Palestinian doctor loses his family live on Israeli TV.

[Vekseid]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/17/robertson.israel.shocking.news.cnn

Oi.

[Aeval]

I have lived in Israel.I have dual citizenship...I have very close friends there..I worked as a kindergarten teacher in a moshav just outside Kfar Saba..a far suburb of Tel Aviv..The older women would tell me how it was the Arab men from the surrounding villages that would help the Jewish women in the moshav pick the cotton and olives when the Israeli men were called to serve..The Israeli men are in reserves until they are 45...they serve at least a few weeks a year in peaceful times..in times of war they can be called as often as is needed..
This video breaks my heart..no one wins in this..no side is the victor..The everyday person on BOTH sides wants peace..wants to see their children grow up..This war is not being waged by 'the eveyday person'..no war ever is..

[adventurer]

its a deep drama which cries for fresh perspectives and solutions. I have friends in Palestine, Mideast and Israel.

Lets eee how Barack is referring to Mideast. How Europe and world.

Lots of citizen power will be needed too.

My deepest compassion for all people suffering in this conflict.

[adventurer]

www.integralisrael.org

www.che-mideast.org

[PhantomPistoleer]

I get that Jewish people are peace-loving people.

I get that there's a lot of stuff going on in the Middle East that I won't understand.

But seriously, I wish that the Israel military would fucking get a life and stop being assholes.

[adventurer]

Nobody solved the riddle up to now. there are assholes in every part of the world.

The Europeans too did not suceed in creating breakthroughs. Its a task for the whole world.

And maybe the toughest one on the planet..

[PhantomPistoleer]

Nobody solved the riddle up to now. there are assholes in every part of the world.

The Europeans too did not suceed in creating breakthroughs. Its a task for the whole world.

And maybe the toughest one on the planet..

Cool.  Let's start up a "Please stop being assholes, and we're talking about you in particular, Israel" petition.

[adventurer]

Who is you?

Who is we?

Who is us?

[PhantomPistoleer]

Who is you?

Who is we?

Who is us?

::moves mouth, but words are not sync'd::

Your.  Philosophy-fu!  Is.  Better than my.  Philosophy-fu.

Either that.  Or your philosophy-fu.  Is really.  Really, really.  Annoying me.

So you win.  I forfeit.  You may have.  The sacred totem.  Of Judoka Maeda.

::bows::

[adventurer]

I find the third win helpful. See Harvard Negotiation Project:):)

Win-win-win

[RubySlippers]

The Palestinians shouldn't have a large number supporting Hamas then its clear to me enough of the people are with them, maybe if they turned and helped the Isreali's route them the loss of life would be lower. As for this attack well in war things happen that are bad, its war, shit happens.

And I'm upset they stopped again when are they going to get it in Israel no Jewish person there is safe as long as Islamist nutcases are going to go after them and with the support of the people shielding them, save for Egypt and Jorden they have no friends nearby. And we as a worlds side against them as far as I know they never fought an offensive war yet and they are the bad guys in the region?

[adventurer]

I received this letter from 2 Israeli friends ( a man and a woman) in Tel Aviv and Ashkelon. It breathes the spirit of real change and hope. Without bipartisan dilemma:
   

  Gaza Door of Opportunity


"What follows are some reflections about the present & future of Gaza in light of the broader scope of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. We perceive an opening to a possibility for simultaneously muting the radicals while fostering the moderate Build Palestine effort, to be supported glocally:

Right now, in the Gaza Strip, we are witnessing a clear demonstration of a frame of reference on the part of the Israelis that incorporates rational systemic thinking equipped with superior technology, strategic, calculative resources defending and dominating a less sophisticated, yet nonetheless relentless, belligerent faction of Hamas offensive (with access to limited technologies, under challenging life conditions). Israel is definitive in its resolve to defend and defeat this most aggressive element of the Palestinian society in order to protect itself; particularly its southern population.

