Some Polling I Found Intersting

[Vekseid]

Okay really my last post but I will happily research maybe you can do the same link to the Daily Pedophile snipped.

There is no such thing as original journalism from the Daily Mail. It is a fucking tabloid, with a reputation that makes the National Enquirer in the US seem realistic.

For all the ranting I make about Fox, Sky, and News Corp in general, I have to admit that they still have some semblance of journalism and will do original research. Glenn Beck and Andrew Breitbart individually had more integrity than the entirety of the Daily Mail's staff combined.

If you cannot find a better, non-DM affiliated source, it is not a valid reference. If you can, you can use the actual source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RrjyHlbZck

And if you're wondering why I call it the Daily Pedophile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9dqNTTdYKY

Do not link that trash again, please.

If you are at all a decent human being.

[Retribution]

Actually, not making any judgement or comment on that source's integrity or lack there of Vesk. I simply used it because it was the same source Cryo had tossed my way so I figured he would acknowledge it. But I will keep that in mind and not link it again.

[Valthazar]

(Of course it's true that I always have trouble entirely believing people who talk about having grown-up white working class or "white trash" in North America -- with the possible partial exception of Saskatchewan -- and yet affect not to know about the widespread nature of this kind of right-wing political sentiment even in areas where it's not entirely dominant. But one does try to extend the benefit of the doubt.)

I know there's a lot of hate for Daily Mail here, but with regard to the above article you have linked, if you read the full thing, Joe the Plumber apparently copied that particular post it is talking about, verbatim from Kevin Jackson on the The Black Sphere.

Original Kevin Jackson Post:  http://theblacksphere.net/2013/10/america-needs-white-republican-president/#BOTSZxPlAVqYyB2X.99   (might need to close an ad)
Joe Wurzelbacher's Re-Post:  http://joeforamerica.com/2013/10/america-needs-white-republican-president/

From reading Kevin Jackson's site, he seems to be a black man.

They are identical, and it's a shame it is only considered racist when the white person says it.  Either we should acknowledge that this is a legitimate perspective that everyone can openly discuss (regardless of race), or we should agree that it is not acceptable for anyone to make this kind of commentary.  Personally, I lean towards the side of this type of argument being unacceptable for anyone, regardless of white or black, or any other race.

[Oniya]

There is no such thing as original journalism from the Daily Mail. It is a fucking tabloid, with a reputation that makes the National Enquirer in the US seem realistic.

Or, for a more tongue-in-cheek explanation:

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=186839.msg9010332#msg9010332

[Cyrano Johnson]

Actually, not making any judgement or comment on that source's integrity or lack there of Vesk. I simply used it because it was the same source Cryo had tossed my way so I figured he would acknowledge it. But I will keep that in mind and not link it again.

I am a thoroughly indecent human being but will also refrain from linking the Daily Mail in the future. (I actually wasn't paying close enough attention or would have chosen one of a thousand other, better sites to link to for that story.)

(I will also note that by a strange coincidence, Retribution has happened on my rapper name: Cryo-J. "He's one cold mutha...")

EDIT: Oniya, that test is hilarious... I got to "Hated" in only six questions! Sounds about right.

[Retribution]

I am a thoroughly indecent human being but will also refrain from linking the Daily Mail in the future. (I actually wasn't paying close enough attention or would have chosen one of a thousand other, better sites to link to for that story.)

(I will also note that by a strange coincidence, Retribution has happened on my rapper name: Cryo-J. "He's one cold mutha...")

EDIT: Oniya, that test is hilarious... I got to "Hated" in only six questions! Sounds about right.

Sorry, I tend to shorten people's names and put my own spin on them without even realizing I am doing so. I attribute it to being horrible on remembering names and so I stick something on people I can recall unconsciously. I do not do so meaning any disrespect.

[Cyrano Johnson]

It's all good, really. No offense taken.  O8)

[MasterMischief]

Trust me, those who grew up like I did face just as many issues as those who grow up in the inner city.

Sorry, I don't trust you there.  I do not doubt you faced hardships, but without being those 'other people', you can not possibly know what hardships they faced.  I once thought as you do.  I have been lucky and had many opportunities that I have since discovered were blocked to others.  Many people do succeed, unfortunately, hard work is not the only determining factor.

[Retribution]

Sorry, I don't trust you there.  I do not doubt you faced hardships, but without being those 'other people', you can not possibly know what hardships they faced.  I once thought as you do.  I have been lucky and had many opportunities that I have since discovered were blocked to others.  Many people do succeed, unfortunately, hard work is not the only determining factor.

