Legend of the Five Rings Discussion

[Chris Brady]

I never said they oppose discipline.  I said they oppose specialization.  There is a huge difference.

Not in L5R.

[kckolbe]

The Crane, particularly the Kakita believe that you pick one path and you devote everything to it.  The Dragon believe that you must learn some of everything, which is why their shugenja and bushi train together. 

[Chris Brady]

What it means is that the Mirumoto learn how to 'read' scrolls, and/or understand what the enchants mean, and the Agasha learn a bit of sword play, but the caste system is still enforced, because the other Clans use it.

[BraveEarth]

So I recently obtained the Second City Box set, (For about $45 yay deal) The Campaign looks fun and I like a great deal of the NPCs in the titular city and the campaign at large, also so many Character sheets ;__;

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Aren't they pretty?

[BraveEarth]

Soooo pretty. @__@

[kckolbe]

Aren't they all in second edition?

[BraveEarth]

Nope 4th

[kckolbe]

OH SHIT!  I am going to have to spend days trying to download that.

[BraveEarth]

Also came with a kickass GM Screen, and a much less impressive set of technique cards. They're kinda cute but meh

[ShadowFox89]

 I would be interested in playing a in a L5R4e game..... I promise I won't vanish >.>

[BraveEarth]

I kind of want to actually set up a "More Ponies for The Wall" for Mumble but would need help setting it up cause of lack of time to run it by myself only

[Tyrhung]

My knowledge of this game is limited, as I've only played it a handful of times.  While I like the system, I feel like nearly anything I say or do is going to force me to commit seppuku.  What can I say?  I'm kind of socially retarded sometimes. :)

I will, however, say that I've heard some fascinating stories - my friend once made a character who specialized in archery, and because of the fact that he took something called 'lucky' and had a high honor, he could almost always make the shot; he could reroll for luck, and reroll based on his honor.  He made some incredibly ridiculous challenges to other people and ticked off a whole bunch of NPC's because he was so good at what he did.

I also heard an interesting tale about the Scorpion Clan.  A Scorpion, a Crane, and a Crab get together to discuss how honorable they all are.  The Crane talks about how he's so honorable, he always keeps his word, does all these good things, etc.  The Crab says that he spends all his time fending off the terrible creatures and protecting the rest of the world.  The Scorpion laughs at both of them and says that his clan is more honorable than the both of them because they are so loyal.  The Crane and Crab scoff at the idea of an honorable or loyal Scorpion... to which, the Scorpion turns and orders his bodyguard to kill him.  Without hesitation, the bodyguard slices off his Scorpion master's head.  The Crane and Crab sit there aghast as the bodyguard then commits seppuku for turning his hand against his master.

I'm not entirely sure it was worth it... but the Scorpion seemed to have won the argument.  :)

[kckolbe]

What I love/get really amazingly frustrated about is that the Scorpion are not the most honorable by a long shot.  They have convinced enough people how useful they are, but they have, in fact, always acted in self-interest.  It's an amazing con that has persisted for centuries.  If you read through the history you'll find that they have failed as the Empire's spymasters in huge ways, often suspiciously.  The Tortoise clan were formed solely to do the kind of work the Scorpion are supposed to do, working for the emperor directly.

Even among the clans, the Scorpion are not trusted enough to be of use.  The Crab let the Yasuki family handle their less samurai worthy tasks, and the Kuni are certainly willing to get their hands dirty as well.  Also, if you read the kind of stuff the Kuni did to learn about the Taint, those were some horrible, tortuous deaths.  The Unicorn and Mantis both rely on foreign entities to do their dirty work. 

The Phoenix, Crane, and Lion (presumably) have made some use of the Scorpion clan's talents, though the only one that comes to mind was the entrusting of the Black Scrolls (which the Scorpion sold).  The Dragon seem to be the only clan that really value the Scorpion, which is because the Scorpion know better than to double cross them.  Unlike the other clans, the Dragon can see past their bullshit.  So the Scorpion come through for Dragon at every opportunity, which does two things for the Scorpion.  First, it keeps their biggest threat off their backs, and second, it allows them to tell the other clans that they are loyal to "true friends," leading to the other clans and individuals to seek their favor.

In short, the Scorpion are every bit as bad as you might suspect.  Their apparent honor is the best-written con I've read, but is nothing more than that.

[Renegade Vile]

You do realize that the Scorpion not being honorable is the whole point, right? There were no more duties left for Bayushi to do when each Kami received their responsibilities. So, when prompted, he decided to sacrifice his own honor by doing all the dirty work and machinations that needed to be done, so the others can keep their honor intact and without blight. He would be a villain so they could be heroes. It's in that self-sacrifice that lies their honor. Some have perverted this ideal, certainly, but they are the most loyal to Rokugan, because they give up what's most important to a samurai without a second thought: their honor.

The fact that some clans frown upon them, means they are too foolish to understand what the whole point of their existence is. Without this sacrifice, bushido would have perverted long ago and Rokugan would be a very different place, where corruption is rampant and few can claim to live a life of governing without getting their hands significantly dirty. They're the dark aspect that's necessary to keep a balance and they play this card out masterfully.

