Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws

[Trieste]

Not only that but a company that's hemorrhaging (the fuck kind of spelling is that word?!) money will not exactly be like, "Let's spend MORE money to open up factories! WHEEE!"

I do understand and, to a point, support the sentiment behind it but ... yeah.

[Ephiral]

OK, firstly a load of hi-tec goods literally cannot be made in the USA.  "Finding someone able to build computers and restore them" is.... is not how literally any part of that works.  There is a colossal difference between the guy you know who can replace your motherboard and large scale manufacturing.  So lets rule that out straight off the bat.  You can't have any more complicated electrical goods, at least not for a generation.

Also, they will be much much more scarce and expensive - PCB manufacture is a pretty hazardous process, which is cheaper in China because China has no fucks to give about worker safety. In the US, these factories will either be seriously illegal, or producing less at higher cost.

[RubySlippers]

Okay could computers be ASSEMBLED in the US? I get for some things its cheaper to make in China but couldn't you put the things together here?

And I have a simple question you all want jobs here in the USA but it seems to me your the ones making excuses for the obvious American consumers are the ones costing us these jobs, with no market which is the point of the boycott idea the companies won't have much choice. As for the costs of building here states and communities are fighting for factories and other businesses they will get help. In fact since would apply to all goods Chinese manufacturers might need to build factories here to sell their foreign goods. It would work.

And even if thrift store and used goods are what people use and those are made abroad your not buying NEW goods are you the goal in my view should be to buy American, but no one seems to like that and it would be to hard. When did to hard mean not do the right thing there is precedent to use consumer economic clout as free citizens to say we don't approve of taxation without representation or we don't approve of this sugar made by slaves. I say we need a moral disgust at the outsourcing of jobs with that same rigor. Many of you sheep disgust me add to that your allowing foreign governments by supporting this to exploit people, poison the planet and makes our nation very vulnerable if we do enter a major war. I'm serious if your patriotic then its about American labor and our ability to build and maintain war production  as much as possible. If you care about progressive issues then there  is labor rights, the environment and fair pay for fair work.

[Kythia]

Did you read the linked article?  Its part of a whole series of seven explaining exactly why that's the case. 

They can't be assembled in the US.  The issue is that because they're not the US lacks the experience to put it together.  This isn't a matter of cost or anything, its a matter of process engineers with the relevant skills.  They'll need training - why I say nothing for a generation.  The US lacks the skills to make this stuff.  Sure, we can say that's a consequence of outsourcing (actually the argument of the linked article) but that doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Saying "it would work" isn't an argument, Ruby.  What makes you think it would.  Trieste points out that your proposed idea would cost companies money, you're saying they should spend even more to build new factories rather than just shrugging and selling to the EU, to Canada, to Asia, to one of the numerous other markets.  I'm not saying it wouldn't - I lack a whole load of knowledge to make that statement one way or the other - but a flat statement that it would is idealism not debate.

Another side issue is that I'm British and Ephiral is Canadian.  We don't necessarily want more jobs in the US, we're not making our nation more vulnerable, etc.  Try to remember other countries exist, and maybe calling people sheep, unpatriotic, etc isn't strictly appropriate.

[Ephiral]

And I have a simple question you all want jobs here in the USA but it seems to me your the ones making excuses for the obvious American consumers are the ones costing us these jobs, with no market which is the point of the boycott idea the companies won't have much choice. As for the costs of building here states and communities are fighting for factories and other businesses they will get help. In fact since would apply to all goods Chinese manufacturers might need to build factories here to sell their foreign goods. It would work.

I don't care about jobs in the USA. I care about there not being catastrophic upheaval that will spill over the border. And no, it wouldn't work, because you're completely missing the point - consumers doing this would wind up exerting more pressure on themselves to give it up (through the overnight loss of all advanced electronics, the starvation brought on by a sudden lack of food imports, the huge amount of international pressure to end the massive trade war they just started, etc) than on companies that will take less of a hit by just ignoring the US market than by building the massive amount of infrastructure your plan would require.

Oniya challenged you to only use American-made goods, so you could see the massive difficulty of what you're proposing. Your response was "My clothes are American!". Good for you. What about the food you eat, the structure of the house you live in, the car your parents drive (chances are it's either Asian or Canadian, regardless of what the badge says), and, oh, I don't know, the computer you're using to post this? How dare you call others sheep in the face of such blatant hypocrisy?

