The Case for Abolishing ICE

[Skynet]

CW: Discussion of sexual assault, torture, child abuse

#abolishice

An expression of righteous fury; a quick tweet to fire off and demonstrate slacktivist support. A protest against injustice; a radical agenda for the dismantling of law enforcement itself. These two words have been uttered for around two years now and interpreted through a variety of lenses. At first #abolishICE began as an obscure hashtag by liberal activists and gradually gained mainstream popularity among the broader left.[1] First founded in 2003 under the Bush Administration, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement was a relatively new federal agency acting under the jurisdiction of the Department of Homeland Security. It was tasked with the enforcement of immigration laws, along with investigation of criminal activity in the USA of a transnational nature.

Like many things birthed within the Bush Administration, the agency has traditionally straddled the fence closer to the security side over that of civil libertarianism. It existed under the more liberal Obama Administration, and even then had its own share of critics.[2] But under the Trump Administration a new spotlight has been shown on it, the calls for dismantling stronger than ever.

And I’m one of those voices. So why Abolish ICE, and why now? Below I’ll lay out seven major points along with sources. I inquire any Elliquiyans with questions or counterpoints to read this post in full, as I cover a lot of ground on things which may have already been addressed.



Case #1: The Trump Administration’s family separation policies are both unprecedented and novel in comparison to past Presidents’ policies.

One of the common defenses I see of ICE’s family separation policies is that they are nothing new, that more liberal administrations such as Obama and Clinton had done similar things. They assert that leftists are only now crying foul because a Republican is in the White House.

This is untrue. First off, President Obama’s immigrations policies have earned criticism from his own supporters. A transgender heckler at a White House dinner helped bring light to the plight of LGBT immigrants in custody, the resulting publiclity on this issue helping encourage reform.[3] Secondly, cases of immigrant children being separated from their parents were comparatively almost unknown pre-2016; President Trump increased this to an unprecendeted scale.[4] NBC News did a report where it turned out that the Administration selected families specifically for increased prosecution over other kinds of immigrant groups.[5][6]



Case #2: ICE and the Trump Administration do not prioritize saving immigrants from human trafficking, one of their biggest arguments for family separation

Sexual slavery. Sweatshop labor. Coyote truckers squeezing every last peso from impoverished families before dumping them in the middle of a desert. Human trafficking is meant to evoke all of these horror stories and more. ICE’s official Twitter, as well as conservative media, cast the agency in the role of defenders. That the stories of crying children in cages, of people who grew up in the United States without a criminal record being deported to a more violent and dangerous country, are explained as either media distortions at best or a worthy price to pay to prevent children from being raped.

But like the previous point, it too is a lie. The majority of children who were separated from parents at the border are not victims of human trafficking.[7] In fact, the Trump Administration quietly defunded programs helping sex trafficking survivors recover from their trauma.[8] And perhaps most disgustingly of all, ICE lost track of 1,500 children within the span of two years. Not only are most still unaccounted for to this day, the agency itself claims that this gross negligence is not their responsibility. One could easily make the case that immigrant children are likelier to fall victim to human trafficking in the hands of an ICE officer than when crossing the border.[9][10]

Case #3: Detainment of legal asylum seekers, zero due process, rape, torture, and neglect by ICE officers is commonplace at immigrant detention facilities

ICE has traditionally banned the press from inquiring into the operations of their facilities, and a ProPublica hidden recording last year easily revealed why.[11] Not only did the sounds of crying children move those with a heart, the cruel jokes by the attendant guards showcased the indifferent apathy of these so-called protectors.

Sadly, it does not end here. Reports of thousands of cases of sexual assaults stretching over a decade have occurred in ICE facilities.[12] Many immigrants told tales of other instances of cruelty, such as being fed chlorine-tainted water, threats of turning the A/C to freezing temperatures, and denial of legally-mandated basic amenities such as blankets and toothbrushes.[13] Within the past two years there have been twenty-two known cases where the conditions became so terrible that people died.[14]

And while these punishments do not fit the misdemeanor crime of entering the US without the proper paperwork, it’s not just illegal immigrants being punished. ICE agents forged signatures and skipped mandated review processes for asylum seekers fleeing persecution and violence within their home countries.[15] An act which I’ll mention is legal for said travelers to do. Trump’s Attorney General, William Barr, supports ICE’s action in jailing said asylum seekers.[16]

Furthermore, a 2003 Yale Law School article designated family separations as a violation of international law, and in 2018 the United Nations is in agreement with them.[17][18][19]



Case #4: Much of the political instability and poverty these immigrants and asylum seekers are escaping from are due to US foreign policy

Back in the 90s the North American Free Trade Agreement displaced nearly two million agricultural jobs, causing unemployment rates in Mexico to skyrocket.[20] The political turmoil in El Salvador was exacerbated when the US funded right-wing dictators and death squads to quash leftist insurgents, who then became just as willing to turn their guns on their own civilian population.[21] And not just in Latin America, but human-caused global warming is going to have a worldwide impact on the displacement of refugees. We’re currently seeing the beginnings of this with tsunamis and hurricanes in sea-level coastal regions. 10% of the global population in the mostly industrialized world is responsible for 50% of carbon emissions.[22] The nature of US foreign policy and imperialism is lengthy enough to spawn its own thread, but needless to say the prior examples fit in nicely with right-wing economic and military policies. Policies which inevitably produce the immigrants said right-wingers hold in so much contempt.



