Spiritual Healing

Started by Sabby, April 17, 2011, 05:06:27 AM

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HairyHeretic

Try tiny invisible demons, they may accept that :)
Hairys Likes, Dislikes, Games n Stuff

Cattle die, kinsmen die
You too one day shall die
I know a thing that will never die
Fair fame of one who has earned it.

Oniya

Quote from: HairyHeretic on May 12, 2011, 03:37:25 PM
Try tiny invisible demons, they may accept that :)

Yes - which should rightfully be subject to spiritual means of treatment.  :)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Hotaru37

Quote from: HairyHeretic on May 12, 2011, 03:09:38 PM
I believe there is a prohibition back in the OT about consorting with magicians of any kind. That'd be my guess.

I do remember something about that but I guess it would depend on your definition of magician.  Though when I think of magicians, doctors are definitely not the first thing that comes to mind. 
"All who wander are not lost."  Some just enjoy the adventure of seeking the unknown.  ^^                

Ons and Offs/A/A's/My Rabbit Hole

Zakharra

 Magicians, witch doctors, apocatharies....

Sabby

I think the reasoning is if you get sick and die, "God intended for you to die" and so seeking medical help is circumventing his wishes. I say 'He' in a totally personifying fashion, because the only people who would ever think like this probably think God is a giant bearded guy in a white robe living in a cloud kingdom...

Lilias

Keep in mind that 'healing', 'treatment' and 'cure' are not synonyms.

Treatment is a process that aims at a cure, which in turn is the removal of disease. It can reach that level, or not; there are plenty of chronic diseases that remain incurable, but treatable.

Healing, on the other hand, deals with the trauma and distress, physical and otherwise, associated with disease. By alleviating such distress (which, ironically, all too often stems from treatment side effects), it allows the patient's system to function optimally for their condition. If mental/emotional/spiritual turmoil can impact work performance or relationships, it can definitely impact the way the physical self deals with health issues.

Of course non-conventional healing methods can be used in situations beyond their scope, but that's only natural when people come to the point where they would do literally anything to get their health back. Don't underestimate the power of facing your own mortality.

Spiritual healing doesn't mean simply healing with the spirit, but also healing of the spirit, which is beyond the scope of medicine. And the spirit can be healed, even if the body dies.
To go in the dark with a light is to know the light.
To know the dark, go dark. Go without sight,
and find that the dark, too, blooms and sings,
and is traveled by dark feet and dark wings.
~Wendell Berry

Double Os <> Double As (updated Feb 20) <> The Hoard <> 50 Tales 2024 <> The Lab <> ELLUIKI

Oniya

I believe the question at hand, though, was why people would completely eschew standard medicine (i.e., doctors) and use prayer to the exclusion of all other methods when ill.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Pointless Digression

Quote from: Sabby on April 17, 2011, 05:06:27 AM
Okay, let me start by saying I'm pretty tolerant of modern religion and I'm also a believer of some paranormal things... and this extends to the ability to heal others through mental stimulation. So, no, I have no problem with believing that there are men and women out who channel their faith in a higher power as a conduit for their gifts.

But what I DO take issue with is when people hail these UNPROVEN abilities as a substitute for good old fashioned medicine. <CUT BY POINTLESS DIGRESSION>

I'm very interested in the juxtaposition of these two paragraphs. Basically, if you say that these abilities are UNPROVEN, how do you justify believing in "the ability to heal others through mental stimulation?"
         

Lilias

Quote from: Oniya on May 13, 2011, 09:38:25 AM
I believe the question at hand, though, was why people would completely eschew standard medicine (i.e., doctors) and use prayer to the exclusion of all other methods when ill.

Hence my third paragraph. Desperate people will push to extremes, and there will always be crooks ready to profit from human distress. Of course if you (try to) use something in a situation it was not meant to handle, it will fail. That is not to say that, properly used, such a tool or method will not work at all. Denying any merit to spiritual healing is as misguided as considering it a cure-all.
To go in the dark with a light is to know the light.
To know the dark, go dark. Go without sight,
and find that the dark, too, blooms and sings,
and is traveled by dark feet and dark wings.
~Wendell Berry

Double Os <> Double As (updated Feb 20) <> The Hoard <> 50 Tales 2024 <> The Lab <> ELLUIKI

Shadax

As someone who practices Reiki 2 and has gotten some significant results, I still say first and foremost if someone asks me to do any healing, (beyond anything simple like a bump on the knee or the like,) "Have you seen a doctor?". Most other holistic/spiritual healers I know do the same - any that don't I avoid and would never recommend to anyone, regardless of how good they or other people think they are. In my opinion, avoiding the doctors is not conductive to helping the person who wants healing, so as someone wanting to help I will always bring that up and insist on it.

What people choose do do regarding their own health is just that, their choice. If they choose spiritual healing above all others then they have that right - But I will still talk to them about all other options, including doctors, that may help them. I think it would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

"The level of subtlety in their relationship is comparable to the level of subtlety possessed by a herd of rainbow unicorns."

