Being any kind of conservative sucks

[GloomCookie]

Hello lovelies. Normally, I'm not one to get involved in PROC, but something happened today that I need to get off my chest. While most of you know I almost live in the Approved Box (or rather, on the discord side of the Approved Box), most of you don't know that I identify as a moderate conservative. I have my reasons for doing so, and because of those reasons, I often (but not always) vote Republican, especially in the past few elections.

Details of Inciting incident snipped by staff

That hurt. Like, here it is 15 hours later, and it's still tearing me up inside. The person (I refuse to name names) basically labeled the entire Republican party as Nahzis, and me by association. And I am getting so sick and tired of these insults because I don't fall in line with certain policies. I feel like if I dare say anything that doesn't toe the Democratic Party line, I will be harshly criticized, labeled, and on more than one occasion, outright banned. And I don't want to see Elliquiy, which has been my spiritual home for over a decade turn into that kind of environment.

Now I know, some of you hear that I'm conservative and probably are checking that I'm not in any of your games. Fine, whatever. I like to think of myself as the best kind of conservative: the one who doesn't give a shit. Seriously, if you came up and said "I'm a lesbian and this is my wife" I don't really care. Go be happy, go be miserable, go do whatever the hell you want. It's not my place to judge. I just don't want someone else meddling in my affairs telling me what to do and how to do it. If I want to be a miserable old miser on a hill in a spooky as shit house, then leave me the hell alone!

But more and more it feels like I can't say certain things without people dog-piling me. "OMG YOU VOTED REPUBLICAN?! YOU RACIST!" Go fuck yourself. I have my reasons. I don't agree with all their policies or all of their politicians (Tom Cotton you can bet your ass I'll throw away a vote for a Libertarian before I vote for your crooked ass), but I feel like that should be a gateway to discussion, not being labeled and dismissed. Because I am not a Nahzi, I am not a racist, I'm fucking trans for Christ's sake, I feel like if someone like me can in good conscience be somewhat conservative, then you should at least be willing to ask me why and have a discussion. If you can't do that and immediately feel like shutting me down, then I don't want to associate with you either.

Just please. Stop with the hate. Stop with the idea that one party is inherently evil and the other the bastion of all that's good. We all know both sides will sell you out for an extra napkin at their $30,000 galas. Let's just be kind to each other and remember the old adage. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

[Tolvo]

I feel a bit odd trying to word how I feel about this. In essence I would agree about the statement the person said about the GOP, the actual political party and its divisions. Though also wouldn't that kinda be going against rules of the discord/approved box to talk about the GOP? It is tricky to discuss certain historical topics as Neo-Nazis have had such a large rise in the US government recently and various parallels, with the GOP in many states defending said Nazis and Trumpism(A term I just hate saying in a serious discussion), it's kinda why I generally avoid talking WW2 since it can lead into the other or about certain periods cause it can lead into labor discussions or more direct politics(History is just full of political events and well political history). We had Republican members of congress support domestic terrorists and work with them along with various other kinds of Republican politicians, who have also openly supported genocide. There are modern Republican politicians who associate with the KKK still. I'm not saying the Democratic party is great(To me they're marginally better, I'd love an actual left wing party Democrat is more so just taking the less shitty deal for me). Which maybe that is how you feel about the Republican party, I can't say as I'm not you. I think an aspect is would you view yourself as someone who supports the GOP unquestioningly or someone who has voted GOP? Is being a Republican highly tied to your identity, so negative remarks about the party would then in turn be also directly at you?

[GloomCookie]

The reason this incident struck a chord with me is primarily because I get these things all the time, and it gets really, really old. Imagine if you went into the kitchen and there's a plate of cookies, and everyone's told they can have one. You grab one, and then I grab one. But, when I grab one, I get my hand slapped. Ok, that's weird. Same thing happens the next day. You get a cookie, I get a cookie, my hand gets slapped. After a while, I don't want a cookie anymore because while we're doing the same things, I'm getting punished for it.

That's what it feels like. These little slaps here and there, someone being 'cute' and all. It just gets really old and I'm tired of it. If I say something, everyone harshly criticizes, but others they go "Yaaaas totally this 100%" and if I don't agree I'm the one who's wrong.

[clonkertink]

There are a number of points that I'd like to raise, points which all members should keep in mind:

First, I've removed the details of the inciting incident - while no names were mentioned (and we appreciate that), the details were very easy to search, and could lead inquisitive members to finding the conversation in question.

Second - to be clear, the PROC forum is the only place where political discussion is allowed. That means PROC subjects on the discord are also not allowed, and that includes the kinds of jabs and one-liners described in the post above. If anyone feels the conversation has veered in a politically charged direction, contact a staff member. You can see those of us who are online in the sidebar. Drop into our DMs, and we can step in. If things have really spiraled and the situation is urgent, @Mod will bring us down in droves. We do drop reminders when we see these things, but we don't always have an eye on the discord channels, which is why reports are important.

Thirdly - being conservative is not against the rules, and it is certainly not a ban-able offense. We may have members who will put up a strong challenge against conservative ideas that are presented, but staff monitors potentially volatile discussions closely, and members on either side of the discussion who push the tone into uncivil territory may be issued warnings or receive a cooldown period where their PROC access is restricted.

This is probably a good point to once again mention that Staff appreciates reports. If you feel something in PROC has stepped beyond the bounds of civility, it is much better to hit the report button and involve staff, than to wade in and potentially escalate the discussion yourself.

[Tolvo]

I think an aspect to that is also always going to be that mods can't see everything as well. Then it builds up and eventually it all catches up and you reach a breaking point, when perhaps they weren't aware it was going on. I know I've dealt with it a ton. While I would not say it is harder to be a conservative, I will say the frustration is understandable in regards to who ends up getting treated how in regards to rules violations/bothersome behavior. Without someone paid to watch a chat with shifts to have all times covered it is gonna happen, and only a for profit business could do that since it'd be a literal job then. I have experience with this as I've run into it as well, and I know in my case I can be bad about actually contacting someone and going "Hey this keeps happening despite it being against the rules/disapproved of but seemingly only to me and I'm uncomfortable with it." It's often hard to gauge how often it is as we can only go off of our own experiences. There were times(A while ago) where I felt the reverse, that right wing things were very accepted in the chat as people often shared them while left wing things were challenged, when I was present. But that would only be going off of what I experienced, to each person they might have only had one interaction but since I was dealing with the trend not one isolated incident it bothered me while they thought nothing since it was a single moment to them. I notice in communities it especially happens at night(If they're US based) since naturally as humans mods need to sleep too, so when you're someone on at night a lot it's more likely to happen and build up.

[GloomCookie]

I appreciate you both. I just want to feel like E is that one place where, regardless of where you come from, what you believe, you can find a place. It just sucks that sometimes people let the silliest of things get in the way of a good hug.

[Skynet]

In regards to comparisons of the Republican Party to Nazis, I’m reminded of East Germany during the days of the Berlin Wall. The USSR knew that it was criticized heavily for its lack of democracy despite calling themselves a “socialist republic,” so they went to great lengths to hold rigged elections and maintained controlled opposition to give the illusion of freedom. “Look, East Germany even has a pro-capitalist party!” they’d say. “We have a diversity of thought and not all of us are faceless out of touch bureaucrats!”

And perhaps in some cases that was true; in an empire of over 200 million people I don’t doubt for a second there were members of the Communist Party who privately had pro-capitalist views, and those who disagreed vehemently on with their peers the implementations of socialism. But this didn’t change the fact that the Soviet government, as a systemic institution, was anti-democracy and anti-free market. The levers of power were arranged such that it operated this way regardless of individual citizen’s private feelings at the common level. For things to change, it took the monumental efforts of decades worth of economic downturns, disillusionment, internal problems, and Perestroika policies of transparency and reformation to make a dent and allow people to transition to something else.

