D&D 3.5 Campaign Seeks Players [NC, Extreme, Plot]

[ShadowOfHeaven]

On that note...would you consider relaxing or altering the entry requirements for the Blackguard PrC? I'd like to keep it open as an option for ifwhen hanging around all these evil people gets me by the short and curlies, but I really don't like having to effectively waste one and a half of my precious feats (Improved Sunder is the most god-awful feat for a PC in existence, and Cleave is useless 90% of the time and only mildly useful the other 10%) just to keep a future possibility available.

I definitely do not want to change requirements for PrC, but I would be willing to adjust the rules on the way those feats actually function. A lot of the game mechanics don't make sense, and I'm willing to adapt.

However, that said, I'd like to remind everyone in general that the game mechanics are a vehicle for the story. This is game that is going to be focused on roleplay. The rules exist to create structure and enjoyment, not to be the focus of debate. You should enter into this being comfortable with the idea of your character not being super powerful and also be comfortable with the idea of that character dying. This story will eventually end no matter what. Our goal is to create memorable moments between then and now.

[Kythia]

What?  You have some moral objection to sundering what's probably the enemies best loot?

Yeah, this. Improved Sunder is awsome for baddies, which is what I suspect the Blackguard was meant to be. Even more annoing than Rust monsters

[TheGlyphstone]

What?  You have some moral objection to sundering what's probably the enemies best loot?

I have an extreme objection to sundering the enemy's best loot, because when we win, that would have become our best loot. But now it's useless junk - and if one item makes the difference between being able to beat someone or not, then you're probably outclassed and shouldn't be fighting them in the first place.

However, that said, I'd like to remind everyone in general that the game mechanics are a vehicle for the story. This is game that is going to be focused on roleplay. The rules exist to create structure and enjoyment, not to be the focus of debate. You should enter into this being comfortable with the idea of your character not being super powerful and also be comfortable with the idea of that character dying. This story will eventually end no matter what. Our goal is to create memorable moments between then and now.

That's why I'm asking, really - I hate having to choose between mechanics and roleplaying, but effectively giving up two feats for the sake of potential future story is a severe mechanical loss, as well as making it more likely I'll die and be unable to pursue that future story. Power Attack is awesome,  Core Cleave is thematically appropriate, if mechanically bad (Pathfinder's Cleave is actually kinda useful, basically Rapid Shot for melee), but Improved Sunder is both completely out of context (why does a corrupted servant of the gods need proficiency in breaking things?) and one of the tactically worst feats for a PC - it's meant for NPCs like Kythia suggests.

Swapping it for something like Improved Initiative or Quick Draw - a generic good-for-anyone feat - would be the best option, since it represents the smallest alteration to the rules (changing a prerequisite > houseruling a new version of the feat).

[yesiroleplay]

I have an extreme objection to sundering the enemy's best loot, because when we win, that would have become our best loot. But now it's useless junk - and if one item makes the difference between being able to beat someone or not, then you're probably outclassed and shouldn't be fighting them in the first place.
That's why I'm asking, really - I hate having to choose between mechanics and roleplaying, but effectively giving up two feats for the sake of potential future story is a severe mechanical loss, as well as making it more likely I'll die and be unable to pursue that future story. Power Attack is awesome,  Core Cleave is thematically appropriate, if mechanically bad (Pathfinder's Cleave is actually kinda useful, basically Rapid Shot for melee), but Improved Sunder is both completely out of context (why does a corrupted servant of the gods need proficiency in breaking things?) and one of the tactically worst feats for a PC - it's meant for NPCs like Kythia suggests.

Paladin with bright new shiny Holy Avenger (obviously not adamantine) "Die, Infidel!"
Blackguard: riposte, parry, sunder.  "Oops, my bad."  evil grin.

[TheGlyphstone]

Paladin with bright new shiny Holy Avenger (obviously not adamantine) "Die, Infidel!"
Blackguard: riposte, parry, sunder.  "Oops, my bad."  evil grin.

See? It's not meant for PCs - if your Blackguard was a PC, he would kill the Paladin, loot the Holy Avenger, and sell it for cash to buy himself something useful (an Unholy Avenger, for example). It's a negative-sum feat, giving no benefit to the user and penalizing the target.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Improved sunder is kick ass when you face foes who do not use uber magical weapons. Say sticks, wooden shafted weapons etc. Also somecases you cannot sell the loot (also; would a blackguard sell holy avenger which could serve cause of good another day and face another hero wanna be with it? Better destroy or corrupt said artifact).

Also improved sunder can work other cases like severing head of a hydra, or sever tentacles, sever armor belt straps (and note; easy to repair and does not damage a weapon) to make it fall apart (and get nude view of female paladin without breastplate). Improve sunder vs mage's wand (wand is useful someone else in your party but what blackguard cares for another party members? LE one would prefer destroy mage's wand and strip it's only offensive spell spam method).

Improved sunder can be applied other situations than just 'sunder held weapon'. Of course it's situational but these pop up regularly often enough that able break things without AoO is nice.

