trade emerged in the ruins of a decade of war, which shattered Syria’s economy, reduced most of its people to poverty and left members of Syria’s military, political and business elite looking for new ways to earn hard currency and circumvent U.S. economic sanctions.

Illicit speed is now the country’s most valuable export, far surpassing its legal products, according to a database compiled by the Times of global captagon busts.

In recent years, authorities in Greece, Italy, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere have seized hundreds of millions of pills, most of them originating from one government-controlled port in Syria, some in hauls whose street value could exceed $1 billion, according to law enforcement officials.

Officials in Italy found 84 million pills hidden in huge rolls of paper and metal gears last year. Malaysian officials discovered more than 94 million pills sealed inside rubber trolley wheels in March.

These seizures probably represent only a fraction of the drugs shipped, drug experts say. But they provide a window into the scope of the trade, suggesting that the industry has exploded in recent years.

More than 250 million captagon pills have been seized across the globe so far this year, more than 18 times the amount captured just four years ago.

There's a lot more in the article. I had no idea this was going on.

"On Syria’s ruins, a drug empire flourishes"
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-nyt-syria-drug-empire-20211206-dbdlfefm5fgurbm7yf6jouqc4q-story.html

I'm learning all sorts of horrible things due to this conflict. Being flooded with North Korean guns, Syrian knock off meth, and years of being radicalized by being taught hatred and being mistreated brings things into a clearer, if all the more tragic, picture.

The years that it took to produce this also just brings more starkly into focus all the opportunities the world at large, especially America, had to avoid this by brokering peace in the area through the two state solution that seems to be widely accepted as a viable end to this conflict.

[inkybus]

"Drug known as 'poor man's cocaine' found on bodies of October 7 terrorists"
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1697781744-drug-known-as-poor-man-s-cocaine-found-on-bodies-of-october-7-terrorists

But wait, I ask myself, isn't Islam a religion that forbids drug use? How does one act as a fundamentalist militant and use drugs then? Well, turns out that stimulant use is debatable.

They were not the first. ISIS did it before them and others before ISIS.

Hell, royalty of Saudi Arabia got smeared when they were caught with drugs.
"Saudi prince arrested in Lebanon trying to smuggle two tonnes of amphetamine pills out of the country by private jet"
"Saudi Royal, Four Others Detained in Beirut Captagon Bust"

I can't help but feel depressed that I'm expecting this sort of hypocrisy and degeneracy from those higher up in terms of Powers That Be.

[Chulanowa]

"Drug known as 'poor man's cocaine' found on bodies of October 7 terrorists"
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1697781744-drug-known-as-poor-man-s-cocaine-found-on-bodies-of-october-7-terrorists

But wait, I ask myself, isn't Islam a religion that forbids drug use? How does one act as a fundamentalist militant and use drugs then? Well, turns out that stimulant use is debatable.

Heptagon tablet is a combination of Calcium pantothenate (2.5mg), Carnitine (50mg), Elemental zinc (5mg), folic acid (0.05mg), L-ornithine-l-aspartate (50mg), Lecithin (75mg), N-Acetylcysteine (50mg), Silymarin (200mg), Vitamin B1 (0.8mg), Vitamin B2 (1mg), Vitamin B6 (1mg), Vitamin C (20mg), Vitamin D3 (200IU), Vitamin E (5IU)

https://www.medplusmart.com/product/heptagon-tab_hept0009

Calcium pantothenate is vitamin B5. Carnitine and N-Acetylcysteine are amino acids. L-o-l-a is an antioxidant (and a very mild sedative, according to some reports.) Silymarin is an anti-oxidant that comes from thistle plants. Your "poor man's cocaine" is a dietary supplement in the same weight class as Centrum Silver

I like how instead of going "what the fuck is heptagon?" you just rolled with it.

[RedPhoenix]

It was captagon, not heptagon. I didn't realize those were two different things. The only results I got for heptagon was the shape and nothing came up for a pill so I just assumed it was a slang term or marketing label or something like drugs often have different names but do the same thing (hate to burst your bubble, but I did look it up). But anyways, that wasn't what was found - either that article made the same mistake I did (as the drug they describe is clearly captagon, not heptagon) or it was just wrong.

Here's a better article, which is more in line with what everything else I'm finding is saying.