This is a tough lesson for Hamas, Hezbollah and the entities and states that support them. However, an Israeli defensive defeat over Hamas in Gaza will unlikely contribute to stabilization of the Palestinian-Israeli relationship. More likely, it will create sure setback and delays in Palestinian trust and recognition of Israel's aim, willingness and ability to maintain conditions for peaceful co-relations.

Looking deeply, there is an opportunity at hand for a greater systematic and longer-view vision for action that could be taken by Israeli, Palestinian and world leaders, IF they dare to take such a route of wisdom, and this may serve to soften effects and perceptions of the current stance in Gaza. If Israel, were to simultaneously, while defending itself as it must, begin executing plans to evacuate the Settlements, this could go a long way to prove their commitment to a Palestinian state and show that the problem at hand is not with moderate Palestinians but with the dangerous Hamas faction irresponsible even to its own people.

Israel settlements and Arab-Israeli citizenry are two main flame fronts of internal struggle in Israel. While the Arab-Israeli citizens seek recognition as equals, a Hamas defeat may effect further separation from the Israelis even whilst the intra-Palestinian tribal-power groups struggles between Fatah and Hamas also are at powerful play in the field. Israeli dismantling of the Settlements may go far to reduce resentment over the current situation in Gaza, the terrible loss of life, and demonstrate genuine Israeli support for the emergence of a peaceful and sustainable Palestinian state.

Swift action of Settlement disbandment, clear and decisive action by Fatah in its intent in building an emergent, healthy Palestinian state along with Israeli support will counter criticism against the moderates because even a defeat of a defiant Hamas may broaden its popularity while weakening that of Fatah.

We propose a period of time wherein a “social plan” for supporting emergence of political parties, leadership training will help to prepare the Fatah family to spawn multi-party system out of its internal factions. And enable multi-political discourse of vision for its future as a legitimate and viable national state of Palestine. After this time period, with Israeli and international support, the population would be readied to hold elections. (Of course, we are not experts in Palestine politics but we know they are capable and seeking change and this is simply one imagined scenario for that possibility: http://buildpalestine.org).

This latest eruption of Gazan violent struggle under the larger umbrella of the ongoing Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just a local concern but effects us all with global ramifications. World support is essential for this bold Israeli action of removing the Settlements. For example, the insightful incoming President of the U.S., Mr. Obama could meet with the potential Israeli Prime Ministers along with European co-sponsorship and assure financial support for this. In this same example, the Jewish American community can play a major influential role.

Added to the above, as we all know - we have a unique world economic crisis right now which asks for huge injections of money. Supporting Israel and Palestine positive emergent future as described could be a good way to do that and this is in the world's best interest.

Is this a realistic and viable possibility with probability for positive outcome?

What do we need to do in order to catalyze such movement?

For the sake of those people whose lives have been lost and irrevocably altered, we pray that we all see more deeply, align more widely and have the courage to act on these visions."

[Dashenka]

It's really shocking how the United Nations are quick to interfere when Russia blocks off gas to Ukraine or when Russia 'invades' Georgia but does absolutely jack shit here. Israel is good friends the USA and nobody likes Hamas, so the whole world seems to think... "oh well, it's our friends who started it and it's a good cause."

This subject really pisses me off. I have no symphaties towards Hamas or anything but in my opinion Israel crossed a few lines. Shooting at UN personel and nobody punishing them for it. Two thousand children and women have died by the hands of Israel and what is the whole world doing? Absolutely nothing.

I am deeply deeply ashamed that I consider myself to live in a nation that supports the UN. Little conflicts AGAINST the UN friends are quickly resolved but when some UN friend commits genocide it's perfectly okay.

Am I the only who finds this disturbing?

[adventurer]

Dashenka,

abolutely disturbing!

Where do you live right now!

A.

[Dashenka]

I still travel a lot between Amsterdam and Moscow. Why?

[adventurer]

You said:

".. am deeply deeply ashamed that I consider myself to live in a nation that supports the UN. Little conflicts AGAINST the UN friends are quickly resolved but when some UN friend commits genocide it's perfectly okay."