Oniya

Quote from: Lilias on May 13, 2011, 11:11:15 AM
Hence my third paragraph. Desperate people will push to extremes, and there will always be crooks ready to profit from human distress. Of course if you (try to) use something in a situation it was not meant to handle, it will fail. That is not to say that, properly used, such a tool or method will not work at all. Denying any merit to spiritual healing is as misguided as considering it a cure-all.

Understood.  I'd actually commented on that back on the first page.  Used in conjunction with other treatments - I'm all for it.  Used to the exclusion of other treatments (especially proven treatments like proper antibiotics for curable diseases) - not so much.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Hotaru37

I feel the same way.  used together is great.  but one can't be switched for the other. 
"All who wander are not lost."  Some just enjoy the adventure of seeking the unknown.  ^^                

Ons and Offs/A/A's/My Rabbit Hole

Jude

Quote from: Lilias on May 13, 2011, 11:11:15 AM
Denying any merit to spiritual healing is as misguided as considering it a cure-all.
Why is it misguided when there is not a shred of double-blinded, properly controlled evidence that any of it actually works in the least?

HairyHeretic

Do you consider it possible that it might work, but that we might not have the means to measure it at this point in time?
Hairys Likes, Dislikes, Games n Stuff

Cattle die, kinsmen die
You too one day shall die
I know a thing that will never die
Fair fame of one who has earned it.

Oniya

Quote from: Jude on May 13, 2011, 12:24:32 PM
Why is it misguided when there is not a shred of double-blinded, properly controlled evidence that any of it actually works in the least?

Anything that makes the patient 'feel better' is going to have an impact on their recovery.  Whether that's a placebo, hearing about well-wishes, a person laying on hands, or a get well card, there is an impact.  A patient that has 'given up' and has lost the feeling that recovery is possible is far more likely to take a turn for the worse.  That's the reason that I would personally consider it as having merit as part of a comprehensive course of treatment.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Pointless Digression

Quote from: HairyHeretic on May 13, 2011, 12:26:13 PM
Do you consider it possible that it might work, but that we might not have the means to measure it at this point in time?

Hey there, Hairy. I realize the question was directed at Jude, but I'd like to take as tab at your question.

Whether or not we have the means to measure how a treatment works is not the same question as to whether a treatment works. Patient outcome is easy (if not simple) to measure, and studies have been done looking at the effects of reiki.

For instance, researchers at the University of Exeter investigated studies published through January 2008 and concluded that most were poorly designed and "the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition." (Lee MS and others. Effects of reiki in clinical practice: A systematic review of randomized clinical trials. International Journal of Clinical Practice 62:947-954, 2008.)

In addition, I question the basic premise underlying Reiki. The idea that practitioners can sense and manipulate "energy fields" had a lot of egg on its face in the early 90s, when the therapeutic touch community was called onto the rug by a ten year old girl. Emily Rosa demonstrated that 21 therapeutic touch  practitioners could not detect her alleged "energy field."

During the tests, the practitioners rested their arms on a flat surface, about a foot apart. Emily then hovered her hand, palm down, a few inches above one of the subject's palms. A cardboard screen prevented the subjects from seeing which of their hands was selected. The practitioners correctly located Emily's hand only  44% of the time. (Rosa L and others. A Close Look at Therapeutic Touch. JAMA 279:1005-1010, 1998)

It might be interesting to investigate whether reiki practitioners can actually sense or transmit "energy," whether reiki "attunements" actually enhance anything, and whether feelings of warmth are accompanied by any measurable change of skin temperature. But I doubt that the reiki community would be any more eager than the TT community to have its fundamental concepts tested.
         

Jude

#41
@Hairy

I recognize that it's definitely possible.  Unfortunately, it's also possible that all of human civilization will be wiped out by an ill-timed/placed gamma ray burst any second now.  Just as you're not preparing for the .00000000001% chance of your life ending at this very moment, it's equally as unproductive to engage in implausible, unestablished, disconfirmed spiritual healing techniques.

@Oniya

It's true that the placebo effect derived from a false treatment can help a patient recover, but there is literally no difference from the placebo boost you get from reflexology or acupuncture and the heightening of spirits you would get from being visited by an old friend, watching one of your favorite movies, or engaging in some other mood-lifting activity.  I think one of the reasons people often get confused by issues like these is that they don't understand what the extent of the Placebo Effect actually is -- it's a completely subjective, nonspecific response that is not associated with healing of any sort, just an alleviation of subjective symptoms.

The Placebo Effect does not repair your body, it simply makes your complex internal cognitive balance disregard more negative stimuli; it's basically yet another exercise in confirmation bias:  I think I should be getting better, so my subconscious filters out some of the pain.

That isn't to say all spiritual healing techniques aren't worth the tradeoff however.  I mean, take prayer for instance, I really doubt it works, but it takes so little effort that I would never tell a sick person not to pray or have others pray for them.  It doesn't take valuable time or resources that someone who is in poor health could better use in different directions.  If you want to mediate, sure, why not.  If you want a massage, go for it.

I'm all about the cost-benefits analysis, but this requires a real, critical glance at what the benefits actually are.  And damn near anything that you actually would have to pay for in the spiritual healing realm does not have a benefit that justifies the cost.