Hamas terrorists who carried out a surprise attack on October 7 were found to be under the influence of Captagon, a synthetic amphetamine-type stimulant that has been clandestinely produced in southern Europe and trafficked through Turkey to the consumer markets on the Arabian Peninsula, as reported by Nir Dvori of Channel 12.

The pills were recovered from the pockets of many terrorists who lost their lives on Israeli soil.

This stimulant drug, also known as the "cocaine for the poor," allowed the terrorists to commit heinous acts with a sense of calmness and indifference. Simultaneously, it kept them highly alert for extended periods and suppressed their appetite.

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/hamas-terrorists-were-high-on-illegal-cocaine-for-the-poor-while-invading-israel-report-says-palestine-gaza-terrorism-invasion-attack-middle-east-conflict-captagon-pills-stimulant

Again, the first article made a mistake which I compounded by not recognizing those were two different things. Captagon is, I am learning, a substance that is causing serious addiction problems in that part of the world. Heptagon, apparently, is a completely harmless pill. Captagon is what was found on Hamas. Mea culpa and apologies for any confusion.

[Keelan]

Calcium pantothenate is vitamin B5. Carnitine and N-Acetylcysteine are amino acids. L-o-l-a is an antioxidant (and a very mild sedative, according to some reports.) Silymarin is an anti-oxidant that comes from thistle plants. Your "poor man's cocaine" is a dietary supplement in the same weight class as Centrum Silver

I like how instead of going "what the fuck is heptagon?" you just rolled with it.

Upon research, this appears to be accurate. However, reading the article it also mentions Captagon - which is an amphetimine-family drug that I could absolutely see being used to treat depression and ADHD - and so I checked for other articles and found these two:

https://www.wionews.com/world/hamas-terrorists-first-consumed-drugs-then-slaughtered-israelis-on-oct-7-report-649063
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/article-769250

Here they report the drug was Captagon, not heptagon, which honestly makes  substantially more sense in context here.

I suspect that the heptagon (especially as it's not capitalized) reporting may in fact be a typo, and what they MEANT was what was reported in the articles I provided and that they took Captagon.

Alternative to incompetence would be malice, and thus we'd assume they were trying to make it seem like it was some scary new drug and made themselves look stupid, but that seems the less likely cause here in my opinion.

[Chulanowa]

Aha, that makes more sense then.

Looking it up seems less like "poor man's cocaine" and more like "just fuckin meth," but I gotcha.

[GloomCookie]

So, something I was listening to this morning was a report from NPR about how China has been increasingly taunting Taiwanese airspace since Nancy Pelosi's visit to the country last summer. 103 fighters flew around Taiwan in a single day, attempting to keep Taiwanese pilots on their toes and wear them down without openly declaring war.

NPR: China is subtly increasing military pressure on Taiwan without declaring an invasion

Now, what I see happening is that China sends pilots who are well rested and clear headed and basically keep pushing further and further, attempting to get the Taiwanese pilots, who are worn down and tired, to make a mistake and hopefully fire first. Then China will claim the high ground and use it as justification to declare a 'just' war, citing outrage over the incident. If not a war, then at least make demands that are unreasonable, claiming it is justified in the demands because it was a Taiwanese fighter that made the mistake.

I don't see this ending well if such tactics continue.

[Chulanowa]

So, something I was listening to this morning was a report from NPR about how China has been increasingly taunting Taiwanese airspace since Nancy Pelosi's visit to the country last summer. 103 fighters flew around Taiwan in a single day, attempting to keep Taiwanese pilots on their toes and wear them down without openly declaring war.

NPR: China is subtly increasing military pressure on Taiwan without declaring an invasion

Now, what I see happening is that China sends pilots who are well rested and clear headed and basically keep pushing further and further, attempting to get the Taiwanese pilots, who are worn down and tired, to make a mistake and hopefully fire first. Then China will claim the high ground and use it as justification to declare a 'just' war, citing outrage over the incident. If not a war, then at least make demands that are unreasonable, claiming it is justified in the demands because it was a Taiwanese fighter that made the mistake.

I don't see this ending well if such tactics continue.

Feels weird to ask the thread starter is,but can we at least try to keep this thread on topic? There's plenty of other threads about how every problem around the world is the nefarious plot of Russia and or China.