Case #5: Scholars who studied concentration camps around the world lay out evidence that the detainment facilities qualify for the definition

In another chilling example, Esquire Magazine published an article drawing heavily from Andrea Pitzer, a woman who studied the history of concentration camps around the world.[23] While the phrase does not automatically connotate the death factories of Dachau and Auschwitz, even those terrible places did not begin as such. A Holocaust and genocide studies historian Waitman Wade Beorn had this wise tidbit to say:

"What's required is a little bit of demystification of it," says Waitman Wade Beorn, a Holocaust and genocide studies historian and a lecturer at the University of Virginia. "Things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz. Concentration camps in general have always been designed—at the most basic level—to separate one group of people from another group. Usually, because the majority group, or the creators of the camp, deem the people they're putting in it to be dangerous or undesirable in some way."

Not every concentration camp is a death camp—in fact, their primary purpose is rarely extermination, and never in the beginning. Often, much of the death and suffering is a result of insufficient resources, overcrowding, and deteriorating conditions. So far, 24 people have died in the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement under the Trump administration, while six children have died in the care of other agencies since September. Systems like these have emerged across the world for well over 100 years, and they've been established by putative liberal democracies—as with Britain's camps in South Africa during the Boer War—as well as authoritarian states like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Camps set up with one aim can be repurposed by new regimes, often with devastating consequences.

On a related note, Mike Godwin, the creator of Godwin’s law who got tired of false comparisons to the Holocaust, said that the concentration camp label is an accurate one.[24]

Speaking of which...



Case #6: President Trump and the Republican Party at large, the biggest investors and proponents of ICE, are friendly to Neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups

They are not our friend, believe me," he said, before disparaging Mexican immigrants: "They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

This was the quote which caused Trump’s approval rating in the 2015 Presidential Race to soar among Republicans. He even described his own fans as very passionate upon news that two of them assaulted a homeless Latino man in Boston.[25] And ever since, he’s only gotten worse, doubling down on the quoted statement when the family separation policy was rolled out.[26] There are many more examples of my President’s bigotry,[27] such describing Neo-Nazis marching in Charlottesville as “very fine people.” But the rot is just not at the top: it’s baked within the foundations of the Republican Party and its Fox News satellite station. Congressman Stephen King, who has a long history of racist statements, was only finally kicked out when he visited a Nazi group in Austria with remarks that if they were Americans they’d vote Republican. aka saying the quiet part loud. In a more recent example, Fox News defended one of its hosts, Laura Ingraham, after she protested Facebook banning a Holocaust denier Paul Nehlen from its platform.[28]

Yes, the very same woman who caught herself in a handwave almost like a Nazi salute three years ago went on to defend a real Nazi.

Not long after, another host Tomi Lahren spoke positively of a Straight Pride Parade organized by Neo-Nazis.[29] This is not even getting into how the Overton Window introduced more fascist ideas and rhetoric trickling down among mainstream conservatives. Such as the fascist origins of the phrase ’Cultural Marxism,’ or how the popularization of a false link between race and IQ was influential in Republican policies that slashed  aid to poorer Americans.[30]

The comparison of fleeing civilians to an invading army, the claim that most of them (children included) are hardened criminals, is intentional dehumanization. To harden the conservative base against reports of their suffering, where they can shrug their shoulders and file any doubts away with a “they deserved it.” Given that many Latin American people are not regarded as white in mainstream US culture, and ICE’s biggest investors and supporters are from the same administration and Party which associates with these “very fine people,” do you trust them to rule justly and fairly?

In Conclusion

Born from the fires of the same administration which gave us the PATRIOT Act, ICE has not only made the US a less free society for those within its borders, it has also failed the law and those who they claim to protect. The poison pill of white nationalism that motivates the executive branch of government shows no signs of diminishing under a conservative establishment, unworthy for an agency who heavily deals with people of color. America has had immigration laws before 2003, and to abolish ICE does not mean the dissolution of borders or the dismantling of law enforcement itself. At the very least the agency should cease to exist; ideally its members should be prosecuted for the injustices inflicted upon those under their treatment. Anyone criticizing the semantics of Occasio-Cortez’s label are not doing this in good faith, for those playing word games to defend our President’s hateful policies seek to downplay the very real horrors happening in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

I thank all those who read this far. The battle is not yet done. Spread awareness. Write to your Congress members. Vote the right-wing out of office. Do not talk to or cooperate with ICE and CBP agents. Know your rights, and share the knowledge with those at risk of being impacted by injustice.

Sources Cited:

[1]https://thehill.com/policy/technology/399303-how-twitter-vaulted-abolish-ice-into-the-mainstream
[2]https://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/obama-deport-sanders-omalley-217132
[3]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/25/barack-obama-heckled-transgender-woman-gay-pride-white-house
[4]https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/nov/29/donald-trump/donald-trump-falsely-says-family-separations-were-/
[5]https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-weighed-targeting-migrant-families-speeding-deportation-children-n958811
[6]https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5688664-Merkleydocs2.html
[7]https://splinternews.com/no-the-vast-majority-of-kids-taken-from-parents-at-the-1826952060
[8]https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5b3fbeade4b07b827cc0517c/amp
[9]https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/1475-immigrant-children-missing/
[10] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/05/27/the-u-s-lost-track-of-1500-immigrant-children-last-year-heres-why-people-are-outraged-now/
[11]https://www.propublica.org/article/children-separated-from-parents-border-patrol-cbp-trump-immigration-policy
[12]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roT07h8AiZE
[13]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/12/us-immigration-detention-facilities
[14]https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/22-immigrants-died-ice-detention-centers-during-past-2-years-n954781
[15]https://www.thedailybeast.com/ice-agents-forged-signatures-skipped-review-to-keep-migrants-detained-report
[16]https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/attorney-general-barr-says-ice-has-power-lock
[17]https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3442&context=fss_papers
[18]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/05/world/americas/us-un-migrant-children-families.html
[19]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/05/un-says-us-must-stop-separating-migrant-children-from-parents
[20]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/world/americas/mexico-donald-trump-nafta.html
[21]https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/01/trump-and-el-salvador/550955/
[22]https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/richest-10-per-cent-cause-half-of-lifestyle-carbon-emissions-climate-expert-1.3727750
[23]https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/
[24]https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/1141125878874877953
[25]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/08/21/trump-says-fans-are-very-passionate-after-hearing-one-of-them-allegedly-assaulted-hispanic-man/
[26]https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17479542/family-separation-trump-mexico-rapists
[27]https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=262535.msg14223721#msg14223721
[28]https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-defends-laura-ingraham-promoting-virulent-anti-semite-paul-nehlen
[29]https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-nation-host-tomi-lahren-touts-straight-pride-parade-run-by-far-right-extremists?ref=home
[30]https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/02/the-unwelcome-revival-of-race-science