But you can know what hardships I faced and say they do not compare? Pardon me while am amused by the utter irony of that statement.

Having said that at no point have I ever said hard work is the only answer. This entire argument was derived from this discussion being shifted to race. How that happened I have no idea because the point I was trying to make in the original post was that most people have views that are not really that far from each other....what race has to do with a statement like that mystifies me. But yes racism does exist and it is an ugly thing, no that was not and has not ever been the point of what I was attempting to discuss.

[MasterMischief]

But you can know what hardships I faced and say they do not compare? Pardon me while am amused by the utter irony of that statement.

I did not say I know what hardships you faced only that you can not know what hardships they faced.  Unless, of course, you want to suggest you have experienced everyone's hardships.  Your point seemed to suggest that if you can do it, so can they.  And that seems an all too common sentiment that I just do not buy into anymore.

[Toral Stimins]

Unless I am very much mistaken, this whole discussion is about the US of A. Where even anyone you lot call, left wing, are being seen as far right in Europe. Oh wait, I said this in another thread too.

[Retribution]

I did not say I know what hardships you faced only that you can not know what hardships they faced.  Unless, of course, you want to suggest you have experienced everyone's hardships.  Your point seemed to suggest that if you can do it, so can they.  And that seems an all too common sentiment that I just do not buy into anymore.

Okay, let me take a breath here as your initial statement seemed pretty dam hypocritical to me and to be honest it ticked me off. So let us say no one can know another's feelings unless they have walked in their shoes as the old saying goes. And there are many strata of people who have for lack of a better term faced hard times. But racism is another matter all together and it is hideous and no I cannot know that unless my genes suddenly mutate.

But to get back on topic  :-) the short version of the point I was trying to make is that I think the poll shows we are all not that far apart on views and I feel like the media stirs shit to sell papers.

[MasterMischief]

But to get back on topic  :-) the short version of the point I was trying to make is that I think the poll shows we are all not that far apart on views and I feel like the media stirs shit to sell papers.

I often have to take a step back and promise myself not to read/watch the news for a day or two.  I give myself time to refocus on what is important to me.

[Valthazar]

Sorry, I don't trust you there.  I do not doubt you faced hardships, but without being those 'other people', you can not possibly know what hardships they faced.  I once thought as you do.  I have been lucky and had many opportunities that I have since discovered were blocked to others.  Many people do succeed, unfortunately, hard work is not the only determining factor.

Luck is a factor, connections are a factor, charisma is a factor, and so is creativity.  You're right, there are prejudices all of us face.  Could be because of skin color, being obese, being born without a limb, having a lot of debt, having alcoholic parents, you name it.  Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, all of us, have something or another that is a splinter in our mind, that we want to feel is holding us back.

And you're right, maybe things won't be ideal for any of us.  But the successful people (and I'm defining this as middle class people who have some degree of stability) are people who acknowledge that their lives are not perfect, and continually trying to find ways to create a niche, and capitalize on what makes them unique.

Life isn't fair, but by continually reminding yourself of that, you are making it impossible to be successful.  Accept that life isn't fair, and make the best of your situation. 

Any of us could be paralyzed in a car accident tomorrow, regardless of our position in society.

[Retribution]

That advice Val is oddly like how I used to deal with kids when coaching. The phrase was instilled in me by my college coach. It went something like this "the ref made a bad call and it cost me the match." To which I responded "then it was your fault for allowing your opponent to be so close to you that a poor call could determine the outcome." But that is all a topic for another discussion.

[Valthazar]

I just never understood the idea that one attributes their personal hardships as the reason they can't achieve something - as if their hardships are any different than anyone else.  Sure, some people are born into more financial privilege, and things might be easier for them in rising up in their career.  But they are also human and struggle with their own issues.  Maybe their kid has autism, or they have marital problems holding them back emotionally, or a kid dealing with drug addiction.

If someone can't afford college, or feel they don't have the same "pedigree" as others, then they should show society what they are really worth.  My post here is pretty much common sense, and a little googling is all it would take for someone to figure out the next step in their life to move forward.

All of us have the internet.  If people used their time wisely and learned a topic, and become a master at it, that's half the battle.  No one can take away someone's knowledge.  How easy is it to blog, or to submit an article for the newspaper, or send an email to someone on LinkedIn?  Opportunities are everywhere.