Maybe let's not clog up this thread with nonsensical speculation that the  75 year occupation and violence that comes with it is part of "The Big Plot." 5400+ have been killed in both Israel and Palestine in this current paroxysm, and I think reducing them to "a distraction so China can annoy Taiwan!c is... actually really fucking gross.

[RedPhoenix]

First, a tiny sliver of good news. Two American hostages have been released.

"2 American hostages held since Hamas attack on Israel released: IDF"
https://abcnews.go.com/International/2-american-hostages-held-hamas-attack-israel-released/story?id=104069707

There aren't a lot of details but for those who have followed the story this is the mother/daughter pair whose picture at the high school graduation has been used a lot. They are with the Red Cross now and appear to be physically unharmed. Apparently we have Qatar to thank.

Hamas had been in negotiations with Qatar government officials to release women, children and the elderly who are not Israeli, officials said on Oct. 17. During the negotiations, Hamas said the release of some hostages would depend on whether Israel was willing to free 36 women and teenage Palestinians being held in Israeli prisons, but Israel rejected the proposal, according to the The Times of Israel newspaper.

There's a lot to unpack in this paragraph and it's a bit beyond me at the moment, but we can at least take some small comfort in that there are two fewer hostages behind held.

On a more depressing note, a State Department official has resigned over America's approach to Israel. This is depressing because if one reads his resignation letter this seems like exactly the sort of person we'd want there right now and the fact that he thinks he can't be a part of it any more bodes badly.

"U.S. State Department official resigns over military aid to Israel"
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/19/us-state-department-official-resigns-israel-military-aid

The letter he wrote is attached to that article. A few relevant quotes:

Yes, PM can still do an immense amount of good in the world: there is still, sadly, a great need for American security assistance - a need for American arms and defense cooperation to defend against the multiple military perils that democracy, democracies, and humanity itself, face on this earth. But we cannot be both against occupation, and for it. We cannot be both for freedom, and against it. And we cannot be for a better world, while contributing to one that is materially worse.

Who could disagree with this?

(PM is the "Bureau of Political-Military Affairs" which is where he worked)

Let me be clear: Hamas' attack on Israel was not just a monstrosity; it was a monstrosity of monstrosities. I also believe that potential escalations by Iran-linked groups such as Hezbollah, or by Iran itself, would be a further cynical exploitation of the existing tragedy. But I believe to the core of my soul that the response Israel is taking, and with it the American support both for that response, and for the status quo of the occupation, will only lead to more and deeper suffering for both the Israeli and the Palestinian people - and is not in the long term American interest. This Administration's response - and much of Congress' as well - is an impulsive reaction built on confirmation bias, political convenience, intellectual bankruptcy, and bureaucratic inertia. That is to say, it is immensely disappointing, and entirely unsurprising. Decades of the same approach have shown that security for peace leads to neither security, nor to peace. The fact is, blind support for one side is destructive in the long term to the interests of the people on both sides. I fear we are repeating the same mistakes we have made these past decades, and I decline to be a part of it for longer.

Indications are that Biden wants something like $14 billion in aid for Israel. It's hard to see how that would be taken as anything but an endorsement of the current approach. Whether he'll actually get it or not is another question, but that's the goal of President right now and I think this take on it is right.

Random fact I learned while reading about this. The State Department has a "Dissent Channel" that was established during Vietnam to let people criticize US Policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent_Channel

Apparently it's about to be very busy as Mr. Paul was not the only one who felt that way (thankfully).

The negativity is surfacing in a variety of ways. One official described peers as “depressed and angry about it all,” while another said some staff are experiencing “resignation.” That official recalled a colleague in tears during a meeting over their view “that U.S. policy statements emphasized support for Israel over the lives of Palestinians.”

Senior State Department officials have privately discouraged the agency from using three specific phrases in public statements, HuffPost revealed last week: “de-escalation/ceasefire,” “end to violence/bloodshed” and “restoring calm.”

In one office, a manager told their team that they know staff with extensive international experience are unhappy with Biden’s plan ― particularly the sense that the U.S. will do little to ensure Israeli restraint ― but they have little chance of changing it, an official present at the meeting said.

Multiple officials said they have heard colleagues talk about quitting as Paul did. One U.S. official described Paul’s decision as a shock and a major loss for the department.

