Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)

[Love And Submission]

How do you deal with the fact that your family  aren't...okay people? It's hard as someone like myself to deal with the fact that my grandfather worked at a factory. He only graduated highschool. He did nothing  with life and I look back and I bring it up conversation with my mother that maybe he could have set a better example for her and she gets mad and I don't get why. He was not good at all. He did nothing with his life. He worked in a factory his whole life and so did he wife.  He wasn't even like supervisor.




He didn't read. He  never volunteered for anything . He was an uncultured...degenerate essentially. He wasn't a drunk and didn't beat his wife but he did nothing good. He just existed and he wasn't a good dad because I said to her , Did you dad ever tell you to go college and tell you to make something and he didn't. My mom went to work at 16. That's pathetic and she worked at a factory. Thankfully during my childhood she bettered herself and went to work at a hospital but I mean this family is a bunch of losers.  They don't own business. They don't have degrees. They're not good people and it's hard for me to deal with that and know how to talk about them without sounding like I dislike them...because I do.

They're just losers. They did nothing for anyone. Not even their kids.  It's sad and I find it annoying that she doesn't find at sad. She thinks it okay that this guy just did nothing with his life. Just had  two kids and a wife and went to work for minimum wage in a factory and then died in his 60s. Jesus Christ. That's  harrowing and she has no problem with that.


They were all terrible people too. Not just my grandfather. My Grandfather and Grandmother had like eight brothers and sisters a piece and they did nothing. I don't have one great uncle who like climbed a mountain or became a mayor or a doctor or anything. They just popped more awful children and went to work for minimum wage.  Nobody in this family for literal generations had done anything to make the world  a better place or ease the suffering of others. They just did nothing and it drives me crazy. You would think...one of them  would like go to college or  open a soup kitchen or work at the ASPCA. NO! None of them. They are all just losers.

Nothing good came from there existence. No donations to charity , no running a mile for cancer , no inventing the can opener. Just nothing. Didn't even fight in any wars. They just came and  didn't do anything of note.


I can't stand them. I really don't like them and I don't know how to deal with it. They're just failures. That's the only word for it. They didn't do anything worth a damn at all and I don't know how to reconcile with the fact that I should feel bad when bad stuff happens to them or feel bad that like  seventy five percent of them are dead. Honestly , The difference between them being dead or alive is nill. They did nothing! Nothing at all! Nothing. Not a single thing in their life that was important. Didn't  read my mother Shakespear or take her to a play or leave her a small fortune or  paint! I would take a painter at this point. You don't have to be a good painter. Just paint impressionism and you'd be  the best person in my family for at least three generations.


Oh god. I had to vent. It's just so bad. They are like worthless.

Edit:  It might seem harsh but it's the truth. Not one college graduate in multiple generations. No Authors , No Musicians , No Scientist  Generation after generation   of nobodies.

[Iniquitous]

How do you deal with the fact that your family  aren't...okay people? It's hard as someone like myself to deal with the fact that my grandfather worked at a factory. He only graduated highschool. He did nothing  with life and I look back and I bring it up conversation with my mother that maybe he could have set a better example for her and she gets mad and I don't get why. He was not good at all. He did nothing with his life. He worked in a factory his whole life and so did he wife.  He wasn't even like supervisor.




He didn't read. He  never volunteered for anything . He was an uncultured...degenerate essentially. He wasn't a drunk and didn't beat his wife but he did nothing good. He just existed and he wasn't a good dad because I said to her , Did you dad ever tell you to go college and tell you to make something and he didn't. My mom went to work at 16. That's pathetic and she worked at a factory. Thankfully during my childhood she bettered herself and went to work at a hospital but I mean this family is a bunch of losers.  They don't own business. They don't have degrees. They're not good people and it's hard for me to deal with that and know how to talk about them without sounding like I dislike them...because I do.

They're just losers. They did nothing for anyone. Not even their kids.  It's sad and I find it annoying that she doesn't find at sad. She thinks it okay that this guy just did nothing with his life. Just had  two kids and a wife and went to work for minimum wage in a factory and then died in his 60s. Jesus Christ. That's  harrowing and she has no problem with that.


They were all terrible people too. Not just my grandfather. My Grandfather and Grandmother had like eight brothers and sisters a piece and they did nothing. I don't have one great uncle who like climbed a mountain or became a mayor or a doctor or anything. They just popped more awful children and went to work for minimum wage.  Nobody in this family for literal generations had done anything to make the world  a better place or ease the suffering of others. They just did nothing and it drives me crazy. You would think...one of them  would like go to college or  open a soup kitchen or work at the ASPCA. NO! None of them. They are all just losers.

Nothing good came from there existence. No donations to charity , no running a mile for cancer , no inventing the can opener. Just nothing. Didn't even fight in any wars. They just came and  didn't do anything of note.


I can't stand them. I really don't like them and I don't know how to deal with it. They're just failures. That's the only word for it. They didn't do anything worth a damn at all and I don't know how to reconcile with the fact that I should feel bad when bad stuff happens to them or feel bad that like  seventy five percent of them are dead. Honestly , The difference between them being dead or alive is nill. They did nothing! Nothing at all! Nothing. Not a single thing in their life that was important. Didn't  read my mother Shakespear or take her to a play or leave her a small fortune or  paint! I would take a painter at this point. You don't have to be a good painter. Just paint impressionism and you'd be  the best person in my family for at least three generations.


Oh god. I had to vent. It's just so bad. They are like worthless.

Edit:  It might seem harsh but it's the truth. Not one college graduate in multiple generations. No Authors , No Musicians , No Scientist  Generation after generation   of nobodies.

Oh wow. Im not sure what to say ..  or rather I wont say what I am thinking because your whole rant just offended me.

[AmberStarfire]

People have different values. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to say someone didn't do anything with their life with any accuracy, because you haven't walked in their shoes. Maybe your grandfather found value in what he did, and liked what he was doing. Maybe he didn't, but he worked in a factory to make ends meet. Any person out there will have their own hobbies and interests. Just because you don't see them as being of value, doesn't mean they didn't mean a great deal to him. Life doesn't always go in the direction you mean it to and while so many people have degrees today, nowhere near as many did back then. He probably had a lot of skills you don't, simply because they were things he was into or that were a part of life back then, but aren't now in the environment that you live in. He sounds like a hard working man.

I don't think it's possible that someone 'didn't do anything good' with their life. Everyone does good things, even if it's by chance or coincidence, but no one is all bad. He doesn't sound like a bad person, just as if he led life in his own way, but doing things that you don't find value in.

[Josietta]

Oh wow. Im not sure what to say ..  or rather I wont say what I am thinking because your whole rant just offended me.

+1

[Flower]

People have different values. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to say someone didn't do anything with their life with any accuracy, because you haven't walked in their shoes. Maybe your grandfather found value in what he did, and liked what he was doing. Maybe he didn't, but he worked in a factory to make ends meet. Any person out there will have their own hobbies and interests. Just because you don't see them as being of value, doesn't mean they didn't mean a great deal to him. Life doesn't always go in the direction you mean it to and while so many people have degrees today, nowhere near as many did back then. He probably had a lot of skills you don't, simply because they were things he was into or that were a part of life back then, but aren't now in the environment that you live in. He sounds like a hard working man.

I don't think it's possible that someone 'didn't do anything good' with their life. Everyone does good things, even if it's by chance or coincidence, but no one is all bad. He doesn't sound like a bad person, just as if he led life in his own way, but doing things that you don't find value in.

+1

[Tsenta]

Most factory jobs back in your grandparents' time...it was the only decent job a person could get. There weren't many options as there are now...so working their asses off in a factory to provide for their kids...IS a good thing.


OT: I'm just...done with mom. I was supposed to housesit for her and and uncle next week but...no gas money. Mom keeps going "We can use your emergency funds!" like it's a fucking magic method of cash.   No, mom. There ARE no emergency funds! You already OWE me $40! And I SPENT the emergency funds on groceries, to feed you!  THERE ARE NONE! WHERE AM I SUPPOSED TO PULL MONEY OUT OF? MY ASS!?

[Love And Submission]

Oh wow. Im not sure what to say ..  or rather I wont say what I am thinking because your whole rant just offended me.

Why? You are here. That implies that you write  and create and think. They didn't. It's not about hobbies and interest. It's about the benefit you are to society. I just want one person in family who was like. Who read  Sartre  and  Kierkegaard. This shouldn't be offensive. It shouldn't be wrong to have a quest for knowledge!

What if  MLK JR was like my grandfather or  Harvey Milk? and just went to work at a factory?  America would be worse off. It's not offensive to want a generation of MLK Jr's and Harvey Milk's. They were good people and there should be more of them. I'm sorry I want more Barack Obama's then factory workers. 


Edit:   Malcolm   X died at 39. His dad died when he was six and spent six years in prison yet despite that he did more then my grandfather did in six decades. Not everyone can be Malcolm X but what about a doctor or a lawye?

[Iniquitous]

Why? You are here. That implies that you write  and create and think. They didn't. It's not about hobbies and interest. It's about the benefit you are to society. I just want one person in family who was like. Who read  Sartre  and  Kierkegaard. This shouldn't be offensive. It shouldn't be wrong to have a quest for knowledge!

What if  MLK JR was like my grandfather or  Harvey Milk? and just went to work at a factory?  America would be worse off. It's not offensive to want a generation of MLK Jr's and Harvey Milk's. They were good people and there should be more of them. I'm sorry I want more Barack Obama's then factory workers.

Guess what. I didnt graduate high school - I received my GED. Guess what... I have never completed college. I work a crap job for crap pay. My family is full of blue collar workers who struggle to get by. There are no scientists,  no doctors, no lawyers, no activists in my family. I am the most open minded of my family and my daughter may well be the best educated IF she goes through with her plan for college.

I am offended because, according to you, those of us who bust our assess at crap jobs are worthless. Thank you for adding to my already shitty depression.