[HannibalBarca]

A thorough rundown, Skynet.  Thank you.

[Skynet]

A thorough rundown, Skynet.  Thank you.

I'm happy that my post is gaining traction. I have been debating whether or not to add further things or let it stand, but seemingly not a day goes by before finding yet another good reason to expand on the OP.

Back in late 2018 ICE waived responsibility for detention center guards coercing sex from inmates.

[Skynet]

Edit: I suppose I should have worded my last response better. I do appreciate your sentiment, HannibalBarca.

[Skynet]

They just keep on coming. One week ago ICE's acting Director appeared on Neo-Nazi defender Laura Ingraham's show to defend his organization.

This promotion was tweeted by ICE's official Twitter account.

[Procyonix]

A well stated argument on your part. And I admire and salute your dedication to a cause you believe in.

While I disagree with the concept of abolishing it, as clearly since these caravans are flooding the country with their 'migrant's'  we need border security. That said, I do not believe in a government agency without oversight.  Regulation and oversight need to be applied to all places, businesses, and anywhere basic human rights are involved, in my honest opinion.

Now, I am not a staunch Republican, nor am I a staunch Democrat any longer. The party has moved away from what is supposed to stand for and has become something of a mockery of itself. I am now a centrist, accepting that both ideologies are worthy of discussion, and both are worthy of criticism. Which means of course, in today's world I am seen as a "fascist."

What i find most interesting in all of this raging debate over the border and immigration is that those with Trump Derangement Syndrome as some call it, seem to want to portray this as ALL Immigrants are not welcome. Which is odd, given that  even under Trump, who I don't blame anyone for not liking as a person.  But the fact is, America welcomes the most Migrants of any country. And when combined with Canada, they accepted more migrants than all other countries combined, according to an article I read on a Canadian site.  Unfortunately I seem to have lost the book mark so take it as you will. My apologies. But the fact is, all immigrants are not the same.  There are those who follow the process and get in under the laws of the country they choose to enter.  Whether or not we agree with those laws is a discussion for another time.  But just like other laws, there are flaws within them, and that needs to be addressed. However, the fuss most people have that are in favor of security are concerned with those that do not obey laws.

And while there have been critics of Obama's handling of the border as the "Deporter in Chief" as many called him near the end of his term, this current wave of "broad ranging" support is nothing more than politicians virtue signalling, and the media doing everything they can to keep Trump from being re-elected.  Sanders, who in the last election cycle called the idea of Open Borders a Koch Brother's scheme for cheap labor, is not suddenly all about the buzz word of open borders.

In summary,  as I said, I respect your opinion and your activism. That is what is our nation has relied upon for centuries.  But as this nation has grown more and more ideologically divided, everything is now politicized.   Rarely are the people in power concerned about having morals and sticking to their ideals. Its about power for their tribe. The same driving force that has made Mankind the leading killer of their own throughout history.  So what i would ask of you, kind sir, is that you find somebody who is an activist in the other direction, and sit down and see if you can work out a system that works for everyone: migrants, asylum seekers, illegal aliens and the nation alike.  I would welcome such a plan. Of course, don't have this discussion on Twitter, Facebook or Google as that wold likely lead to your being banned for working with the "enemy." And ultimately, that is the saddest part of this whole story... That people look at people who disagree with them as sub-human, evil or other wise dangerous.  Some are of course, but those are the fringes, who are smaller than one might think. The majority of people in the middle are reasonable people who just want there voices heard. If those of us willing to have discussion got together to try to work out our differences rather than following some tribal rhetoric made by their personal factions billionaires blindly (both sides), We The People could force change. That is after all how our Nation became a Nation in the first place.

I hope you find this rambling essay insightful. And if I have unintentionally offended anyone, I am truly sorry. I never wish to insult, offend, or suppress any other human being who has or should have the same human rights as I do.

[Skynet]

While I disagree with the concept of abolishing it, as clearly since these caravans are flooding the country with their 'migrant's'  we need border security. That said, I do not believe in a government agency without oversight.  Regulation and oversight need to be applied to all places, businesses, and anywhere basic human rights are involved, in my honest opinion.

I addressed this in my concluding post. The abolishing of ICE does not mean the abolishing of border security.

What i find most interesting in all of this raging debate over the border and immigration is that those with Trump Derangement Syndrome as some call it, seem to want to portray this as ALL Immigrants are not welcome. Which is odd, given that  even under Trump, who I don't blame anyone for not liking as a person.  But the fact is, America welcomes the most Migrants of any country. And when combined with Canada, they accepted more migrants than all other countries combined, according to an article I read on a Canadian site.  Unfortunately I seem to have lost the book mark so take it as you will. My apologies. But the fact is, all immigrants are not the same.  There are those who follow the process and get in under the laws of the country they choose to enter.  Whether or not we agree with those laws is a discussion for another time.  But just like other laws, there are flaws within them, and that needs to be addressed. However, the fuss most people have that are in favor of security are concerned with those that do not obey laws.