Or my group house ruling; you can try sunder foe's arms (or legs) instead weapon if you want to with improved sunder but it's harder than try breaking a weapon because HP needed to breach through to mutilate a foe.

[TheGlyphstone]

Improved sunder is kick ass when you face foes who do not use uber magical weapons. Say sticks, wooden shafted weapons etc. Also somecases you cannot sell the loot (also; would a blackguard sell holy avenger which could serve cause of good another day and face another hero wanna be with it? Better destroy or corrupt said artifact).

So sell it to an evil temple (for half its market value) that will use it in a corrupting ritual...I didn't say sell it at the Magic Mart.

If your enemies have non-magical weapons and you do, you outclass them to where letting them keep their stuff while you kill them won't hurt. A feat that's only good for 2 levels...isn't a good feat.

Also improved sunder can work other cases like severing head of a hydra, or sever tentacles, sever armor belt straps (and note; easy to repair and does not damage a weapon) to make it fall apart (and get nude view of female paladin without breastplate). Improve sunder vs mage's wand (wand is useful someone else in your party but what blackguard cares for another party members? LE one would prefer destroy mage's wand and strip it's only offensive spell spam method).

-I'll give you the hydra, but that's the only situation where you would want to sunder.
-Cutting people's clothing off is a nice idea in Japanese manga/anime sex comedies, but if you're actually fighting for your life against a dangerous enemy, you should have bigger priorities than clothing damage (ignoring the fact that said paladin would probably have a shirt on underneath). While this is going to be an erotic/extreme game, I do not get the feeling at all that it's meant to be a humorous one...and I don't want it to be, that would spoil the mood.
-A blackguard who doesn't care about his party members' needs is a very short-lived blackguard, because there are more of them than him and he can't keep his back to a wall 24/7. Evil doesn't have to mean 'ignore everyone but yourself', it means 'You are Number One' - Evil people can have allies and even friends. And what better way to piss off the party wizard, who has 9001 ways to make a melee-warrior like you suffer horribly, than breaking his loot?
-If a wizard is spamming spells from a wand...he's a bad wizard and should die (or he's out of prepared spells, either case means he is no longer a threat). For that matter, any defenses a wizard puts up versus melee attacks will affect his gear, so if you can even try to sunder his stuff in the first place, sunder him instead, and by sunder I mean chop in half.

Improved sunder can be applied other situations than just 'sunder held weapon'. Of course it's situational but these pop up regularly often enough that able break things without AoO is nice.

You don't need Improved Sunder to use the Sunder action, it just removes the AoO. And sundering an enemy's non-weapon gear is an even worse idea than sundering their weapons, because it also reduces your loot while not affecting their ability to kill you as much.

Or my group house ruling; you can try sunder foe's arms (or legs) instead weapon if you want to with improved sunder but it's harder than try breaking a weapon because HP needed to breach through to mutilate a foe.

Eewww, called shots. :-\

[Zaer Darkwail]

Eewww, called shots. :-\

C'mon! Don't tell me you are still uneasy about get your shiny plate splattered in gore even after you became blackguard?

(would consider it funny/ironic idea)

Anyways blackguards are destroyers and so improved sunder makes sense for them even if it penalisizes loot wise. There is combat brute feat which allows you to sunder and use sunder attack immediately upon target who's weapon, shield or item you just broke (so you can cleave the weapon and the guy in half in single swing). Of course another way go about sundering loot is that broken magic weapons are easier to repair.

[TheGlyphstone]

C'mon! Don't tell me you are still uneasy about get your shiny plate splattered in gore even after you became blackguard?

(would consider it funny/ironic idea)

Anyways blackguards are destroyers and so improved sunder makes sense for them even if it penalisizes loot wise. There is combat brute feat which allows you to sunder and use sunder attack immediately upon target who's weapon, shield or item you just broke (so you can cleave the weapon and the guy in half in single swing). Of course another way go about sundering loot is that broken magic weapons are easier to repair.

I think you're still missing the original point (though I continue to disagree that Sundering is ever a good idea - Combat Brute just means you only lose loot instead of lose loot and waste a turn). A Blackguard can sunder - there might even be times when he wants to sunder. But being exceptionally proficient at breaking stuff makes no sense as something that all Blackguards know, and in fact must know before they can become Blackguards. When Sir Goldenpants the Devout has his faith broken by the need to sacrifice a baby to stop a demon invasion, the first Pit Fiend lucky enough to run across him ripe for recruitment isn't going to turn him away from becoming a dark warrior of legend because he's not well-versed in breaking swords in half. If you want to play a Destroyer/wrecking-ball Blackguard, take Improved Sunder (and may the DM have mercy on your soulWBL) - but it doesn't make thematic sense to be mandatory.

[yesiroleplay]

Glyph...
please don't feed the troll.

[TheGlyphstone]

Glyph...
please don't feed the troll.