So I was interested what nation you are referring to.):)

[DefectiveTurret]

Heartbreaking. I cried a little bit.

[Mathim]

Every race and every country has blood on their hands for one reason or another. It's in our nature to kill each other, as 'Ahnuld' so eloquently put it in Terminator 2. Too bad religion can't be blamed for this problem anymore, it's too deep for a single cause to be behind it any longer.

[Zakharra]

Every race and every country has blood on their hands for one reason or another. It's in our nature to kill each other, as 'Ahnuld' so eloquently put it in Terminator 2. Too bad religion can't be blamed for this problem anymore, it's too deep for a single cause to be behind it any longer.

  What is it with you and religion? It's not that, just that people are arseholes to each other.

[Apple of Eris]

It's really shocking how the United Nations are quick to interfere when Russia blocks off gas to Ukraine or when Russia 'invades' Georgia but does absolutely jack shit here. Israel is good friends the USA and nobody likes Hamas, so the whole world seems to think... "oh well, it's our friends who started it and it's a good cause."

This subject really pisses me off. I have no symphaties towards Hamas or anything but in my opinion Israel crossed a few lines. Shooting at UN personel and nobody punishing them for it. Two thousand children and women have died by the hands of Israel and what is the whole world doing? Absolutely nothing.

I am deeply deeply ashamed that I consider myself to live in a nation that supports the UN. Little conflicts AGAINST the UN friends are quickly resolved but when some UN friend commits genocide it's perfectly okay.

Am I the only who finds this disturbing?

The UN regularly tries to pass measures condeming Isreal for its action, but Security Council measures in that regard have routinely been veto'd by the USA. *shrug* It's not the world that gives Israel the green-light...

Anyway, it does take two to tango as they say, and while I personally think the actions of the israeli govt in seizing lands and not allowing the palestinians who were forcibly evacuated between the 50's and 70's to return to their homes in violation of UN resolutions on the right of peoples to return to their homes is reprehensible, the resort to attacks against civilians by extremist Palestinian organizations don't help matters.

[Mathim]

  What is it with you and religion? It's not that, just that people are arseholes to each other.

I'm saying if religion was the singular cause of this conflict it would be a little easier to deal with the situation but it's no longer even a significant factor, there's way more to it than just the religious aspect of fighting over the Holy Land and all that.

[RubySlippers]

Simple truth is neither side is going to give. Israel is still building settlements and fences all over Gaza and Hamas which was elected into power as the major Palstinian Party is amply supported to keep harassing Israel. Peace there is impossible.

[Zakharra]

 Too true. Israel isn't helping by building settlements in Palestinian land.

[SomethingWycked]

Simple truth is neither side is going to give. Israel is still building settlements and fences all over Gaza and Hamas which was elected into power as the major Palstinian Party is amply supported to keep harassing Israel. Peace there is impossible.

And there's the rub.

Both sides want the land, both sides hate each other for previous violent actions and religious differences.

Anytime the official shooting stops, the radical Muslims and Hamas get right to work with random explosions. Israel retorts with excessive force, and creates more radical Muslims that hate them.

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

[Martel]

I've only heard that Israel was being fired on and trying to get the other side to stop. However, they didn't, so Israel obviously shouldn't just sit their while missiles are being launched at their country. Granted I saw this a while ago, and am not sure what's changed.

If I'm entirely miss informed, just ignore me I guess.

[SomethingWycked]

Well, Martel, its hard to find a straight answer. The people who are anti-Israel tell you things about how Hamas has every right to attack Israel, and the people who are pro-Israel tell you how the world is unjust to Israel and they have every right to defend themselves from the aggressive Hamas.

If you go by the numbers, Israel gets attacked more often, but kills many more people in retaliation with less attacks.

I've been pro-Israel for a very long time... I just try to remain informed on all sides of any issue I talk about :P From what I've seen, Israel makes honest efforts at peace and the militant Muslims throw it back in their face. But that's just my perception of the facts I've seen.

