Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time

[Beorning]

Okay, so I just watched this trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11ZozKfRqvA

I'm intrigued, especially as this show will feature Rosamund Pike (whom I love). That said, I don't know anything about the novels - aside from the fact that they exist and seem to be quite popular.

So... could anyone tell me more of these books and Robert Jordan in general? I'm not asking for spoilers... in fact, I'd ask you not to spoil :) But in general - are these books good? And how does this trailer look when compared to them - i.e. faithful, not faithful..?

[clonkertink]

Ooh, neat.

Honestly, I feel like WoT might be one of those stories that's better in film/television format. I read up to about book 7 or so as a teenager, and I quite enjoyed them... until the Crossroads of Twilight. Crossroads could basically be summed up as: "Here's what everyone else was doing during the last chapter of the last book", and it bored me to tears.

That said, I always enjoyed the worldbuilding, and it had a lot of cool ideas. I'm looking forward to this.

Interesting that the trailer leads with Moiraine as kind of a perspective character. As I recall, she was sort of aloof and mysterious for the first chunk of the series - the novels start with the Two Rivers folks leading their normal fantasy-peasant lives, and Moiraine is sort of the Gandalf figure that rolls in and says, "Saddle up, bitches! We're goin' on an adventure!"

[HairyHeretic]

All in all its a pretty decent series. The first time I read it, it took me til book 3 to really get into it, and given its a 13 book series, it does drag a bit in places. When it was being written, the joke was it was taking so long that the author would die before it was finished. And then he did. But he left notes for the last 2 or maybe 3 and the series was finished off okay.

There are a few things I understand have changed in the series (making the characters a bit older for instance .. late teens to early twenties I believe) but I'm certainly willing to give the first few episodes a try and see how they measure up to the books. Much of the trailer looks good, though I might point out a couple of things that seemed a little off. They're not really enough to spoil the show for anyone who hadn't read the books yet though.

[Beorning]

Any weird philosophical or political ideas hidden in these books? I recall that one fantasy author was criticized here on E for that... although I think it was the guy behind the Sword of Truth books..?

[Oniya]

It might help if you know that this is the series that the Aes Sedai come from.  Fairly sure that there have been some RPs around here with that - erm - dynamic.  There's definitely some pseudo-Oriental stuff going on (the yin-yang is prevalent), and certain abilities are supposedly sex-linked (as in 'men are/aren't/shouldn't be able to do this thing.')

[Beorning]

Is the series very Tolkien-inspired? The trailer made me think it might be: there's a wizard-type leader of the party, a "Dark One" returning, an army of brutal monsters... and, even, some creepy thing in a hood...

Again, no spoilers, but doesn't it all look a bit like LOTR..?

[Oniya]

Orphan boy, raised by relatives, is tied to the defeat of the Ultimate Evil?

Am I talking about Frodo, Luke, or Harry?

[clonkertink]

"Frodo, Luke, or Harry" is the title of my crossover slashfic RP. >.>

[HairyHeretic]

I wouldn't say it takes much from LotR, but there are plenty of fantasy tropes that will allow you to make that kind of connection.

What you're seeing in the trailer doesn't put those elements into perspective. They will make more sense once you start to learn more of the story.

One thing I have noticed on subsequent watches of the trailer though ...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

it sounds like Moraine is saying the you-know-who is going to be one of the five from Emonds Field. If so, that's going to be a major deviation from the books.

[thymoit]

Honestly, I feel like WoT might be one of those stories that's better in film/television format. I read up to about book 7 or so as a teenager, and I quite enjoyed them... until the Crossroads of Twilight. Crossroads could basically be summed up as: "Here's what everyone else was doing during the last chapter of the last book", and it bored me to tears.

I pretty much agree with this.  The first book is awesome and epic.  A very good and fast read and written to standalone.  When it went big the author put all his ideas into the other books and the series slowed down a lot.  There are great ideas, awesome over the top scenes, but there also used to be a saying "Friends don't let friends read the Wheel of Time" and that was because it's huge and there were big gaps between the books in the series.  Also things like Clonkertink mentioned - a whole book with everybody having WTF reactions to the previous book - what a waste.  I think I abandoned when Clonkertink did at the Crossroads of Twilight.  I was waiting for it in eager anticipation and... got a book of everyone reacting.  Bleh.

Not that it was just that book.  There was another subplot where a couple of characters are in hiding and join the circus and we have multiple chapters of meaningless side characters as they slowly cross the continent - whereas in previous books there were multiple magical ways of zipping from point A to point B to avoid doing a LOTR style trudge across the continent.