[Love And Submission]

Guess what. I didnt graduate high school - I received my GED. Guess what... I have never completed college. I work a crap job for crap pay. My family is full of blue collar workers who struggle to get by. There are no scientists,  no doctors, no lawyers, no activists in my family. I am the most open minded of my family and my daughter may well be the best educated IF she goes through with her plan for college.

I am offended because, according to you, those of us who bust our assess at crap jobs are worthless. Thank you for adding to my already shitty depression.

Sorry. I insulted you. I didn't mean you.

[Beguile's Mistress]

It was such a general statement, DTW.  Many families don't have the resources to further their education or the encouragement to do so either.  Yet somehow you are one of the results of those grandparents who lived and worked and died.  I never read Sartre or Kierkegaard and I'm a high school graduate but have no college on my resume.  In a way your post made me feel sad that your vision is limited.

[Valthazar]

Why? You are here. That implies that you write  and create and think. They didn't. It's not about hobbies and interest. It's about the benefit you are to society. I just want one person in family who was like. Who read  Sartre  and  Kierkegaard. This shouldn't be offensive. It shouldn't be wrong to have a quest for knowledge!

The United States' (and every other developed country in the world's) infrastructure is the result of millions upon millions of ordinary, hard-working people working minimum wage.  They are doing honest work, for hours on end, and you find this offensive?

I had to call my insurance company a few weeks ago due to an insurance claim.  The lady who picked up the phone was probably working for minimum wage, but she did her job so well, that I couldn't help but smile - and even wrote an email to my insurance company saying what a great job she did. 

If you want to rant about anyone, rant about those who are willfully unemployed.

[Nimmy]

Why? You are here. That implies that you write  and create and think. They didn't. It's not about hobbies and interest. It's about the benefit you are to society. I just want one person in family who was like. Who read  Sartre  and  Kierkegaard. This shouldn't be offensive. It shouldn't be wrong to have a quest for knowledge!

What if  MLK JR was like my grandfather or  Harvey Milk? and just went to work at a factory?  America would be worse off. It's not offensive to want a generation of MLK Jr's and Harvey Milk's. They were good people and there should be more of them. I'm sorry I want more Barack Obama's then factory workers. 


Edit:   Malcolm   X died at 39. His dad died when he was six and spent six years in prison yet despite that he did more then my grandfather did in six decades. Not everyone can be Malcolm X but what about a doctor or a lawye?

I have a Bachelor's, and I have no idea who the fuck Kierkegaard is, let alone what he wrote.

My oldest aunt on my mother's side has a nursing degree, the first one to get more education (my mother being the second, my youngest aunt being the third) in a long line of mill workers, and she turned out to be a leech who refuses to take responsibility for her actions. Education doesn't make someone a better or more worthwhile human being. My grandmother, high-school educated waitress and seamstress as she was to help support four kids, is worth far more than my aunt is.

[Aiden]

Not everyone can be a great musician or artist or great mind. I look at some of the "artist" of this generation and just roll my eyes.

Puking on a canvas does not make you an artist.
Shaking your ass on TV does not mean you are contributing to music.

I guess my views are exactly the opposite, we have too many "great" artist and musicians in a world, we could do with less.

I have been struggling with what I want to do with myself, career wise. To me, stability has always been the goal for me. I don't care if I don't climb a mountain or become "famous" for one reason or another. To me raising a family, getting married and being able to provide a roof over their head would be more than enough for me.

I have actually been looking into becoming a blue collar worker, I see nothing wrong with working a honest paying job and being a nobody.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Well, if you want to leave a legacy like that behind then do so yourself.  If this is the family that you wish to create for your offspring or the offspring of your family, then do so.  For you that might be something of value and something worthwhile to pursue.  I commend you on doing so.  Others do not have that option or they place something else over such things.  Perhaps your grandfather had dreams and aspirations once of being a soldier, a surgeon or maybe management.  Maybe he placed putting food on the table over putting himself and his family into risky situations.  There is also the possibility that he just wanted a quiet life of children and work, for some people that is enough.  If that is not enough for you, then go out there and find the life you want.  Don’t be angry at someone else for not doing so.

[cptBacon]

Yikes dude. I strongly think you should do a little more reflection on what it means to be a good person before you condemn your family members, or anybody in a similar situation for that matter. Having an impressive job title, an elite degree, or an abundance of wealth does not inherently make a good person. There is so much more to life and the pursuit of happiness than whether or not someone has a gilded business card. Some people are held back by lack of opportunity or fear of risk, and some are held back by lack of ability. Either way, those things don't make anybody a bad person.

Speaking anecdotally, I too come from a blue collar, manual labor family. One of my grandfathers spent most of his life as a poor farmer. Another was a drunk that wandered from one job to another and never had a dollar to his name. My dad spent almost all his life addicted to one substance or another, and my mom raised three boys as a single mother with a low paying government job.

I, on the other hand, have a degree in physics and astrophysics, work in a very lucrative tech job that pays me several times what any of my forebears make or have made, and I live very comfortably. I say that not to boast, but to drive home my point. By most measures, I'm a successful person. I feel like I'm a successful person. I do not, not even for a moment, feel like I'm better than my family or anyone else doing what they need to do to scrape by. The values and collective experiences of my family life mean much more to me than the new truck in my driveway or my air conditioned office, and those same values and experiences shaped me into the adult I've become. I feel like I owe everything to being poor.

I believe I know what it means to be a good person, and it's not determined by what any piece of paper says about someone. I hope you can discover that for yourself.

[Cycle]

They did do something.

Something valuable and important.

Something you owe, owe greatly, to an extent you can never repay.



They raised you.






The source of your anger is not them.  It is something else.  They are simply the lighting rod at this place and time.  Find that something else.  Cure it, address it, confront it.  Then the anger will dissipate.  That is the best advice I can give you.

[Shjade]

They did do something.

Something valuable and important.

Something you owe, owe greatly, to an extent you can never repay.



They raised you.

This, so much. Because frankly, if your existence (and your mother's, obviously) is a nothing accomplishment, that doesn't say much about you, does it? In which case, who are you to judge?

If everyone strove for greatness and only that, there'd be no infrastructure. Sometimes, pragmatism is more important than ambition.

[cptBacon]

If everyone strove for greatness and only that, there'd be no infrastructure.

I don't even think that's a binary state. One can still strive for excellence in what most would consider a menial job.

[Callie Del Noire]

Why? You are here. That implies that you write  and create and think. They didn't. It's not about hobbies and interest. It's about the benefit you are to society. I just want one person in family who was like. Who read  Sartre  and  Kierkegaard. This shouldn't be offensive. It shouldn't be wrong to have a quest for knowledge!

What if  MLK JR was like my grandfather or  Harvey Milk? and just went to work at a factory?  America would be worse off. It's not offensive to want a generation of MLK Jr's and Harvey Milk's. They were good people and there should be more of them. I'm sorry I want more Barack Obama's then factory workers. 


Edit:   Malcolm   X died at 39. His dad died when he was six and spent six years in prison yet despite that he did more then my grandfather did in six decades. Not everyone can be Malcolm X but what about a doctor or a lawye?

You take look at the pictures of the men and women behind the men you mentioned. The folks behind Milk, MLK and X. They were folks like your grandfather and grandmother. They followed or listened. Just because you DON'T see them in the lead doesn't mean the average man doesn't have a role in history. You might not think much of his deeds and life, but consider this.

If he hadn't walked the path he walked.. where would you be today? HIS actions shaped the life your mother lived. Set the course that your family walked.

I find it appallingly inconsiderate to simply dismiss the life he led because you under value it.

I love my brothers, and both of them love me. We walk different paths. My older brother was much smarter, and more importantly .. more organized than me, and it shows. He's a succesful lawyer and businessman, with a LOT of money to be made. He respects my choices in life and offers advice when I ask. His friends sneered at my service when I met them once. Their attitude was.. those who serve in the military don't have what it takes to make it in the 'real world'. Ditto for my comment that I'd like to teach. "Those who can't.. teach" was what one of them said.


This attitude that the life I (or your grandfather) led is less than what you'd do.. is disrespectful. Did he have the options you do? Think things through before you dismiss hard labor and honest (if poorly paying) work. Not everyone gets to be the president of a bank.

[Iniquitous]

Edit:  It might seem harsh but it's the truth. Not one college graduate in multiple generations. No Authors , No Musicians , No Scientist  Generation after generation   of nobodies.

On a side note - I can trace my family history on my father's side I am related to Ulysses S. Grant. I am related to Thomas Edison on my mother's side. That doesnt make ME special at all nor is it something I crow about. In fact, I look at as "I am related to a drunk and a thief. Who isn't?"

The fact you are snubbing your nose at your relatives because they aren't famous tells me that you have a lot of growing up to do. Even if you had someone famous in your geneology that has NO bearing on you. YOU have to earn the respect you crave. It is not handed out for free.

[Jefepato]

Not everyone can be Malcolm X but what about a doctor or a lawye?

I'm a lawyer.  I can assure you that I've contributed far less to society than any minimum-wage factory worker out there.

[Love And Submission]

People seem to really misunderstand what I'm saying.

My grandfather was not the man behind Malcolm X. That's what my mother told me. He went to work , came home and went out to play bingo. He didn't go to see  Malcolm speak when he spoke at a local college. He didn't write a letter to MLK JR. My Grandfather didn't protest the Vietnam War. He was a live in one of the most politically charged generations in american history and he didn't just refuse to take part in it . He didn't care. He didn't teach my mother about it. He didn't look to her and go "See this man. This man is MLK JR and he's a hero. He's fighting for the betterment of  our country and our world. Be like him" No. He just went to work and ignored that. He ignored the struggle of so many people. Why?

It's not about your job. It' s not about his job. It's about the fact that  he never read. Never.  No quest for knowledge.No interest in learning about Anne Frank and her struggle or Thoreau's theories on man.   He never helped my mother with her homework. Explained to her the world and the problems in it and what we could do as a people to solve those problems.