It's unfortunate that a lot of these "safety and security" types among Republicans don't realize that asylum seeking is legal, which includes the much-publicized "Caravan." Also Trump Derangement Syndrome is a term created by Trump supporters to legitimize criticisms, and you should not use if you really don't intend to offend people; using the rhetoric of fascist enablers is likely why people slap the 'fascist' label on you. We're at a time where a President who has threatened reporters with jail time, who seriously considered invading Venezuela, and who waved the LGBT flag and then allied with anti-gay evangelicals and banned transgender people from the military, to be a man whose critics are very right to fear him.

So what i would ask of you, kind sir, is that you find somebody who is an activist in the other direction, and sit down and see if you can work out a system that works for everyone: migrants, asylum seekers, illegal aliens and the nation alike.  I would welcome such a plan.

"Let's meet halfway," the dishonest man says, extending his hand.

The dishonest man then takes a step back. "Let's meet halfway."

I've already found many activists on the other side: their solutions range from wanting white ethno-states, destroying social safety nets and replacing vital government services with for-profit corporations,and those who think that tens of millions of native-born Americans will fill the below minimum wage jobs in agricultural work. And many of them had ill intentions. For example, the same people who vote for Trump are the same type of people who are okay with harassing and doxxing transgender people, turn a blind eye to it, or think they should shut up and present as the gender society says they are even if it causes an increase in suicides. Or think that one's intelligence is inexorably linked to one's race and therefore this is means it's okay to reject job applications with African-American and Spanish names. These are not people who are arguing in good faith. Look at Stefan Molyneux; he practically perfected the "reasonable bigot" angle, wrapping up his exclusionary rhetoric in a very persuasive batch. My Descent Into the Alt-Right Pipeline is a great video to watch on how such "activisits" use the goodwill of others to shift their falsehoods into the mainstream.

As for the nativist sentiment on anti-immigration: this happened in Alabama when Latinos and immigrants fled the state due to the passing of a racial profiling law, causing uncountable damage to the agriculture industry when crops were left rotting on the vine. Many non-immigrant and non-Hispanic Alabamans would rather remain unemployed than work even $10 an hour picking fruit in the hot sun.

The Democrats have compromised with the Republicans many more times than the latter has happened. The Obama Administration was well known for this. It's only made things worse. Compromise is fine and dandy when lives are not at stake, when both sides truly do want what's best for the majority. But the Republican Party does not; their racist voter ID laws in North Carolina that targeted African-Americans with surgical precision, the intentional malice behind ICE's family separation policies, the Bush Administration's willful lies into invading Iraq, all do not point to people who are rational or reasonable.

And ultimately, that is the saddest part of this whole story... That people look at people who disagree with them as sub-human, evil or other wise dangerous.  Some are of course, but those are the fringes, who are smaller than one might think. The majority of people in the middle are reasonable people who just want there voices heard. If those of us willing to have discussion got together to try to work out our differences rather than following some tribal rhetoric made by their personal factions billionaires blindly (both sides), We The People could force change. That is after all how our Nation became a Nation in the first place.

You're speaking of the Marketplace of Ideas ideal, where simply talking things out with reason and logic will be enough to knock hatemongers off their high horses and unmask the naked emperor to the masses. This dialogue is suited for Plato's philosophical forums, but our society is not the forum of Athens, but the bread and circus Colosseum of Rome. The news media played Trump's speeches with a straight face; Snopes and Politifact reported on his many deliberate falsehoods; scientific studies dating back decades showcased the real dangers of climate change; this has not unseated right-wing talking points from the popular imagination at all.

The fringe holds political power in the United States right now. 60 million Trump voters is nothing to sneeze at, especially when they were okay with voting for a man who openly bragged about groping woman's genitals, who retweeted racist Twitter accounts labeled "White Genocide" before his presidency and others such as Lauren Southern during his Presidency, who hired a Neo-Nazi chief of staff Steve Bannon to such a vaunted position, and so on and so forth.

A 'radical' ideology does not need the majority aid in order to wreck havoc, and the voters not experiencing buyer's remorse (or remorse over the wrong things "he's not hurting the people he should be hurting") are definitely culpable for the very real evils the Administration is doing.

[Skynet]

Edit: one more thing I forgot to add in.

While I disagree with the concept of abolishing it, as clearly since these caravans are flooding the country with their 'migrant's'  we need border security. That said, I do not believe in a government agency without oversight.  Regulation and oversight need to be applied to all places, businesses, and anywhere basic human rights are involved, in my honest opinion.

What exactly do you mean when you put 'migrants' in quotes?

[Procyonix]

Well again, we will have to respectfully disagree. I am glad you said "reporters" and not "journalists" as the the later there are far too few of them left. Most of them are political hacks. Regardless of which side they represent.  As to the migrant point. I put it in quotes because I feel its a term that is misused to make everyone who comes to the border as the same, and they are not all the same. After all, if they were true migrants, like the refugees that flooded Europe a year or so ago, They would gladly stop at the first safe country. Yet, people from Congo, somehow afford to fly across the Atlantic to Brazil, which, while perhaps the greatest country in the world, is certainly a far step up from the Congo, where it is dealing with not only political strife but the very real threats of diseases like Ebola (not saying they are bringing it over like some claim).  But yet, they leave Brazil crossing several nations to get to Mexico, where they would be very safe and comfortable. All to get to our border specifically.

I find that... odd.

