Please explain to me: Jesse Lee Peterson and Kenneth Copeland

[Beorning]

Recently, while browsing YT, I found a debate between Dave Farina and a pastor named Jesse Lee Peterson. And... wow. I was stunned by the things this pastor was saying.

Question to Americans here: just who is this Jesse Lee Peterson guy? He seems to be an African-American pastor... with white supremacist views? He certainly seems to be believe that there's no racism in the US. He even says that pre-Civil War slavery wasn't racist... Huh?

And speaking of pastors: guys, Kenneth Copeland. How come this guy has any followers at all? Seeing some videos of him, he clearly is either a huckster, or a mentally disturbed individual. And yet, if I understand correctly, he has a whole crowd of people giving him money..?

[GloomCookie]

I'm not a historian, but I grew up with a friend who was all about the Civil War and is an actual historian of Civil War history currently at a university in Texas. He and I routinely discussed the civil war, and I can tell you this much: The civil war was about racism and slavery.

Slavery has existed before and after the American civil war, but the American version of chattel slavery was a bit different in that most of the slaves came from a single source and they were treated primarily as property. Roman slavery had people of all races from throughout the Empire, but many of those slaves enjoyed personal freedoms and even friendships with their owners, and were regarded as integral members of the household. American slavery was all about maximizing profit and that meant breaking up families and selling them off, even after the US and Britain banned the Atlantic slave trade.

The reason that slavery lasted as long as it did was in part due to the cotton gin. Most slaves prior to 1794 were used for the time-consuming process of taking combs and sifting through the cotton fibers, or were used in the lucrative tobacco growing plantations. As the industrial revolution kicked off and cotton became the cash crop of choice, the cotton gin made processing large amounts of cotton easier than ever, which was considered a huge boon for the growing industries of New England and Europe. New English banks financed the investments of southern plantation owners who would use said money to purchase 'equipment' which yes, included slaves. Coupled with an unhealthy dose of divine righteousness and racism, and it wasn't hard for most southerners to believe that slaves deserved their place as slaves.

I'm not going to get into the specifics of the civil war because that's an entirely different discussion, but following the war, it wasn't uncommon for blacks to have some representation, only for it to be quashed under a deal in 1877 (just 12 years after the war) to get President Rutherford B. Hayes into the white house if the Republicans would end reconstruction in the south. The second this deal was struck, Jim Crow laws flew (pun intended) through state legislatures, some a variation of the old slave codes just with the word slave scratched out to say black. This was further reinforced in 1896 with the Supreme Court's Plessy v. Ferguson, which allowed segregation as long as it was "separate but equal" (spoiler, it wasn't).

So what you had in the three decades following the civil war was blacks gaining a brief touch of freedom only to have it once more crushed. Most blacks had little in the way of personal property, literally tossed out the door with the clothes on their backs and told to get lost. Some, in desperation, would take up share cropping, which is where they were given a plot of land to rent that they paid for in crops to the landlord. In essence, they were right back to working on the plantations, just with the ability (if they could afford it) to leave if the deal didn't work out. In practice of course, this just meant most black families had to work on these sharecropper farms and rarely had enough to ever get anywhere.

Some of these conditions ended during the New Deal, when the federal government started to pay landlords to leave parts of their fields to fallow, which was often just enough to justify booting the blacks off the land and making them move to cities to find work. As blacks were forced off their land, they moved to places like Detroit, Michigan and the Bronx in New York City. Here, conditions weren't terribly better but with factory work, they could at least earn cash money instead of having to work to sustain land. World War II saw a need for factory workers and soldiers, though most blacks weren't allowed to fight on the front lines and instead were in support roles like cooks and other menial labor.