One of my heroes is Diogenes. Diogenes didn't have a job. He lived in a wind barrel but what he did have was intelligence. Wisdom. He sat in that wine barrel and preached. He tried to make the world a better place. Did it have an effect? No but he tried. I would not be harping on this man if he was a freedom rider. If he felt bad. Just felt bad and expressed those feelings to my mother or out loud but he never did. He never cared about the suffering of others in the world. He never stopped for a minute  to look at the horrors of Vietnam or Jim Crow or anything. No he ignored them and went to work.


He didn't vote.

Is that to much to ask of a man? To vote? To simply cast a decision to help the country? I don't care what way he voted. I just think he should vote. That he should feel someway responsible for his fellowman? Why does that make me the bad guy?



The money. The job tittle those are nothing to me.  Hell , He never told my mother to  better herself. To make  something of herself. To be better then him. He raised in a value of ignorance and never tried to open her world view. To explain our countries history to her.


Maybe I'm being unfair because I never really talked with the man but from what my mother has told me , he does not appear to be someone I  want to look up to.

[Blythe]

Giving you a benefit of a doubt here, because you did write the opening post as a rant, and rants are not always the best way to be able to state one's own opinions and feeling sometimes in a more sensible way. I don't think it's factory working or "blue-collar" jobs or things like that that were the focus of what upsets you.

I'd hazard what is upsetting you about your grandfather (and perhaps a lot of other members of your family) is that you view them as complacent when it comes to realizing their potential (and because you presumably believe everyone has potential to be more than just "ordinary"). They could have been many things, but they are not, and you find that frustrating, possibly because for many folk there is an innate drive to grow, to learn, to have opinions and be passionate, and you do not see many in your family as possessing any passion for life (being part of activism, charity, or in the pursuit of knowledge being various ways to show that passion), which is very demoralizing for you.

I can see why that might be frustrating...but you have to remember that your grandfather lived in a different time. There may be reasons you do not know for the choices he did make (even if you find those choices to be pedestrian or lacking in substance). There are individuals who wake up, work, build a family, and live in a small and very personal world. And it is not an inherently bad thing. Such people are the bulk of society, just people living their lives. Most of my dad's side of the family was rather like this, many of them being farmers who had little outside their experience except farming and little desire to move away from it (the few who did worked in factories and the like).

Having meaning in life is very subjective. Your grandfather (or other family members) may be happy with how their lives are and feel they have that purpose and passion. That might be why your mother doesn't really seem to "get" it; she is operating under a very different perspective than you. But if you feel they did not have that passion, let that inspire and motivate you to be that person in your family that stands up and does something that you feel to be great.

No matter how you think or feel about your family, be willing to be that person who steps up to make a difference. Be the person in your family that you would be proud to be.

(Also--sorry if this seems nonsensical to anyone or I have misinterpreted you, DTW. It's a little late at night for me, and I'm a bit groggy.)

[Valthazar]

There are some people on this forum who go to work, come home, and roleplay every evening away.  They don't go to see guest speakers at colleges, write letters to the president, or attend Occupy Wall Street / Tea Party rallies.  They just don't care, and don't teach their kids about this stuff either.  They may just go to work, pay taxes, and raise families without the intellectual stuff.

Why does that make them a loser or a failure?  So long as they are performing a role in society, how can we criticize them?

[Love And Submission]

On a side note - I can trace my family history on my father's side I am related to Ulysses S. Grant. I am related to Thomas Edison on my mother's side. That doesnt make ME special at all nor is it something I crow about. In fact, I look at as "I am related to a drunk and a thief. Who isn't?"

The fact you are snubbing your nose at your relatives because they aren't famous tells me that you have a lot of growing up to do. Even if you had someone famous in your geneology that has NO bearing on you. YOU have to earn the respect you crave. It is not handed out for free.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying him being famous would elevate me. What I'm saying is that I don't respect man who ignores a world that  is as miserable as ours. I struggle with the reality of this species everyday. The Wars , The Famines , The  Bigotry and I try my best to fix it. Whatever little I can do. I'm not claiming to be Mother Teresa or anything but I try. He didn't. He never did.  Not a single thing.

This isn't about a Job. This is about our responsibility as humans. My Grand Father sat idly by as nineteen year old kids were sent off to die alone in a foreign. Don't tell me that because I think that makes him a bad person , That I need to grow up.

My Grand Father sat idly by as people pelted MLK with rocks and bottles. Swore at him , spit on him and what he do? Nothing. He didn't even explain to his own daughter that that was wrong. That treating people differently because of the color of their skin was incorrect and you all want to paint him as some sort of hero?

He couldn't do anything? Anything at all?  I'm asking to much to except a man who brought  two other life into this world to teach them basic responsibility. That War and Oppression are wrong. That we should fight to better  not just ourselves but the world.

And I'm just looking at the 60s. He lived during the 70s ,  Women's Liberation and what he did do? What did he do for his daughter? Nothing. Let her get a job in a factory at seventy. In the 80s when AIDS plagued the gay community , what did he do? Go to a luncheon? No. Give money? No. Anything? No. He sat by while the world around him suffered and did nothing and by asking him to do anything to find any cause in his life worth fighting for makes me a bad person?


It's not even about fighting. It's just about sleeping. The fact that he could sleep easily at night knowing that this was the world he had given his childern bothers me. It truly does. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe it did but my mother  didn't tell me. From what I've been told none of this bother. None of it matter to him. MLK , Robbie Kennedy , John Lennon , Jonestown , The Challenger. None of these tragedies. Real honest to gooodness tragedies bothered him or a caused a moments  hesitation in his daily routine. That's not right in my eyes. It's not acceptable.

The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.

[BAMF]

They did do something.

Something valuable and important.

Something you owe, owe greatly, to an extent you can never repay.



They raised you.

This, so much this. Thank you Cycle for saying what I was thinking.

My family? What mattered most to them was family. And I think that's the case for a lot of blue collar workers. They didn't necessarily care about the things going on around them as long as their family was taken care of. And you know what? They made my mom, who went back to school in her late 40's, and is now pursuing her doctorate. Know what her parents did? Her dad was a farmer, and her mom was a nurse. But they worked blue collar jobs so their children were able to have a good life of their own to choose what they wanted to do.

Just because someone doesn't have a thirst for knowledge or higher education or activism or a cause greater than their home doesn't make them less than. Instead, they are just as important. Without them, the people who are making a noticeable change in the world wouldn't exist. And if you want to be one of those people, you might want to think about thanking your family for providing you with what they did. You wouldn't be able to be the change you want to be without them.

[Iniquitous]

Want to know something?

My parents never raised me to understand you don’t judge a person by the color of their skin. Matter of fact, I grew up hearing the N word every time I turned around. I learned not to judge a person by the color of their skin on my own - by going to school and becoming friends with those not like me. My parents never taught me anything about trying to better the world. I learned it on my own. I reached a certain age, I grew curious, I started learning on my own. Do I blame them for their views? No - they are a product of their generation and at their age change is not going to happen.

And you know what? My dad served two tours in Vietnam. Nearly died on his second tour. What did he get when he got back? Spit on. Insulted. Called a murder. Hell, they don’t even teach Vietnam as a war anymore. It’s taught now that it was a conflict and the thousands that died are disrespected by those that say it was wrong to send our boys and men over there. You know who I think are bad people? The ones who can disrespect those that served because they think it was wrong.

Your grandfather is not a bad person because he focused on his life, his world. And again - you do not know what his reasons were. You do not know why he lived his life the way he did. You do not know what his thoughts and his beliefs were. A lot of people were content to keep such things to themselves. And that does not make them bad people.

Here’s my take on this. You are going to go on saying anyone that doesn’t devote their lives to what you think needs to be done is going to be a bad person. You have high ideals that no one is going to live up to. Maybe when you get a few years under your belt and your start seeing what life is really like you’ll look back and realize that your grandfather wasn’t this horrible man just because he focused on providing for his family.

[Sel Nar]

The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.

I'm going to Dissect this one point at a time, using what I know of those points in time.

This isn't about a Job. This is about our responsibility as humans. My Grand Father sat idly by as nineteen year old kids were sent off to die alone in a foreign. Don't tell me that because I think that makes him a bad person , That I need to grow up.

You say your grandfather sat idly as young men fought and died in foreign lands; assuming he was working in a factory during World War 2, He would be considered Essential Personnel, and not allowed to enlist; skilled workers, able to make parts for tanks, planes, ammunition, or even ships were always in short supply for the duration of the war, and skilled factory workers were basically told that the best thing they could do for the war effort was to help retool their factories as per the needs of the nation's military.

My Grand Father sat idly by as people pelted MLK with rocks and bottles. Swore at him , spit on him and what he do? Nothing. He didn't even explain to his own daughter that that was wrong. That treating people differently because of the color of their skin was incorrect and you all want to paint him as some sort of hero?

When MLK's civil rights movement started gaining traction, it was not considered 'wrong' to consider people of colour to be second-class citizens, at best. Remember, it had been barely a century since Slavery had been abolished, and, assuming your grandfather was born in the 20's or early 30's, he had spent essentially all of his formative years being taught that people with different skin colour were, at best, beneath his notice. As far as John Q. Public cared, what was going on with black men and women meant slightly less than a note in the morning newspaper, as they were busy being concerned about making enough money to feed his kids.

And I'm just looking at the 60s. He lived during the 70s ,  Women's Liberation and what he did do? What did he do for his daughter? Nothing. Let her get a job in a factory at seventy. In the 80s when AIDS plagued the gay community , what did he do? Go to a luncheon? No. Give money? No. Anything? No. He sat by while the world around him suffered and did nothing and by asking him to do anything to find any cause in his life worth fighting for makes me a bad person?

Shall I assume that your mother was old enough to make her own decisions at that point, considering you mentioned her getting a factory job? Was he deliberately preventing her from doing things like providing for her family, or was he encouraging her to stay at home, barefoot and pregnant? If neither of those assertions were true, which can be inferred by your stating that he 'let' her get a factory job, well, he did more to support women's rights by the simple expedient of not saying 'no, you can't get a job at a factory.'