The Republican Party is little different in terms of institutional policies. But this time it’s both the top levels and rank and file which are overwhelmingly sympathetic to fascist policies and concepts. Even those who may not believe in Holocaust denial or in a white master race are to various levels both unable and unwilling to counter or ostracize those in the party who very much are. I wrote a thread here showing how former President Trump engaged in and propagated racist and anti-Semitic behavior which has resulted in real-world harm and has been widely reported. And in spite of that, 95% of Republican voters approved of his actions the past four years in October 2020. And this isn’t counting times when literal Neo-Nazis were hired by his administration (also covered in that thread), or when CPAC invited an open Holocaust deniers to their convention. They reversed this offer, due to negative publicity but still let others attend.

₁ I do a similar thing in regards to ICE, and how Neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups go unchallenged among Republicans

I tick enough demographic boxes for groups the GOP traditionally appeals to the most when it comes to voting. But there is one notable demographic I do belong to, if more by a genetic and familial basis than a religious one, that the GOP doesn’t traditionally appeal to in regards to voting. Anti-Semitism isn’t solely a far-right or fascist phenomenon, but the majority of anti-Semites in the United States aren’t voting for Joe Biden or being welcomed wholesale in Democratic Party circles. This isn’t just vague rhetoric; hate crimes against Jews rose exponentially under Trump’s presidency, and many Jews haven’t forgotten the Republicans who stood by Trump when he said that the Charlottesville marchers included some “very fine people.”

Beyond just the Trump Administration, also the fact that many Republicans are adherents of QAnon, a conspiracy theory whose members are much more likely to hold anti-Semitic views than the general population.

Roughly half of respondents who agree with QAnon also agree that the rise of liberalism has enabled Jewish people to destroy institutions and take over the world.

Around half of Republicans believe that the QAnon conspiracy theory is partly or mostly true.

And as for the “pro-Israel” Republicans...they merely view Jews as pawns to help fulfill their Rapture prophecy. Many evangelical leaders believe that the Holocaust was ordained by God. As to why, it’s apparently because some of our ancestors allegedly turned Jesus over to Roman authorities or refused to convert to Christianity, placing the blame upon the victims rather than the perpetrators of genocide. And yet you never see Italians being accused of “Christ-Killing” in these circles. And these megachurch pastors don’t get cancelled for this; instead they remain highly popular in evangelical circles, growing rich from their donors who support them all the same.

And all of this scares the crap out of me. There are those like myself and others who even if they know that not all Republicans are Neo-Nazis, there are far too many in the party who are fine associating with them. This makes walking into conservative spaces a minefield when there’s a very real chance that there are people present who either want to kill me, or are fine with conditions for American Jews becoming so bad that many have no choice but to make Aliyah and risk going to the front lines in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict due to universal conscription. In the end the results are the same: making the world a less safe place not only for Jews, but for people of color, LGBT folk, and too many others to count.

You can still be conservative without being a Republican. But you are outnumbered and like the Lincoln Project have a tiny reach on the political stage, which means that many people like myself and others have to tread cautiously around self-described Republican voters for as long as the GOP doesn’t take action to dispel such scum from the ranks. You don’t have to support or even vote for the Democrats (there are many third party and independent options who can reflect your values), but after all that’s been said, done, and linked above, are the Republicans a group that you still want to vote for or support?

[GloomCookie]

“I feel like when I mention I'm conservative, I get dog piled”

I just want to point out that half your posts are just circling back on themselves, so I'm going to start refuting them. I'm tired of these narratives being pushed because “Duh! Everyone knows this!” thanks to a lying mainstream media (and yes, ALL mainstream media, including Fox News before anyone uses that against me).

First, you're making a logical fallacy in trying to tie the Republican party to the policies of East Germany, which was a state wholly controlled by the Communist regime in the Soviet Union. There is no comparison there because the East Germans couldn't do a damn thing about their plight, they were being told “Obey or get shot”. That's false equivalence and disingenuous. You just want to plant that seed in someone's mind “Oh, these East Germans were so bad! Oh, now we're talking about Republicans.” Shame on you.

Next, you claim that the Republican party is openly sympathetic to fascist policies. Where? How? Why? If I go over to Britannica¹, under “What does the Republican Party stand for?” it states:

The Republican Party was initially created to advocate for a free-market economy that countered the Democratic Party's agrarian leanings and support of slave labor. In recent history, the Republicans have been affiliated with reducing taxes to stimulate the economy, deregulation, and conservative social values.

Absolutely nowhere in that statement does it say “Hey guys, let's all go be fascists!” Because I'll give you a hint, fascists don't like deregulation. In fact, they want the exact opposite. According to the Marriam-Webster dictionary²:

1. often capitalized: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of the opposition.
2. A tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.

So no, the Republicans are not fascists. They haven't been fascists, they aren't on the way to become fascists, because your boy Joe Biden has done far more things such as a slew of executive orders in his first few days, completely bypassing Congress and enforcing his control. So no, you can't just claim “Oh the Republicans are fascist because of this!” when the Democrats do the same thing. That argument is invalid.

But oh, let's look at how Trump managed to get 95% of Republicans to support him for his four years in office. That's gotta be fascist or racist or whatever, right? WRONG. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having faith in a leader. Believe it or not, that's a good thing! Oh, and your claim that Trump promoted racism? I have a video for you: Trump condemns racism for 8 minutes straight. And yes, sometimes you get holocaust deniers in your groups. That happens. It's called having opinions. Do I agree with those opinions? Hell no, but these are movers and shakers in government. You can't have a functioning party without them. The first amendment protects people for a reason, even if we don't like it.

Now on to the claim that neo-Nazis are unchallenged among Republicans. I can't believe this has to be said but considering that Republicans want to DEFEND Israel from the nations surrounding it, wouldn't it be far easier to just cut Israel free and let them fend for themselves? That's what Ilhan Omar would love, because she's tweeted numerous times about the atrocities committed by Israel and makes her anti-antisemitism well known, only backing down when things get too warm for her. Which party is she with again? Oh right, Democrats. Kinda blows a hole in your argument that the Democrats don't welcome them into their circles.

And then your little comment about the pro-Israel Republicans using the Jews for a Rapture prophecy. Talk about a complete 180. Also, evangelical leaders are not the Republican Party. They may run in the same circles a lot, but not always. Don't conflate one group's beliefs with another.

You talk about the Republicans as being hate filled Nazis and that going into conservative circles is a minefield. Why? Do you go in with the intent to discuss differences you have with the group or, like here, throw a wall of text at me and basically try to brow-beat people? Because that's what this feels like. It feels like you're trying to brow-beat me into saying

After all that's been said and done, and linked above, are the Republicans a group that you still want to vote for or support?

I've presented my evidence as to why I don't believe they're even remotely as bad as you think. Most Republicans aren't bad people, yet you make it sound like supporting them is like going and getting your KKK hood and robes or your Nazi uniform. If you have a reason to dislike the Republicans, fine. But throwing a wall of text at me trying to tell me my association with them is wrong? That's just gonna piss me off. I just wanted to vent that sometimes it feels like people dog-pile me for my beliefs, and then you present a perfect example of why I feel this way.

