Topic: Winter is Coming...

[Remiel]

That and all the extra sex. The books have a lot of sex in them, too, but...not quite that much. At least not on the page, where the reader has to sift through it to get on with the story.

I know, right? During the Littlefinger scene, I exclaimed to my roommate "Gratuitous and unnecessary lesbian sex for the win!"

[Rhapsody]

Ros might have been created for the show, but she was based on the red-headed whore Theon liked so much at the brothel outside Winterfell, and she was given a name at Martin's behest.

Yes, they've changed a few things, but Martin is a producer on the show, and I bet dollars to donuts he has to okay everything they change. Great or small.

[Shjade]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Littlefinger makes himself pretty apparent as soon as the Hand tourney. Mormont is creep? With all respect due, not by the rules of that world. Ned's world, the North, actually works the way he behaves, but we never get to see that in the series.

You said something about the show's writing made Jorah look like a creep. I'm just pointing out he already looks like a creep in the books. *shrug*

As for the North's rules, I think what actually happens at the Wall, at the ford, on the Grey isles, etc. kinda proves that's not true. It's the way Ned wants to believe it works, and it's the way it would work if everyone had the same sense of honor. Since most people don't follow that same code, however, he's a fool to put that much faith in it.

[Remiel]

I have to admit that I am mostly pleased with HBO's choice of casting.  Davos Seaworth was pretty much exactly what I had imagined.

[Lilias]

They've been rushing a lot this time around. I was 40% into the book by episode 2, and hadn't even reached the (hint of a) scene with Stannis and Melisandre.

Also, I didn't like at all how they skipped almost the entire prologue. Without the whole 'looming retirement' backdrop, the maester's decision seems entirely gratuitous.

I hope it shapes up along the way, because so far I'm not happy. The size of the budget has little to do with that of the plotholes, and Martin isn't actually writing the script, so I bet he's as much putting up with stuff as endorsing it.

[Shjade]

They've been rushing a lot this time around. I was 40% into the book by episode 2, and hadn't even reached the (hint of a) scene with Stannis and Melisandre.

Unfortunately the sort of thing I was beginning to think would happen by the end of the first season of the show. :|

[Chris Brady]

I'm more interested in the Video game of the same name.  The issue I have with Martin is that he wants his readers and viewers to invest in the world, rather than the characters, whereas I'd rather invest in the characters than the world.  (Doesn't mean this is bad, though, just means I have different priorities.)

[Rhapsody]

They've been rushing a lot this time around. I was 40% into the book by episode 2, and hadn't even reached the (hint of a) scene with Stannis and Melisandre.

Also, I didn't like at all how they skipped almost the entire prologue. Without the whole 'looming retirement' backdrop, the maester's decision seems entirely gratuitous.

I hope it shapes up along the way, because so far I'm not happy. The size of the budget has little to do with that of the plotholes, and Martin isn't actually writing the script, so I bet he's as much putting up with stuff as endorsing it.

Stannis is now the middle brother, instead of Robert. Requiem figures it was a way to dodge explaining why Robert was king instead of his older brother Stannis.

They seem to have rolled Shireen and Selyse into the same character; Shireen's been removed from the Baratheon Season 2 family tree and instead of the fanatic devotee of the Lord of Light, Selyse is sickly, weak and apparently useless.

They renamed Asha to Yara, because Asha sounded too much like Osha (the wildling in Winterfell who looks after Bran), even though I don't think Osha's name's been used more than once. Martin okayed this.

They had

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Stannis fucking Melisandre, which totally does not make any goddamn sense to me.

It is completely against every characteristic portrayed. There were hints of it in the book, yes, but they were rumors of the smallfolk mostly, and assumptions made by the bannermen. Unless I'm misremembering, this was *not* a portrayed scene.

Also, direwolves. SFX did an amazing job on Grey Wind and Ghost.

[jouzinka]

I have to admit that I am mostly pleased with HBO's choice of casting.  Davos Seaworth was pretty much exactly what I had imagined.