While yes, there are bad Republicans, and supporters there of, not all are "white supremacists." Just because you choose to disagree with the media machine of CNN, Vox, and Buzzfeed and others and their blatantly false reports and  so called "news."   But there is lies the point, in today's world, who can you trust as a legitimate source of information? Certainly not from American news.  And in the last couple of years, even the BBC has gone off the rails to a large extent with their open political slants. While I understand why, given the whole Brexit thing, it's still sad as for decades, I considered them the only truly unbiased news left on the planet.

Do I support people who want a white ethno-state? Of course not.  And outside of true "alt-right" people of which, thankfully there are less than one might think.. Like the "big" March in Ohio where six who marchers showed up. The problem is, today, if you aren't on the far left fringe you are labled "alt-right" and so in effect, the phrase has lost its meaning.  While you may not agree with a conservative like Ben Shapiro (I don't watch him personally either) but from most reports from people I know who do, he's just a traditional Reagan Republican, mild mannered Right for the most part... And an Orthodox Jew. Yet the media routinely calls him a "Nazi."

As to the article you mentioned, I've read it and had a good laugh.  If this rabbit hole existed then he wouldn't have crawled out of it to write about it. I've watched a few of so called alt-right youtubers... and you know what Suggestions I get? No it's not the Klan. It's CNN< VOX, Buzzfeed or other "authoritative sources."  And the recent move to push back and randomly ban people from youtube is nothing more than the Multi-national businesses behind the mainstream so called media. They are losing their vierwers and clicks, laying off people left and right. They have to suppress alternate forms of information. How better do do so, than to label anyone you disagree with as "a fascist?"

Much of the bs going on now is geared to one thing: making sure they can get rid of the man in the office currently.  Do I think he's a good human being? Hell no.  I am not a supporter of his.  However, I prefer to use my brain rather than sit on it. It's why I am on this site in the first place to exercise my brain and my love of writing.  But what attracted me to your post initially is that you took the time to express your thoughts in a calm and logical manner. That is something I can admire in another person. And hopefully my thoughts and opinions are at least reasonably organized. It's been years since I've "debated" lol.

And as to those people you've talked to, I'd question where they were from. I live in a hotly contested purple state, and yet I've never heard even my most conservative friends talk about most of those topics. I am a firm believer in human rights. When you scrub off the epidurals, we are after all the same animal.  We all have the same wants and needs in the end: to be happy, safe, and able to live a life free of persecution. And that is how it should be, regardless of what a person believes or who/m they choose to love.  Love is blind in that regard, and there are times I wish I could blindfold everyone and use a voice modulator so what gender, ethnic background or education level was not something that could be known.  Put everyone in a room, and talk it out. Saner heads need to prevail.

And why Hillary lost is simple really. It had nothing to do with racism, white supremacy or anything that CNN wants you to believe.  It had to do with the fact that for decades, the two coasts look at the largest part of the country and felt they were lesser. Fly over country. How did Maher put it? "We eat Chef Wolfgang Puck and they eat Chef Boyardee."  Nafta gave away so many jobs in the midwest, closed so many plants by pushing a globalism agenda without a thought to the consequences.  Blue collar jobs that pay real wages that a family could live off were gone. And she did nothing about it, she assumed the Blue Wall was in the bag.

2016 should have been a wake up call to America. Our choices were two horrible people. One who represents everything wrong with our Government and Political system. The other, what is wrong with American Culture and narcissism. It was a no win scenario. No matter who won, America lost. I voted for neither. I voted for a candidate that had no chance, but I agreed with their policies more than either of the others.

But regardless of that. I am thankful for the opportunity to discuss this with you as an adult, it is truly.... refreshing. And as a curious side note... I am a first generation American. My family came to the US through Jones Island in the 50s, fleeing the Soviet Union after my grandfather, his father, and brother were considered the enemies of the state or owning a small butcher shop. My grandparents came here for the myth of the American Dream, that life liberty and the pursuit of happiness was what America is about. In the end, its only only that way for those who are "big enough" to ride this ride, ie either wealthy enough or connected enough to reap the rewards of no responsibility.

[Skynet]

Procyonix, you mentioned a half-dozen talking points on a variety of issues. I'm going to focus on the ones pertaining to this thread; the others would be more suitable for threads of their own.

Well again, we will have to respectfully disagree. I am glad you said "reporters" and not "journalists" as the the later there are far too few of them left. Most of them are political hacks. Regardless of which side they represent.  As to the migrant point. I put it in quotes because I feel its a term that is misused to make everyone who comes to the border as the same, and they are not all the same. After all, if they were true migrants, like the refugees that flooded Europe a year or so ago, They would gladly stop at the first safe country. Yet, people from Congo, somehow afford to fly across the Atlantic to Brazil, which, while perhaps the greatest country in the world, is certainly a far step up from the Congo, where it is dealing with not only political strife but the very real threats of diseases like Ebola (not saying they are bringing it over like some claim).  But yet, they leave Brazil crossing several nations to get to Mexico, where they would be very safe and comfortable. All to get to our border specifically.

I find that... odd.

Where are you getting your sources on Mexico being safe and comfortable? It's in the middle of a civil war!

A person who comes to live long-term in another country is an immigrant, regardless of their circumstances. A plane ticket costs less than a month's worth of rent in many places. And when your life is on the line, you learn to scrounge up what you have and fast. The truly desperate often indebt themselves to coyote smugglers and work off the debt in cheap labor. As for Brazil, it elected a fascist President, and fascist governments are far from hospitable to immigrants. People fleeing from danger aren't prone to set up shop in the fire once they leave the frying pan; they keep running until they find somewhere safe if possible.

And as to those people you've talked to, I'd question where they were from. I live in a hotly contested purple state, and yet I've never heard even my most conservative friends talk about most of those topics.