But please, continue to tell me how I'm somehow wrong and evil for voting for the party that best aligns with my interests and beliefs and doesn't just get thrown away on a 3rd party candidate. Why don't you go vote for the Green Party? Or the LGBTQ+ Party? Wouldn't they be better aligned with your views and beliefs? Or maybe voting Democrat is a necessity because of our 2-party system and I don't believe in the Democrats.



1. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Republican-Party
2. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

[Lustful Bride]

I'm gonna rip off a Band-Aid here and just open up.

I used to be much more Conservative than I am now. I was still hard into the Republican party by the time I first joined E. But overtime I have softened up on it and become more Independent and taking every election on a case by case basis. (Though so long as the Republicans keep bringing in people like Marjory 'The Jews cause wildfires with space lasers!" Taylor Green and Matt "statutory offender" Gaetz, and patting traitors who invaded the capitol on the head and calling them good people, I'm leaning much more Democrat).

As of recent years I've come to really dislike the Republican party for becoming a parody of what it is to be Conservative and making Conservative synonymous with Racist.

A lot of my early conservative leaning was just being raised by staunchly conservative parents, though even they had much more liberal leanings than they do now (thanks to 24 hours of Fox news, Newsmax and Right Wing Youtube), but some of it was me actually agreeing with certain policies and ideas.

I won't go into it because some of it I still agree with today, and some of it I have outgrown. When I was much younger I used to look at the LGBT+ community and be all 'Ew those people are weird!'.....right up until I became one of those people and have kept my feelings secret from all of my family ever since (especially the ultra religious ones).

As I've grown older some of these opinions have slowly became more complex and nuanced (the dreaded bane of the political parties). I'm still always going to support guns, but I do support a measure of gun-control as well. I want a big military but I do not want it to be used as a club and solution for every problem (and soldiers deserve way better mental and healthcare than they get now).

I do hold onto my Christianity (yes I wrestle a lot with my Bisexuality and my faith, and other things), but I believe in the separation of Church and State, and despise how the word of God is just used by the Republicans to beat down the LGBT+ community and anything they don't like. OR how they've turned a simple 'Get vaccinated so you don't die' into a religious debate when it didn't need to be.

Trans Rights are Human Rights. No debate there, even if Reps throw temper tantrums.

I do not like how undocumented workers are abused by corporations and by Immigration services, but I also believe in maintaining a border and enforcing rules.

Climate Change is legitimate extinction level threat that we need to focus on, but we can't destroy ourselves while trying to save the environment either.

I want police to still be a thing and equipped with what gear they need, as we live in dangerous times of mass casualty attacks, but they have been using this as an excuse to abuse and kill people of color unfairly and they need to be held accountable.

I say all this because I want to show you that there is more to this than just Lib vs Con. I want to show you that I'm not dog piling on you. I want to show you that I in part agree with you. It is hard to express certain conservatives leanings without immediately drawing glares and comparisons to the more extreme arms of the right wing conservative party.

But there is a difference. You can be Liberal without being a Democrat, and you can be Conservative without being a Republican.

Neither party has a monopoly on political thought as much as they want everyone to think.

Being conservative doesn't automatically make you bad. Not even being Republican. Nor does being Liberal or a Democrat make you a saint. We're all just people trying to survive and do the best we can. The blame here lies in the parties who have made everything such an insane shit show and seem to keep turning it up to 11 just to secure votes without actually bothering to give a damn about all of us.

[RedRose]

And then try to be non American and explain that yes, some conservatives support health care, etc.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'm gonna rip off a Band-Aid here and just open up.

I used to be much more Conservative than I am now. I was still hard into the Republican party by the time I first joined E. But overtime I have softened up on it and become more Independent and taking every election on a case by case basis. (Though so long as the Republicans keep bringing in people like Marjory 'The Jews cause wildfires with space lasers!" Taylor Green and Matt "statutory offender" Gaetz, and patting traitors who invaded the capitol on the head and calling them good people, I'm leaning much more Democrat).

As of recent years I've come to really dislike the Republican party for becoming a parody of what it is to be Conservative and making Conservative synonymous with Racist.
...

I'm going to quote this because it's as eloquently worded as anything I could write, and expresses much of the same ideas I was going to open up with. I'm also someone who has drifted centrist as I've gotten older, but I still think like a conservative even if my reasoning ends up occasionally leading me to more classically liberal conclusions (for example, I defend my pro-choice stance on the grounds of 1st-Amendment religious freedom, which confuses the hell out of people on both sides).

To that end, I'm going to misquote a quote that is mistakenly attributed to Ghandi in the first place: "I like your conservatives. I do not like your conservative party. Your conservative party is so unlike your conservatives."

That is to say, I regard conservatives/Republicans and the American Republican party as separate entities, with at times very different end goals. While on the surface the voters control the party, the disparity of wealth and education between the top and bottom allow the GOP elites to manipulate the public opinion of their base (through media outlets, among other things) into pushing for what they wanted in the first place. They've become the tail that wags the dog, so to speak. But the point of this preface is to highlight to conservatives reading this on E, like the OP, that I am not criticizing them personally, when I proceed to very thoroughly criticize the GOP.

*knuckles crack*

Let's start with the elephant in the room (see what I did there? It's an elephant joke because the GOP's symbol is an eleph....anyways). The accusation of fascism on the part of the GOP that kicked off this whole mess. The tendency to govern via executive orders is a wash - the trend really started in the Obama era, but Trump passed almost as many EO's in his 4 years (220) as Obama did in 8 years (276), while Biden's count can't be fairly evaluated this early or while his party controls Congress. While it is true that the GOP doesn't like regulations, that only really applies to matters of economics and business. It is very, very gung-ho when it comes to regulating the behavior of the people, which is where fascism sets its roots. The GOP is the source of laws to ban gay marriage, bar trans people from bathrooms, and force biological sex indicators on ID cards. It's the source of campaigns to strip women of bodily autonomy by banning abortions, and disenfranchise low-income urban citizens under the guise of 'election security' via mandatory IDs. The tendency towards military adventurism has declined recently into an isolationist shift, but historically the GOP was the primary driver of overseas "interventions". So while it is not fair to call the GOP as it currently stands fascist, it's also very, very inaccurate to say it isn't walking down a road that leads there. It's throwing out more red flags than a Communist Party spirit rally right now, and the best way to stop that is to have actual conservatives recognize this and speak out to stop it.

Moving on, one of my broader griefs with the GOP come from how it's become the party of fear - fear leads to hate, and hate leads to the Dark Side. It used to be gay people, then it was Muslims, now it's trans people and immigrants, but the drumbeat in recent years has been deliberately playing up 'the other' and manipulating people's fear. It doesn't really stand for anything these days, so much as it stands against vague ideologies like "Political Correctness" and "Woke SJW Cancel Culture". You'll find politicians and pundits and Youtube commentators railing against these things, but you'll never get two of them to agree specifically on what they mean. Because as long as something is vague, you can rally the greatest number of people against it. If you start adding specifics, people might realize they actually agree with what's being denounced and the support base splinters. For that matter, I hold to the opinion that 'Cancel Culture' is a manufactured fear phenomenon to begin with, but that's largely my inner Grammar Nazi White Patriot rearing its head, and I'll keep my rant on that topic for another day.