That's mean. I've gamed with Zaer before, I don't think he's trying to troll. He's wrong, but he's not trolling. :D

[yesiroleplay]

I am a mean person.  I can play a sweetheart in role play, but fundamentally I'm a bitch.
Frankly, I don't care if I hurt someone's feelings if they spew pollution into a thread I was enjoying up to that point.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Glyph...
please don't feed the troll.

??!!

This is first time I am called a troll :P. I find it rather insulting as I am trying to show honestly good points in improved sunder and why it's there.

Anyways if you question why paladin should even know improved sunder before becoming blackguard then explain intimidate and hide skill ranks (religion ranks are obvious but both intimidate and hide are cross class skills needed to become a blackguard). Overall prequisites are prequisites for a reason. Feats are 'feat taxes' what you must take enter PrC, even if feats are those which you never plan to use. I usually think it from point 'is this PrC worth to take even if I waste feat while doing so?'. For a ex-paladin there are three ways; progress in other class, seek redemption to get powers back or fall down from grace and enter class which negates and actually benefits from your loss of paladin status.

Of course you can talk with GM and ask for feat change but he said already 'no' for it (and usually it is game over for said subject if you do not convince GM otherwise or bribe him).

That's mean. I've gamed with Zaer before, I don't think he's trying to troll. He's wrong, but he's not trolling. :D

Thanks, I do not mean to argue either in above but just hold discussion about the subject! It's what most DnD geeks do anyway; argue about some finer points of gaming but we both can agree in end that we agree to disagree on subject ;).

I am a mean person.  I can play a sweetheart in role play, but fundamentally I'm a bitch.
Frankly, I don't care if I hurt someone's feelings if they spew pollution into a thread I was enjoying up to that point.

Can you then explain in detail what 'pollution' I am actually spreading?! Honestly, tell me so I know what way I ruffled feathers with you so I can learn.

[yesiroleplay]

I  can't explain my position without insulting you even more than I have.
I'm going to drop this discussion now, as I don't think anything good can come of it.

[TheGlyphstone]

Anyways if you question why paladin should even know improved sunder before becoming blackguard then explain intimidate and hide skill ranks (religion ranks are obvious but both intimidate and hide are cross class skills needed to become a blackguard). Overall prequisites are prequisites for a reason. Feats are 'feat taxes' what you must take enter PrC, even if feats are those which you never plan to use. I usually think it from point 'is this PrC worth to take even if I waste feat while doing so?'. For a ex-paladin there are three ways; progress in other class, seek redemption to get powers back or fall down from grace and enter class which negates and actually benefits from your loss of paladin status.

I really can't argue with this a whole lot, because it's mostly true - the Blackguard prestige requirements are just a huge pile of screwed up. But skill ranks are at least 'cheaper' than feats...you get a lot of skill ranks and even at cross-class prices they're not bad.

I am a mean person.  I can play a sweetheart in role play, but fundamentally I'm a bitch.
Frankly, I don't care if I hurt someone's feelings if they spew pollution into a thread I was enjoying up to that point.

It lets me present my arguments where SoH can see them, though, since he's the one I have to convince to swap out the craptastic feat. But if it's bothering you, I've pretty much run out of stuff to say on the topic anyways.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I  can't explain my position without insulting you even more than I have.
I'm going to drop this discussion now, as I don't think anything good can come of it.

I am rather resilient what comes regards to insults, and I welcome a constructive feedback over 'you just suck'. And I feel more insulted, and more hurt, if person who says 'you suck!' does not give me any explanation why they think so. In my RL I have faced this sort behavior twice and each time it has left me more haunted than hundreds of insults which were explained to me or why person disliked me.

So, going silent about the matter is doing disservice towards me. If you do not want hold this discussion public PM it to me. As we may (and likely will) RP together in same game its better discuss this than leave it buried and rot somewhere until it pops up ten times uglier result.

If insults are related to my writing or grammar; just note I have dyslexia (and not saying it as excuse but as a fact) and english being second language to me.

[Kythia]

Goddamn [ you ] tag.

Every single time I fall for it.  Literally, every single time.  Why the hell has he made us a thread?  Better click on it.


Every.Single. Time.

[yesiroleplay]

Goddamn [ you ] tag.

Every single time I fall for it.  Literally, every single time.  Why the hell has he made us a thread?  Better click on it.


Every.Single. Time.

hehe.  I swear my mouse crawls to links on its own.

[Kythia]

Just as a heads up, that excuse doesn't work in the office.

[TheGlyphstone]

So confused. Is there a chargen thread?

[Kythia]

Zaer's sig

[TheGlyphstone]

Oh, okay.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Goddamn [ you ] tag.

Every single time I fall for it.  Literally, every single time.  Why the hell has he made us a thread?  Better click on it.


Every.Single. Time.

Gotcha  >:)

I fell to same link a year ago, since then I added it to my sign as it is a running joke/prank in E.

[ShadowOfHeaven]

Play nice, or it's the hole for the lot of you.

[yesiroleplay]

Play nice, or it's the hole for the lot of you.

Which hole are we talking about?