[Martel]

Ahh, I see, well, thanks for that info. Honestly, as for the retaliation, I think any side that gets attacked first with things like missiles and bombs has every right to use as much force as necessary to stop it from continuing. I have a strong belief that no matter how many words you say or how loud you say them it's not going to throw that missile heading for your head off coarse.

P.S. You avatar made me lol. <.<

[Apple of Eris]

I don't think building settlements the United Nations declared illegal in land that is recognized as Palestinian, then building a wall that cuts through Palestinian territory and cities cutting off people from their places of employment, families, etc, is really an 'honest effort at peace'.

The problem is both sides have hardliners that want to keep fighting it out and not make any compromizes. Both sides are in the wrong in my not-so-humble opinion. *shrug*

[SomethingWycked]

The problem I have, Apple... well, let me step back.

The Jews are there. They've been there since just after World War 2. They forced their way in (not the best course of action when viewed from the modern political stage) and fought for the territory against Muslim armies who didn't want them to be there, and won. So they're there. At that point, the two possible courses of action are: acceptance and peace, or genocide. The last 60 years has shown definitively that the chosen course of action against Israel is genocide.

There have been long years of peace, but repeatedly the Jews have been shown that, given the chance, their neighbors would wipe them off the face of the planet. I'd be a little aggressive with grabbing buffer zones and doing everything possible to defend my people and my territory if I was in their shoes, too.

Granted, I'm former military and I feel the same way about my house. If there were constant threats and attacks on my house, you're damn right I'd be building a wall around it for defense, and given the reason and opportunity, I'd be building another wall on nearby land that doesn't belong to me, too. Chastise me, fine me, whatever you feel like doing, I'm going to do whats necessary to protect me and mine. So when I say "honest effort at peace", I mean they stop shooting when they say they're going to stop shooting- hoping the other side will do the same.

I do have to agree with you that there are hardliners on both sides who don't want to compromise, though, and that's a huge source of tension that helps keep the fighting going.

[OldSchoolGamer]

I'm not overly enamored with the nation of Israel.  But compared to their neighbors, they're a light on a hilltop.  Hell, at least Israel regards women as fully human, which puts them above nine-tenths of the Muslim world right there.

Jews have a longer historical presence in the Middle East than Muslims do.  So I think the Muslim world needs to stop whining about the precious 1.5% or so of "their" land that Jews currently live on, and focus on entering the modern era.  I have a hard time with nations that stone rape victims to death and forbid women from driving or being out alone lecturing others on human rights issues.

[Apple of Eris]

First off, not all muslim nations 'stone rape victims' or 'don't allow women to drive'. Nice attempt to blanket all muslims as orthodox extremists though.

So really, if say a group of people just moved into say, maryland over the course of a couple decades. Started bombing and shooting the authorities and formed a militia to overthrow the government, then forced a few million Marylanders out of their homes, made the few that remained second-class citizens, and then built a wall around their territory, cutting into Washington DC even though that's been declared by the word as territory belonging to the United States, we should just get over it. Really it isn't much territory right? We've got plenty of other land. And well, those poor marylanders... well we don't really want them in Pennsylvania, but we'll let 'em live in some camps in the south of our state until they can finda new home somewhere else.

I mean come on. Light on top of the hill? What a laugh! In orthodox Jewry, women have stupid rules just like in orthodox islam. They have to stay away from their husbands when menstruating and for seven days after. Dress modestly. Women's prayer groups are forbidden by most circles, in religious court women can't serve as witnesses, etc etc. Totally enlightened.

Jews have a longer presence in the Middle East? Yeah, maybe because Islam was only created in 627 AD while Judaism is estimated to have been founded around 2000 BC. Nice straw-man argument there though of course if you actually compare the ETHNIC groups and not an ethnic group vs a religion (Muslim is not an ethnicity, it's the name given to a follower of Islam). Most of the ethnic groups that adopted Islam lived in the middle east just as long as the jewish groups.