They are one of the most honorable, because they surrender their honor, thereby being utterly honorless. A nice duality that's always been one of the main factor for why fluff-based players pick the clan. Self-sacrifice is a very interesting aspect of any goal or story element and if the Spider didn't exist, I'd most likely play Scorpion in the CCG and RPG.

[kckolbe]

Renegade, I realize what some early Scorpion did.  My point was that they have ridden that reputation.  Also, again, if you want to talk about sacrifice, try voluntarily sacrificing oneself to the Taint, letting your peers observe, vivisect, and then execute you once you have been completely corrupted. 

[Chris Brady]

I've already stated why I don't like the Scorpion, as written.  After all, the best secrets are dead secrets...

[ShadowFox89]

I've already stated why I don't like the Scorpion, as written.  After all, the best secrets are dead secrets...

But dead men, tell no tales.

....wait, that's pirates, not ninja.

[Renegade Vile]

Renegade, I realize what some early Scorpion did.  My point was that they have ridden that reputation.  Also, again, if you want to talk about sacrifice, try voluntarily sacrificing oneself to the Taint, letting your peers observe, vivisect, and then execute you once you have been completely corrupted.

Some early Scorpions? It's been their charge since the very beginning and one of the biggest points of Bayushi Shoju's actions. As for your example, I never said the Scorpions are the only ones who make sacrifices. Every clan does so in the pursuit of their duties. So your point is moot. The Scorpion clan's sacrifice is their honor. The Crab sacrifice their lives on the Wall. The Mantis sacrifice their lives at sea. And so on.

I've already stated why I don't like the Scorpion, as written.  After all, the best secrets are dead secrets...

I disagree strongly. Dead secrets can be dug up by those you don't want to have that knowledge. Safeguarded secrets can be protected. It would be naive to assume that "dead" secrets remain that way. I'm not going to argue that the Scorpion are selfless in their ideals and goals, because they aren't. But the're no more out for themselves than most of the others in some shape or form, as is evidenced by almost every clan having fought almost every other clan at some point, rarely over matters that didn'th ave something to do with money or power.

[Chris Brady]

Some early Scorpions? It's been their charge since the very beginning and one of the biggest points of Bayushi Shoju's actions. As for your example, I never said the Scorpions are the only ones who make sacrifices. Every clan does so in the pursuit of their duties. So your point is moot. The Scorpion clan's sacrifice is their honor. The Crab sacrifice their lives on the Wall. The Mantis sacrifice their lives at sea. And so on.

And the Scorpion sacrifice everyone else.  And are super smart, knowing everyone's secrets.  Bayushi Shoju, the man who married Bayushi Kachiko?  The 'real' mastermind behind the Scorpion during the 1110s?

I disagree strongly. Dead secrets can be dug up by those you don't want to have that knowledge. Safeguarded secrets can be protected. It would be naive to assume that "dead" secrets remain that way. I'm not going to argue that the Scorpion are selfless in their ideals and goals, because they aren't. But the're no more out for themselves than most of the others in some shape or form, as is evidenced by almost every clan having fought almost every other clan at some point, rarely over matters that didn'th ave something to do with money or power.

That's assuming the Scorpion keep the secrets on physical things like scrolls.  Which is a liability, as someone other than you can find it.  And everyone wants their secrets back.  Not to mention that no security system is perfect, and someone WOULD find a way in.  So how else?  Well, orally.  But the vagaries of memory, but there's no physical evidence.

Thing is, kill that person who holds the secret and boom, dead secret.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that although all the clans have fought each other at one point, but they also have alliances.  No one allies themselves with the Scorpion openly.  So if a bunch of clans decide that the best way to deal with this repository of treason (their own or someone else's) then they will gather their buddies up and simple burn the target to the ground.  But who'll come to the Scorpion's defense?

I can tell you who:  No one.  Simply because good secrets are dead secrets.  So you simply burn the buildings to the ground, kill every person, and then declare the Scorpions as 'traitors to the empire', and no one will come to their defense.

And that's the biggest issue with the Scorpion as written.  But as they were John Wick's favourite clan, that's how they got to be, despite the inconsistencies and silliness of that premise.

The Scorpion clan should have been Spymasters that served all the clans, not just themselves as some sort of super mafia.

[Renegade Vile]

That's assuming the Scorpion keep the secrets on physical things like scrolls.  Which is a liability, as someone other than you can find it.  And everyone wants their secrets back.  Not to mention that no security system is perfect, and someone WOULD find a way in.  So how else?  Well, orally.  But the vagaries of memory, but there's no physical evidence.

Thing is, kill that person who holds the secret and boom, dead secret.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that although all the clans have fought each other at one point, but they also have alliances.  No one allies themselves with the Scorpion openly.  So if a bunch of clans decide that the best way to deal with this repository of treason (their own or someone else's) then they will gather their buddies up and simple burn the target to the ground.  But who'll come to the Scorpion's defense?

I can tell you who:  No one.  Simply because good secrets are dead secrets.  So you simply burn the buildings to the ground, kill every person, and then declare the Scorpions as 'traitors to the empire', and no one will come to their defense.