In regards to HIV/AIDS, did he have any family members that were infected? Did he have friends that were infected? Did you expect him to overturn 60-some years of ingrained cultural bigotry overnight simply because of a disease that, according to all the news sources of the time, only affected 'Ankle-grabbers', when he was probably wondering how he'd have enough money saved for his likely-impending retirement? Speaking as someone whose father died from complications from HIV/AIDS, I can honestly say that your grandfather's position at the time is wholly unsurprising, and hardly something to condemn him for. If were were to condemn everyone that didn't do a damn thing about HIV/AIDS when it was first announced, then there'd be some 99% or more of the world in the prison made up of scorn and hostility that you seem to espouse.

It's not even about fighting. It's just about sleeping. The fact that he could sleep easily at night knowing that this was the world he had given his childern bothers me. It truly does. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe it did but my mother  didn't tell me. From what I've been told none of this bother. None of it matter to him. MLK , Robbie Kennedy , John Lennon , Jonestown , The Challenger. None of these tragedies. Real honest to gooodness tragedies bothered him or a caused a moments  hesitation in his daily routine. That's not right in my eyes. It's not acceptable.

In my opinion, he could sleep easily at night knowing that he did what was In His Power to try and make things a better place for his children. MLK's death was sad, yes, but it's not something he could have predicted, or prevented. Nor Robbie Kennedy (Speaking as a Canadian, by the by, Who the Hell is he?). Lennon was killed by a nutcase; Did your grandfather know either man personally? I doubt it. Was he at Jonestown, or did he read about it in the newspaper, or hear about it on the radio? The Challenger. Did he work on it? You point at moments in history which had a large public outcry, and blame your grandfather for not weeping, wailing, and gnashing his teeth when it would have amounted to nothing.

Would you castigate me for not donating money to survivors of the 9/11 attacks? I mean, I was only in high school at the time, and I live only a thousand kilometres away from New York, so clearly it must have been a massive formative event that completely changed my worldview, instead of me watching the TV in the school library for an hour, then returning to my homework because I wanted an A grade in my chemistry class. We remain detached from major events, because we are almost never involved in major events. I cannot find it in me to blame your grandfather for doing what it human nature; saying 'not my problem' to something that happens hundreds or thousands of kilometres away, and trying to get enough money to feed his family.

[AmberStarfire]

It's unusual to approach this topic from such a negative standpoint to judge people living their own lives for not doing more good. I think a lot comes down to the fact they are or were these people's lives to lead any way they saw fit. At any time in history, you could choose a significant event or a debate and say 'this person isn't contributing to it'. Not everyone wants to involve themselves in these, and that's where free will comes into it, at least some of the time. I'm guessing that you may have been heavily judged in the past, otherwise why judge another for doing their own thing?

There's a difference between not contributing to a certain conflict, issue or debate when you're an active part and someone is standing in front of you, and just choosing not to be involved in it and leading a quiet life, minding your own business. I'm one of those with degrees left, right and centre and it hasn't done me a lot of good in my day-to-day life. I get questions from relatives, 'you've studied all of these things. Why aren't you putting them to use? I tried to explain to 'so and so' about how your job relates to what you studied." Oh, it didn't. Not even remotely. A solid job and experience doing it can be worth more than a degree, because that's what a lot of employers look for. It is possible to educate yourself into a corner, where people don't want to hire you because you've specialised in something else and they don't think you're interested/content in whatever job it is they're offering. It's also possible to be educated and not care less about politics. I don't vote. No interest whatsoever and I don't live in my home country.

I genuinely think it's more a matter of free will, though. A man has a right to lead his life, the way he sees fit. You can judge all you want but this isn't about you. Just as what you have is important in your life, what he has is important in his. He may not have done things that bolstered the family's status or anything like that, but it sounds like he did what was expected of him, which was mainly looking after his family. I don't think a man can really be faulted for that.

I was one of those when I was younger who was going to do this, that and the other. As time passed, I kind of came to think that what does success even mean? You define it for yourself. Society doesn't care what you do and who is worth impressing? It's a collective of people doing their own thing, and caring what others think or not. Instead of aiming for that, I'm more dedicated to doing what makes me happy and those things I enjoy.

As uneventful as his life might seem to you, maybe he had that covered.

[ThePrince]

To answer your question DTW, you dont have to deal with your family if you dont like them. You get a job, get your own place and become independent then you never have to hear from them again.

I only deal with my family a few times a year and thats when I want to see them.

[consortium11]

It's unusual to approach this topic from such a negative standpoint to judge people living their own lives for not doing more good.

It's a fairly common one in moral philosophy pretty much regardless of the branch. Kantian ethics (or other duty theories), utilitarianism, even virtue ethics. In truth, one of the biggest criticisms of pretty much all moral theories is that in the end they view the vast, vast, vast majority of the human race as having been, in short, scum.

[Love And Submission]

I'm going to Dissect this one point at a time, using what I know of those points in time.

You say your grandfather sat idly as young men fought and died in foreign lands; assuming he was working in a factory during World War 2, He would be considered Essential Personnel, and not allowed to enlist; skilled workers, able to make parts for tanks, planes, ammunition, or even ships were always in short supply for the duration of the war, and skilled factory workers were basically told that the best thing they could do for the war effort was to help retool their factories as per the needs of the nation's military.

When MLK's civil rights movement started gaining traction, it was not considered 'wrong' to consider people of colour to be second-class citizens, at best. Remember, it had been barely a century since Slavery had been abolished, and, assuming your grandfather was born in the 20's or early 30's, he had spent essentially all of his formative years being taught that people with different skin colour were, at best, beneath his notice. As far as John Q. Public cared, what was going on with black men and women meant slightly less than a note in the morning newspaper, as they were busy being concerned about making enough money to feed his kids.

Shall I assume that your mother was old enough to make her own decisions at that point, considering you mentioned her getting a factory job? Was he deliberately preventing her from doing things like providing for her family, or was he encouraging her to stay at home, barefoot and pregnant? If neither of those assertions were true, which can be inferred by your stating that he 'let' her get a factory job, well, he did more to support women's rights by the simple expedient of not saying 'no, you can't get a job at a factory.'

In regards to HIV/AIDS, did he have any family members that were infected? Did he have friends that were infected? Did you expect him to overturn 60-some years of ingrained cultural bigotry overnight simply because of a disease that, according to all the news sources of the time, only affected 'Ankle-grabbers', when he was probably wondering how he'd have enough money saved for his likely-impending retirement? Speaking as someone whose father died from complications from HIV/AIDS, I can honestly say that your grandfather's position at the time is wholly unsurprising, and hardly something to condemn him for. If were were to condemn everyone that didn't do a damn thing about HIV/AIDS when it was first announced, then there'd be some 99% or more of the world in the prison made up of scorn and hostility that you seem to espouse.

In my opinion, he could sleep easily at night knowing that he did what was In His Power to try and make things a better place for his children. MLK's death was sad, yes, but it's not something he could have predicted, or prevented. Nor Robbie Kennedy (Speaking as a Canadian, by the by, Who the Hell is he?). Lennon was killed by a nutcase; Did your grandfather know either man personally? I doubt it. Was he at Jonestown, or did he read about it in the newspaper, or hear about it on the radio? The Challenger. Did he work on it? You point at moments in history which had a large public outcry, and blame your grandfather for not weeping, wailing, and gnashing his teeth when it would have amounted to nothing.

Would you castigate me for not donating money to survivors of the 9/11 attacks? I mean, I was only in high school at the time, and I live only a thousand kilometres away from New York, so clearly it must have been a massive formative event that completely changed my worldview, instead of me watching the TV in the school library for an hour, then returning to my homework because I wanted an A grade in my chemistry class. We remain detached from major events, because we are almost never involved in major events. I cannot find it in me to blame your grandfather for doing what it human nature; saying 'not my problem' to something that happens hundreds or thousands of kilometres away, and trying to get enough money to feed his family.

He  was  a child during world war two. I was talking specifically about Vietnam. and our people here really justifying his behavior as  righteous? A selfish life is alright because others were selfish when he was raised? How does that make it  right? So what if society saw racism as acceptable during MLK Jr's Rise , it was and is not acceptable.  Simply following the  crowd is not an excuse. This is the same tired lie people use to justify the horrendous actions of  certain German Citizens in World War Two. It's 2014. Stop making excuses for  bad people or people who allow the world to get worse. I'm not saying they should be in prison. What I'm saying is that they should not be seen as heroes or decent folk. My Mother should see her father for what he truly was , a selfish man who only  cared about himself and his family. That he never worried a second about others or the future of his own people. Of his own country. Of his own family.

Human nature isn't an excuse! Come on! It's human natures for dogs to be violent but when they bite the faces off of their owners we don't shrug and go on our way as if nothing happened. And will  most people ever live up to my ideals? No but I'd rather die wishing  for my species to improve then to  live a man who saw nothing but greed and conceit when he looked into the faces of his generation.


By making excuses for people who do bad things and allow bad things to happen , we allow them to happen ourselves. What ever happened to Personal Responsibility? What ever happened to Civil disobedience  and   Nonconformism? By pretending my grandfather is pious for simply going to work and raising his kids , we devalue the actions of people who have purposely tried to improve the human condition.


And I'm not going to change with a few years under my belt because five or ten years from now there's still going to be suffering in the world and  it will still be a product of the malignant indifference people like my grandfather has for others.


And human nature? Really? If it was human nature , then why do humans like Rosa Parks and Bobby Seale exist?  Magic? Divine intervention? Aliens? Come on. That's a cop out and you know it. And no I don't respect my grandfather for create because he didn't. I'm more a child of Thoreau and Camus worker who ignored the suffering of his people.

[Callie Del Noire]

The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.

And how do you know he didn't? Not every evil is foiled by big acts.. some are countered daily by folks simply communicating with one another. You dismiss a life you didn't have to live. You didn't see what acts of kindness that might have been done by simply helping out someone or holding a door or speaking up in the work place.