The severity of the language in the dissent cable, and the number of State Department officials who sign it, will offer a picture of how alarmed staffers are at America’s response to the situation in Gaza and how broad the disagreement with Biden’s policy is ― and could determine whether it actually inspires a change in course.

"Exclusive: ‘Mutiny Brewing’ Inside State Department Over Israel-Palestine Policy"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-mutiny-brewing-inside-state-224132063.html (this is a huffington post article, despite what the link says)

[GloomCookie]

Feels weird to ask the thread starter is,but can we at least try to keep this thread on topic? There's plenty of other threads about how every problem around the world is the nefarious plot of Russia and or China.

Maybe let's not clog up this thread with nonsensical speculation that the  75 year occupation and violence that comes with it is part of "The Big Plot." 5400+ have been killed in both Israel and Palestine in this current paroxysm, and I think reducing them to "a distraction so China can annoy Taiwan!c is... actually really fucking gross.

My apologies, I have created a separate thread to discuss this situation. And I didn't mean to imply that it was merely a distraction, just that it would not surprise me if China chose to take advantage of the situation.

[Chulanowa]

First, a tiny sliver of good news. Two American hostages have been released.

"2 American hostages held since Hamas attack on Israel released: IDF"
https://abcnews.go.com/International/2-american-hostages-held-hamas-attack-israel-released/story?id=104069707

There aren't a lot of details but for those who have followed the story this is the mother/daughter pair whose picture at the high school graduation has been used a lot. They are with the Red Cross now and appear to be physically unharmed. Apparently we have Qatar to thank.

There's a lot to unpack in this paragraph and it's a bit beyond me at the moment, but we can at least take some small comfort in that there are two fewer hostages behind held.

On a more depressing note, a State Department official has resigned over America's approach to Israel. This is depressing because if one reads his resignation letter this seems like exactly the sort of person we'd want there right now and the fact that he thinks he can't be a part of it any more bodes badly.

"U.S. State Department official resigns over military aid to Israel"
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/19/us-state-department-official-resigns-israel-military-aid

The letter he wrote is attached to that article. A few relevant quotes:

Who could disagree with this?

(PM is the "Bureau of Political-Military Affairs" which is where he worked)

Indications are that Biden wants something like $14 billion in aid for Israel. It's hard to see how that would be taken as anything but an endorsement of the current approach. Whether he'll actually get it or not is another question, but that's the goal of President right now and I think this take on it is right.

Random fact I learned while reading about this. The State Department has a "Dissent Channel" that was established during Vietnam to let people criticize US Policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent_Channel

Apparently it's about to be very busy as Mr. Paul was not the only one who felt that way (thankfully).

"Exclusive: ‘Mutiny Brewing’ Inside State Department Over Israel-Palestine Policy"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-mutiny-brewing-inside-state-224132063.html (this is a huffington post article, despite what the link says)

The man makes some fine points. Unfortunately, the State Department answers to the Secretary of State (Anthony Blinken), who answers to the president (Joe Biden,) and ultimately everyone there serves at their pleasure. 

Let's remember Biden and Blinken's joint plan to carve Iraq into three ethno-religious states, as a "solution" to the struggles of the Iraq war... A war which both Biden and Blinken were very ardent advocates for. A war which Biden the other say said "got us justice" (Iraq hadn't done anything to us) "but also led to some mistakes" ("Some mistakes" being 2.3 million dead, 7 million displaced, thousands tortured, the total razing of at least one entire city, and a continuing instability in the region after twenty years) They were also big, big advocates for the 2011 assaults on Libya, that resulted in a genocide, the fracture of the country into four-ish regions controlled by rival warlords, and a renewed Barbary slave trade. In the Obama Administration, Anthony Blinken was credited as "one of the key players in crafting Syria policy" - a policy which very nearly took us into a third invasion in the middle east, and did end up creating, funding, and arming the "Islamic State." And all of this is without getting into both men's total, unquestioning, and frankly fawning endorsement of literally everything Israel does, has done, been suspected of doing, or even might conceivably do.

Not only have Biden and Blinken been consistently wrong in their approaches to and ideas about the middle east, they actually seem to make an effort to be wrong in whatever way would maximize harm and instability in the region.

These are the people mr. Paul and the rest of the department ultimately answer to. These lower-downs don't have any say in policy, they either follow the directions or they stop working there. There is no "upsetting the apple cart," no sort of "Hey hey ho ho hell no we won't go" stuff. Resign or get fired, and get replaced with a more pliable yes-man either way.