As far as the tail-wags-the-dog relationship the GOP has with its voters, that's not in any ways a criticism of intelligence. Conservative voters don't rally behind Tom Cotton and Marjorie Green, behind Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbot and Matt Gaetz, because they are dumb or gullible. But those people are wealthy and educated, and in many cases learn specifically how to manipulate public opinion by playing to otherwise legitimate fears even when those fears are the results of said leaders' actions. It's why I despise people like Tucker Carlson (who is also a spineless coward) and Rush Limbaugh (may his black soul rot in hell), because they are/were wealthy college-educated conservatives who continually denounced higher education as evil or a waste of money or the source of liberal brainwashing. It clearly benefited them, but they don't simply work to keep their own voters from getting access to education, they work to convince those voters to not want it in the first place. They energetically deregulate corporations, then when said corporations move jobs overseas to cheap labor markets turn that around into 'immigrants/foreigners TERKIN ER JERBS". There are many criticisms of the Democrats, from their hypocrisies to laziness to general ineptitude. But the party, as a whole, isn't actively working to harm the people it claims to be the champions of.

And what doesn't help either, before I forget, is that these officials are the public faces of Republicans/conservatives, since they were elected to be that. So when people say "conservatives are anti-Semites", they aren't picturing your average voter, they are picturing Marjorie Taylor-Greene who claims California wildfires are caused by evil Jews firing their secret orbital laser cannons. "Conservatives hate LBGTQ+ people" wears the face of Greg Abbott, who erased links to an LBGTQ teenager suicide-prevention hotline from government websites after his even more-right-wing primary rival denounced him for supporting 'liberal ideologies'.

Now, to end this on a slightly more positive note - conservatives are not bad, let alone an enemy. To quote an author I'm quote fond of, "There will always be a conservative faction, and it will always be powerful". If we're using dictionary definitions here, 'conservative' means "averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values". By nature, conservatism stands in defense of the status quo, which is a healthy part of any society and tends to reflect the majority of people when it comes to most issues. When a progressive cause generates sufficient support and momentum (not burning Jews at the stake, abolition of slavery, women's voting rights, gay marriage) to overcome conservative social resistance to that change, it settles in and becomes the new status quo eventually - try finding a genuine conservative who thinks women shouldn't vote these days, I dare you. 'Progressive' similarly becomes redefined, and the cycle progresses as it should.

Political conservatism in the US on the other hand, as embodied by the GOP, has become diseased - it's reactionary, not simply resistant to forward motion but attempting to actively reverse and undo change that has already happened. In many cases, the causes it champions are distinctly minority opinions. This is why people say the US doesn't have a liberal party and a conservative party; it has a status-quo conservative party (the Democrats) undergoing a progressive insurgency within its ranks), and a far-right reactionary party (the Republicans).

I say all this because I want to show you that there is more to this than just Lib vs Con. I want to show you that I'm not dog piling on you. I want to show you that I in part agree with you. It is hard to express certain conservatives leanings without immediately drawing glares and comparisons to the more extreme arms of the right wing conservative party.

But there is a difference. You can be Liberal without being a Democrat, and you can be Conservative without being a Republican

.

Because LustfulBride, again, says it as good as I ever could and did it first.

[Blythe]

I'm sort of coming into this thread with a different mindset. Clonkertink has already addressed any modly things worth addressing, so this is more me entering as plain old me.

Not going to criticize simply for being conservative, GloomCookie. I'm not conservative myself, but I'm always sort of curious why a fellow trans person might lean conservative. I'm interested in your reasons and outlook. Certainly I don't always find myself in alignment with the 'typical' beliefs of my party or those who, regardless of party, purport to share my same political leanings, so my guess is you certainly don't align fully with conservatism any more than I do with liberalism. That being said, I also know it can be really nerve-wracking to talk in a public thread about this sort of thing, particularly if you are worried about being dog-piled. My inbox is open if you just wanna have a chillaxed one on one conversation about politics, without judgement or negativity on either of our parts. I like learning about folks who don't quite fit into expectations, if only because I work hard at understanding perspectives that aren't my own, whether or not I agree with those perspectives. Totes okay if you don't prefer to take me up on the offer--I just thought I'd put it out there.

[Dice]

The person (I refuse to name names) basically labeled the entire Republican party as Nahzis, and me by association.

The party and those who willingly attach themselves too it have to live with the label of Fascist now. If you do not want to leave the party, you get the label. Mike Murphy is a personal hero of mine, he is a conservative. He is not willing to be a member of a party that openly worships its Fash lite leader and the people who he has legitimised.

You can be conservative and I have no issue with that. You can have views that are not my own and that is ok too, but you can not, currently, support the Repubs in the US without getting the label that the party is openly seeking for itself. The new US Fascist party.

If you want I am willing to write a full length post about why I am not being hyperbolic, why I am not being mean, why I am not being insulting, I am just stating facts. I can list off policies and the people who were openly accepted in the Trump Whitehouse, the push post Trump to remove him from the party and the quick back down by its "elites" to give up on that effort and let him take control again. I saw this just to lay out that I am not seeking to attack you personally, just state things as they are.

If you voted for Romney for example and you dislike what Trump has done and will not vote for any of the new wave then that is a principled stand I respect. John McCain, Mitt Romney or Mike Murphy are all men I can respect. Closer to home Jacqui Lambie is someone I respect. All are Conservative, none support Trump and his Fascistic ways. Well McCain did not. May he rest in peace.

If you are a Trumpite, mate, can't help you. If you are not then I am sorry that your Party morphed out under you, but now you are left in this situation where the party is accepting people with views like Richard Spencer and you are going to get tared with that brush if you choose to stay. That is up to you. I am sorry you no longer have a place to call home if that is the case. I do not like one party states, I do not think that not having an opposition helps anyone. I do not think that letting Dems get complacent in California or Repubs in Alabama helps anyone in those states. I like when idea's get thrashed out and fought over.

But none of that matters. Not right now. The Republican part of the United States is as of right now leaning hard into Fascism and to support them is to legitimise and felicitate them in that act. If you do not wish this label do not support them. If you find that Fascism is not a deal breaker for you and you are comfortable supporting them then accept you are going to be reacted too accordingly.

[Azy]

I'm sorry to hear that something happened that upset you like that.  The hard truth is right now there is a lot of negative feelings toward the Republican party because of all the bullshit they've been pulling lately.  I don't know you personally, so I don't know if it's true in your case, but the largely accepted belief is if you support the party, you support everything they do.  You support the voter suppression, the ties to racism, nationalism, Covid denial and lies, ect... 

I am registered as a Democrat because the Republican platform turned me off personally.  That being said, I don't always agree with everything every Democratic leader has ever said.  I think I lean more moderate, and don't always vote Democrat, though lately I have on principal.  I'm sorry, but when you try to overthrow the government like they did because their candidate convinced them the election was fraudulent just because he didn't win, to me that is a major problem. 

The optics of the Republican party right now are not good.  Stacking the Supreme Court, though it tickles me that it hasn't done as much for them as they hoped.  There was an open seat the last year of President Obama's last term, but oh no, he couldn't fill it because it was an election year and the people needed to have their say!  But then the same scenario plays out with President Trump, and a lot less time to do the vetting, and the very same man pushed a confirmation through like the building was on fire because the Constitution says the current sitting president is the one who fills the empty seat.  That is just one example of the blatant hypocrisy and shameless power grabs that have gone on.  It really seems like many of them are quite willing to piss all over the Constitution to keep power, and it's causing a lot of anger. 

Of course you have your reasons for believing in conservative policies.  What I encourage you to do is speak up more, and denounce the corruption and crap.  Right now it's the extremists who are hogging the spotlight.  I am certainly not going to sit here and say that Democrats are saints, because I am just not that stupid.  Politics in general is corrupt, and we all know it.  Thing is, if a Democrat were to act like some of these Republican clowns, I'd be just as vocal about finding their behavior to be disgusting.  Republicans who don't go for Trumpism are just staying silent for the most part, leaving many of us thinking you agree but aren't doing so publicly, or don't think an insurrection is that big of a deal.  Speak, civilly of course, and show us that that is not the case.   