You claim that he did nothing? How do you know? Did you walk the long trail of your grandfather's life and know every moment of it? My grandfather worked sixty years in the same drug store, till the mill was shut down and nothing came to town for a decade or more. He's been in the ground a decade.. and every time I go home I hear stories from folks I never met during the 35 years of life I knew him in. "Bill served me at the counter, no matter what part.' (A black woman who surprisingly knew him after all these years) or the folks he held out when they were short ("Bill had a kind word and wasn't afraid to step up and be heard')

Your outlook on a life you never lived, and dealing with things you never had to deal with is astonishingly shallow. In your grandfather's time terrible things changed. I would have gone to jail for dating on of my girl friends, because she was of 'other ethinic background' (She was african american) and doing it across state lines. (The Mann Act). We had no rights or protections when the police took you into custody (The Miranda statement).

There is a truism.. 'Judge not least you be judged'. Don't assume you know what he did/didn't do because his life doesn't fit in yours.

I'm done.. there is no merit to debating/discussing this any further in my opinion. You clearly are looking for an affirmation on your outlook that you won't get here without further evidence beyond the vague commentary on the lives of those in your family you clearly don't understand.

Or to quote my grandmother, to whom you might look on as a 'nobody' having spent 80 years as a mother and housewife..

'Big actions require a foundation of small ones to take root'.. Her comment on the civil rights movement.

[Formless]

They did do something.

Something valuable and important.

Something you owe, owe greatly, to an extent you can never repay.



They raised you.

This. I can't say it any better.

[Mithlomwen]

I normally try to stay out of discussions in this forum, but I wanted to ask a question of the OP.

In your life up to this point, what sort of things have you accomplished? You are so down on your family for merely 'existing', I'm curious if you've done any of the things you've mentioned they should have done? 

By your definition, my life is pretty meaningless.  I'm have been a stay home mom for almost 10 years.  Before I quit my job to raise my children, I worked a low paying job for nearly eight years.  I've not done any of the things that you demean your family of.

However, in my opinion, I am still doing good deeds for society.  I like to think of myself as a good person.  I am caring and compassionate.  I will do everything I can to help out someone in need if I'm able.  No I'm not famous, I've never done anything of major consequence.  I am a mother and a homemaker, and I think I am doing a good thing.  I am trying my best to raise kids that will one day be good people. 

They may never do any of the things that you've listed.  They may, like so many others in the world, struggle to get by, but so long as they grow up to be good people, that's good enough for me. 

I think you do your mother a great disservice by saying that her life had no meaning.  She raised you.  How you can say that is meaningless boggles my mind. 

[Valthazar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxbDjOoFWdQ

;D

[rou]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxbDjOoFWdQ

;D

I've been trying not to post in this topic, but I had to leave this +1 here!

[Dashenka]

They're just losers. They did nothing for anyone. Not even their kids.

What did you do for anyone? What job do you have?

[Blythe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxbDjOoFWdQ

;D

I love The Onion! I hadn't expected that one of their vids would be so oddly on-topic here, either!  ;D

[meikle]

Why? You are here. That implies that you write  and create and think. They didn't.

They didn't think?  That seems unlikely.  They didn't create?  You just went on a rant about someone whose job was working in a factory.  Do you know what factories are for?

No interest in learning about Anne Frank and her struggle

Do you go out of your way to learn the history of every civilian who keeps a journal in wartime, or is it just the ones whose censored diaries are published that are important?

I struggle with the reality of this species everyday. The Wars , The Famines , The  Bigotry and I try my best to fix it. Whatever little I can do.

If the best you can do is whine that not literally every single one of hundred billion humans to grace the Earth were storied scholars, you might want to do some self-reflection and figure out how you can actually start improving things.

[BlueMaiden88]

You speak as if your family was the scum of the universe just because they worked hard, tirelessly to care for their family, provide them with a warm, safe home, food, and love.  You act as if they were supposed to go out blazing banners and crusading against every cause.  Do you know, working for a factory job is TIRING. 
I have worked since I was 14, something rare for someone my age, but I did it because I knew that I had a little extra energy and my family needed the money.  Presently, I work retail, making just over minimum wage, even though I have a college degree, and I'll tell you what: 8 hours of unpacking freight makes me feel like a ghost of a person.  There have been times that I've come home from work, resolving to clean something or to try to make something and I find myself waking up next to a bucket of ice cold mop water, asleep in the laundry basket, or curled up around my craft supplies because I simply did not have the energy or the strength to do anything else.  I have 7 books that I've bought and intended to read, but I'm so tired after work that I can't read more than a few sentences before I find myself asleep.
The fact that they worked in a factory and still had time to see about their children, to raise and love them, to clean the house, mow the law and cook for them says a great deal about their strength.  They did not know anything about working a desk job that would have afforded them more energy to 'do something great' with themselves.  They only knew to work, provide and care for their family and they did what they knew to do with gusto.

It doesn't mean that they are some sort of lesser subhuman.  It only means that they didn't KNOW or have the means to do anything else.  Don't judge them for what they didn't do.  Judge them by their deeds.  They were good at being parents and providers for their children.  They didn't beat each other or waste the money on alcohol or drugs.  They spent it on their kids.  They spent it on building a life.

If you really, truly think of them as lesser people because they didn't go to college, get degrees, or go running around fighting for change instead of taking care of their house and home, then take a long look at yourself.  You came from THEM.  That means that everything you find disgusting about them made it into you, whether you like it or not.  It makes you who you are.  You can make it look like you've been victimized, or you can see the value in what's been passed down to you.

Your worth isn't the sum of your parts, it is what you do with what you were given.  I imagine your grandparents had nothing or close to it.  They clawed their way to a better place so that their children might have a better opportunity.

[Iniquitous]

They did not know anything about working a desk job that would have afforded them more energy to 'do something great' with themselves. 

I wanted to address this one sentence. A desk job does not afford the worker more energy. I work a desk job and by the time I get home I am mentally dead and feel just as drained as someone who works a physically demanding job. Work is work is work and the end result on the human body is the same - exhaustion.

[BlueMaiden88]

I've worked both.  I find physical labor to be more draining, but that could be because I'm always worried that I'll have a seizure while I'm lifting something and accidentally kill myself.

[Ebb]

You know, in all of my time here on Elliquiy I don't think I've ever read a thread in the "Politics, Religion and Other Controversies" board that evidenced such a unified consensus of opinion. I don't think there's been one post in this thread that supports a single aspect of DTW's original post.

DTW, members of Elliquiy tend to be, in my experience, thoughtful individuals with a very wide range of personal experience and personalities. What would it take for you to consider the possibility that you might be just dead wrong here?

[rou]

Okay, I'm not sure DTW is dead wrong. Or rather — I'm making allowances that there's been a grievous miscommunication.

DTW knows his family, and we don't. While I wildly disagree with the outrage toward the traits he's described to us, I'm curious as to whether that outrage is misplaced. I wonder if there really is something "scummy" about his relatives and lack of ambition is the only thing he can actually recognize or denote. D has complained that we're painting his family members to look like heroes, and we are. We're outraged that he would say such things about such common and rather acceptable traits and are defending the idea of what those traits mean.

I think that's what he should be hearing. Maybe your grandfather is lazy, D. Maybe he's bigoted, careless, whatever you'd like to call him. We don't know and can't possibly know that. Honestly, I'm not sure that you can either, since it seems your struggling to form an image from what you've heard from your mother. But the fact is we don't know. So we also shouldn't be acting as if he's a valiant hero. He might have been an everyday hero. He might have been a total dirt bag.

But you didn't just say you don't like your family. Maybe that's all you meant to say, but you also said that lack of ambition and lack of involvement makes people losers. The reality is that a lot of people here work for low-wage jobs and don't really look to trouble themselves with the world's burden. You associate that with being a loser. You just called a bunch of us losers.

So really, I do think DTW is wrong. I don't know if he's wrong that his family sucks, but I'm fairly certain he's wrong about why.

[Ali Z]

Dear DTW,

As someone who worked a service desk at Wal Mart for several years before being a stay at home mother for the following 4, I have to say I am rather upset by this rant of yours. It's not necessarily because it inspires offense either. Achievement in ones life is entirely subjective, and it is not the slightest of stretch to assume that a normal, stable life in the generations before us, was the goal for most people. Heck, it still is the goal for most people. I know it was for me.

I never even had the prospect of college, because my parents simply didn't have the money. And you know what;? Not once did I ever hate them for that, because I knew they'd fought to get where we were, in a good life with a home and happiness. I wanted to be an artist or a singer, but considering my appearance I trashed the latter option, and fiddled with the first, coming to realize quickly that neither option would give me the life I really wanted. I still draw now and then, but my dreams simply did not fit my means or my circumstance, thus my goals had to change. I had always had the vague goal of being helpful, though I never aspired to be 'great' the way prominent figures of our past are deemed to be. I certainly feel no shame at all in my aspirations, nor should I be made to.

I eventually found my path to contribution in a rather unlikely place, one that gets completely ignored most of the time due to still overwhelming stigma. Mental illness is pegged to every rampage it seems these days, but no one knows how those afflicted with illness are really treated now, no one wants to know. But I learned it rather quickly out of nessecity, and, after a hiatus when I thought I would never be right for such a role, I settled into the place of Caretaker of some of the most swept under the rug people in the world.

Is it glamorous?; No, I had to collect a client's stool samples myself not too long ago....
Is it influential? ; Yeah actually, I effect the lives of people who really need help, and it keeps me coming back every day. Not everyone appreciates their existence the way that I, or my husband do though. In fact, there are cameras watching us from across the street, because apparently we're a negative presence, because you know, dem 'crazies'. >:[

Point is, change does not have to be massive to count. And, some measure of respect to those who made you, raised you and cared for you and taught you how to be this upstanding, passionate person is kind of due to be given from my perspective. But I would be foolish to assume you are just flat ungrateful, and so I will give you credit where it is due. You seem very driven, very solid in your beliefs. Just be sure all of that passion and drive is pointed in the proper direction.

[BlueMaiden88]

Okay, I'm not sure DTW is dead wrong. Or rather — I'm making allowances that there's been a grievous miscommunication.

