Question about Lord of the Rings character(few spoilers!)

Started by Obsidian Isolabella, December 15, 2014, 08:45:54 PM

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Obsidian Isolabella

I know that some of the people who've read the books don't like Lord of the Rings, but I am actually a big fan of them. I never read the books and have only seen the movies.

This means some information I don't have unfortunately, and one of my pondering questions is about Gandalf thanks to the Hobbit movies. *Very excited about this week and the last movie! <3*

Did Gandalf and Lady Galandria(spelling?) fall in love at some point? The unexpected journey movie kind of .... hints at it with some scenes. And from some trailers I've seen that she comes to rescue Gandalf I think in the old fortress. Maybe they are just really close friends, but it seems like more to me.. The way Gandalf looks at  her and how she speaks to him.. It is just kind of intense at times.

So I was wondering if anyone had answers for me. :)

Delibee

I'm sure there's a mob of angry Tolkieniers ready to protest this idea, but I figured since I'm here and I just finished the whole series pretty recently, I'd try to chime in first. The answer is no, not even a little. This was something that Jackson did with the Hobbit movies. In the books, Galadriel is married and doesn't have any hint of a romantic relationship with anyone else. I think Celeborn, the husband, appears very briefly in the Lord of the Rings movies, but his part is downplayed to being almost nonexistent.
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Oniya

There is nothing in any of Tolkien's works that suggests that she and Gandalf are anything more physically intimate than friends, although as holders of two of the Three rings given to the Elves - Gandalf was given Narya and Galadriel held Nenya - they may have had a bond in the knowledge of what the fate of the One Ring, for good or ill, would bring for Middle Earth.
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Obsidian Isolabella

Quote from: Oniya on December 15, 2014, 08:59:54 PM
There is nothing in any of Tolkien's works that suggests that she and Gandalf are anything more physically intimate than friends, although as holders of two of the Three rings given to the Elves - Gandalf was given Narya and Galadriel held Nenya - they may have had a bond in the knowledge of what the fate of the One Ring, for good or ill, would bring for Middle Earth.

I think there is at the very least some kind of very strong friendship bond because of interactions you see between them in the Hobbit movies. Or maybe I'm crazy, but some of the scenes just makes it appear like they are very close.

Inkidu

Wizards, such as they are, are quite enigmatic in general. I think the most that's ever said about them ever is that they came from across the sea, and there's two blue ones that don't make an appearance anywhere in the four books of the main Ring Saga, and I don't think The Simerilion goes into it either. (I know I probably spelled that wrong).
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Obsidian Isolabella

I remembered that Galadriel is married because her husband appears in the Fellowship of the Ring movie. Like for one or two scenes in their Kingdom after Gandalf is lost. I thought maybe it was something like she married him for duty, since she seems the type to do that, and perhaps something happened with Gandalf? But, it can just as easily be seen as a deeply forged bond between ring bearers whose rings are connected. Or very good friends.

It was just something I wondered about since I know my knowledge isn't as extensive as most of the many Tolkien fans are. I've thought about getting into the books, but I'm not sure I am one of the people who can. The Harry Potter latter books of 500-700 pages drove me crazy with the length, so yeah. >_<

consortium11

Quote from: Raven's Seduction on December 15, 2014, 10:20:30 PM
It was just something I wondered about since I know my knowledge isn't as extensive as most of the many Tolkien fans are. I've thought about getting into the books, but I'm not sure I am one of the people who can. The Harry Potter latter books of 500-700 pages drove me crazy with the length, so yeah. >_<

The Lord of the Rings isn't actually that long. While different versions and formatting obviously change it most editions are somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 pages... which sounds massive but remember, you're actually dealing with three different books, each somewhere around 350-400 pages long. The Silmarillion (which is largely background/world building information) is slightly shorter then the other individual books and the Hobbit much shorter.

For a quick comparison the longest of the individual Lord of the Rings novels is just under 190,000 words; that's less than Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

jouzinka

I agree that there isn't even a tiny hint in any of the books (LotR, Hobbit or Silmarillion) about Galadriel and Gandalf harboring any tender feelings towards each other.

BUT

Galadriel and Gandalf know each other, at least in passing, since the Years of the Trees in Valinor - since her birth. That's then thousand years plus some millennium or two. Gandalf knows all about her greatest shame, her deepest sorrow, and her curse. They are both Ringbearers, they are both members of the White Council. At this point he is one of the very few (in Middle Earth) who have seen Valinor (not her husband), the home she is banished from.