[elone]

The man makes some fine points. Unfortunately, the State Department answers to the Secretary of State (Anthony Blinken), who answers to the president (Joe Biden,) and ultimately everyone there serves at their pleasure.


These are the people mr. Paul and the rest of the department ultimately answer to. These lower-downs don't have any say in policy, they either follow the directions or they stop working there. There is no "upsetting the apple cart," no sort of "Hey hey ho ho hell no we won't go" stuff. Resign or get fired, and get replaced with a more pliable yes-man either way.

Unfortunately this is politics in America, and probably throughout much of the world.  Yes men, money, and power run our government.

[Oniya]

Twenty trucks have crossed the Egypt/Gaza border to deliver aid to Palestinians.

The 20 trucks represent a U.N.-brokered deal urged along by world leaders, including President Biden, who visited Israel this week. Among the concerns delaying the aid were Israel's fear that Hamas could intercept it or use the trucks to smuggle in weapons.

But aid groups have warned that 20 truckloads do not come close to addressing the humanitarian needs in Gaza, where the U.N. reports a severe shortage of potable water, food and medical supplies.

More than 100 additional trucks of aid continue to stand by on the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing. Additional aid is stockpiled in nearby El-Arish, with yet more set to arrive later today and in the days to come, the WHO said.

[GloomCookie]

There are currently just over 2 million people in Gaza, which puts each truck at being responsible for clothing, feeding, providing drinking water, and fuel for around 10,000 people each. No pressure.

I do hope that trucks like this do become more common, and that they make a humanitarian travel corridor. Logistics is a bitch on the best of days, and trying to get only a handful of trucks through at any given time to deliver that many supplies is nothing short of impossible. The last major event was the Berlin Airlift of 1948/49, where the Soviets cut off Berlin from supplies coming from Allied-controlled West Germany. It took hundreds of flights daily trying to keep the people of Berlin from suffering, and that was back in the 40s.

Moving by land is certainly easier, but there's still going to be a logistical strain, especially as Egypt gets a lot of its grain from, wait for it, Ukraine. The war in Ukraine is putting pressure on other nations but especially Egypt, and this is going to make getting sufficient food into Gaza harder than it already is. While I'm sure we (the US I mean) could load a container ship full of supplies and ship it to the region, it would still require docking at the port of Alexandria, Damietta, Said, Suez, Adabiya, Safaga, or Al Sokhna. The closest port would be Port Said, which would then require a 219km journey of about 4 hours to Rafah, the closest Egyptian town to the Gaza strip.

If we assume an average Panamax-sized container ship with around 10,000 containers, that would take those 20 trucks 4,000 hours, or around 167 days, to fully offload that vessel and get it to the Gaza strip. They would need a fleet of trucks moving around the clock trying to supply Gaza from there.

Alternatively, I hope that Biden could perhaps secure permission to send supplies to the Israeli port of Ashdod, which is located 42 kilometers or around 40 minutes from Gaza. Even if they only used the 20 trucks, that cuts delivery down to just 500 hours, or 21 days, to fully offload the same vessel.

I know I went off into the weeds here but hopefully we can see relief being allowed to route through Israel instead of trying to be wholly reliant on the border with Egypt.

[GloomCookie]

Meanwhile, Israel is stepping up its bombing campaign.

Volunteer efforts are being organized to get essential equipment to soldiers.

100,000 people in London are protesting the siege of Gaza.

And a bunch of celebrities think they can influence foreign policy with a letter to Biden.

[Al Terego]

Haven't visited this thread for a while, but...

Israel bombed al-Ahli baptist hospital in Gaza, killing at least 500. Of course Israel has blamed this on a "misfired rocket from Islamic Jihad," which the group denies. Well they should because it's a frankly absurd claim, especially when you consider that Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari also claims that "there was no direct hit" and the strike "a kind of hit in the parking lot." Doctors Without Borders disagrees.

Except that
The US, Canadian, British, and French intelligence agencies agree that it was a Palestinian rocket, based on the available evidence
CNN also agrees
Wikipedia summarizes that "Experts largely agreed that a misfired rocket launched from within Gaza was the likely cause of the explosion based on video analysis and the extent of the damage caused by the impact." The (sourced) evidence also agrees that the missile did in fact land in the parking lot.