And why Hillary lost is simple really. It had nothing to do with racism, white supremacy or anything that CNN wants you to believe.  It had to do with the fact that for decades, the two coasts look at the largest part of the country and felt they were lesser. Fly over country. How did Maher put it? "We eat Chef Wolfgang Puck and they eat Chef Boyardee."  Nafta gave away so many jobs in the midwest, closed so many plants by pushing a globalism agenda without a thought to the consequences.  Blue collar jobs that pay real wages that a family could live off were gone. And she did nothing about it, she assumed the Blue Wall was in the bag.

Dog-whistle politics are a tried and true tactic among bigots, to get away with plausible deniability.

To the bold: what are your thoughts on Case #6 then, where I outlined several pertinent examples of established right-wing political figures flirting with hatemongers, including POTUS himself? And besides Stephen King have not suffered major consequences? It was definitely a factor in Trump's popularity; if the alt-right and white nationalists were really that rare and villified, their biggest channels wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of subscribers, Fox News would've gone bankrupt from losing all of their disgusted advertisers, and we wouldn't have low-income voters sacrificing their own social safety nets by voting in candidates who support laissez-faire capitalism with as few rules and regulations as possible. Like 1930s Germans killing off engineers of "Jewish Science" who could've helped the war effort, there are people willing to sacrifice their own material well-being if it will hurt the people they want to hurt.

Like it or not, being a hateful racist is not political suicide in the USA.

So let's tie that back into ICE and immigration. A director of their organization goes onto Laura Ingraham not two weeks after she defended a Nazi, as seen in an earlier post of mine. Donald Trump, the mastermind behind the family separations policy, retweeted a white supremacist[1] who tried to sabotage Red Cross rescue boats saving drowning Syrians at sea[2] and alleged that liberals and left-wingers sought to kill off the white race via immigration of Latinos and Muslims into western countries and used a Neo-Nazi website as her primary source.[3] A woman whose words then went on to inspire the Christchurch shooter who titled his manifesto after one of her videos, The Great Replacement.[4] A woman who while being banned from entry in several countries, got a darling promotion by Glenn Beck's Blaze network,[5] is still very popular, and even got signal-boosted by an otherwise "centrist" and popular YOuTuber Shoe0nHead, a woman whose 1.2 million subscribers have not suffered for said friendship.[6]

In a just world, Trump's endorsement of an attempted murderer would've drawn universal condemnation across the aisle. A government agency would not publicly promote meeting with a woman who goes out of her way to defend Neo-Nazis. All of these people involved are not out of a job, have millions of fans, and have the ear of right-wing political figures in the United States. This is who the head of our executive branch of government regards as a credible source. The man who wrote the family separations policy affecting primarily Latino immigrants.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Sources Cited:

[1]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-04/trump-retweets-far-right-youtube-star-in-attack-on-social-media
[2]https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/6/15804196/generation-identity-identitarians-alt-right-migration-islam-refugees-europe
[3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUbxVfSqtt8
[4]https://medium.com/@emilypothast/what-the-christchurch-killers-manifesto-tells-us-about-the-radicalization-of-white-men-c55857149b33
[5]https://www.theblaze.com/video/lauren-southern-explains-what-the-media-is-getting-wrong-about-south-africa
[6]https://i.imgur.com/tNHZq5U.jpg

[Tolvo]

Brazil is amid pretty constant strife currently and can be a very dangerous country to live in if you are not wealthy. Brazil has for a long time dealt with extremely corrupt police and dangerous gangs, they pretty regularly have death squads that operate even in Rio. And if you are queer or trans or intersex being there is extremely deadly, Brazil is one of the murder capitals of the world for LGBTQIA+ people and LGBTQIA+ people are among those asylum seekers coming to the US borders. This is in part because of how deeply Catholic Brazil can be an that they tend to be far stricter about following the deeply homophobic and transphobic words of the Catholic church while Catholics in other regions don't tend to listen to the Pope quite as much.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/12/brazil-militia-paramilitary-wield-terror-seize-power-from-drug-gangs

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-48391926

Regarding countries most accepting of immigrants it depends on what aspects of it you are looking at. If it is quantity the USA which is one of the largest countries that accepts immigrants that people may desire going to is at the number one position. However many immigrants rate it lower for life of an immigrant and that fluctuates wildly depending on various factors. Such as your skin color, your religion, your country of origin, your language spoken, your sexuality, and more. Canada actually is very much against allowing in immigrants with disabilities and mental illnesses and can be harder to reach if not travelling by boat or plane. Germany is one of the highest rated countries and has been far more accepting of immigrants despite being much smaller than the USA and not having the space or resources for nearly as many of them. Though there have been those resisting their arrivals in Germany with attempts to blame them for various crimes. Now videos are not always the greatest of sources however Shaun has a great video on the subject of over reporting of migrant crimes in Germany for instance. I'll link it below. This sort of thing is not uncommon, a lot of lists and such exist of "crimes" that are "confirmed" by certain groups. However on even the slightest scrutiny they tend to fall apart and mysteriously sometimes even miss some crimes actually committed by people from said group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PuXoOvDYPE

Regarding Ben Shapiro people call him a Nazi for repeating and sharing many Nazi ideas and beliefs and for calling openly for the genocide of Palestinians in the past. He is mostly a pundit who relies on trying to avoid addressing points with shifting conversations to be about attacking strawman versions of a person he is talking to in debates. This works with a crowd but falls apart in written form and when he is without a crowd or not in an environment stacked in his favor. Infamous is the event where he was interviewed by the BBC and fell apart to basic questions and quoting of Ben himself as addressing past remarks would show how self contradictory and hateful he is and typically interviewers avoid that to be "polite." The interviewer notably is a British conservative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VixqvOcK8E

https://www.creators.com/read/ben-shapiro/06/07/the-radical-evil-of-the-palestinian-arab-population

"The idea of an entire population corrupted by bloodthirsty anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism violates modern ideas of politics. According to the Bush administration, the problem with the Palestinian Arabs isn't the Palestinian Arabs — it's their leadership. During Yasser Arafat's tenure, the problem was Yasser Arafat, not the hundreds of thousands who followed him. Now the problem is Hamas, not the hundreds of thousands who supported and elected them.