The bond may not be friendship, but even if it was camaraderie or familiarity, it has to be strong.
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jouzinka

Same as all the Noldor who left Valinor after the destruction of the Trees - the Curse of Mandos, alternately Doom of the Noldor. <- Both contain major Silmarillion spoilers.
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Obsidian Isolabella

Maybe I missed it, but then how do the elves return to Valinor at the end of LOTR? Or was it in that summary? Might have missed it.

jouzinka

#11
When Eärendil first sailed to the West and found (again) the way to Valinor, he got message to the Valar and the remaining Elves in Valinor about what was happening in Middle-Earth. The Valar sent a host to Middle Earth and the First Age ended (sorry for spoilers). The Valar kept the way to the West open then, but the ban on the Noldor was not lifted and every soul was judged. Galadriel was eventually permitted to come back because of her active work against evil during the Second and Third Age, culminating in the scene when Frodo offers her the Ring and she says: "I passed the test, I will go into the West and remain Galadriel."

Only special ships can reach Valinor, that's what Arwen refers to when she tells Elrond: "Whether by your will or not, there is no ship now that can bear me hence." (This was probably in the extended editions only)

And not every Elf is a Noldo - there are races among Elves, just like there are among Men (Gondorians, Rohirrim etc).
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Obsidian Isolabella

Quote from: jouzinka on December 16, 2014, 07:26:13 PM
When Eärendil first sailed to the West and found (again) the way to Valinor, he got message to the Valar and the remaining Elves in Valinor about what was happening in Middle-Earth. The Valar sent a host to Middle Earth and the First Age ended (sorry for spoilers). The Valar kept the way to the West open then, but the ban on the Noldor was not lifted and every soul was judged. Galadriel was eventually permitted to come back because of her active work against evil during the Second and Third Age, culminating in the scene when Frodo offers her the Ring and she says: "I passed the test, I will go into the West and remain Galadriel."

Only special ships can reach Valinor, that's what Arwen refers to when she tells Elrond: "Whether by your will or not, there is no ship now that can bear me hence."

And not every Elf is a Noldo - there are races among Elves, just like there are among Men (Gondorians, Rohirrim etc).

Ohhh okay I understand or er I think I do. I get for sure about there are different races among Elves. There are differences you can kind of see in the way certain ones behave. Like Arwen, Galadriel, and Legolas. And that FINALLY explains what Galadriel meant in that scene. I've always wondered and never found an answer, so thank you. :)

I'm personally hoping that they will stop here with the Middle Earth stories. I know after watching the Hobbit I looked up the other characters and what happens to them after Frodo, Galadriel, Bilbo, and Gandalf leave to return to Valinor. I just am hoping that they don't try to do movies on that part of it. I think that this last movie kind of ties everything into place and gives those of us fans who aren't readers of the books backstory as to what happened. Even if a few things are a bit different. Cause I know that certain small details like the relationship between Thorin and Bilbo was altered from the book. Not really relationship either, but just interaction/friendship I guess?

jouzinka

There's a lot of magic that involved shutting off Valinor. I always imagined it as mists and wild storms and disappearance - kind of like the Bermuda triangle - because every ship that sailed West with the intent to find a way to Valinor never returned.

You are welcome. :-) Silmarillion is a great book. It took me a while to sink my teeth in it, but it was an incredibly rewarding read. It gives the Elves an entirely different flavor.

I think they will have to stop filming, since Christopher Tolkien refused to sell them any more rights. They could possibly get something together from the appendixes of LotR (like the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen or the Fall of Númenor), but I hope they let the story rest while it still shines with all its glory.
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Obsidian Isolabella

Thank goodness for that. These days everyone has to go about continuing when they should leave it at a bittersweet ending or a wonderful ending that wraps it all up in a pretty bow(sort of). So I'm also hoping that this is it. Continuing it would just make it really bad unless it was an entirely different movie separated from the two trilogies.

I'm absolutely dying to go to the movies tonight, but being broke doesn't make that kind of thing happen. I can't wait to see it. :D

Annisthyrienne

There is a movie on Youtube about the parents of Aragorn and when he was born into a group of Dunedien (sp?) Rangers.  I think it's called 'Born of Hope' or something like that.  It was pretty good, but I don't know how much it was based on the Tolkien history, maybe not at all.

jouzinka

Born of Hope is a fan funded movie and yes, it was rather good. I liked Hunt for Gollum better. :-)
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Stella

Both of those movies were amazing. Really brilliant, high-quality fan projects.