And as has already been said, if someone on this site is uncivil toward you when you are trying to have a civil discussion, report them because they are breaking board rules.  Personally, I find a conservative person who can have a discussion instead of hurling insults a refreshing thing.     

[clonkertink]

I would once again like to remind the general community that civility is a cornerstone of PROC, and while the policies of the Republican Party may affect many of our members on a deeply personal level, please remember that GloomCookie initially made this post in good faith, out of love for our community and a desire to be herself here.

As such:

The party and those who willingly attach themselves too it have to live with the label of Fascist now. If you do not want to leave the party, you get the label.

Statements like this only confirm what GloomCookie stated in her original post - that she's hesitant to discuss the things she feels for fear of being labelled a fascist or a Nazi. Please refrain from levelling this accusation at other members - it serves only to escalate the tone of the discussion. If Republican politicians push fascist ideas or policies, that is a viable topic for discussion, but do so without levelling personal attacks at other members.

@GloomCookie
There are two points that I wish to make, and I make them purely in the spirit of constructive criticism. The first:

I just want to point out that half your posts are just circling back on themselves, so I'm going to start refuting them. I'm tired of these narratives being pushed because “Duh! Everyone knows this!” thanks to a lying mainstream media (and yes, ALL mainstream media, including Fox News before anyone uses that against me).

Opening your argument like this does you an immense disservice. If you dismiss all media as lying, you may certainly deflect any potential critique backed up with citations. However, you also leave yourself entirely without any grounds to argue from. While you denounce the narratives of the media, you then posit your own narratives: that Joe Biden is using executive orders to impose his control while bypassing congress (a concern that I'm sure many liberal members can relate to quite well, from Donald Trump's own use of executive orders); that Republicans cannot be anti-semitic and pro-Israel at the same time; and perhaps most concerningly that Holocaust Deniers are a vital part of the American political system.

However, you provide no references or citations for any of these positions - and indeed, any citation you could provide would be undermined by the assertion that all media lies. Such arguments are unlikely to stand up to scrutiny, especially when your opinion is in the minority.

Which brings me to my second point - the unfortunate reality is that this "dogpiling" is a result of the selection-bias of Elliquiy. Every member of our community agrees that they are comfortable participating in a diverse community, including people of different gender identities and sexualities. This means that our community consists largely of LGBTQIA individuals, and LGBTQIA allies. I think it is fair to say that LGBTQIA rights is one of the most singularly unifying principles among members of Elliquiy.

And that presents a strong bias against the anti-LGBTQIA policies of the GOP. However, as the sheer number of self-identifying conservatives in this thread indicates, being pro-LGBTQIA is not inherently a liberal position. There is common ground to be found here, but I also think there are difficult questions that may have been left unasked, or unanswered.

[Dice]

Statements like this only confirm what GloomCookie stated in her original post - that she's hesitant to discuss the things she feels for fear of being labelled a fascist or a Nazi. Please refrain from levelling this accusation at other members - it serves only to escalate the tone of the discussion. If Republican politicians push fascist ideas or policies, that is a viable topic for discussion, but do so without levelling personal attacks at other members.

I am not attacking anyone personally, I am answering a situation that is laid out and explaining how things are. I am not being uncivil, I am not being rude. I don't see a reason why I need to be any of these things. I am not seeking to escalate an argument. I am simply stating facts.

1. Trump himself may not be Fascist but he himself did things that where Fascistic.
2. Trump gave permission to those who are Fascist to openly attach themselves to the part of the Right.
3. Those people did that. In mass.
4. Due to this, they have started openly changing the party from the inside.
5. The party, post Trump, took some steps to try and purge his influence. This action did not last and those who tried did not succeed.
6. The makeup of the party today and the makeup of the party in 2008 are not the same, they appeal to different people and they exist for openly different reason. To support the party of 08 made you a Republican and all that title carried then. To choose that same title in 21 carries other connotations. 
7. If you willingly affix to yourself in 2021 the title of "Republican" you wear the costs that some with that, the Jan 6 assault, the nutters that Trump openly gave a voice too, the dark underbelly that was always there, the Q bs and whatever MTG is.
8. It sucks that the party has moved out from under people, that that is the truth of it. If the party has moved out from under you but you are not willing to accept it and leave it then you accept the labels that come with your choice.
9. That label in 2021, for the US republican party, is Fascist.

Honestly it is what it is. I am not here suggesting that GC has a stack of Skrewdriver CD's and a 1488 tat. I am not here claiming that things are the way they are because of the fault of those who did not see this shit coming and just had it wash over them. I am saying though that if you want to wear that shirt you wear it and you wear the new meanings that come with it. If you do not like what those meanings are then you have to either:

a. Accept them anyway or
b. Leave the situation that has places upon you those titles.

This is not a personal attack. It is a fact of the situation. If you wish to be a member of the party today you wear with it the badge it has claimed for itself. Just like if I wanted to be a member of Sick Mother Fuckers (Sick Motherfucking Friends Of Twisted Sister) then I wear the label of fan of that band and all that comes with it.

[Oniya]

I'm going to point out that the use of the non-specific 'you' has a tendency to make a statement appear as if it is personally directed, whether or not that is the intent. 

I'm old enough to have a clear memory of Germany as a pair of countries.  I vividly remember seeing the Berlin Wall being torn down on national TV.  And I remember Ronald Reagan's last speech as President, as he presented the Presidential Medal of Freedom to George Shultz and Mike Mansfield.

I was only in high school, and far from informed in political matters, but there was a kindliness around Reagan as he spoke to Americans.  His words on that occasion talked about people coming together. 

This, I believe, is one of the most important sources of America's greatness. We lead the world because, unique among nations, we draw our people -- our strength -- from every country and every corner of the world. And by doing so we continuously renew and enrich our nation. While other countries cling to the stale past, here in America we breathe life into dreams. We create the future, and the world follows us into tomorrow. Thanks to each wave of new arrivals to this land of opportunity, we're a nation forever young, forever bursting with energy and new ideas, and always on the cutting edge, always leading the world to the next frontier. This quality is vital to our future as a nation. If we ever closed the door to new Americans, our leadership in the world would soon be lost.

Source

In the last four years, the politicians that somehow still claim to revere this man have traded in 'tearing down walls' to 'building the wall' - both literally and metaphorically.  These politicians don't sound kindly, even when talking to the people that they want to vote for them.  They don't act like they want to bring people together.  They don't even give more than lip-service to the needs and well-being of their constituents.  They even sneer at members of their own party who espouse more compassionate viewpoints, calling them 'RINOs'.

I'm not even sure what comprises being 'conservative' these days (especially if you look at government spending and the national debt under the past several administrations).  I honestly don't see what the appeal these elected representatives have.

I would thank people not to answer that last paragraph if said politicians don't appeal to them.

[GloomCookie]

Lustful, I'm going to agree with you on most of your articles, though I'd like to weigh in on a few things.

When you say Trans Rights are Human Rights, 100%. Absolutely no debate. Everyone deserves the same rights regardless.

I agree with you in regards to undocumented workers being used and exploited by corporations. I've heard horror stories of workers coming over, working under a word-of-mouth contract that they'd be paid after they'd finished working, and then the owner calling ICE and having them rounded up so he doesn't have to pay. Such things should never be tolerated.