Israel hardly deserves to be placed on some kind of pedestal. I'm not saying the Arab nations surrounding it do either. I'm saying both sides are wrong, both sides need to stop fighting and learn to fucking live together without killing each other and treat each other with the same dignity and respect they'd give to their own people.

[VandalSavage]

I'm uncomfortable with the notion that a nation's domestic politics has any bearing on their use of force.  America has a lot of problems with how it conducts itself domestically, and it rankles when people bring that up as a factor in whether the USA is morally justified to intervene in conflicts abroad.  This is not to say one should not be critical of a nation's domestic politics and cultural attitudes.  It is rather to say that it should have no bearing on the morality of an intervention.

The reason being, interventions have a moral bearing all on their own.  Just because a nation is more humanitarian to its own people than the nation they are attacking does not justify the actions undertaken in the intervention.  And more to the point, nations that are distinguished in their embrace of egalitarian, democratic principles can still inflict tremendously vicious acts of force in an intervention.

For example, I don't think Japanese internment camps rendered our military action against Japan to be morally wrong.  By that same token, though the USA was a more egalitarian and democratic nation than fascist Japan, it deliberately attacked civilian populations as part of a strategy to break the enemy nation's will to fight.

If one removes the domestic attitudes and principles of an intervening nation from judging whether an intervention is moral, then the question becomes an evaluation of the intervention itself.  Factors then become - how necessary is this level of force in response?  How likely is the strategy it is instrumental to capable of achieving a lasting peace? 

Looking at the case of Israel's recent attack against the Palestinian population in the Occupied Territories, one has to wonder at the intent of the force.  Israel, in this instance and in many recent instances, has a tendency to pursue a strategy of total warfare - attacking the civil sector of the enemy territory to paralyze and demoralize it, along with attacking specific military objectives.  Many would argue that Israel's strategy goes too far in this regard - that Israel intends to cripple their surrounding states in order to make certain they cannot pose even the slightest potential threat. 

Others would argue that Israel's strategy is, while harsh, for the greater good of preserving peace.  They say that since Israel is capable of bringing such massive force to bear in order to ensure not only the minimal loss of lives on its own side and the achievement of its military objectives, but also to ensure the infrastructure is so shattered that the state can never effectively marshal arms against them.  This, they argue, preserves Israel's military dominance best.

The problem I have with this latter argument is that the situation in the Occupied Territories is untenable; it cannot survive for long as it is.  The Occupied Territories are largely dependent on foreign aid.  They have exploding populations and increasingly limited space.  Their basic human needs - water, power, commerce - are extremely restricted.  It is, in essence, like a state of siege that only gets worse with time.

One "solution" to the Palestinian's woes, is for them to sign whatever peace accords Israel presents to them.  But even this is likely untenable considering that any two-state solution would need to reverse many of the physical restrictions that Israel's location places on the Palestinian population, and provisions for this have not been made in the accords. 

So, given that such a resolution is not likely, Israel will have to change its strategy.  It cannot merely obliterate and restrict the Palestinian means of survival indefinitely.  This is why Israel's actions are flawed:  Not because a strategy of total warfare is flawed in and of itself.  It would be a different matter if all the suffering this thread addressed was moving to a viable conclusion.  Given that it is not, and that Israel still employs devastating amounts of force to ensure a destablized and unsurvivable Palestinian state, Israel is wrong in its actions.

I want the best for Israel and the Palestinians both.  It cannot be achieved without some "end game" other than having one state starving and subject to the other's will.

[Mnemaxa]

....radioactive glass.  All of it.  All sides.     ~_~

Not really. 

A lot of the problem stem from the quality of the land. Not just it's religious nature, but the actual arable acreage of it.  Land that can be cultivated is so rare in those deserts that every last foot is valuable , more valuable than the oil under it. 

And THAT is a lot of what this war truly stems from.  Who controls the viable land.