Lilias

I wouldn't mind seeing The Children of Hurin brought to the big screen. :-) But above all, I hope Blind Guardian do get around to putting together that Nightfall in Middle-Earth stage production they've been tinkering with for a decade. That would be totally
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Obsidian Isolabella

*stares wide eyed* lol, it looks like I have a list of fan-made movies to check out! I didn't even know about those ones, so that definitely is something that I'll have to check out. :D

Drake Valentine

#20
Quote from: consortium11 on December 16, 2014, 06:06:58 PM
The Lord of the Rings isn't actually that long. While different versions and formatting obviously change it most editions are somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 pages... which sounds massive but remember, you're actually dealing with three different books, each somewhere around 350-400 pages long. The Silmarillion (which is largely background/world building information) is slightly shorter then the other individual books and the Hobbit much shorter.

For a quick comparison the longest of the individual Lord of the Rings novels is just under 190,000 words; that's less than Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

^This. I read each book in less than a day.

Which is why I am not too fond of the movies, the movies can only cover so much.

Which is also funny how they are making so many movies off of the Hobbit, I wished the actual trilogy got the same attention cause there is so much left out.

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Obsidian Isolabella

Quote from: Drake Valentine on December 17, 2014, 08:25:32 AM
^This. I read each book in less than a day.

Which is why I am not too fond of the movies, the movies can only cover so much.

Which is also funny how they are making so many movies off of the Hobbit, I wished the actual trilogy got the same attention cause there is so much left out.

I think that probably bound to be the exact opposite of this. Since I watched the movies first and didn't read the books I am probably going to like the movies better. Movies can definitely only cover so much, and if they tried to fit every little detail into a movie it would become much longer than they are and probably lose audiences. I know my mom could barely sit through the Two Towers in theaters because of the length. And because of that she never went to see the Return of the King. I know that for Harry Potter since I read the books before watching the movies I got a bit irritated about scenes I was so looking forward to seeing on screen and they never added them in. But, unfortunately, the same applies to those movies too. Most targeted audiences wouldn't sit still for much longer of lengths then the movies have been for.

mia h

Quote from: consortium11 on December 16, 2014, 06:06:58 PM
The Lord of the Rings isn't actually that long. While different versions and formatting obviously change it most editions are somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 pages... which sounds massive but remember, you're actually dealing with three different books...

From the intro in my hard copy
Quote
The Lord of the Rings is often erroneously called a trilogy, when it is in fact a single novel, consisting of six books plus appendices, sometimes published in three volumes
It was first published in 1954 and they still haven't fixed all the typos in the text
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Obsidian Isolabella

Now that I've seen the final Hobbit movie.... I have to say it left me somewhat disappointed. I saw it in 3D and it was my first movie ever in 3D and for some reason the 3D part of it ruined some of the storyline scenes. The action scenes were pretty awesome with swords and fire, but.... the plot scenes? It was like watching cut/edited behind the scenes footage. I'll have to watch it again in 2D sometime soon, but it wasn't quite worth all the excitement I felt for most of the beginning of it. The middle and ending were pretty good, though.

Zakharra

Quote from: jouzinka on December 16, 2014, 07:26:13 PM
When Eärendil first sailed to the West and found (again) the way to Valinor, he got message to the Valar and the remaining Elves in Valinor about what was happening in Middle-Earth. The Valar sent a host to Middle Earth and the First Age ended (sorry for spoilers). The Valar kept the way to the West open then, but the ban on the Noldor was not lifted and every soul was judged. Galadriel was eventually permitted to come back because of her active work against evil during the Second and Third Age, culminating in the scene when Frodo offers her the Ring and she says: "I passed the test, I will go into the West and remain Galadriel."

Only special ships can reach Valinor, that's what Arwen refers to when she tells Elrond: "Whether by your will or not, there is no ship now that can bear me hence." (This was probably in the extended editions only)

And not every Elf is a Noldo - there are races among Elves, just like there are among Men (Gondorians, Rohirrim etc).

I've read the Silmarillion several times (it is an interesting if a very dry read) and didn't get the impression that the Noldor, or any of the other Elven waves/clans were banned from Valinor after Melkor/Morgoth was defeated. As far as I know the ban was put in place originally to keep those who left Valinor from returning until after Melkor was dealt with. After he was put down they were free to return if they wanted to and any elf that had never seen Valinor could sail to the land. But only elves, or very close special friends, and the wizards can sail to the land which had been removed from the bounds of the earth. So I don't get the impression any test is needed by any elf to pass into Valinor.

Obsidian Isolabella

Quote from: Zakharra on December 17, 2014, 10:13:23 PM
I've read the Silmarillion several times (it is an interesting if a very dry read) and didn't get the impression that the Noldor, or any of the other Elven waves/clans were banned from Valinor after Melkor/Morgoth was defeated. As far as I know the ban was put in place originally to keep those who left Valinor from returning until after Melkor was dealt with. After he was put down they were free to return if they wanted to and any elf that had never seen Valinor could sail to the land. But only elves, or very close special friends, and the wizards can sail to the land which had been removed from the bounds of the earth. So I don't get the impression any test is needed by any elf to pass into Valinor.