After the war, as the United States went through a post-war boom, many blacks were still stuck in inner city ghettos as White Flight became an issue with the growing suburban housing. Tired of their situation, many blacks joined the Civil Rights Movement, with figures like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, and Rosa Parks. Despite being a champion of civil rights, President John F. Kennedy's assassination, along with political leverage by now President Lyndon B. Johnson, helped get the Civil Rights Act of 1964 through Congress. Between that and the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court Case helped overturn segregation and forced southern states to rewrite many Jim Crow laws, though that was often easier said than done.

Even while the rest of the country seemed to be moving in the right direction, there was still a lot of opposition. In 1964, a bus full of protesters was set on fire in Mississippi, killing 3. 1957 had seen a massive protest over the Little Rock Nine as 9 black students were admitted to the Little Rock school district. And of course, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated in 1968.

And then there's more modern protests and riots as a result of racism. The Rodney King Riots ripped through Los Angeles, CA in 1992, along with the numerous protests following the death of George Floyd in 2020.

So I don't know where Jesse Lee Peterson is coming from. The US has a long and complicated history with racism and it is probably the best it's ever been right now, so trying to claim that things were somehow better in pre-Civil War America is a joke. No doubt he's getting paid a lot of money by the same people who support Justice Clarence Thomas for his views that led to striking down affirmative action.

[Azy]

I have no idea who this particular person is, but I have seen black people promote white supremacist ideas on social media.  The most well known is Kanye West becoming very pro Hitler.  I'm wondering if mental health isn't at play here.   

I mean....  If you do look at slavery in the ancient world, it was less about race, and more who that particular empire conquered.  Rome built an empire all through Europe and parts of the Middle East, and they did take slaves from everywhere.  Egypt had Hebrews enslaved for a while, and they were of very similar heritage.  That was more like hey look, nomadic people we can round up for free labor! 

Then somehow when Europeans went colonial it did become about race.  They saw themselves as more civilized than the darker skinned people they took control of, so of course that meant they were superior.     

[Beorning]

Here's a Wikipedia page on J.L. Peterson:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Lee_Peterson

Here's the YT video I first encountered him in:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVG1dNygOgA

I really would like to understand what's going on in this guy's mind... How could a Black American (from the South!) end up having such views?

[Chulanowa]

Recently, while browsing YT, I found a debate between Dave Farina and a pastor named Jesse Lee Peterson. And... wow. I was stunned by the things this pastor was saying.

Question to Americans here: just who is this Jesse Lee Peterson guy? He seems to be an African-American pastor... with white supremacist views? He certainly seems to be believe that there's no racism in the US. He even says that pre-Civil War slavery wasn't racist... Huh?

I don't know about Peterson in particular, but this is a pretty common thing among nonwhites in the US who hold generally "right-wing" views. Most of the right-wingers in this country are also white people who hold white supremacist outlooks; right-wing nonwhites are generally well outnumbered. So there's an element of "going along to get along." But in some cases - and I suspect this is the deal with Peterson - there's actually a good career to be made on this.

You see there's something about white supremacists; they fucking love when nonwhites say their shit for them. They love it more than they love watching drab blonde women stroll through a wheat field. They eat that shit up; and it's kind of a unique thing to white supremacists as far as i can tell, if some white guy starts spouting Hotepery, the Hoteps are just going to think he's a dumbfuck. But get a black dude yelling Klan slogans and all the dudes in pointy white hoods have a new best friend.   

And there is money to be made in this. because these dudes not only love to see a black person "affirming" their beliefs" They love having such a fellow around just so they can go "Not me, I'm not racist at all, look at my black friend, and how much he agrees with me!" They will pay you top dollar to come to their events and just fucking be there so that there is some melanin in the photographs.

At least, so long as you nod and smile and keep agreeing with them of course; the white supremacists aren't appreciating the Jesse Petersons as individuals, but instead as props. But, so long as you're willing ot trade dignity for dollars, it's lucrative I guess. 

And speaking of pastors: guys, Kenneth Copeland. How come this guy has any followers at all? Seeing some videos of him, he clearly is either a huckster, or a mentally disturbed individual. And yet, if I understand correctly, he has a whole crowd of people giving him money..?