The problem runs deeper than a few figureheads. The Palestinian Arab population is rotten to the core. There are many to be blamed: Yasser Arafat, who lined his pockets with cash and subsidized murder while playing the victim of oppression. An Arab world that refused to absorb the Palestinian population, preferring to use it as a political pawn against Israel. The United Nations, which suckled the Palestinian Arab population into dependency at the international teat. Israel, for emboldening the Palestinian Arabs by conceding to them.

But in the end, the blame must lie with the Palestinian Arabs themselves. They have accepted their role with relish. They are as responsible for their government's longstanding evil as the Germans were for the Nazis'.

It is far more convenient, however, for the Bush administration and the international community to treat the Palestinian Arabs' thoroughgoing radicalism as a top-down problem. Throw a bit of money at the Holocaust denier, pressure Israel into concessions and hope that the Palestinian Arabs will abandon their attachment to Islamofascism, the logic runs.

Such policy demonstrates an adolescent understanding of Palestinian Arab motivation. Palestinian Arabs will not be bribed: The West has bribed them for decades, and the Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for suicide bombing over working toilets. Palestinian Arabs will not be moderated: Israel has ceded land continuously since 1993, and the Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for murder over peace. Palestinian Arabs must be fought on their own terms: as a people dedicated to an evil cause.

So far, Israel and America have willfully blinded themselves to the harsh reality of popular evil. They have refused to come to terms with the harsh fact that collective choices require collective treatment.

Treating collective problems as problems of individuals is a vacuous panacea. Waiting for Arafat to die of old age did not moderate the Palestinian Arabs; supporting one radical over another will not moderate them, either. The Palestinian Arab population breeds terrorism, anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism. If Israel and America refuse to recognize that simple truth, they will continue to pay the price in blood and treasure." - Ben Shapiro

I should also mention there is no need to assume so much about the beliefs of others Procyonix. You have spoken over Skynet quite a bit and told him and people like him what they believe and their problems. It should be important to note also Buzzfeed News was one of the leaders in regards to groundbreaking journalism in the past decade. Buzzfeed and Buzzfeed News are actually different things, similar to how The Guardian UK and The Guardian US have wildly different quality despite being just different branches or departments of the same organization. Though Buzzfeed News saw a serious shake up recently so previous stories and their high quality and balanced look into various sources may not be representative of the Buzzfeed News of today as its full of different people. It may also be a part of why people call you a fascist is you use a lot of talking points of fascists and their terms and language such as the term "Globalism." Whether you realize it or not it paints you as agreeing with Neo Nazis and supporting their ideas and may lead one to believe you believe Jewish people are puppet masters ruling the world. As that's what the conspiracy theory is largely about, as well as hating any left wing or progressive values.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/globalism-right-trump.html

I have no idea if you're really a centrist or not but you argue heavily in favor of right wing and far right views. As well most people in the USA are not a part of the left wing fringe, or are even left wing. As much as I'd like for the majority to be left wing they are not though they can be in support of certain left wing ideas and causes like environmentalism and unions and labor rights.

In the end as well much of this is not actually about migrants and ICE. A lot of your post has been about general attacks against left wing people and going very off topic and being very defensive about people calling you a fascist which is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy regardless of whether or not you are one.

Regarding ICE I completely agree with abolishing them and trying them for crimes against humanity. The existence of concentration camps in our country is horrifying. ICE has always been absolutely rotten and serves no positive purpose. While I'm for open borders I can say borders still should be safe and I can agree still with checks and verifying who people are. However regardless of the specifics concentration camps for children should be unacceptable to any person in my opinion.

[Procyonix]

First of all. I have no issue with liberals. Through most of the 80s and 90s I was a registered Democrat. Liberal policies have traditionally moved the country forward. But as you pointed out, I am very anti-Left Wing. By that, I mean those who are more authoritarian then the people they call fascists. While you are absolutely correct that there are bad people on the Right, I don't begin to claim there aren't.   And yes, I ramble, trying to keep everything on topic is sometimes hard, when most everything goes hand in hand.

And yes, Brazil isn't good country. I did say they were not the best of countries. But while there are serious issues there, it would seem an improvement over the Congo. And while Mexico also has issues, I have a number of people that I regularly correspond with that tell me  outside of a few specific areas, they are happy, prosperous and safe. Now, it is possible that they obfuscate it because of fear, I will grant you that. But that is my sources.

As to Right Wing and Far Right.I'll accept Conservative, as by comparison to today's politics are considered that. But Far Right I would respectfully disagree. Of course if you are that extreme tip of the left that has moved off the chart to the left, then the center would be considered far right. And quoting Vox as a source is like quoting the National Enquirer. They both are right about as often. I won't defend Fox News particularly as I grew up calling it Faux News. However, I point out, int he key demographic in prime time, they beat CNN And MSNBC combined.  And of the three networks, they've gotten the news stories more accurately. Which I am honestly shocked at.  CNN once as the go to for news.  They were journalists with integrity. I think the only one there now I would consider an actual journalist is Anderson Cooper.