This is going to sound weird, but is it possible that some of what is in the Silmarillion can be open to interpretation? I'm flying blind here about this since I didn't read the books so I mean no offense or to sound ignorant. I'm just generally curious if it is like a lot of other stories that leave it open to possible interpretation? I did read the Wiki page or the webpage with the history and it did mention a curse was placed upon the Noldor and... nevermind. I just re-read it to make sure I had it straight in my head. It mentions the Doom of the Noldor or Curse of Mandos I guess that they were warned that great despair or doom would fall upon them because of their actions I'm assuming.

The Hobbit; The Battle of the Five Armies movie spoliers!


Now that I've seen the movie and aren't basing my interpretation of the relationship between Gandalf and Galadriel there are scenes in the movie that suggest a deeper bond than companionship or even friendship. Maybe its one of those things that fans speculate like with most movies/tv shows/books, but there was just something different about the way Galadriel reacts to Gandalf in the movie. I also thought that perhaps it was something they inserted for the movie only? After all, even an Elven Queen/Lady who is married can still hold other affections, platonic or romantic, for someone else. That's the only other option I can see for it.

Stella

I don't think the Silmarillion is open to interpretation. Tolkien is pretty detailed and exact in most cases. His son, Christopher Tolkien, who has been responsible for publishing (most? all?) of his works post mortem is certainly against interpretations of the source material. From what I heard last, he still does not wish to see any of the films, and the films are not permitted to reference anything from the Silmarillion itself. So all their extended bits and pieces  from from the Lotr appendices, not the Silmarillion itself.

I am writing this from memory, so some of that information may now be outdated.

Zakharra, see this page about the Doom of the Noldor. It explains how they were shunned and the doors to Valinor closed to them. Most Elves were not required to undergo any kind of test to sail to Valinor ... just those who'd royally pissed the Valar off, basically. :p

Obsidian Isolabella

Quote from: Stella on December 18, 2014, 12:23:22 AM
I don't think the Silmarillion is open to interpretation. Tolkien is pretty detailed and exact in most cases. His son, Christopher Tolkien, who has been responsible for publishing (most? all?) of his works post mortem is certainly against interpretations of the source material. From what I heard last, he still does not wish to see any of the films, and the films are not permitted to reference anything from the Silmarillion itself. So all their extended bits and pieces  from from the Lotr appendices, not the Silmarillion itself.

I am writing this from memory, so some of that information may now be outdated.

Zakharra, see this page about the Doom of the Noldor. It explains how they were shunned and the doors to Valinor closed to them. Most Elves were not required to undergo any kind of test to sail to Valinor ... just those who'd royally pissed the Valar off, basically. :p

I thought I'd check on that just in case since some movies from books can have that and with a lot of books, etc. there can be that possibility too.

Oniya

Christopher Tolkien is the reason that the D&D race is called 'halflings' and not hobbits.  He's very protective of his father's works, in a good way.
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Inkidu

Quote from: Oniya on December 18, 2014, 08:26:30 AM
Christopher Tolkien is the reason that the D&D race is called 'halflings' and not hobbits.  He's very protective of his father's works, in a good way.
Hobbit was the only fantasy race that wasn't in some kind of folk-lorish use though. ::)

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Elf
and yes, even Orc are all pretty ubiquitous. Though I think Uruk-Hai is still in the Tolkien estate. :)
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Oniya

Quote from: Inkidu on December 18, 2014, 08:38:45 AM
Hobbit was the only fantasy race that wasn't in some kind of folk-lorish use though. ::)

The idea of a race of diminutive, human-like beings was fairly common, though, ranging all the way back into Norse mythology (which Tolkien undoubtedly read.)  It was the specific term 'hobbit' that was his creation and got yanked from early D&D.
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Beorning

Quote from: Inkidu on December 18, 2014, 08:38:45 AM
Hobbit was the only fantasy race that wasn't in some kind of folk-lorish use though. ::)

Goblin
Elf
and yes, even Orc are all pretty ubiquitous. Though I think Uruk-Hai is still in the Tolkien estate. :)

You know, I really am surprised that D&D (as well as other fantasy writers...) are allowed to use elves, orcs etc. True, elves and goblins existed before Tolkien... but it was Tolkien who created their classic fantasy form. I've never understood how writing about Tolkien-esque elves isn't considered plagiarism...

I know that when I was coming up with stories involving shape-shifting serpentine humanoids, I really did feel that I was plagiarising Howard... Because, in truth, I did take the idea from him. And writers using elves *are* taking the idea from Tolkien...