Oh boy. How to explain televangelists to a non-American... I mean I dunno, maybe Poland has these donkeys too?

So. You might be aware that in the 50's through the 70's, there was a strong "counter-cultural" movement in the US; Hippies were just the tip of that iceberg, but are the most readily accessible example. Basically a lot of Americans were re-examining their beliefs and the direction things were headed, and all sorts of experiments to "fix things" were going on at the time. Part of this - and also in part a reaction to this, was Charismatic Evangelical revivalism. The "Jesus Movement" in particular was extremely influential, lending its beliefs in an extremely atomized, individualized and deeply supernatural religious experience to evangelism even to the modern day.

Which is where we come to televangelism.

Now to be clear, there's always been something of this sort; preachers were putting sermons out over radio almost as soon as radio was a thing. Sometimes it was done in (literal) good faith. Sometimes... sometimes it was Father Coughlin. But the point is, the idea of beaming a preacher right into your own living room was not all that new. What was new was the hyper-individualization of religious practice at the time, the sense of uncertainty and alienation from a lot of the audience, and - in particular with Charismatic Evangelism - the idea that a preacher could literally speak with god's voice.

"The spirit is upon me! Oh Lord!"

Now you take that, and you put it together with the Regan-Era consolidation of television media (and Reagan-era politics...) and the broad dissemination of cable and satellite TV in the 1980's? And you've got yourself a great fucking platform to get your batshit insane tent revival bullshit into a lot of living rooms.

And while you're there, why not pass around that collection plate, hmmm? Of course, if you're talking to tens of thousands of people, many of whom have already been isolated and groomed into what is basically a televised cult meeting... that collection plate is going to come back with a lot of cash in it. So whatever the original intent was - and maybe, JUST MAYBE the likes of Pat Robertson and Kenneth Copeland and Jimmy Swaggart were very earnest about trying to "spread the good word" when they started - it very soon becomes an extremely lucrative grift.

Especially since in the US we don't make religious organizations pay taxes.

Which leads to new guys getting into the grift, like the Bakkers or Joel Olsteen or any of these motherfuckers on the TV right now soaring on wires over their congregants...

[Azy]

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me for people to be against their own self interest.  It's along the same lines of women wanting abortion to be illegal.  It's an issue that could at some point effect them, and yet.... 

At the end of the day he's a man who got drawn into the Conservative swamp.  I don't know how or why any sane intelligent person could get drawn into that insane crap, but they're out there.  Yesterday I had to bite my tongue because some guy was saying Joe Biden isn't really President.  Obama rigged the election to put him in as a puppet and continue the same agenda.  And Trump was the best thing to ever happen to this county.  They're just told stuff and they believe it without question.   

[Oniya]

Televangelism, in the words of Phil Collins (recently covered effectively by a band called 'Ghost')

I'm counting my blessings,
I've found true happiness
Cause I'm getting richer, day by day
You can find me in the phone book,
Just call my toll free number
You can do it anyway you want
Just do it right away

There'll be no doubt in your mind
You'll believe everything I'm saying
If you wanna get closer to him
Get on your knees and start paying

Jesus, He Knows Me - Genesis version (released in the 80s, does have a couple of child actors and clothed T&A)

Ghost version (warning, depictions of drug use, prostitution, and there's one scene near the end, just after the lyrics quoted above, that is sexually graphic.  Don't watch this one around the kiddies.)

[Chulanowa]

Here's a Wikipedia page on J.L. Peterson:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Lee_Peterson

Here's the YT video I first encountered him in:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVG1dNygOgA

I really would like to understand what's going on in this guy's mind... How could a Black American (from the South!) end up having such views?