As to the Ice thing, so long as you keep security at the border, and increase it, do what you feel is right. But when you are quoting AOC about her concentration camps, you lose and all credibility. When the largest union in the country refuses to sign off on your major idea, you aren't supporting the Democratic Base.  The base of that party has been always working class Americans.  But anyways, I will say this, it was an enjoyable discussion. The original post did give me things to consider, and I appreciate that. And while I seem to have started an issue with how things are perceived in this thread, which was not my intent. I think it is best I remove myself from this conversation.

I don't think any of us will change the others minds. And I have enough headaches to deal with in my day to day life caring for a 77 yr old relative who has dementia to waste time further. Again, I thank you for reading my thoughts and opinions, and I respect your right to disagree with me. Cheers.

[Skynet]

No need to take Vox's word for it. Here's a video of Southern herself on one of those refugee-blocking ships. Scroll to the 4:30 mark.

And Mexico may have safe places, but on principle you're probably going to immigrate to a country which isn't in the middle of a civil war, even if said war is confined to a few areas, when you can opt for a country that is not undergoing such a fate. Who knows when the fragile political tide will turn?

And it's not just AOC I'm quoting on the camps. It's various historians and scholarly sources, as defined in Case #5.

I'm sorry to say this Procyonix, but I'm getting the feeling that you skimmed over my OP in places. This is clearly a subject with which you share a great degree of passion, but I find it a bit repetitive when several of my posts end up pointing back to things I already addressed.

[Tolvo]

Quoting AOC? I've been calling them concentration camps since they first started separating children and since migrants in them have been regularly dying while I was aware they existed(They've existed for longer than I've known about them as I used to not pay much attention to politics). I do agree with AOC on calling them concentration camps but I've been doing so for a long time. This is what I meant you have made a lot of assumptions about others. These issues have been there for a long time since ICE was created and throughout its operation. Some additional sources.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/ice-detention-center-says-its-not-responsible

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/ice-plans-start-destroying-records-immigrant

Though I understand that now you are bowing out so I won't ask for any further responses.

[Skynet]

The cities of Los Angeles, Chicago, and Denver had their respective mayors announce their refusal to cooperate with the planned ICE raids.

The governor of Illinois banned private detention centers (aka for-profit prisons, which several of the concentration camps are) from being built in the state.

Wayfair, a furniture company which has financial ties to the camps, experienced a mass walk-out of employees.

[Skynet]

Border Patrol is turning away private donations of diapers, toys, soap, toothbrushes, and other much-needed supplies. They're apparently not allowed to accept for legal reasons, but no matter the case this is hideously immoral.

[Skynet]

Three days ago a group of Japanese-American Nisei who underwent similar horrors 70 years ago protested outside of one of the detention facilities. A member of the Military Police demanded that they move, but local police nearby came in to tell the MPs to leave.

[Blythe]

Three days ago a group of Japanese-American Nisei who underwent similar horrors 70 years ago protested outside of one of the detention facilities. A member of the Military Police demanded that they move, but local police nearby came in to tell the MPs to leave.

The army officer in question--the MP doing the harassing--has been suspended & command is now investigating:

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/06/27/army-officer-suspended-for-confronting-japanese-americans-protesting-fort-sills-role-in-migrant-detention/

[Kurogane]

The cities of Los Angeles, Chicago, and Denver had their respective mayors announce their refusal to cooperate with the planned ICE raids.

The governor of Illinois banned private detention centers (aka for-profit prisons, which several of the concentration camps are) from being built in the state.

Wayfair, a furniture company which has financial ties to the camps, experienced a mass walk-out of employees.

A few weeks ago, I had an opportunity to interview with several leaders at Wayfair and almost accepted a position with them. I thank God I did not accept since recent news coverage revealed their support of evil. I am glad that the employees are taking a stand against human injustice and Wayfair's decision to furnish these concentration camps makes me think of those now-famous and much-loved German companies that supported the Nazis.

[Skynet]

A handy infographic of which companies contract with ICE:

[Skynet]

Apologies for the double post, but a lawyer of the Trump Administration, attempted to make her case that proper beds and basic hygienic necessities do not qualify as "safe and sanitary conditions" for child prisoners. Most videos around the Internet are short clips, and this is the fullest one that I could find at nearly 11 minutes. I suggest to show this video to those either still on the fence or in support of Trump's family separation policies.

[Tolvo]

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-jewish-activists-arrested-for-protesting-u-s-migrant-detention-facilities-1.7425518

Never Again Action, an organization comprised of Jewish activists, has been protesting at ICE locations and 36 members have been arrested for doing so.

[Oniya]

A number of Congresswomen visited one of the ICE facilities today.  The employees were aware of the upcoming visit (meaning that they had time to prepare for it.  The reports coming out of the visit are - I don't even think there's a word in the English language to properly convey it.  The Jewish activists in Tolvo's article may have one that was born from experience, though.

https://www.kvia.com/news/border/migrants-told-to-drink-from-toilets-at-el-paso-border-station-congresswoman-alleges/1090951789?fbclid=IwAR0jnwvF3pjxsaii61fz-AYVDv6T9dHPCXjKVwcsghp9we8pYf2wq6LRsUI

[Skynet]

Not ICE, but they work in conjunction with them and often ship the immigrants to the camps, so I figure it's related.

ProPublica uncovered a private FaceBook group composed of nearly ten thousand Customs and Border Patrol members. Bigoted and sexist comments were rife, as were jokes about children dying in detainment. This behavior was not against their rules or rebuked, but tolerated and encouraged.

[Tolvo]

https://twitter.com/KatzOnEarth/status/1145813851180556288

So a term that is rather horrifying, which a twitter link can highlight since it is about people using it and includes videos of politicians speaking at events that have been reported such as above, is that on top of the right wing militias that are working with ICE and border patrol agencies that are unregulated, is there are "Pro-Camp Protesters" who show up to protest/counter protest people critical of the concentration camps.