Vorian

Let me ask you this, would you also consider anyone writing stories about certain classic fairy tails to be plagiarizing Disney simply because they've produced the best known adaptation of the material? Because I don't really see the fundamental difference - Elves predate Tolkien and most uses of them I've seen either put their own spin on them, or draw more directly from the original mythology.
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Beorning

Quote from: Vorian on December 18, 2014, 01:03:07 PM
Let me ask you this, would you also consider anyone writing stories about certain classic fairy tails to be plagiarizing Disney simply because they've produced the best known adaptation of the material? Because I don't really see the fundamental difference - Elves predate Tolkien and most uses of them I've seen either put their own spin on them, or draw more directly from the original mythology.

I'm not an expert on elves, as they aren't part of the folklore back here, but is their mythological version really close to Tolkien's version? I was under the impression that mythological elves were more like Santa's elves or the fairies.

Meanwhile, D&D, as well as at least some of the fantasy fiction, defines elves as immortal / long-living humanoids with an air of mystery to them. That approach is directly taken from Tolkien, I don't think it was part of the folklore...

Vorian

In a general sense, yes. Tolkien drew heavily on Norse mythology in general as I recall, mixed with some Christian influence. What you're thinking of is more in line with fairies - though there is some overlap in concept, actually.
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consortium11

Tolkien's elves come almost entirely from Norse mythology, including the use of similar names for a number of characters/locations. Remember, Tolkien's first love was Norse folklore... as boy he learned Old Norse so he could translate texts in his own time and his professional career went much the same way. Many parts of his work are basically lifted wholesale from Norse folklore; Gandalf is an obvious take on Odin in his wanderer guise, the Balrog and collapsing bridge are near identical to Surt and the collapse of Asgard's bridge, as mentioned the elves (and also the dwarfs) are pretty much identical to the ones found in Norse epic poems and the Rohirrim's culture and language are very close to the Anglo-Saxon's Tolkien spent his life researching and teaching about (to the extent that he paraphrases historical poems). There's also an epic Finnish piece (Kalevala) which has a similar overall plot to Tolkien's work.

In essence what Tolkien did with his work was do a homage to his influences for a modern audience; he's combining and reinterpreting classic European mythology to create folklore of his own.

RubySlippers

The Lady was a wrath of good Bad Ass come on she pretty much on her own using her ring of power blasted Sauron and the Nine at the same time to the East obliterating his mortal form such as it was -scary!

It did weaken her a lot but come on it was her, the ring in robes and barefoot with two others harassing the Nine buying her time to heal Gandalf and get pissed off, you don't want to piss her off.

But I think they were just good friends.

Obsidian Isolabella

Quote from: RubySlippers on December 19, 2014, 05:34:27 PM
The Lady was a wrath of good Bad Ass come on she pretty much on her own using her ring of power blasted Sauron and the Nine at the same time to the East obliterating his mortal form such as it was -scary!

It did weaken her a lot but come on it was her, the ring in robes and barefoot with two others harassing the Nine buying her time to heal Gandalf and get pissed off, you don't want to piss her off.

But I think they were just good friends.

Yeah that was pretty awesome with how she just zapped Sauron to the East. She was pretty terrifying in an awesome way which was surprising for me since I've only ever watched the movies and seen so little of her.

But, just before then, when she comes to rescue Gandalf, the scene between them is so... intimate. Not necessarily romance, though, but it just seemed very intimate to me. Perhaps it's different for every person who see's it? I definitely think there is a strong bond between them it's just hard to figure out what it could be since there are a few possibilities like the rings they share being twins or whatnot.

I really want to rewatch the battle of the five armies though because I saw it in 3D and it ruined some of it for me. The scenes were just weird in 3D when they weren't in battle.

Inkidu

I'm a little miffed with the ending of the Hobbit movies because they took some liberties with who did and did not survive the Battle of the Five Armies.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Namely, I'm pretty sure no one in the dwarf party died.

So by the end of the film my eyes were rolling nonstop. :P
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jouzinka

The movies followed the books closely in this matter, Inki.


They did change the cause/reason, but not the numbers.
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Oniya

Quote from: Inkidu on December 23, 2014, 06:59:00 AM
I'm a little miffed with the ending of the Hobbit movies because they took some liberties with who did and did not survive the Battle of the Five Armies.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Namely, I'm pretty sure no one in the dwarf party died.

So by the end of the film my eyes were rolling nonstop. :P

I remember many deaths, and a conversation between Bilbo and Gandalf about that when Bilbo showed back up, as well as Thorin's speech starting 'O child of the kindly West'
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Inkidu

Quote from: Oniya on December 23, 2014, 07:15:13 AM
I remember many deaths, and a conversation between Bilbo and Gandalf about that when Bilbo showed back up, as well as Thorin's speech starting 'O child of the kindly West'
Well I stand corrected. I haven't read the book in a couple of years (despite having read it 30 times for my thesis, but I wasn't looking for actual deaths only party motivations).