I am very pleased with Liam Cunningham as well. And today I was looking at Arya, Ned and Catelyn and thinking: just -how- does it happen that three unrelated people look so alike?

I believe that I read somewhere that they are including the third book as well, so that Jaime Lannister could get some screen time, which is why the frantic pace, probably. More plot holes, YAY! Well, maybe not holes, but stumbles surely.

They had

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Stannis fucking Melisandre, which totally does not make any goddamn sense to me.

It is completely against every characteristic portrayed. There were hints of it in the book, yes, but they were rumors of the smallfolk mostly, and assumptions made by the bannermen. Unless I'm misremembering, this was *not* a portrayed scene.

As someone who has read it recently (I finished the book yesterday ), no, this was not a portrayed scene. AND one that doesn't make sense for Stannis, although, truth be told,

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

The Shadow that Melissandre gives birth under Storm's End that later throws Cortnay Penrose from the tower had to be born of something.

I argued my brother all day yesterday that Stannis fucking Melissandre is more out-of-character than Robert giving up whoring.

Edit: Also, Stannis is the middle brother in the books. He's just the older of Renly, which is why he says: "I am the older brother I have a claim (to the throne)." Or something to that effect.

[Rhapsody]

I am very pleased with Liam Cunningham as well. And today I was looking at Arya, Ned and Catelyn and thinking: just -how- does it happen that three unrelated people look so alike?

I said much the same thing. Maisie Williams with short hair and Isaac Hempstead-Wright with longer hair look so similar it's very hard to believe they're not related somehow. Which is not 100% by the books; only Arya and Jon looked like Ned Stark. Robb, Sansa and Rickon took more after Catelyn's red/auburn-haired Tully looks.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Though I'm convinced Jon was actually Ned's nephew, not his bastard.

I believe that I read somewhere that they are including the third book as well, so that Jaime Lannister could get some screen time, which is why the frantic pace, probably. More plot holes, YAY! Well, maybe not holes, but stumbles surely.

I hated Jaime until he became a POV character.

As someone who has read it recently (I finished the book yesterday ), no, this was not a portrayed scene. AND one that doesn't make sense for Stannis, although, truth be told,

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

The Shadow that Melissandre gives birth under Storm's End that later throws Cortnay Penrose from the tower had to be born of something.

This is what I meant when I said "hinted at in the books", but honestly, we don't know exactly who or what caused that. It's mostly just assumptions and rumors on the part of nobles and commoners alike.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I argued my brother all day yesterday that Stannis fucking Melissandre is more out-of-character than Robert giving up whoring.

Totally. He couldn't unbend enough to spare Davos his poor fingers. He's certainly not going to unbend enough for that.

Edit: Also, Stannis is the middle brother in the books. He's just the older of Renly, which is why he says: "I am the older brother I have a claim (to the throne)." Or something to that effect.

Stannis just acts like such an old man, and is written as an older man (bald, greying beard, anal-retentive nature, etc), I just assumed he was the eldest. :)

But yes. He is Robert's true heir, since Robert didn't have any trueborn children. Gendry's the eldest, and Robert didn't even acknowledge him (though apparently he arranged for an excellent trade apprenticeship, or Jon Arryn did on his behalf). Joffrey's rampage ended most of their claims, and of the surviving bastards:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Edric Storm is under Stannis' protection, Mya Stone is under Lysa Arryn's (and by extension Littlefinger's), and Gendry is with the Night's Watch at least until they get to Harrenhal

[Shjade]

Totally. He couldn't unbend enough to spare Davos his poor fingers. He's certainly not going to unbend enough for that.

Davos didn't have magic on his side. Considering the other things she's accomplished, I would not be at all surprised to find she has the ability to bewitch even someone as staunch as Stannis into doing things he would otherwise never have done.

[jouzinka]

I said much the same thing. Maisie Williams with short hair and Isaac Hempstead-Wright with longer hair look so similar it's very hard to believe they're not related somehow. Which is not 100% by the books; only Arya and Jon looked like Ned Stark. Robb, Sansa and Rickon took more after Catelyn's red/auburn-haired Tully looks.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Though I'm convinced Jon was actually Ned's nephew, not his bastard.