You'd be amazed how many people have access to the internet in the United States, and if they don't have it, how easily it can be accessed in libraries.  Man, worst case, you could even walk into a bookstore, and read the newspapers/books/magazines and yet, no one takes advantage of all it has to offer.

That's why I don't buy into this logic that America isn't the land of opportunity anymore.  Sure, it might be harder, but there are still opportunities to compete.

[kylie]

          Hardships are not all equal.  It may be true that you've faced hardships, but it's another thing entirely to show that your hardships are of the most frequently, systematically occurring kind or that they are somehow the 'least fair.'  I don't disagree that the working class as a whole gets a raw deal, for instance, but being Black and working class is still likely to be somewhat worse than White and working class.  Multiply that times a lot of people and you have patterns.

          If you grew up in a particular side of the city regarded as the "poor, Black neighborhood," all a racist prospective employer has to do is make some assumptions about the address on your resume.  They may toss it without ever seeing your face. 

Now, is that your fault for 'putting yourself in that position,' for being so 'close' to racism that they could do that and remove a whole slew of entry-level office jobs that someone else, say kylie who happens to be white and live in some other cheap neighborhood -- the landlords are not going to look twice at her so long as she can fork over the cash every month (and they don't worry a whit about that being just barely doable for her; for a Black person oh they might keep an eye out and keep saying, "When are they going to break, better dump them first" but no, she's White! -- well, she happens to get inside those jobs (as well as that neighborhood) just fine.

There may be some opportunities (some of them, terribly transient or risky), but there won't be all the same ones for everyone.

         One caveat:  What feels hard, feels it.  I'm  not trying to say that one hardship must be experienced as worse by those who have it.  But objectively, different groups face both different and sometimes more or more pressing obstacles. 

When your whole community is more likely to be situated in a place the government has more or less pulled out basic services (police, firefighters, library funds) from since you were young, the odds you can get enough time on that one computer at the public library soon and long enough to compose a famous research paper become kind of slim...  Btw, I work in a place where university students (in this case of rural backgrounds) are still writing papers (in ESL) all by hand.  I have a little experience with the general problem of people trying to process a lot of information fast, with no word processors to edit it and limited time or training to actually write things out neatly.

[Valthazar]

And I don't disagree with most of what you've said.  I could probably provide a list of all the hardships and discrimination I've faced as well, including racial, since you seemed to emphasis that one.

But what productive good does it provide on an individual basis to constantly reinforce all the biases in one's life?  It's a vicious cycle of negativity, and at least on an individual basis, accomplishes nothing for that specific individual.  People are naturally drawn to individuals who exude positivity, and optimism, despite their life situation.  Why is it that we are inspired by quadriplegics, who have accepted their situation, and push forward to live life to the max, despite their condition?

I've learned that life is unfair, I've accepted it.  But I also know that I have many strengths, as do all people, and I run with it.

[kylie]

          Well, it depends whatever you mean by productive good.  I could argue that most of the economy today does little "productive" of wealth (assets) for most people, except a very small handful at the top.  Many people will be renting for their whole life or won't really have a stable industry/economy basis to support the mortgage all the way through if they do buy a home.  It doesn't look to me as though my generation is going to have a whole lot of security to pass on, even if they do manage to somehow get by.

            It isn't just about being productive, it's about being critical.  Productive for who, for what?  For how long, even?  If no one is critical, it seems to me many people will never be especially productive of wealth they could keep.  The system of brands (low employment, low security, companies that exist primarily for their very top to hold onto a lot of currency often stashed in other places or masked as having convenient secondary purposes) and capital isn't arranged to actually allow them be (not to mention racism often slapping some way down before they can even start).

            Yes, some things are "just" unfair at the moment -- because people keep organizing it so, and telling each other it must be so for lack of a better idea.  Or for fear of pessimism or disruption even!  "Who wants to rock the boat?  Who knows what might happen if some upstart went and TRIED something?!"  But some things are so unfair that if you study the reality, some people very rarely have a chance.  And telling them that they do, they must, or they better act like they do or else they're being a less than good and full human being, is just feeding false consciousness then. 

             Sometimes it ends up feeding nagging social problems, too.  What happens when the kids who think they "deserve" to live a stable life (never mind become star entertainers or athletes, which seems to be a grand diversion of choice)  if only they would keep banging their heads against a wall find out, there's actually no way there from here?  Is it really any nicer than what happens when people think they're "entitled" to some support with basic necessities?  It might even be worse, I would expect.  Maybe there's not only no way, but they've blown what little they had "investing" and now they're in the land of negative, hard up and angry faster than they would have been otherwise.  Though the system may be biased to drive them that way anyway. 