DTW knows his family, and we don't. While I wildly disagree with the outrage toward the traits he's described to us, I'm curious as to whether that outrage is misplaced. I wonder if there really is something "scummy" about his relatives and lack of ambition is the only thing he can actually recognize or denote.

While I can usually appreciate an open mind, on this particular topic, I don't think you or the OP fully grasp how his argument is wrong.  You claim that we don't know anything about his family's character, but you cannot make that argument without knowing his family's character yourself.  Drawing speculation as evidence is weak and in court, would have your case thrown out.  All we have to go on is the OPs descriptions.  If you want to argue in favor of his stance, you need to use the evidence he's provided.  Other commenters have even ASKED for clarification as to what he meant by his statements.  He provided more weak 'evidence' as to their lack of worth to society.

You cannot pay me to believe that he can't articulate the flaws of his family because he is OBVIOUSLY much better at writing and constructing a well-planned point than some of the people here who older than him.  He claims they had a lot of children and that all they did was work.  He complains that they weren't key figures in big political events during the era they lived in, as if it's a crime to want a normal, safe life for your family.  He points out their work as uninspiring, tries to claim that the lack of education made them lesser human beings without grasping the other sides of the equation that was their life. 

Just because your grandparents aren't rich, public figures, who were pictured in the newspaper under headlines for the civil rights movements doesn't mean they are worthless.  And just because you don't know someone's life story, detail by detail doesn't give you the right to claim that they are 'horrible people'.  The only horrible thing is judging them for doing the best they could and supporting someone's rights to judge them.

[Iniquitous]

I am going to go through this point by point.


“It’s hard as someone like myself to deal with the fact that my grandfather worked at a factory. He only graduated high school. He did nothing with life and I look back and I bring it up  conversation with my mother that maybe he could have set a better example for her and she gets made and I don’t get why. He was not good at all. He did nothing with his life. He worked in a factory his whole life and so did he wife. He wasn’t even like supervisor.”

I seriously doubt his grandparents were “lazy”. They held down jobs in a factory.  No mention of either of them constantly changing jobs - matter of fact, the impression given is this couple held down the same job till retirement.

“He didn’t read. He never volunteered for anything. He was uncultured… degenerate essentially. He wasn’t a drunk and didn’t beat his wife but he did nothing good. He just existed and wasn’t a  good dad because I said to her, Did you dad ever tell you to go college and tell you to make something and he didn’t. My mom went to work at 16. That’s pathetic and she worked at a factory. Thankfully during my childhood she bettered herself and went to work at a hospital but I mean this family is a bunch of loses. They don’t own business. They don’t have degrees. They’re not good people and it’s hard for me to deal with that and know how to talk about them without sounding like I dislike them… because I do.”

One. I would suggest a dictionary.  Degenerate: An immoral or corrupt person. To quote Princess Bride ‘I don’t think that means what you think it means.’  The only  way degenerate applies as a descriptor of the grandfather is if the man was immoral and/or corrupt. Nothing in the opening post gives off the feel that this man was a degenerate. Two. ‘Not a good dad’ based solely on the fact that he did not tell his daughter to go to college and better herself. I’ll just flat out say this is a line of bullshit. The man worked as hard job (yes, factory work is HARD) to put clothes on his children’s backs. To put food on the table and a roof over their heads. He worked to pay his bills, buy gifts for his family. He raised them to be responsible adults. How do I know he raised them to be responsible adults? His mother got a job at 16. And by the way, it’s most assuredly NOT pathetic to get a job at 16. I was working as the neighborhood babysitter at 13, went to work part time at McDonald’s when I was 16. I’ve been working for  28 years. There is nothing pathetic about that - it’s actually commendable.

“They’re just losers. They did nothing for anyone. Not even their kids. It’s sad and I find it annoying that she doesn’t find at sad. She thinks it okay that this guy just did nothing with his life. Just had two kids and a wife and went to work for minimum wage in a factory and then died in his 60’s. Jesus Christ. That’s harrowing and she has no problem with that. ‘

Comes across as he thinks he has the right to tell other people how to feel. If they do not feel as he does, then they are wrong and he gets annoyed at it. Based on everything that he has posted so far nothing has been stated that would make me think his family is a bunch of losers. However, by this point I am offended because, well, I really do not like the implication that I am a loser because my life mirrors that of his family and if he thinks so little of them then I know what he thinks of me - and he doesn’t even know me.

“They were all terrible people too. Not just my grandfather. My Grandfather and Grandmother had like eight brothers and sisters a piece and they did nothing. I don’t have one great uncle who like climbed a mountain or became a mayor or a doctor or anything. They just popped more awful children and went to work for minimum wage. Nobody in this family for literal generations had done anything to make the world a better place or ease the suffering of others. They just did nothing and it drives me crazy. You would think … one of them would like go to college or open a soup kitchen or work at the ASPCA. NO! None of them. They are all just losers.”

Again, he needs to use a dictionary because nothing he has said up to this point makes his family members “terrible” They are not “bad”. He also needs to learn that most people do not look at the entire world. Their world is what is directly around them. Not too mention he simply DOES NOT KNOW if they did anything to ease the suffering of others. Did they go to church? If so churches will help those in need within the community and chances are good that his family members did help to ease the suffering of others. And chances are good that to them, ‘the world’ was their community. Why on earth would they think it imperative to stress, wail and gnash their teeth about people starving in Africa when they had to stress and worry about themselves? Guess what - it sucks that people out there  have such horrible lives. I hate hearing about the starving people, the people being killed because we humans haven’t figured out how to live together peacefully, the people dying because they have no access to doctors and medicine. But you know what? I can’t help them all. I have my own life, the lives of my children, my family to worry about. I have to take care of myself and my family first and there is precious little left over after that - and what is left over goes to the guy who sells “street newspapers” near work or the food pantry for the people in my community. Not to people halfway across the planet where I cannot even be sure the help would get to them.  And again, he is back to calling his family, and anyone like them, losers.

“Nothing good came from there existence. No donations to charity, no running a mile for cancer, no inventing the can opener. Just nothing. Didn’t even fight in any wars. They just came and didn’t do anything of note.

I can’t stand them. I really don’t like them and I don’t know how to deal with it. They’re just failures. That’s the only word for it. They didn’t do anything worth a damn at all and I don’t know how to reconcile with the fact that I should feel bad when bad stuff happens to them or feel bad that like seventy five percent of them are dead. Honestly, The difference between them being dead and alive is nill. They did nothing! Nothing at all! Nothing. Not a single thing in their life was important. Didn’t read my mother Shakespear or take her to a play or leave her a small fortune or paint! I would take a painter at this point. You don’t have to be a good painter. Just paint impressionism and you’d be the best person in my family for at least three generations.”

One. He has no way of knowing if any of them donated to charity - they could have put canned food in a box for a food drive at work or church. Pretty damn sure they didn’t have cancer/diabetes/whatever runs during that time. So he’s blaming them for something that didn’t even exist at that time. He is utterly incapable of empathy - to his way of thinking he should only feel bad for people if those people meet his criteria for being “good”. This is actually something that I would suggest seeing a doctor about - a complete lack of empathy towards those around you is worrying.  He completely misses the point that if his family had not existed then HE would not be here now to  disrespect them so heinously. 

And we end this fine little rant with him yet again leaving the impression that he views anyone and everyone who fails to live up to his standards as worthless. What I want to know is what has HE done with his life. How is HE any better than his family he hates so much,

DTW is flat out wrong here. He ignores the fact that someone cared enough to carry him to term, go through immeasurable amount of pain to bring him into this world, worked herself to the bone to give him a place to live, food for him, clothes for him, gifts for him - not too mention love him unconditionally. In his eyes none of that is important. Nope! They didn’t go to college. They didn’t have a small fortune to pass on. They didn’t have good jobs . They weren’t famous nor did they do anything he views as more important than love and provide for their family.

What he needs to learn is respect for his elders, some manners and some empathy for those around him.

Just sayin.

[rou]

Blue, I clearly did not make my point very well. You only quoted the first half of my post. Did you read the rest of it?

I was making a sort of tongue in cheek statement by saying "Well let's be fair, he's not 100% wrong, just 99%." I then went on to explain how his familial relations with people we have never met may have distorted his views. I'm not excusing them, and nor am I trying to make a case in court. This is a discussion, not a criminal trial. I'm simply speculating on why he might mistakenly make the assumption that these traits make for losers.

If I want to agree with D, I know what image to call to mind when he says loser. Someone lazy and complacent, who passes on their complacency to others. Someone who is probably not particularly kind or open minded. Selfish and short sighted.

If I want to disagree, I can conjure the opposite: an unfortunate hero stuck in a rut, hard working and exhausted who only has energy left to think about his world, someone who greatly values his family and passes on those values.

I think there's a very real possibility that D's family is more like the first, in which his personal, original dislike of them can be warranted. The problem is that we're all arguing about something that is close to him and not to us. I haven't heard him actually say anybody who looks for and can't get a better job is a scumbag, specifically that anyone who was trapped in their circumstances was a loser.

I'm NOT agreeing with him, and I stated as much. But I figure we should take into consideration the circumstances that prompted him to say these things and that we do not know his family as well as he does. The descriptions he have given us are insufficient cause to dislike someone so strongly, but there may be deeper reasons he hasn't explained and possibly doesn't even recognize.

What I know for certain is we're not going to get anywhere trying to convince him his family is good people. It's too personal. It's personal to him. And I don't know what you guys want, but I don't care if he dislikes his family.

What I care about is that he realize why his rant was offensive to many of us (myself included) and hopefully that he realize the traits he listed do not a loser make. That people can legitimately have different values from fortune and fame and good will toward man and still be passionate and successful individuals that are still good for the rest of the world. They can be. They aren't always.

"Throw out the evidence" if you like, but I'm not here to win a court case. I only came here to discuss.

As far as I'm concerned, the rant was snobbish, entitled, whiny, and offensive. I just didn't see the need to repeat what everyone else has already said. It was an ill advised rant.