I agree that Climate Change exists, that it's going on, and that it can be bad, but I don't necessarily agree that it'll lead to an extinction level event. My reasoning behind that is that we honestly don't know enough about the complex mechanisms that control climate and what those effects will have long-term. More CO2 in the atmosphere will lead to increased warmth, but it could also lead to higher crop yields that balance out (I say this because some farmers pump CO2 into greenhouses for higher yields). Should we try and mitigate it? Yes, definitely. Can we stop it? Maybe. I think we should be taking action, but we shouldn't be treating it like we're all going to die in 20 years, not when they've been saying it for 50 years and it hasn't happened yet.

Police need to be held accountable, and they should also be able to do their job. As far as them being unleashed to attack and kill people of color, I'm not so sure. Police are people too, often sent to deal with scary situations, and we don't always get the full story. Desperation can lead people to dark places, and there are a lot of people of color desperate because of their economic situations, and I think that leads to them unfairly having to deal with police and thus more likely to be killed. The solution needs to come from both sides: we need police better able to deal with situations and capable of doing so while also being held accountable for their actions, while also giving people in low-income areas who are disproportionately dealing with police the opportunity to improve their lives and thus get out of poverty.



Blythe, I'll give you my personal story as to how I shifted from voting for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 election and swearing I'd never vote Republican to being the opposite way around. It began shortly after the 2016 election when I was moving from southeast Arkansas to where I do now. Along the way, since it was a six hour trip, I was talking with my dad. My dad is very conservative and always has been, but I respect his opinion because he's got a BA in Political Science and an MBA and has been all over the country, so I feel like he's at least got something to bring to the discussion. I forget what prompted the phrase he used, but it still rings in my head to this day. He said to my brother, ”Dude, you're a white male. Your opinion to most people doesn't mean shit.”

Now, again, I was fairly liberal at the time and dismissed it with a sort of OK Boomer. What started my shift was watching an episode of Late Night Tonight with John Oliver, who I still feel is funny but recognize him for what he is. Anyway, he was talking about some issues and in the back of my head I was like “Wait... I know for a fact that's incorrect.” Now, someone getting minor details wrong is fine and all, I get it, mistakes happen. But some of his statements were just absolutely wrong and I started to look more and more critically. Then I stumbled across other things and what was a slow slide gradually went faster and faster.

Then I stumbled across Tim Poole. Now, at one point Tim Poole felt way too far right for me (ironic given his actual leanings) but he was talking a lot of sense. Like, way too much sense. And finally I noticed something that drove me hard away from the left towards a very moderate position leaning right, and that was how modern feminism seems to think the only way to succeed is to push everyone else down. I'm an egalitarian, I don't care who the hell you are, you're being treated the same unless I have reason to treat you otherwise, but I feel like too many people who claim to be feminist think the only way to be 'equal' is to be superior. That just feels naturally wrong to me.

We live in a country where women have equal (and in some cases more) rights to men. I'm not an MRA or anything, but I've also heard horror stories of women abusing the system when arguments get out of hand, self-inflicting injuries so police haul the man away and he's treated like absolute trash. Are all those stories true? No, obviously not, but I started to feel that certain groups were abusing the system to basically force other groups to comply. For example, in Canada, not using someone's correct pronoun is an offense that can lead to fines and jail time. Like, I get it, I'm trans, I would prefer to use certain pronouns myself but I'm also not the kind to get overly critical because... well, despite what we have in the Elliquiy Discord's NSFW channel, not every trans person is absolutely gorgeous and looks like a beautiful woman. That's just genetics.

Even before I was trans, I've dealt with people fucking up my name. My last name is only four letters long, yet I've had to correct people SO MANY TIMES that it's just second nature to assume they'll fuck it up. That's been going on for years and yet I don't get offended because, well, language is imprecise to begin with. Does it suck? Yes it do. But I also feel like it comes with the territory. Humans are really good at spotting patterns, and our pattern recognition says “Short, soft, boobs, lady. Tall, chiseled, flat chest, dude.” I mean, seriously, there have been experiments where people have correctly assumed if someone's male or female just from looking at their hands, that's how ingrained we are to spot patterns. So I really don't get offended by that. What I get offended by is when you DELIBERATELY fuck it up. There's a world of difference there. If I approach you and say, “Excuse me miss...” and you correct me, I'll go “Oh, sorry” and that's it. If you want to be a dick, then fine. I've lost all respect for you. But I don't feel like we need government stepping in because of it. If that were the case, then when someone mistakes my name for the 4,196 time, I should be able to call the police and make them do it right!

Anyway, long story short, I just feel like we're starting to see the pendulum shift in a dangerous direction. I get really nervous when I see things like “Students demand segregated dorms” or “People of color should be given extra points on SAT” or “Why white males should be killed”. When I see things like that, I get mad because I feel it's taking the idea of equality and using it as a force for superiority. People are always on about white supremacists or the patriarchy, but what about the institutions that are little more than black supremacists or some such? I feel those are just as dangerous, especially when people rush to blindly defend them because they're terrified of being canceled.

These organizations absolutely do have good merits and positions, but they also promote hatred and violence because they feel like if they can't rise to the level they want to be, they have to drag everyone else down to their level. No, you fight your way up because then you've accomplished something and can look the other person in the eye as an equal without their resentment. That's how you get ahead.



Dice, I feel Clonker addressed your posts so I'm not going to say anything further.



Oniya, I agree with you. Reagan may not have had the best policies, but he felt like a kind-hearted grandpa who was there to do his best. I miss that kind of person in politics, who is kind and gentle, but you knew probably could rip his shirt off and bare knuckle box if he had to. I think we need more of those.

[TheGlyphstone]

The reason I personally object or question viewpoints like 'white men don't mean shit', despite being very aware as to why people like your father/brother would feel that way, is that the ones who do promote that viewpoint tend to do so because they see the world as a zero-sum game where there is only so much respect to go around. We do live in a world where the opinions and perspective of minorities and women are becoming more valued, that is undeniable. But while I can't speak for all such advocacy groups, the ones I'm personally knowledgeable of and familiar with don't ever say, for example, 'women matter, men don't', they just say 'women should matter equally to men'. But for some people, specifically those who once had 100% of the respect and power, they only see what they are losing. If women get equal pay in the workplace, every dollar they're given comes out of the paycheck of a man (because the corporations can't risk their net profits dropping). If a women's testimony becomes of value in a rape case, the theoretical man on the other side now doesn't benefit from the previously presumed guarantee of belief. And it's very, very easy for malicious actors to take this and distort it into worst-case scenarios.

Respect doesn't need to be zero-sum - it's multiplicative, because showing respect is the best way to earn respect. There are always going to be fringe nuts who do believe things like 'women must be superior', but when you choose to paint an entire ideological movement with the beliefs of its worst associates, that's as unfair as...well...calling all Republicans Nazis because of that one nutjob who ran for Congress in Illinois. Heck, it's the whole premise of this thread in a way, so I hope you can empathize or understand that.

But for the people whose livelihoods, whose political and economic wealth/popularity depend on maintaining that state of fear, they have to cultivate those fears and stoke 'the other' by tarring opponents with the worst brush possible. They amplify the false stories and narratives, then repeat them continuously until it sinks in to someone's unconscious acceptance through raw familiarity.

For example, when you claim institutions that are little more than black supremacists, what groups are you talking about specifically? The only outright black supremacist group I know of is the New Black Panther Party, who are explicitly known as a nationalist hate group and no one I've met is scared of saying so. Hostile media does try to tar the Black Lives Matter movement with that same brush, as noted above, warping their actual/original message of "Black Lives Matter too" and presenting it as "Black Lives Matter only". Are there extremists who have adopted the Black Lives Matter moniker as a cover for their own views? Undoubtedly so. But is the movement as a whole 'black supremacy'? I'd say that is deeply unfair, and accepting the narrative that it is perpetuates that fear-based antipathy that prevents positive change.