But who cares about fact checking or evidence when there's an opportunity to demonize the Zionist dogs?

[Chulanowa]

Haven't visited this thread for a while, but...

Except that
The US, Canadian, British, and French intelligence agencies agree that it was a Palestinian rocket, based on the available evidence
CNN also agrees
Wikipedia summarizes that "Experts largely agreed that a misfired rocket launched from within Gaza was the likely cause of the explosion based on video analysis and the extent of the damage caused by the impact." The (sourced) evidence also agrees that the missile did in fact land in the parking lot.

But who cares about fact checking or evidence when there's an opportunity to demonize the Zionist dogs?

I posted the story as reported by Al-Jazeera, New York Times, Associated Press, and Reuters. I did include the Israeli counter-claim (which was also part of the stories.) I understand that, six days later, there is more information, and thank you for providing it! I'm sure as time progresses there will be even more. But at the time, I was going by the reporting that was current. That is to say, Al, that on October 18, 2023, I posted the facts, as they were currently understood.

if I wanted to "demonize the Zionist dogs," I would just talk about Zionism. There's no need to do whatever hoop-jumps and nefarious skulduggery you seem to imagine I'm doing by posting current news stories from mainstream sources.

At any rate, thank you for the update on the story.

[Oniya]

This is your periodic reminder that X/Twitter and Facebook are flaming dumpsters as far as reliability.  Elon has gutted the 'Trust and Safety' department at X/Twitter, and the blue check-mark only means that someone is forking over a monthly fee to make their posts look more legit.  Facebook really isn't much better.

As a result, using a tweet or a Facebook post as a source can be very risky.  Bad actors will re-caption videos and images, present clips out of context, or pretend to be 'journalists'.  The posts they make will tug at all of your preconceived ideas about what's going on, enrage you, and urge you to spread their message.

Don't fall for it.  Especially if the post you're about to quote confirms all the terrible things, and especially if 'no one else dares to show this'.  Many news sites include Fact Checking pages these days.  Reuters has one.  So do CNN and AP News.  You can also take matters into your own hands.  If someone claims to be a journalist, Google their names.  Look for their byline.  Check the news outlet they claim to work for to see if they even show up there.  Use TinEye to verify stills (something uploaded in 2021 can't be something that happened this week.)

The rules around Elliquiy cover all the forums. This means - being civil, polite and respectful of participants is just as important in discourses as it would be in a social thread.  Be aware of what you post and how it is phrased so that it is less likely to seem confrontational.  If you spot a false claim, feel free to notify Staff of the specific claim (especially if multiple points are raised in the post you are reporting).  If you have a link to a fact-check site, that's also awesome - it saves us having to search through the proliferating B.S.

Please do not take the bait and rather let staff handle the matter in order to keep the threads civil and respectful towards everyone.  This message is not intended as a 'gotcha' moment.  It should not be used as a 'gotcha' moment.  This is a reminder that we are all human, and all fallible.

[Al Terego]

I posted the story as reported by Al-Jazeera, New York Times, Associated Press, and Reuters. I did include the Israeli counter-claim (which was also part of the stories.) I understand that, six days later, there is more information, and thank you for providing it! I'm sure as time progresses there will be even more. But at the time, I was going by the reporting that was current. That is to say, Al, that on October 18, 2023, I posted the facts, as they were currently understood.

No, you didn't.  Allow me to quote:

Israel bombed al-Ahli baptist hospital in Gaza, killing at least 500. Of course Israel has blamed this on a "misfired rocket from Islamic Jihad," which the group denies. Well they should because it's a frankly absurd claim, especially when you consider that Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari also claims that "there was no direct hit" and the strike "a kind of hit in the parking lot." Doctors Without Borders disagrees.

Israel bombed al-Ahli baptist hospital in Gaza, killing at least 500
Claim by Hamas presented as fact.

Of course Israel has blamed this on a "misfired rocket from Islamic Jihad," which the group denies. Well they should because it's a frankly absurd claim, especially when you consider that Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari also claims that "there was no direct hit" and the strike "a kind of hit in the parking lot."
Counterclaim by Israel (supported by evidence) dismissed out of hand as "absurd".

You did not "posted the facts", you pushed a narrative.
No amount of backpedalling will change that.