Edit: IO, this post doesn't take into account yours, but all I have to say is yes, for the MOST part, I agree. Just not 100%, and I thought I would mention my 1% dissent. But yes, guys, I hear you and mostly I agree. I'm only trying to give this guy the benefit of the doubt which may very well be too generous, I'm aware.

[Envious]

What an awful and ignorant rant. You have a misguided notion of worth, of accomplishment, and a wildly inaccurate sense of reality. You ooze resentment and uneducated entitlement. Your ill constructed outburst is a terrible habit of many 'uncultured degenerates' I might add. I find it hard to believe that this much pent-up angst is over your granddaddy's lack of motivation. Looking past your poorly articulated arguments, I'm going to say that the real cause of your abhorrence is that there aren't enough people working towards the betterment of themselves and mankind in general.

If such is the case, I would suggest locking this thread and starting anew. Also, I really wouldn't use family members as your evidence. Your blip of an existence does not set the pace for the rest of us, and it only opens you up to personal attacks (the veiled argument in the background here is that you're blaming grandpa for not inspiring mom, which is why you currently lead such a pointless existence right now). The only thing you've accomplished here is creating an arena where we fight on inconsequential ideas (using mostly a foundation of assumption) that don't really hit the point you're trying to make.

[Top Cat]

I'm going to try to avoid snarling at the OP for what I perceive as a fundamental lack of empathy for those who helped create and shape the world he lives in today. Rather than that, I'd like to point out that the world ~60 years ago is vastly different from the world we know today. (I'm using 60 years as the ballpark, guessing at the OP's age and the ages of his parents and grandparents).

60 years ago was the late 1950's. Let's take a look at some of the huge differences from then and now.

• Computers didn't exist, for all practical purposes. This seems obvious and unimportant, until you realize all of the ramifications that follow.
• The United States - no, the majority of the world - had only recently gotten out of some of the worst wars ever known; many people's lives weren't about improving themselves, but repairing the damage in Europe and elsewhere.
• The only music options available were buying expensive LP vinyl records, or listening to the radio, with far fewer channels (and far less variety between them) than today.
• Writing to a family member in another state required actually writing, with pen or pencil on paper, the letter. Again, there were no computers, no faxes, no email, no text messages. And these letters only cost a few pennies to mail - but a few pennies, in that day and age, was close to being the equivalent of a dollar today. Imagine, if you will, if you had to pay a buck for every email, every text message.
• Similarly, attempting to call someone who lived more than 20 miles away was expensive - expensive enough that it was impractical for anything but emergencies. Writing letters made more sense.
• Commuter airplanes were still relatively new, rare, and expensive. Visiting relatives who lived across the country was difficult and expensive if not outright impossible for most folks. Driving long distances was viewed as only a desperate measure, thanks to low (compared to today) fuel economies in cars and low (compared to today) reliability for the engine and parts. Going from New York to California was likely to have several stops for repairs, for example. Political people like Martin Luther King Jr. were able to get around the country thanks to large amounts of support and money from others - support that the average citizen simply didn't have.
• Televisions were expensive, and the concept of reruns didn't even exist yet. You either needed to be in front of the television when a given show was on, or just miss it. Forget the idea of synopses or spoilers, they didn't exist either. See the movie Back to the Future for a brief example of this, dressed up as a minute of comic-relief.
• Our media was heavily doctored and colored, driving for a fear of Russia and other countries. Following the horrors of World War II, many people had a firm belief that it was only a matter of time before the United States became the next target of the next Hitler-like villain, with the commonly-painted bad guys being Russia. Bomb shelters were sold to people who could afford them, and they sold well.
• Going to college was something only the best high-school students did; it wasn't available for anyone who wanted to learn. At that time, you had to prove ahead of time that you were capable of brilliance, OR have large sums of money thrown at the colleges, to get you in. High school graduation was the standard, a goal of competence for many.

I could go on for another hour or so of illustrating just how fundamentally different the world was for our grandparents. For the average person, being able to support and raise a family was the pinnacle of achievement. That your grandparents raised some relatively solid parents, who in turn raised you, is an accomplishment worth being proud of. Don't look so much at the stars they never achieved... take pride in the paving they built, to bring you into the world.

[KatKwik]

I read the OP and sat here thinking about how to reply.

I think there is clearly a lack of empathy for your family and their history, but that's something you need to deal with and as you clearly stated it was a rant.

Unfortunately that rant brought to light a lot of negativity from the rest of us as we have strong beliefs on what we consider to be valuable in life.

Family to me is important and irrespective of what they did or didn't do. I was brought up to not judge others and to accept that people are different. I came from a middle class family that lost everything. While my family have not according to you achieved anything, taught me a few life lessons. That one does not accept your lot and blame the past for your own failings. You take that, learn from it and make your own way, moving forward.

I  am the risk taker in the family, the trailblazer and yet I know that I would not have been that if I had not had the encouragement from a family with limited resources and the drive to work hard so that I could do well. So I am grateful for their 'failing' because it was how we learnt to be better and each of us has grown stronger. We have left a mark for the next generation to follow. So what may have started as a chicken scratch has grown into a blazing trail. The one thing that has kept us together has been the deep connection we have as a family.

It costs nothing in this world to love and whether others see that as a weakness then so be it. We are a family and that is all that matters. We stand together and help and support each other when times are hard. We do this without question, without asking and never expect anything in return.

While I have remained the outcast, the rebel, I know that I will always have a home and that without a doubt there will be acceptance.

I do apologise if I offend anyone here, that is not my intention. I just wanted to add my opinion. 

[Mathim]

This reminds me of something from my high school days. My best friend, I won't name him but he was a hispanic chap who lived in the 'ghetto' of my hometown and I got to know his family really well. His parents were immigrants and in fact his mother was a migrant worker. I often wondered about how he felt about these kinds of things, where everyone in the family, regardless of age, had to work really hard, sometimes at multiple jobs, just to keep afloat. He wasn't ashamed of it but didn't seem to have any higher aspirations than they did to come up out of that. He dropped out of college after one semester, I never really understood why, but I can't help wondering if that self-fulfilling prophecy had anything to do with it, or if he really just wasn't as smart as I believed he was.

It really is just a matter of personal opinion. Some people just had bad circumstances they couldn't get out from under and if that affects their children, it's up to that generation to decide if they're going to wallow in blaming their families or take their example of working their ass off and make something better than the previous generation managed. Does this mean the previous generation is a waste of space? Of course not. They laid the foundation for the choice and freedom the current generation enjoys. In fact that kind of example can inspire someone to excel if only so they can avoid poverty and such in their own future.

I lost contact with my pal quite a while ago but last I had heard, he was still doing menial, minimum-wage type jobs. Do I respect him less for it? Absolutely not. He's my friend, always will be, and whatever he makes of his life, it's up to him. What makes him happy? I'm not a mind reader but I have the feeling he's more content not having huge responsibilities, including raising a family (he always claimed to like being a loner) or being in a high-up position type of job. Criticizing him for this just feels like it would be wrong. Could he be doing more? Of course, but that's true of just about anybody. But it's our life to live and if I choose to be a schoolteacher instead of a doctor even though I have the potential to do the latter, I won't stand for someone telling me something like I should have done that instead. It isn't something that would make me happy or that I would have wanted to spend so much time doing. Granted that's somewhat of a larger-scale situation but it's still comparable. I'd have no right to talk badly about my friend or others like him since I want to enjoy the freedom to do with my life what I want as well.

[Sho]

I would have to ask…how much have you done? How much have you changed? Have you raised a family and kept food on the table and provided a home for them?

If you have, then…well, that's fabulous for you, but you need to keep in mind that not everyone can.

There are plenty of people who take a job so that they can have a comfortable life and that is their priority. It sounds to me like you're pushing your priorities onto your grandfather without taking into account that his priorities may have been very different from your own. That doesn't make him a bad person. Maybe he didn't teach his daughter about all the things going on because they may not have been affecting him directly and his priority was making sure there was a roof over their head, food on the table, and a little money for small pleasures like bingo. That's not a terrible ambition.

The only thing I can say, honestly, is that you obviously prioritize certain things, so rather than judging people for not thinking the same way you do, you should just go out and do those things yourself. Try to keep in mind that it can be hard for people to break out of the socio-economic strata they were raised in. Just…really, just show some respect. You are where you are because your grandfather raised your mother and she in turn raised you. During your grandfather's time a factory job was perfectly respectable, and Sartre wasn't a priority whatsoever.

Frankly, this necessity to know everything and have higher degrees are fairly modern concepts. IMO, your grandfather did what he needed to do, which was provide for his family. If you want different things then it's your responsibility to provide them for yourself, but you shouldn't look down on people who are content with a simple, non-political life.

[AmberStarfire]

I notice DTW is listed as suspended. I wonder if this means he won't read the further posts now?

[Avis habilis]

That's correct. This discussion seems to have been accidentally necro'd.

[Mikem]

...

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings. So here's my opinion on his feelings. They're horrible.

Wow, just reading each sentence of that rant pissed me off in varying degrees. Good lord I need something uplifting now. Like a kitten.

[Oniya]

As today is laundry day, I leave you with this:



Also a fair representation of what my cat is doing right now.  XD

[itsbeenfun2000]

I know OP has been suspended but if he gets back on I hope he reads some of these posts.

My father was a high school drop out and tool and dye maker. He left school to help out his parents during the depression. Most people that were children during the second world war were brought up that having a factory job was what one strived for if they didn't have the education to go to college. I look back at my father and his sacrifice to make ends meet for his parents. He was a blue collar worker that learned a trade, brought up a family of five and loved his wife and kids. He also encouraged his kids to do different things depending on their traits. Two sons and a daughter that are blue collar, one son and a daughter who are white collar.