[Saria]

For example, in Canada, not using someone's correct pronoun is an offense that can lead to fines and jail time.

This is the kind of idiotic, ridiculous bullshit one can only believe if they’ve been listening to garbage sources.

There are one or two alleged bases for this claim.

The first was a lie peddled by Jordan Peterson back when they were passing a bill that added the words “gender identity and expression” to the Human Rights Code, and the Criminal Code (see for yourself). Peterson—who is not a lawyer, and barely a psychologist—got famous among right wingers for being “brave” enough to say that the bill would result in people being jailed for getting someone’s pronoun wrong. Of course, every legal expert consulted about it said Peterson was wrong, and of course, no one has ever been fined or jailed for using the wrong pronouns. In reality, the additions to the Human Rights Code just prevent the government (and federally-regulated stuff; not private individuals) from discriminating on the basis of gender identity or expression. The additions to the Criminal Code do apply to individuals… but of the two additions:

• 
  The first is in section 318, which is about… well, read the title of the section: ADVOCATING GENOCIDE. (You can see where “gender identity and expression” was added in paragraph 4.) In other words, unless you happen to be misgendering someone in the same sentence as you’re calling for all genderqueer people to be eradicated, no, you will not be going to jail for it.
  
  
• 
  The second is in section 718… which is not actually describing a criminal offence at all. In Canada, we don’t actually have a law against “hate crimes”. Instead, what happens is if you are already convicted of a crime, your sentence can be increased if there is an element of hate involved. (There are also other factors that can increase your sentence, like if there was a profit motive for your crime, or it was for terrorism, etc..) So, again, unless you happen to be misgendering someone while assaulting or murdering them, no, you will not be going to jail for it.
  

Again, despite Peterson’s claims, no one has ever been fined or jailed for misgendering anyone. She was wrong. (See what I did there? Look, no thought police coming to arrest me!)

The second basis of the claim is the case of Robert Hoogland. Hoogland was the father of a transgender kid, and he was an asshole, who loudly and publicly opposed the kid’s transition. The kid went to court to be declared capable of making their own medical decisions. The case went before… I actually can’t remember this part, because it’s been a few months, and don’t want to bother googling for more than the asshole’s name (and only that so anyone who wants can fact check my claims), but it was either the BC Human Rights Tribunal, or a lower court. Hoogland lost the case. Hoogland lost his shit after losing the case, and he ended up in jail.

If you only read right-wing media—which is a bad idea in any case—you would have read that Hoogland was jailed for contempt of court, or something like that, for insisting on using the assigned-at-birth gendered pronouns for the kid, in defiance of the judge’s orders. This is the story that Hoogland himself pushed. If you know anything about right-wing media, you can guess that this is a bald-faced lie.

The truth is that, while the judge did indeed call Hoogland an asshole (in legalese, of course) for consistently misgendering the child, and the judge did indeed order Hoogland to stop badgering the child to quit transitioning, and to stop misgendering them, none of that is what Hoogland was jailed for. In fact, I believe later appeals came out ruling that the order to stop misgendering was too far. Instead, Hoogland was jailed for repeatedly violating the publication ban on the case. As with most cases involving a minor, there was a publication ban in place to protect the kid’s identity. Hoogland kept going to right-wing media to air his grievances, even after being told to stop, and he kept revealing identifying info about the child (and the mother) and publicizing the child’s private medical information… and that is why he was jailed. (For a source article, here’s one from the National Post… which is a right-wing paper, just so you know you’re not getting a leftie spin.)

(For the record, even if the misgendering ban were upheld, and Hoogland persists in misgendering the kid, even that would probably not lead to him being jailed. Most likely it would lead to loss of parental or visitation rights, and maybe a restraining order. (Of course, violating that would lead to more serious consequences, naturally.) On the other hand, once you violate a court order, it’s pretty much up to the judge whether they fine you, jail you, or whatever, so it’s possible Hoogland could end up in jail specifically for misgendering the child. However, that would not be a case of “he went to jail for using the wrong pronouns”, it would be a case of “he went to jail for violating a court order”, which is not the same thing at all, and it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise. In any case it’s moot, because the order banning misgendering was struck down.)

We, the maple-sweet citizens of Canada would greatly appreciate it if right-wingers stopped making up lies about our country to make your bullshit points. No, you will not die of old age waiting for our free health care. No, Canada does have “sharia law” courts. No, you will not be jailed for misgendering someone.

So if you really, really want to misgender someone… and I assume you must, otherwise why would you be concerned about whether it’s illegal… then, sure, you could come to Canada and freely misgender whomever you please.

But if that’s your thing, we’d really rather you didn’t come.

This has been a Canadian fact-check. 🍁 You may now return to your discussion.

[Azy]

I take issue with saying that women abuse the system and beat themselves up to get their husbands arrested.  You said you don't think all the stories are true.  While I can't say it never happens, this viewpoint and use of logic pisses me off because that's how men get away with it.  Sure, there are a few vile skanks who would do something like that.  I used to live next to one, and apparently while she was threatening her ex she forgot about thin walls and the fact that my now ex and I heard said threat. 

But I also know survivors who never got any kind of justice.  Either they spoke up, and that argument was used against them, or they decided it was a waste of time to speak up.  My best friend of 17 years now was married to a very abusive man.  He made up all sorts of shit, had her committed, and used said stay in a mental ward to win custody of their daughter just to hurt her.  My best friend in high school was gang raped while she was in the navy, and she said nothing because, well, she went to that hotel room with those men while on liberty, and she got drunk, so what else did she expect?  I'm probably the only person she told.  I was attacked by my mother's boyfriend when I was 16, and it was somehow my fault because I was wearing a nightgown that had long sleeves and came to my ankles, but hey, I was clearly not wearing a bra underneath so I was asking for it. 

Wanting to protect women from this crap is not at all saying that women are put above men when it comes to equality.  That kind of thinking is so wrong on so many levels. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpr46voCUIE&t=3290s

A good thing to watch to hear the other side.  I've been Facebook friends with her for 5 years.  She is not making that shit up. 

[TheGlyphstone]

Speaking of hearing the other side, I'd like to say/ask one small thing, or possibly not so small. I'm not calling out anyone in particular or saying people have done any of the following, and it might be an unreasonable thing to ask, but I'll try anyways.

I like having intelligent people, who don't necessarily see things the way I do, express their viewpoints in an articulate manner. It broadens my understanding of the world to see how things look from a different angle, and I believe the simple exchange of opinions - even if no effort is made to persuade - can helps reign in the worst sort of ideologies where fear and hate are bred from ignorance.

As has been mentioned, E's population of political conservatives is likely a very small and silent minority. I want to encourage them to feel like they can participate in discussions here, to minimize our echo chamber if nothing else. But if we do, they proceed to repeat the conservative talking points that encompass the entirety of what they know and have been told, and then we *angrily* swarm them down with counterpoints and debunking...all that does is reinforce what they've been told so many times, that 'lefty libs' are hostile and will 'cancel' anyone who speaks up with different views. They're driven back into silence, or away entirely to where people will accept and agree.

That's not saying people shouldn't try to present facts and information to debunk those statements - not doing so would be the opposite of the free exchange I'd like to cultivate. But please, try not to blame the person expressing the falsehoods for believing them when they've been immersed in the 'alternative facts' for so long? A hand offered in friendship to lift up and out of the mire of misinformation, not a boot to the face for having swam in it and splattered muck over our nice clean shoreline.

[GloomCookie]

So if you really want to misgender someone... and I assume you must, otherwise why would you be concerned about whether it's illegal... then sure, you can come to Canada and freely misgender whomever you please.