If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Deamonbane

Yeah, I do remember that Thorin and his closer kin die, and I was afraid that they would try to take that out of the movie to make it more of a happy ending, since Thorin was such a popular character. But he dies, Dain Ironfoot takes his place as King Under the Mountain, and plays a pretty big part in the War for the North.
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Oniya

It does provide one of the fairytale 'morals' to the story. 

“Child of the kindly West, I have come to know, if more of us valued your ways - food and cheer above hoarded gold - it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell.”

* Oniya always gets a little misty-eyed at that line.
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Drake Valentine

Finally watched Hobbit movies(three hour movies.)

Is it me, or did Thorin's size change between the movies? He was like human tall/ tall as Gandalf than somewhere he was much shorter. >.< Like when they got to human village he was shorter and just slightly taller than the dwarves. But in the first movie he stood as tall as Gandalf/the Orc Azog and I think he was same height through earlier portion of second movie.

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jouzinka

Quote from: Drake Valentine on January 05, 2015, 03:35:14 PM
Finally watched Hobbit movies(three hour movies.)

Is it me, or did Thorin's size change between the movies? He was like human tall/ tall as Gandalf than somewhere he was much shorter. >.< Like when they got to human village he was shorter and just slightly taller than the dwarves. But in the first movie he stood as tall as Gandalf/the Orc Azog and I think he was same height through earlier portion of second movie.
The size difference between Kili and Tauriel changed all the time in the last movie. I think it's the problem of the doubles mingling in and the actual actors kneeling when interaction is needed and camera angle can't suffice.
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Drake Valentine

Quote from: jouzinka on January 05, 2015, 03:46:26 PM
The size difference between Kili and Tauriel changed all the time in the last movie. I think it's the problem of the doubles mingling in and the actual actors kneeling when interaction is needed and camera angle can't suffice.

I didn't notice theirs, they seemed less obvious in their height, but Thorin, man did he shrunk suddenly. Guess long adventuring makes ruling dwarves shorter. Hell, when I first saw him in the first movie I wondered what was a human doing in a dwarf clan. >.>

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Beorning

So... I just watched The Battle of Five Armies.

Hmm. It was... a fine movie, I guess. Although it did leave quite cold, I must say. Somehow, for me, it didn't have the magic of the LOTR trilogy. Maybe I've just grown out of Tolkien...

I especially didn't like the way that purging of Dol Guldur was done. In the book, it was said (IIRC) that the White Council ousted Sauron from there. White Council... as in, all of the wizards, right? I've always assumed some kind of military force assisted them there, too. Meanwhile, in the movie, Jackson made it so that Sauron was defeated just by Galadriel, Elrond and Saruman. Who arrive them completely on their own. Come on, wouldn't they take some elven bodyguards with them, at least?

Also, while I did like the way Jackson presented Sauron's form, I didn't like his duel with Galadriel. Too much obvious, flashy magic! Galadriel's distorted voice and glowing eyes were just cheap. The whole sequence was something out of a kitschy comic book movie...

BTW. Am I the only one that finds the idea of Galadriel arriving to Dol Guldur only in a light robe and *barefoot*... silly?

Oh, and another observation: don't you think that the orcs were mightly nerfed in this movie? They were presented as big and scary... way bigger and scarier then the orcs in LOTR. Many of them were quite heavily armoured, too. And yet... they kept being defeated quite easily. It really strained my belief that these orcs... these trained warriors bred for war... couldn't defeat Bard's people. Who were tired, hungry and completely untrained...

BTW 2.: These CGI orcs looked way less convincing that the orcs from LOTR...

It's not that I'm complaining - it was an entertaining movie. It's just that there were details that seemed off to me...

jouzinka

The White Council is consisting of the ringbearers of the three Elven rings and most of the Istari - the Wizards - that were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/White_Council

That means: Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel and Radagast (and Glorfindel, but he was generally erased from the movie-verse) and they were all present in the scene and influenced it. The Council is secret, used by the forces of good to be up-to-date on what the forces of evil are doing, so the fewer people that know about them and what they are doing where, the better.

I agree that Glorfindel could have been there and Elrond would definitely take his sons Elladan and Elrohir, were they not completely erased from the movie-verse too. But otherwise it still applies that the council is secret. I am glad I finally saw Elrond wield a sword, but I would have really liked to see Galadriel show us what she can do with a sword. Given events in Silmarillion, I find it entirely possible, though, that she renounced fighting, but that's just a speculation, but it would explain why she's not suited up in any kind of armor and barefoot (since she pretty much does walk around barefoot). Come to think of it, Saruman wasn't armed to the teeth either.