My point is that perhaps his grandfather did exactly that. He encouraged his daughter to work in a factory when she said she wanted to. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have encouraged her to go to school if she wanted to. The fact that during that time he wanted her to work is commendable most people believed that women should stay at home and raise a family. Most college educated women at that time became teachers for the most part or found a husband. At the time that was great. In today's standards its seems sad they didn't have more opportunities. That doesn't make the people back then bad for not thinking otherwise.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to work in a factory, construction, the trades, military or go to college it is a personal choice that most parents understand and encourage. I teach and I don't care what my students do after they graduate as long as they become tax paying citizens and don't become a problem for society. They all have their lives and each of them define happy in their own way. I expect them to learn a good work ethic and not to close doors so after they are done with high school they can have that choice.

[Mikem]

I'll provide a little relevant story.

I'm a twenty two year old male in the land of opportunity. I've been out of Highschool for four years now, and I have just under eight months of actual work experience so far. Yes. Eight months out of four years I was capable of holding a full time job. And those eight months was only a part time job in retail. I've never been to College, and quite frankly I don't want to enroll. I have no idea what I'd major in and I'd rather not place myself in a world of debt. I graduated High School with a 1.7GPA. I failed three math courses in a row during school. I live with my unemployed mother in my deceased grandparents house living day to day, seeing that a potential employer passed me up for someone else, or just realize that they'll never call back to bother. I have no real world talents that can transfer into a tangible career, I have no hobbies that can make me a little money on the side. All I have is a dream or two that I may never even see realized. Right now I'm a strain on society. I'm giving nothing back. All I am is a mouth to feed and a body to house. Do I feel worthless sometimes? Yeah. Do I sometimes stumble and feel that it'd be better if I just didn't exist? Yes. But I NEVER, not even ONCE think lowly of people in my position or worse. I NEVER look at someone who hasn't gone to College or strived for something bigger and better and go, "well what good are you then?".

There are ALL walks of life, and some of them force people to struggle, or just live very simple lives. But that doesn't give the OP, or anyone else the right to belittle those who aren't Supermen for society.

[AmberStarfire]

A trade might be useful to learn? It wouldn't cost as much as going to university and there is more potential to make money in many cases. You also might find it helps your overall outlook and would give you some work experience if you volunteered or took an internship. I know it's not great to work for nothing, but it could help flesh out your cv, show people you're dedicated to doing something/helping others and it is one way to give back. It might lead to other opportunities. Sometimes if you don't have the opportunities you need to create them or find other ways to go about getting them.

You might also be able to find some free training options there. I don't know about the states really, the government runs free training courses here. I've taken several of them before here and personally, I found them brilliant. Employers don't need a whole lot of study sometimes but they like to see education and experience. I think if you got more of each, it may help you toward your goal. You don't need a course to study something indepth. Pick a subject, delve into it and learn. If you're good at something and know it well, over time you will find that opportunities might arise in one way or another.

Anyway I just wanted to give some advice. The way I see it, if anyone is going to judge someone for making their own choices and working regular jobs to look after their family and put food on the table, then their opinions don't really matter.

[Oniya]

I'd also suggest looking online to see if you can find a subject that sparks you.  Khan Academy is a marvelous source of free learning (the little Oni is learning computer programming!), and YouTube has an entire section of college-level lectures available.  No credits that I know of, but it's a way of getting a sense of what your passions might be without the outlay.

[Valthazar]

I have no real world talents that can transfer into a tangible career, I have no hobbies that can make me a little money on the side.

Like Oniya said, it is very easy to learn marketable skills online, all for free.  For example, right now, I am learning basic Spanish (using the internet and a $6 used textbook I bought) and some basic coding online.  Another one of my friends is learning all the advanced features of 3D animation (Poser/Zbrush) and Photoshop online.  Even if you don't have these types of software, there is a lot of similar open source software out there.

Just try to figure out what some skills you would be interested in learning, and you'll surely find free resources online.  These will look great on a resume.

[itsbeenfun2000]

I am going to echo what Amber said. Volunteering can lead to opportunities. It does shoe employers that you are willing to do something that helps other people and society. Also most major cities or large suburbs of major cities have a job center. Once you have volunteered for a bit visiting one would be a good idea.

Good luck in what ever you decide. Find a niche and stick with it.

[TaintedAndDelish]

Some folks measure their own self worth and the worth of others with things like status, wealth, looks and accomplishments. They are free to do that. We however, do not need to apply those standards to ourselves. We are free to define self worth and success as we wish and to find our own personal path to achieving these goals.

[Rick345]

What you said about your grandfather, mother, and the rest of your ancestry is what politicians do, they knock what someone else does because they are too lazy to actually come up with a solution to a problem. The easiest thing in the world is to knock someone down.. I think your disdain for your family probably comes from your mother’s attempt to motivate you to get an education and become something so your life is a little easier than her’s and her father’s.

I’m guessing she said things like, “DTW your a smart kid don’t end in a dead end job like me, your grandfather worked his ass off for years, all he did was work, work, work and more work and all it got him was an early grave. Get some education make something of yourself be a doctor and lawyer do something so you don’t have to work at a shitty job till it kills you.”

I’ll also guess your a teenager, that’s usually the only time in a persons life when they have the luxury to a protest, to freely disagree with those in power at any level of authority, and when problems seem to have easy solutions. You have that freedom because of your mother makes sure you are feed and clothed. You have the luxury of not worrying that your boss might see your picture in the paper protesting a chemical spill, a chemical spill the company you work for was responsible for, and tomorrow you will be called into the office and he’ll say “Sorry DTW we have to let you go..”, and then tell security to escort you to the front gate.

During the Vietnam War and the protest movements that sprang for it: War protests of course, and the civil rights movement. Those who protested that war were often those who were of draft age and yet not old enough to vote. They didn’t know why they should go 10,000 miles away to fight and die for someone else’s right to vote when they didn’t have that same right here at home. Also many people who fought in Vietnam were the son’s and daughters of WWII veterans and were seriously worried about communist aggression and supported the military efforts in Vietnam, at least at first.

From the sounds of your rant your grandfather wasn’t a teenager and already had a job and family to worry about. We have the blessing of 20/20 hindsight when it comes to Vietnam. Maybe your grandfather agreed with the war many people did at first just like many of us agreed with GW Bush’s invasion of Iraq at least in the beginning, we bought into the nation that Saddam was connected to 9/11 and he had weapons of mass destruction and if he wasn’t stopped we’d wake up one morning with a mushroom cloud raising from the heart of our cities.

The Civil Rights movement was a direct result of the war in Vietnam. In King’s Dream speech he says,  “We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote.”, when black men were fighting in Vietnam in disproportionate numbers yet weren’t allowed to vote or had nothing worth voting for he civil rights movement was born. If you haven’t done so read King’s, “Letter from the Birmingham Jail.”

To clarify my point most of us then and now need our jobs, so we don’t rock the boat. Call us cowards maybe we are but, most of us need the mere pennies our shitty job pays or we and our children won’t eat... Its that simple. I know plenty of single moms that leave their Wal-Mart jobs to go work the evening shift at McDonald’s. Or men that are school teachers and work part time at Wal-Mart. We suck it up, we put on our smile masks march in the workplace like their is no where else in the world we’d rather be and do our jobs hating every minute of it because people we love count on us and can’t let them down. We go home and fix dinner and sit down, make sure you’ve done your homework, and for just a minute or two watch the news and we are so bone tired we fall asleep with a dinner plate in our laps and half a sandwich hanging out of our mouths. When we wake up at midnight we wash the dishes, throw a load of laundry in the washer, fold the clothing we left in the dryer the night before and take a shower and hit the bed. Close our eyes for a couple of hours and are woken by the alarm... Get up and pack lunches for your brother and sisters, wake them up and get them ready for the bus... Then throw on our work clothes, put on our smile masks and do it all over again... Day after day, week after week, year after year... When do we have time to protest, when do we have time to write a book, create the Mona Lisa, or compose “Hey Jude”, or “Yesterday”, when do we have time? When?

That’s the life most people live and that’s the life your mother and grandfather probably lived... That’s the life most of us live.

Even though I don’t even know you I’ll write a little rant about you just to show you how easy it is... Please keep in mind that my rant is completely fictional, its merely an attempt to show you how silly and insulting your rank sounds to most of us...


DTW I was at the book store yesterday and you could have knocked me down with a feather I didn’t see your bestseller... Oh wait I read your rant and know you couldn’t possible have written a book because you are obviously too damn lazy to open a dictionary...

You belittled your grandfather because he didn’t protest the Vietnam War, so why are we still fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan why haven’t you stopped them. I’m absolutely sure you have written countless letters to the president eloquently explaining explaining your plan to bring the Shiites and Sunnies into peaceful co-existence... I hope they spell your name right on your Noble Peace Prize... Why haven’t you stopped these wars the longest in American history. Why haven’t you stopped them why?

If that’s beyond your abilities than why don’t you take the easy route and go down to your local enlistment office and sign up to put on a uniform. When you’re over in the sandbox maybe then at least the poor bastard who is on his fifth tour of duty can come home and see his six month old son he’s never laid eyes on. Or maybe it will allow the mother who was deployed thirty days after her daughter was born a chance to hold her baby again... Before the Blackhawk she pilots gets hit by a RPG...

Why haven’t you fixed Obamacare, I think it was a good idea but, my God what a cluster fuck it has become... Affordable Heath Care, what’s affordable about it? Certainly you have a solution and I’m sure if Congress even gets off their endless recess your solution is the first thing they’ll pass. Wait what happened to your letter to Obama so compellingly outlining you health insurance fixes, he will rush right out and do them, go ahead tell’m just go the signing statement route convince him your fixes will work...  Oh wait you haven’t wrote Obama, you haven’t wrote Congress you don’t even have a clue on how to fix health care because you’re too busy doing important work like bitching about your long dead Grandpa...

You haven’t wrote a bestseller, you haven’t stopped the wars, you haven’t fixed healthcare you are a waste of the oxygen you breathe... I hope my fictitious rant sounds as stupid as I mean it to sound. Because to many of us your rant sounds just as ridiculous and insulting. Do like your Mama says and go to school she worked too hard for you to pass up that opportunity.

[Caehlim]

[Blythe]

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