              It doesn't sound optimistic, no.   Umm, so sorry for you...  Maybe the most obvious "strength" some kids have in the system we have, is selling cocaine.  What then?  But what if being a little cold and analytical actually explains a few things that keep happening?  Then either you say, "Well that's just life and the cost of some people elsewhere being productive and feeling good," or you get involved taking some risks maybe, but trying to say what the problems are and see if anyone dares improve the setup somewhere, so more people would really have appreciable chances.

   

[Valthazar]

I'm defining 'productive good' for a person, as being able to live a personally-satisfying, stable, content life.  Again, I'm not disagreeing with many of the things you are saying.  But on an individual level, the minute you let pessimism or the reality of how "bad" things are seep into your mind, that's the instant that goals become impossible.

There's a lot of people who have trouble losing weight because they grew up in households as kids where they ate a lot of fatty foods.  It is extremely hard to break such habits, and statistically they face a much higher barrier in losing weight.  Like what you've described, many of these people are in generational obesity, and you can blame it on the cheap fast food, the habits, and so on.  There is certainly campaigns that are on-going, and starting up, to create more opportunities and support for these people, so that over the long-term, hopefully these inequities can be reduced.

But of those people, the ones that do manage to go out and achieve their goals, told themselves that they can rise above those challenges.  In other words, they accepted their situation, and focused on the end result, regardless of how much effort they would need to put in compared to their peers.  It will be 10x harder for them to achieve, but life isn't about where you start, but in what you achieve.  Everything in life is about attitude.

My family had something like $75 when we first came here, and if you're trying to tell me opportunities don't exist in the USA for people who have a burning desire to achieve personal satisfaction - whatever their goals may be, then you don't understand what having a true lack of opportunities is like in 3rd world countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J0Ahh3UxbM

[alextaylor]

People who get into politics often believe something on one end. Then they get called out on it. Then they defend it past the point where it gets extreme.

"I don't like gays"
"Why?"
"Because they're always trying to fuck my butt"
"What? No. That's stupid. You're stupid for thinking that"
"No it's not. The bible says it's bad"
"Why do you even believe your dumb bible. It says abortion is bad too, but you just ignore that too"
"I never said abortion is not bad. Abortion is bad too"
"If that's what you believe then do something about it or you're a hypocrite"
"Fuck you. Why are you opposing this anyway? Don't you believe in the Bible? If you don't, then you're evil"
"What does Bibles have to do with being good?"
"Because every good person believes in God"
"No they don't. Fuck you. I'm atheist now."

Person 1 becomes a hardcore Conservative. Person 2 becomes a hardcore Liberal.

Now take these individuals and put them in the public eye. Combine that with the viral social media. Instead of Person 1 vs Person 2, it's now Conservative Senator vs Ten Thousand Angry Liberals. It escalates stupid stances a lot faster.

[Retribution]

People who get into politics often believe something on one end. Then they get called out on it. Then they defend it past the point where it gets extreme.

"I don't like gays"
"Why?"
"Because they're always trying to fuck my butt"
"What? No. That's stupid. You're stupid for thinking that"
"No it's not. The bible says it's bad"
"Why do you even believe your dumb bible. It says abortion is bad too, but you just ignore that too"
"I never said abortion is not bad. Abortion is bad too"
"If that's what you believe then do something about it or you're a hypocrite"
"Fuck you. Why are you opposing this anyway? Don't you believe in the Bible? If you don't, then you're evil"
"What does Bibles have to do with being good?"
"Because every good person believes in God"
"No they don't. Fuck you. I'm atheist now."

Person 1 becomes a hardcore Conservative. Person 2 becomes a hardcore Liberal.

Now take these individuals and put them in the public eye. Combine that with the viral social media. Instead of Person 1 vs Person 2, it's now Conservative Senator vs Ten Thousand Angry Liberals. It escalates stupid stances a lot faster.

*laughs* exactly the point I was trying to make Alex. Though it is too early in the day to laugh this hard! Great example!

[kylie]

There's a lot of people who have trouble losing weight because they grew up in households as kids where they ate a lot of fatty foods.  It is extremely hard to break such habits, and statistically they face a much higher barrier in losing weight.  Like what you've described, many of these people are in generational obesity, and you can blame it on the cheap fast food, the habits, and so on.  There is certainly campaigns that are on-going, and starting up, to create more opportunities and support for these people, so that over the long-term, hopefully these inequities can be reduced.