And that's the biggest issue with the Scorpion as written.  But as they were John Wick's favourite clan, that's how they got to be, despite the inconsistencies and silliness of that premise.

The Scorpion clan should have been Spymasters that served all the clans, not just themselves as some sort of super mafia.

I didn't say they kept secrets on physical media, and they don't need to. Secrets can be more than just political. Some can relate to the Shadowlands, and those secrets can be dug right back up, whether the lastp erson who knew about it is alive or not. As for dead secrets, you'd essentially make it a secret police that executes people the moment they know something about someone else? Keep in mind that the Scorpion do not use this information only for themselves, that's a gross oversimplification of what they do in the setting most of the time. Again, their courtiers often dabble in secrets and use blackmail and extortion to get done what they believe is best for Rokugan. But, at the same time, they've also done great good in rooting out corruption and perversion in other clans by actually giving those secrets to the right people. True, they usually want something in return, but their clan needs to be able to feed itself, so to speak.

As for alliances, the Scorpion had good relations with the Dragon several times in history. The Mantis and Phoenix have no issue with them beyond regular prejudice that all clans are subject to (Crab are barbarians, Lions are single-minded aggressors, Mantis are pirates, etc). Their only real, constant foes have been the Crane and Lion, who are also consistently at each other's throats. You'd be surprised how many samurai will object to seeing an entire clan just wiped out because someone doesn't want their secrets leaking out. The Scorpion keep tabs on everyone, meaning that whomever attacks them, could learn things about all other clans that those clans want to keep silent. The reason the Scorpion haven't been openly engaged too many times (it has happened, mind you, but it's been far rarer than the Lion engaging in open warfare, for example) is because Rokugan would explode in civil war as everyone would either want to make sure no one finds out about their dirty business, or they want to get their hands on dirty business of others.

You still haven't pointed out a single inconsistency or why they are silly in the messages I've read (I haven't backtracked to any earlier posts, mind you). I fail to see what the problem with the Scorpion are. They are literally meant to represent the necessary evil of ANY society. They are not and never will be, unless they are poorly written, true villains. They portray themselves as such to protect them. They revel and thrive in the fear they cause, as was the intent of Bayushi. Because the intrigue in ficitons is usually the most interesting, all the good work they do isn't shown, but there have been many assassinations that the Scorpion have actually prevented, and their aid against the Shadowlands has never been something to neglect. Many Emperors also confided in one or more Scorpion clanners and men like Bayushi Paneki were extremely respected and had many genuine allies and friends in other clans. The Scorpion also tend to aid minor clans that are struggling, not the least of which is the Monkey clan.  Let's also not forget that Bayushi Kaukatsu's death was mourned by quite a few prominent members of other clans. While he too was crafty and sneaky as all hell, he had proven time and again to be looking out for Rokugan as much as for his own clan.

I can give more and clearer examples, but I feel I'm starting to rant and few people stay interested in my rants past the one minute mark *laughs*.

[Chris Brady]

Because the Scorpion KNOW EVERY SECRET.  It's why they keep everyone off their backs.  Which is impossibly Mary Sue that it defeats any justification.  Or even if they 'pretend' to know every secret, someone is going to call them out, polite society or not.  They're impossible to manage as the 'Super Blackmailers of the Clans who have the Emperor in their back pocket', because secrets have a nasty tendency of biting people in the back.  And those who have the most are always suspected as the perpetrators or the most to lose.  And they will lose.

And I'd like to ask, how well did the Yogo keep their secret?  Seeing as it came back and bit everyone on the arse in one tourney.

[Renegade Vile]

Let's not bring the tournaments into these, as they tend to only destroy fluff and nothing else.
As for every secret, they claim to, but they don't, otherwise they would've known about the kolat. If anything, the Scorpion haven't been allowed to do anything competent for many editions now, despite them having a decent player base and doing relatively well in tournaments in certain editions. They are supposed to be the master spies yet every major event just slipped them by without them even noticing. But, I suppose that's another matter entirely, just like how the Lion tend to lose most of their wars and conflicts despite normally being the best at tactical land battles. And the Scorpion have never had the Emperor in their back pocket. Most Scorpions are loyal to the Emperor as much as any other clansman that doesn't want someone else on that throne. Not even the Crane have ever disputed whether or not the Scorpion serve the Emperor. The problem is that in court, everyone wants to serve him the best, for that brings the most wealth and influence for the clan. The Scorpion just play the game far dirtier than others (though the Crane are backstabbers as well).

[Chris Brady]

Let's not bring the tournaments into these, as they tend to only destroy fluff and nothing else.

You HAVE to bring in the tournaments in, because that's where they GET all the story and fluff from.  There's no escaping it.  All the dumb and silly things that's happened on the RPG timeline has been because the CCG is much, much, much, much more important than any silly book will ever be.  Simply because the card game is oodles more profitable.

[HairyHeretic]

This isn't L5R, but I think it might be of interest to those who enjoy L5R. It cropped up on my Facebook earlier today.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/381911690/a-world-of-dew-a-samurai-noir-role-playing-game

There's a day or so left if you decide you want in on it.