I love how you paint it as if I want to misgender someone when I specifically stated I would correct myself. No, what I am worried about is what's called Compelled Speech. Compelled speech is something I am completely opposed to, and so are most conservatives because it's a complete contradiction to the first amendment, which states we have the freedom to say anything we want. Do we also have the freedom to accept the consequences of said words? Yes, obviously. If I go to work, tell my boss to go fuck himself and I think his policies are shit, I should expect at least a conversation with HR and possible termination. I don't expect that I'm going to be thrown out and then stand there going "But... ma first amendment..."

Now, am I glad you brought up those points? Yes, because you've shone light on a blind-spot. Liberal media in the United States doesn't cover this, and obviously conservative media covers it wrong, so yay, I learned something new. This guy, Hoogland (whose name doesn't come up because trying to protect the child and all) absolutely sounds like a total asshole and was arrested more for being in contempt of court, which is something that ANY conservative would understand far better. We get a biased source telling us something, and if we get anything at all wrong, suddenly we're assholes. That's not a real constructive way of correcting anyone. More than once I've wanted to dig in my heels because now I'm pissed. That's most people's gut reaction when you approach them with hostility, and that's what we get a lot of these days. We're told "You're wrong, you're bigoted, you're racist, you're a white supremacist" etc. etc. and then the person leveling these accusations wonders "Gee, why aren't they listening to my well-constructed arguments?"



Azy, I think we're speaking past each other, and that's my bad. I absolutely believe that domestic violence in all its forms is bad, I absolutely believe that most cases of domestic violence reported are true, and that we should do more to combat this. But I'm also being realistic that a small (and again, small) percentage of people can and absolutely do abuse the system on both sides, and this leads to other problems as well. I watch a lot of cop programs like Live PD, and I still remember (I recall stuff way too easily so there wasn't anything special about this episode that made me remember, I can recall a lot of media from decades ago) that on domestic disturbance calls, the cops would mention their policy is that if there's domestic violence, someone's going to jail. Ok, I kinda understand that policy, but I still remember one officer mentioning that far too many cases escalate because guys are scared to call the cops on their girlfriends for domestic violence because they're scared that the second DV gets mentioned, they're going to jail regardless. While not all policies are like that anymore, there are still places where that's true.

What I'm trying to say is that there are both organizations and individuals who make it their mission to find and abuse the system for their own ends. People have this amazing ability to read through rules and regulations and find where they can benefit somehow. We just need to be careful that organizations that seek to profit off of these inequalities don't make the abuse worse by pushing through policies and laws that openly discriminate against one side or another. Unfortunately, that seems to be what everyone wants these days, are policies that 'feel good' on the surface but are too short-sighted to consider the broad problems they introduce.

[Vekseid]

Now, again, I was fairly liberal at the time and dismissed it with a sort of OK Boomer. What started my shift was watching an episode of Late Night Tonight with John Oliver, who I still feel is funny but recognize him for what he is. Anyway, he was talking about some issues and in the back of my head I was like “Wait... I know for a fact that's incorrect.” Now, someone getting minor details wrong is fine and all, I get it, mistakes happen. But some of his statements were just absolutely wrong and I started to look more and more critically. Then I stumbled across other things and what was a slow slide gradually went faster and faster.

I've been through a few of those episodes myself, it is quite painful to watch. Usually moments of gross ignorance and assumption accompanied by "Ho-ly-shit!"

I agree, it's a horrible feeling to see media personalities do this.

...what makes it okay for you to do so?

In this thread, you've made a lot of emotional conclusions that are demonstrably and gravely false.

Imagine what anyone working in environmental conservation thinks of you saying "You don't believe we're facing an extinction level event" - when the extinction event is already our current reality.

Or how Azy feels, when the fact is women are not treated better by the legal system as a whole. The situation facing women in most of the world is, quite frankly, horrific. That it's better in the US than places with mass selective abortion or wife burning is a pretty fucking low bar.

Or how so many minorities feel when someone like you parrots "You're a white male, no one cares what you think." I cannot count the number of times I have been assailed by someone trying to end-run one of my staff here or on BMR because heaven forbid a woman decide anything. Not just men, either. Women do it too.

Even purely emotional stuff. Like calling Reagan a 'kindly grandpa'. Kindly like when he called for a bloodbath days before Kent State. People talk about being afraid of a 'competent Trump' (ignoring that he was quite competent in his specialty), Reagan was that man.

Again.

What makes parroting these lies okay?

[GloomCookie]

I never said it was ok to be wrong. I started this because I was tired of getting sniped at for having opinions, for seeing a different world than everyone else and getting ridiculed and hated for it.

Climate change is... climate change. We don't know enough about it, and I'm going to leave it at that.

I never said women have it better everywhere, just that sometimes they do. What they do in other places sucks, but I have no power there, and can only hope things improve.

That was just something my dad said and I still don't 100% agree, it just... it made me start to question things. That's all.

And I just liked Reagan because he seemed to care. That was mostly emotional. Every president puts on a front and I guess I didn't look too closely.

I'm tired of fighting like this. I should never have started this thread in the first place. All I've done is upset people and painted myself as a monster.

[GloomCookie]

I never should have started this thread. I'm sorry if I made people upset. I'm going to lock it and walk away.

[Vekseid]

I never said it was ok to be wrong. I started this because I was tired of getting sniped at for having opinions, for seeing a different world than everyone else and getting ridiculed and hated for it.

Opinions like this one:

... And yes, sometimes you get holocaust deniers in your groups. That happens. It's called having opinions. Do I agree with those opinions? Hell no, but these are movers and shakers in government. You can't have a functioning party without them. The first amendment protects people for a reason, even if we don't like it.

This is a pretty horrific take. Refusing to demand better from your leaders.

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution is a wonderful thing. It, combined with Supreme Court rulings over the past half-century, are a big part of what makes the US the only country in which Elliquiy can legally operate.

The First Amendment does not require an opinion be respected. Respect is an earned currency, you cannot just demand it of people.

Climate change is... climate change. We don't know enough about it, and I'm going to leave it at that.

You cast aspersions about my friends' work and want to hide behind "It's just an opinion."

Your climate change statements are not opinions. They are false factual claims. We certainly know enough that drastic action needs to be taken in order to avert greater and greater climactic disasters, many of which are already underway, some of which have threatened the lives of my family. That is a fact.

I never said women have it better everywhere, just that sometimes they do. What they do in other places sucks, but I have no power there, and can only hope things improve.

I highlighted a problem specifically within the United States.

Women who defend themselves against their abusive partners often receive harsher punishments than men who straight up murder their wives.

The fact that problems - serious problems - exist for men is certainly true. But that doesn't mean feminists or people in general should shut up about the problems women face.

That was just something my dad said and I still don't 100% agree, it just... it made me start to question things. That's all.

So you turned to Tim Poole, a quintessential fascist whatever he may claim, as a source of wisdom who speaks 'so much sense'.

Honestly looking into him I'm trying to find one thing that 'makes sense' from any reasonably informed worldview.

I'm tired of fighting like this. I should never have started this thread in the first place. All I've done is upset people and painted myself as a monster.

This road is not a healthy one for you. Your reply to Saria, you cite the first amendment and compelled speech regarding a country where neither apply.

You acknowledged your errors, and yet didn't. You saw the need to put your fear first and foremost, even after Saria thoroughly debunked it.

You are speaking first from fear. Acting first from fear.

There is nothing good that can do for you.

You are only going to end up more hurt.

It's never too late to stop and ask if your worldview is a bit fucked up.