But of those people, the ones that do manage to go out and achieve their goals, told themselves that they can rise above those challenges.  In other words, they accepted their situation, and focused on the end result, regardless of how much effort they would need to put in compared to their peers.  It will be 10x harder for them to achieve, but life isn't about where you start, but in what you achieve.  Everything in life is about attitude.

Perhaps it's a matter of where your concern is.  Often enough, when people emphasize individual "attitude" or "intiative" or "responsibility" that's done as a way to say that individuals can do anything "if only they put their mind to it," and/or look, a few people over here managed to pull it off, so no one else should be able to succeed unless they can prove they worked equally hard under equally harsh conditions to do it completely alone.  But conditions are rarely all that identical -- they're often just harsh in some other ways, so round and round it all goes when people suggest attempting anything to actually provide a security net or generalize opportunities more across the population.  And it's also a crutch frequently adopted happily by anyone who really wanted fewer to no social programs in the first place, think the Tea Party... 

"Oh, we could do it so surely anyone else can."  But you're simply not in the same place looking at the same obstacles.  You don't know that for sure and you're not taking the time to go in and study the actual obstacles, I would suspect.   

          You say it's "all" about attitude, and that's precisely where it falls apart.  In your own example above, you said there were campaigns by others working at the same time, in the same places, to make more opportunities for those very people.  And you set up a case where the assumption is those campaigns are actually working and have enough membership or enough political clout, something, enough organization perhaps, to actually make a difference.  And presumably no one is picketing them shouting "You're going to hell!" or trying to frame them for terrorism or deprive them (the campaigners) of a chance to get to the voting booth -- or not enough that it stops them. 

            In any case, your example is not all about individual attitude.  It's at least partly about achieving success in an environment where you also assume cooperation, activism, perhaps charity, and maybe social programs as policy platforms.  You're rosily assuming some unspecified degree of the changes I ask for would naturally "happen" without taking up the question of how, and with what sort of resistance those changes are actually facing -- as if the arguments you make were not much the same arguments that very resistance loves to use.  But in fact, they are and they do.

            And when you say talking too much about the "realities," the actual odds facing people, is defeatist, then I think you need to check your definition of reality somewhere.  The odds don't go away simply because people stop talking about them.  Sometimes, you can't even surmount them if you don't talk about them, because you won't plan well for what is really out there.  If you think simply saying that there are systemic obstacles and something should be done about them is a distraction when people should be working their butts off religiously on the assumption it will somehow all work out, then that's completely contrary to the role of the campaigns you put into your own example.

 

[Cyrano Johnson]

Life isn't fair, but by continually reminding yourself of that, you are making it impossible to be successful.  Accept that life isn't fair, and make the best of your situation. 

Wow, you mean Positive Thinking and Believing In Yourself can Achieve Anything? That's a great point Val! Why, I'm sure it's never occurred to anyone who's faced racism, discrimination or misogyny to just Get Out There and Take On That World and Go After Their Dreams! Anyone who recognizes that racism and social injustice exist must obviously just be moping around and complaining, never realizing how easy it is to erase injustice from the world with magical thinking, motivational speeches and Care Bear Stares... but that's all behind me. I am going straight out and buy me a copy of The Secret and I'm going to take this message straight out to every slum, reservation, favela and ghetto in the world, and tell all those Poor Fuckers that they have nobody to blame but themselves for not being Awesomely Middle-Class. After all, look at the EliteFamily! A pure example of success by nothing but Raw Will which I'm sure did not benefit from a single piece of public infrastructure or aid dollar in any form whatever.

That is some Deep Libertarian Thinking right there. This thread has Turned My Life Around!

[Imogen]

Blame and solution are two different things.

Of course people may be dealt a bad hand at birth, but what good does it do to dwell on it? "I am <insert drawback of choice> so I have it rough"

Okay. Perhaps that is so.

But how does this help? Wouldn't it be better to focus on things that you -can- change?

Often that requires a positive outlook on life. Whether it's the decision to pursue an education, to save money for something you need, or whatever... Often, it will require a driving force: you. Sometimes, that isn't enough. Sometimes you try and you fail. That doesn't necessarily happen because you're black/white/from a ghetto/from a wealthy family/etc. It happens to everyone. It's all too easy to fall into the trap of pointing at the obvious hindrance as the cause for failure. Sometimes you may be right but it may also hinder perspective and keep you from looking for other reasons - ones that you can improve upon.

(I am using 'you' for easier typing. It by no means is meant to indicate any reader personally)