True that. Honestly, TV Show Jon looks most like a Baratheon bastard. But they all _do_ look like they are related, although I think that Theon Greyjoy should have been cast different. Alie is great, but he looks a _lot_ like Robb. Or maybe we'll get to learn something much later...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Nice theory that Jon is not actually Ned's, it would explain the silence, but whom do you think? Brandon's? He was betrothed to Cat (not that it would stop him ). Benjen's? Come to think of it, he could be their brother, in theory. Rickard died 282, Jon was born some time 283... He and Benjen looked enough alike...

I hated Jaime until he became a POV character.

Agreed. He comes second after Gregor Clegane for me, though.

This is what I meant when I said "hinted at in the books", but honestly, we don't know exactly who or what caused that. It's mostly just assumptions and rumors on the part of nobles and commoners alike.

Totally. He couldn't unbend enough to spare Davos his poor fingers. He's certainly not going to unbend enough for that.

Yeah, all rumors. There are many that are true and then there are many that are untrue, but really... the man banished brothels on Dragonstone, cut his most loyal man's fingers because that man used to be a smuggler, has a wife that all deem ugly (but hey, they all deem Brienne ugly too, fools), but is known not to have mistresses... But maybe they're just using it to point out that Melissandre does wield some mean magic to be able to do that.

Stannis just acts like such an old man, and is written as an older man (bald, greying beard, anal-retentive nature, etc), I just assumed he was the eldest. :)

But yes. He is Robert's true heir, since Robert didn't have any trueborn children. Gendry's the eldest, and Robert didn't even acknowledge him (though apparently he arranged for an excellent trade apprenticeship, or Jon Arryn did on his behalf). Joffrey's rampage ended most of their claims, and of the surviving bastards:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Edric Storm is under Stannis' protection, Mya Stone is under Lysa Arryn's (and by extension Littlefinger's), and Gendry is with the Night's Watch at least until they get to Harrenhal

I agree on all accounts about Stannis. He does seem older in the books, but he is more likely a sharp contrast to Robert and even Renly, who himself paled in comparison to Robert's passion. I mean... the exchange in Highgarden:
- "Do you have a daughter?"
- "I do, Your Grace."
- "Then thank the Gods I am not Robert."

LOL

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I'm actually pretty surprised that they all don't consider Edric Storm's claim. Sure, Gendry and the rest of the bastards do have a claim, but since Edric had also a noble mother, he is the only bastard that Robert acknowledged. Sure, Ned (and half the Vale) knew that Mya was Robert's and how he loved the child long after he'd lost interest in her mother, but she wasn't acknowledged. I imagine bastards do have some claim, more so acknowledged ones, otherwise Cersei's rampage of killing all Robert's doesn't make any sense...

[Rhapsody]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Nice theory that Jon is not actually Ned's, it would explain the silence, but whom do you think? Brandon's? He was betrothed to Cat (not that it would stop him ). Benjen's? Come to think of it, he could be their brother, in theory. Rickard died 282, Jon was born some time 283... He and Benjen looked enough alike...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Lyanna supposedly died of a fever, yet every time Ned recalls the last time he saw Lyanna, there's the smell of roses and blood, and she's begging him to promise her something. It's a fairly popular theory. I believe it, myself. We won't know though until Howland Reed shows up, because he's the only one left alive who knows the truth of Jon's parentage.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I'm actually pretty surprised that they all don't consider Edric Storm's claim. Sure, Gendry and the rest of the bastards do have a claim, but since Edric had also a noble mother, he is the only bastard that Robert acknowledged. Sure, Ned (and half the Vale) knew that Mya was Robert's and how he loved the child long after he'd lost interest in her mother, but she wasn't acknowledged. I imagine bastards do have some claim, more so acknowledged ones, otherwise Cersei's rampage of killing all Robert's doesn't make any sense...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

It wasn't Cersei. It was Joffrey. Because he's an evil little fucker.