Galadriel doesn't wield magic. Her only "power" is telepathy (the best word I can come up with for her power) and mental resistance coming from having to live with it for thousands of years. Since Sauron at this point wasn't corporeal anymore and only his mind existed, she was probably the best person to choose in the battle of minds. I took the whole scene as more symbolic - to battle evil you need to descend into the deepest darkest corners of your soul and she did just that, used Ëarendil's light as a token to strengthen her and guide her, then threw it all at Sauron and hoped for the best.

Basically, the only thing she did was win a loud argument.

There are various breeds (and cross breeds) of Orcs - http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcs - and generally they aren't particularly smart in any of their variation, their strength lies in their overwhelmingly larger numbers.

Personally, I liked the CGI on Azog and Bolg a lot more than I did the prosthetics on Lurtz and Uglúk in LotR. I feel like it impaired the actors way too much.
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Beorning

Quote from: jouzinka on January 17, 2015, 05:43:38 PM
The White Council is consisting of the ringbearers of the three Elven rings and most of the Istari - the Wizards - that were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/White_Council

That means: Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel and Radagast (and Glorfindel, but he was generally erased from the movie-verse) and they were all present in the scene and influenced it.

Ah, but note that the LOTR Wiki you linked to also mentions Cirdan... as well as other unnamed members :)

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The Council is secret, used by the forces of good to be up-to-date on what the forces of evil are doing, so the fewer people that know about them and what they are doing where, the better.

I agree that Glorfindel could have been there and Elrond would definitely take his sons Elladan and Elrohir, were they not completely erased from the movie-verse too. But otherwise it still applies that the council is secret.

I'd say that there are ways of operating in secret... For once, Elrond and Galadriel could have easily find a small cadre of trustworthy warriors that would assist them without boasting about it all around the Middle-Earth :) Overall, I really can't buy into the idea of all these important and influential people going into deadly combat completely on their own. They aren't superheroes who defeat the forces of evil all by themselves.

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Galadriel doesn't wield magic. Her only "power" is telepathy (the best word I can come up with for her power) and mental resistance coming from having to live with it for thousands of years. Since Sauron at this point wasn't corporeal anymore and only his mind existed, she was probably the best person to choose in the battle of minds. I took the whole scene as more symbolic - to battle evil you need to descend into the deepest darkest corners of your soul and she did just that, used Ëarendil's light as a token to strengthen her and guide her, then threw it all at Sauron and hoped for the best.

But, if Galadriel doesn't wield any magic, then what did she do to that orc she saved Gandalf from? She seemed to blast him with some sort of magic energy wave...

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There are various breeds (and cross breeds) of Orcs - http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcs - and generally they aren't particularly smart in any of their variation, their strength lies in their overwhelmingly larger numbers.

I can agree that orcs aren't necessarily smart... but they surely are tough and savage fighters. They really should've put up a better fight, especially against the people of Laketown...

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Personally, I liked the CGI on Azog and Bolg a lot more than I did the prosthetics on Lurtz and Uglúk in LotR. I feel like it impaired the actors way too much.

Really? When it comes to me, I absolutely loved Lurtz, as well as Gothmog. They really looked close to what I picture orcs like in my head. Azog and Bolg looked like something out of a computer game... also, Bolg's armour was just ridiculous.

jouzinka

Círdan is old. He is actually older than old. At the beginning of LotR he is shown with Galadriel and Gil-Galad receiving a ring and at the end of LotR he is shown rather elder behind Galadriel and Celeborn, leaving Middle Earth. That's the sum of his screentime - 5 seconds or so. Plus, throughout the Hobbit movie trilogy, the Council is pictured as being consisting of Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond and Saruman - they omitted Radagast from the meetings too - it would make even less sense to suddenly give an appearance to a bearded Teleri Elf and have the audience exclaim in unison "Who the f** is that and why haven't we seen him before?!" Plus, up until this point they didn't know that Sauron was to be feared and that he was gathering strength and that he was in Dol Guldur - all they know is that Gandalf told Radagast to keep an eye on the fortress. When the Nine appeared, she was duly scared and surprised. Yes, they went to free him from imprisonment, but I suspect that in this case Elrond and Saruman were the bodyguards/reinforcements. And the link mentions that it is assumed that other people were also members, but none other was confirmed by Tolkien. I would assume, then, that Thranduil would be one of them also, for example.

I do concede your point about the Orc. That was... weird. But, she could have just killed/debilitate him with that blast of light - just because we haven't seen the body afterwards doesn't mean there wasn't one.