[Kythia]

I don't care about jobs in the USA. I care about there not being catastrophic upheaval that will spill over the border. And no, it wouldn't work, because you're completely missing the point - consumers doing this would wind up exerting more pressure on themselves to give it up (through the overnight loss of all advanced electronics, the starvation brought on by a sudden lack of food imports, the huge amount of international pressure to end the massive trade war they just started, etc) than on companies that will take less of a hit by just ignoring the US market than by building the massive amount of infrastructure your plan would require.

Oniya challenged you to only use American-made goods, so you could see the massive difficulty of what you're proposing. Your response was "My clothes are American!". Good for you. What about the food you eat, the structure of the house you live in, the car your parents drive (chances are it's either Asian or Canadian, regardless of what the badge says), and, oh, I don't know, the computer you're using to post this? How dare you call others sheep in the face of such blatant hypocrisy?

And just to expand on Ephiral's point a little - your response was "I make my own clothes, hence they're American"  That's not creating jobs or an industry, that's taking a step backwards in time to rural self-sufficiency.  Granted in your proposed system everyone would have the time to make their own clothes (because they'd have no jobs taking up their day) but its not a long term solution. 

[TaintedAndDelish]

"They can't be assembled in the US.  The issue is that because they're not the US lacks the experience to put it together. "

Your average PC could be assembled by a child or unskilled worker if done on a production line. Each worker would just be popping one piece in before its passed to the next. The entire process would consist of nothing more than snapping, plugging and screwing parts in.  In a case like this its brainless work. As for tools, you can take most computers ( I can vouch for intel based workstations/servers, laptops, Sun servers ) apart with one or two screwdrivers. ( typically a medium sized phillips head and a smaller one )

Designing a computer from scratch (with pre-made components and boards) takes some knowledge and testing, but that kind of work would be isolated to a small team or possibly outsourced if you really wanted to keep costs down and did not have the know-how to do it yourself. The work involved includes knowing which components to select to fit business/marketing requirements ( ie, targeting a price range and level of functionality, optimizing for cost, power, speed, etc.. ), testing the prototype, ensuring that all drivers and software is compatible and configured properly and that it works etc...

[Kythia]

Yeah, that was true in Victorian England, it no longer is.  Production lines are highly automated things requiring trained process engineers.  To be profitable at least.  Think about how your idea of a production line would work in the modern day.  Each person requires a wage so labour costs would be through the roof.  Your image of a load of people sat side by side and each doing the same task over and over simply isn't how it works any more.

Once again, you can't extrapolate from you or some guy you know who upgrades your computer to a massive industrial process.

[RubySlippers]

Okay lets redirect this a bit what kind of jobs are we providing or planning to provide as a society for those who tested in High School at say the 40th percentile or less in English and mathematics the real key areas for most manufacturing still done in the US, higher skill level ones. And note these students are hardly college material and may have issues with trades (not always but could). Even joining the armed forces going career is less likely according to my father they at least need people with the ability to be broadly trained.

In the 1950's these students would work on an assembly line with blue collar jobs that paid decently enough to support a family, so what are the options?

[Ephiral]

Okay lets redirect this a bit what kind of jobs are we providing or planning to provide as a society for those who tested in High School at say the 40th percentile or less in English and mathematics the real key areas for most manufacturing still done in the US, higher skill level ones. And note these students are hardly college material and may have issues with trades (not always but could). Even joining the armed forces going career is less likely according to my father they at least need people with the ability to be broadly trained.

In the 1950's these students would work on an assembly line with blue collar jobs that paid decently enough to support a family, so what are the options?

You're doing an awful lot of work to avoid saying "I was wrong". You had a bad solution in search of a problem. That said, the answer to this ine is pretty simple. You're asking about unskilled labour, which still exists. The actual problem is how to walk it back to the point where you can have job security and benefits as an unskilled worker.

[Callie Del Noire]

Okay lets redirect this a bit what kind of jobs are we providing or planning to provide as a society for those who tested in High School at say the 40th percentile or less in English and mathematics the real key areas for most manufacturing still done in the US, higher skill level ones. And note these students are hardly college material and may have issues with trades (not always but could). Even joining the armed forces going career is less likely according to my father they at least need people with the ability to be broadly trained.

In the 1950's these students would work on an assembly line with blue collar jobs that paid decently enough to support a family, so what are the options?

In the 1950s.. corporations paid their corporate taxes, we had groups invested in their infrastructure, the government had massive work projects and plans for more. You can't compare the 1950s industrial economy to our corporately raided/pillaged and looted economy of today. In those days it took up to a month for a check in California to clear a New York bank, mail order was something that could take literally months, and logistical planning hadn't ever imagined some of the delivery challenges we take for granted today.

Why don't you try and use a modern industrial economy like.. say.. German rather than saying 'in the good old days.. afore I was born...'