This line is simply to make it so my post isn't entirely spoiler tagged. :)

[jouzinka]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Lyanna supposedly died of a fever, yet every time Ned recalls the last time he saw Lyanna, there's the smell of roses and blood, and she's begging him to promise her something. It's a fairly popular theory. I believe it, myself. We won't know though until Howland Reed shows up, because he's the only one left alive who knows the truth of Jon's parentage.

Ohhh...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

It wasn't Cersei. It was Joffrey. Because he's an evil little fucker.

This line is simply to make it so my post isn't entirely spoiler tagged. :)

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Evil takes balls. Joffrey is simply a coward. Still, I think in the books the gold cloaks used the phrase of Queen's orders or something like that. But I'm not re-reading it. >.<

[Lilias]

I believe that I read somewhere that they are including the third book as well, so that Jaime Lannister could get some screen time, which is why the frantic pace, probably. More plot holes, YAY! Well, maybe not holes, but stumbles surely.

So I have to read Storm of Swords back to back as well? Damn... I should refill that Prozac scrip.

[jouzinka]

Well, I've seen him in trailer, while in A Clash of Kings all he gets is an interrogation. Better include some ephedrine too.

Or maybe I should get the book in audio format.

[Lilias]

Audiobooks are a guarantee I won't remember a word in the end. In recent years I tend to listen, even to music, with half an ear at best.

The Kindle, on the other hand, is going to be a big help - better than a wrist brace and varifocals. >_<

[jouzinka]

I never actually tried them, so I wouldn't know.

[Rhapsody]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Evil takes balls. Joffrey is simply a coward. Still, I think in the books the gold cloaks used the phrase of Queen's orders or something like that. But I'm not re-reading it. >.<

Maybe, but don't forget:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Joffrey was also the one to send the assassin to kill Bran Stark before he woke up. Sometimes, it doesn't take balls to be evil, but stupidity. And Joffrey is stupid beyond belief. Must be all that incest.

As for the identity of the person responsible for the thing:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

In the books, Janos Slynt implies that it was Cersei who gave the orders but Janos Slynt is not exactly the most trustworthy of people.

Spoiler for A Dance With Dragons

Which is why Lord-Commander Jon Snow chopped his head off.

In the TV adaptation it was said on-screen in that conversation between Cersei and Tyrion that Joffrey gave the commands, which Cersei found out about after it was all over.

[Remiel]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Joffrey was also the one to send the assassin to kill Bran Stark before he woke up. Sometimes, it doesn't take balls to be evil, but stupidity. And Joffrey is stupid beyond belief. Must be all that incest.

Really? I thought that was Cersei.  Why would Joffrey care if Bran Stark lived or died?

[jouzinka]

*pokes* Okay, I am _not_ reading any more spoilers from you, woman.

Maybe, but don't forget:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Joffrey was also the one to send the assassin to kill Bran Stark before he woke up. Sometimes, it doesn't take balls to be evil, but stupidity. And Joffrey is stupid beyond belief. Must be all that incest.

It's very different to send a man with a blade and wielding the blade yourself.

As for the identity of the person responsible for the thing:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

In the books, Janos Slynt implies that it was Cersei who gave the orders but Janos Slynt is not exactly the most trustworthy of people.

Spoiler for A Dance With Dragons

Which is why Lord-Commander Jon Snow chopped his head off.

In the TV adaptation it was said on-screen in that conversation between Cersei and Tyrion that Joffrey gave the commands, which Cersei found out about after it was all over.

Looks like I'm doing Cersei quite a big injustice. Probably as much as I'm doing Jaime...

Really? I thought that was Cersei.  Why would Joffrey care if Bran Stark lived or died?

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Well, maybe Joffrey knew that he wasn't Robert's son. Hell, given Robert's affection for Mya Stone and his coldness towards Joffrey, I wouldn't be too surprised if Robert knew that his children weren't his, but chose not to expose it for his own pride. But I too thought that Cersei send the knife. It would even make sense for her as it would give her two hits: rid her of Bran AND hit Tyrion with the tale that Littlefinger told. After all, she didn't deny it when Ned confronted her about that (but she didn't confirm it either, true).