While I agree they could have put up a better fight, I think Dale was too much of a structure for them and the people of the Laketown knew it too well. Savage fighting is all good, but not when you need to be organized and the Orcs know only one way - forward. Not so useful when you need to form groups and navigate narrow winding streets.

I liked what they did with Azog and Bolg. I thought that to just nail the weapon into Azog's forearm was brilliant, as well as tending wounds with nailed-into-skin steel and Bolg's armor was kickass. When you think how it had to hurt every time he moved, plus constant metal poisoning, no wonder they are so angry and vicious.
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Stella

I agree with the comments about the CGI on the Orcs. It was far better when we had Sala Baker and Lawrence Makoare et al in prosthetics - it felt far more realistic than a heap of CGI, no matter how good the CGI was. It didn't feel real.

Beorning

Quote from: jouzinka on January 18, 2015, 05:01:11 AM
Círdan is old. He is actually older than old. At the beginning of LotR he is shown with Galadriel and Gil-Galad receiving a ring and at the end of LotR he is shown rather elder behind Galadriel and Celeborn, leaving Middle Earth. That's the sum of his screentime - 5 seconds or so. Plus, throughout the Hobbit movie trilogy, the Council is pictured as being consisting of Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond and Saruman - they omitted Radagast from the meetings too - it would make even less sense to suddenly give an appearance to a bearded Teleri Elf and have the audience exclaim in unison "Who the f** is that and why haven't we seen him before?!"

It's true that introducing Cirdan in the last Hobbit movie would be weird... but it only means they should've introduced him in the previous two movies  ;)

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Plus, up until this point they didn't know that Sauron was to be feared and that he was gathering strength and that he was in Dol Guldur - all they know is that Gandalf told Radagast to keep an eye on the fortress.

Oh, they might've not known that Sauron was back, but they knew they were walking into trouble. I mean, whoever was in Dol Guldur, managed to imprison a wizard... So, it'd be prudent of them to take some reinforcements with them.

Also, didn't Gandalf actually say to Radagast in Desolation of Smaug that "in our blindness, our enemy has returned"? They might've not known for sure that Sauron was back, but they've had many reasons to suspect it was the case.

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When the Nine appeared, she was duly scared and surprised. Yes, they went to free him from imprisonment, but I suspect that in this case Elrond and Saruman were the bodyguards/reinforcements. And the link mentions that it is assumed that other people were also members, but none other was confirmed by Tolkien. I would assume, then, that Thranduil would be one of them also, for example.

Oh, Thranduil was actually shown sitting in his kingdom and not giving a damn :) So, it made sense for him not to be at Dol Guldur...

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I do concede your point about the Orc. That was... weird. But, she could have just killed/debilitate him with that blast of light - just because we haven't seen the body afterwards doesn't mean there wasn't one.

True, but that's my point: suddenly, Galadriel displayed powerful magical powers of the "shooting lethal blasts of light" variety. That blast might've been something she got out of her ring, but... do those rings really have these kinds of comic-booky magical qualities?

Also, I'd say that it's really weird that Galadriel alone was able to drive Sauron away. That makes her more powerful than Gandalf and... that's a concept I don't really like.

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While I agree they could have put up a better fight, I think Dale was too much of a structure for them and the people of the Laketown knew it too well. Savage fighting is all good, but not when you need to be organized and the Orcs know only one way - forward. Not so useful when you need to form groups and navigate narrow winding streets.

Did the Laketown people know Dale that well, though? They spent only one night there... Also, I'd say that you're really selling the orcs short.  :-) They really aren't that stupid so they wouldn't be able to fight in narrow streets.

You know what's the biggest case of orc nerfing in the movie? The scene when Thorin and a second dwarf confront *one hundred* of orcs (pardon... "goblin mercenaries") and just *shrug*. Come on!

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I liked what they did with Azog and Bolg. I thought that to just nail the weapon into Azog's forearm was brilliant, as well as tending wounds with nailed-into-skin steel and Bolg's armor was kickass. When you think how it had to hurt every time he moved, plus constant metal poisoning, no wonder they are so angry and vicious.

Bolg's armour might've looked kickass, but it surely wasn't realistic  :-) It's my gripe with Hobbit movies in general: everything in these movies looked soooo fantastic and kickass that it stopped being believeable to me. I much preferred the LOTR movies which managed to blend the fantastic and the realistic into a coherent whole.

Drake Valentine

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/17/the-hobbit-changes_n_6331340.html - 8 Changes in the Movies that weren't in them. There are plenty of spoilers in those lists. I believe those only covered the first two movies.

Most of the changes I knew, except the first one.


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