Also, wow, from the Wikipedia article:

In 2015 on right-wing commentator Sean Hannity's show, Peterson defended Michael Slager, a white former North Charleston, South Carolina police officer who killed Walter Lamar Scott, an unarmed black man by shooting him in the back. Peterson criticized "angry black folks in this country" who disobey instructions of police, while Hannity pushed back against Peterson and called the killing "cold-blooded".

Imagine being too big of a piece of shit for Sean Hannity.

[Missy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2tLyqfJd54&t=200s

As fro the specific example provided here, I've long since learned not to trust people to behave intelligently and in their own best interest over ideology. Just look at Ernst Rohm, of course the truth is people like Clarence Thomas and this Peterson person you've mentioned would ultimately end the same way if we allowed the Fascists to take over.

[Chulanowa]

"Mmm hmm, get those pants!"  XD

[HannibalBarca]

I don't know if the term is known in Poland, but look up what an Uncle Tom is, Beorning.  History is filled with these sort of quisling-type people--and Quisling himself is another example.

[Vekseid]

For some of these I think it's brain damage. They often aren't very coherent.

[Esoterica]

Well I hope I do not offend any Christians by saying this, but I grew up in the Charismatic Christian movement. Kind of graduated into other things, and they had a doctrine called the Prosperity Gospel.

They teach that basically a part of your income belongs to 'God' and with the church as Gods representative on earth, giving that income to the church in gods name is an obligation.

They teach that those with wealth are blessed by God, and you will never be blessed with prosperity unless you give to the church, or the movement.

They teach a lot of other things I find over the top now, and I feel that making a show, and making it entertaining, is something that comes out of having it on tv. Who is going to watch a church show if it isn't fun after all?

Some of these pastors on television have ridiculous homes that may as well be large cities, its ridiculous. Think of all the poor people they could house and feed if not for their greed.

[TheGlyphstone]

I don't think any genuine Christian will be upset by you talking smack about Prosperity Gospel. It really is a sickening way to exploit people's faith, particularly in how they prey on the ones who are already struggling. They outright tell you that if the choice is between paying essential bills like heat/rent/food or tithing to your church, the church's obligations come before your lesser needs.

[Laughing Hyena]

John Oliver did an entire episode just on televangelists describing this exploitation of faith. Still quite relevant even if seed faith seemed utterly exposed to be ludicrous. He puts it so well in one sentence.

"It's pretty clear that she cannot hear the voice of God or he'd be screaming "FUCK YOU GLORIA!" right in her ear!"

[TheGlyphstone]

Our Lady Of Perpetual Exemption still cracks me up.

[GloomCookie]

A lot of churches preach about tithing, in which you're expected to give 10% of your income to the church. There's a story on YouTube about a wealthy grandma who was going to double tithe to her church on her death, but when they treated her badly, she sent it to another church. The two churches were in a feud because one practiced the Social Gospel and the other practiced the True Gospel. I don't know what the difference is, but it's like, these guys up and abandoned you and only spoke to you when they thought they'd get money.

It feels way too much like the Catholic practice of Indulgences back in the day, and how for the right price you could buy a ticket out of hell. I understand churches need money to operate, but it's rather shocking how much money they do have to spend.

[Oniya]

Historically, the 'Social Gospel' movement was a Protestant movement interested in improving social issues through Christianity.  Things like the YMCA, and Chicago's 'Hull House' are examples of institutions derived from that movement, where the idea was that if you could improve people's quality of living, you would also improve their moral qualities.  They were quite active in getting child labor laws enacted, as well as required education, and some groups worked with the unions to promote fair treatment and hours for workers. 

It's been on a wavering decline since the 1940s, with a bit of a perk-up in the civil rights movement, but a further decline as a force in churches after 1980. 

Probably the most recognized catchphrase to sum up the 'Social Gospel' mindset is 'What would Jesus do?'

As for the 'True Gospel' - well, I've never seen a single group that claimed their 'gospel' wasn't the 'true' one, so I can't help you much there.