[Remiel]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Well, maybe Joffrey knew that he wasn't Robert's son. Hell, given Robert's affection for Mya Stone and his coldness towards Joffrey, I wouldn't be too surprised if Robert knew that his children weren't his, but chose not to expose it for his own pride. But I too thought that Cersei send the knife. It would even make sense for her as it would give her two hits: rid her of Bran AND hit Tyrion with the tale that Littlefinger told. After all, she didn't deny it when Ned confronted her about that (but she didn't confirm it either, true).

I think you're giving Joffrey far too much credit.  Let's face it -- decapitating Ned Stark wasn't exactly the most prudent or politically expedient thing to do. (I'm not spoilering that, by the way, because anyone likely reading this will almost certainly have read book 1 or seen season 1.)  Even Cersei recognized that, in Varys' words, "a tamed wolf is more useful than a dead one."  Joffrey is the quintessential spoiled child-king.  He wants everything his way, and has no qualms about killing others simply out of spite.  I don't think he even knew the truth about Bran's "accident", and even if he did, I doubt he would have sent an assassin to hush Bran up.  More likely he would have condemned the entire House Stark as traitors and slanderers.  No, it makes much more sense for Cersei to have done the deed; as you point out, jouzinka, not only would it have silenced Bran as a witness but it would have been eventually traced back to Tyrion, whom Cersei loathed.  I think Cersei is certainly far more clever than either her son or Jaime,

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

although, given the events later on, perhaps not as clever as she imagines herself to be.

[jouzinka]

I think you're giving Joffrey far too much credit.  Let's face it -- decapitating Ned Stark wasn't exactly the most prudent or politically expedient thing to do. (I'm not spoilering that, by the way, because anyone likely reading this will almost certainly have read book 1 or seen season 1.)  Even Cersei recognized that, in Varys' words, "a tamed wolf is more useful than a dead one."  Joffrey is the quintessential spoiled child-king.  He wants everything his way, and has no qualms about killing others simply out of spite.  I don't think he even knew the truth about Bran's "accident", and even if he did, I doubt he would have sent an assassin to hush Bran up.  More likely he would have condemned the entire House Stark as traitors and slanderers.  No, it makes much more sense for Cersei to have done the deed; as you point out, jouzinka, not only would it have silenced Bran as a witness but it would have been eventually traced back to Tyrion, whom Cersei loathed.  I think Cersei is certainly far more clever than either her son or Jaime,

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

although, given the events later on, perhaps not as clever as she imagines herself to be.

Okay... spoiling a lot ahead...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I fully understand that it makes much more sense for Cersei to want Bran Stark dead and point it towards Tyrion than for Joffrey. This theory is even supported by the fact that Littlefinger gave Cat the tale about the blade being Tyrion's, since Littlefinger is as clearly Cersei's as he'd allow himself to be. Well, it wasn't Jaime, he told Catelyn as much.

Yet, in Storms of Swords Joffrey utters something that lets Tyrion think that the hired knife was actually sent by Joffrey and it makes Tyrion believe that his life is in danger for gathering as much. And why wouldn't it Joffrey point it towards Tyrion when Tyrion is actually the only one who makes any attempt at raising/disciplining him (and partially succeeding, too)?

I know that Joffrey is a spoilt brat and that there are moments where he's really an idiot (such as the street riot), but really, he's a Lannister. And those are all sorts of things, but neither of those presented is stupid.

[Rhapsody]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Joffrey overheard Robert talking about what a sin it was that Bran didn't die in the fall, because his life would be hellish. Joffrey craved his "father's" attention, and did it because he thought his father would approve. The knife was Robert's, which either he gave to Joffrey as a trinket, or Joffrey took our of jis father's things.

[Shjade]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

You guys are using up the spoiler quota for the rest of the forum. Try letting some other threads use those tags once in a while! >:|

Kids today, no sense of spoiler conservation, just leaving their spoilers all over the place like they grow on trees. Back in my day people knew the value of a spoiler tag when they had one. I remember when I was just seven years old there was...*rambleramble*