So in film/television format it could work - depending on if they cut the right things and don't pull a Game of Thrones with a horrible forced ending.

It might help if you know that this is the series that the Aes Sedai come from.  Fairly sure that there have been some RPs around here with that - erm - dynamic.  There's definitely some pseudo-Oriental stuff going on (the yin-yang is prevalent), and certain abilities are supposedly sex-linked (as in 'men are/aren't/shouldn't be able to do this thing.')

And also about how they handle this.  Part of the premise is that magic is gender based.  Males can't work Saidar (the female half) and women can't work Saidin (the male half) and they do different things.  Men are usually stronger as individuals, but women can link up and share power.  A huge part, not really a spoiler because it will be revealed early, is that Saidin is tainted and all male users go made.  As a result of the only magic users who don't go insane being female, there is a strong bias that for women being the more powerful gender.  This results in having strong female characters which could subvert the usually fantasy genre emphasis on strong males - but it's subverted because there are three very strong male characters who are always bucking female authority.  If they let the strong female characters (like Moiraine) shine, that would be true to the books.  If they just use strong females as adversaries to be overrun by the males, then they will lose a lot of what made Wheel of Time different.

[Azy]

I read up to about half way through book 5 I believe in high school.  The books were thick.  I just grabbed book 4 off my shelf and it is 980 pages.  They are all about that long.  Hopefully this doesn't spoil too much, but there was some splitting up, and it got a little hard for me to keep track of who was doing what.  I'm glad I saw this because I will probably watch to see how good it is.  There is potential for it to be really good. 

[Beorning]

Just started watching. One episode in...

Anyone else? Any impressions?

For those who have also read the books: does the show screw up anything important?

[RedRose]

I'm hesitating, do I watch or wait for the french

[Beorning]

I watched all three episodes that were released today. Not bad!

... I think, at least? I mean, I haven't read the books.

I have two observations, though:

Observations

Firstly, I feel like the show could use a bit more of worldbuilding in these first episodes. What are the trollocs, exactly? And who is the Dark One? People in this story are talking of him (?) like he's something obvious and known to everyone. So... some background could be useful?

Secondly - I can't help thinking that the story is treading in Lord of the Rings' footsteps. The main characters coming from a cheerful village where people are oblivious to the problems in the wider world? Check. An army of savage monsters? Check. Hooded spectral / demonic riders hunting the heroes? Check. The initial party getting scattered after a while? Check... Obviously, there's more to the story than these LoTR-esque aspects - nevertheless, it feels weird.

Overall, though, I'm hooked and I want to know what happens next!

Also... Rosamund Pyke as Morraine <3

[RampantDesires]

Am not sure what to spoiler here so just kind of mashing it all in there

The books kind of dump you into the middle of things in the beginning as well and then as the characters learn and are exposed to/explained things it makes more sense.  I kind of like that there's no big info dump.  These be farm kids going off on an epic adventure trope, it helps me as the audience empathize with them more because yeah I have no idea what's going on either :P  If I understood more about the world I would be far more judgy about their ignorance and missteps along the way (which ABSOLUTELY happened to me later on in the books when they STILL pulled the head in the sand bullshit, 'come on y'all you know better')

Rosmund Pike is life though, agreed <3  I'm glad you enjoyed them enough to keep watching Beornig!

[Phoenixrisen]

I think this whole thing could be a spoiler for anyone who hasn't read the books.

It's not too far from the books so far. There are some major deviations, but I think they did them to keep from spending an entire season just getting out of Emond's Field (the town). They did lose Rand getting it put into his head that he's not actually Tam's son, which becomes a major plot point in the books, so there's that. I also think they're condensing some book two stuff into it too, but I haven't reread the first book all the way through yet so I'm not positive on that. It's been a while.

for reference I believe they're not fully out of Emond's Field until around chapter sevenish, and we're talking meaty chapters. Lots of dialog which would definitely bog a show down.

[Iniquitous]

First - Hairy ... 15 books lol

Second - I binged all three episodes that dropped Thursday night that night. A couple things made me quirk a brow but otherwise the show is awesome and seems to be trying to stick with the source material.

Highly recommend.

[Azy]

I watched the first episode.  I liked it well enough.  It's been so long since I read the books that I couldn't say how closely they are being followed.  There were some differences I noticed.  In the book I'm pretty sure the Perrin character is described as blond, and I don't remember him being married at the beginning, but maybe I forgot.  But the picture of him is stuck in my head as this tall muscular blond guy.  And the guy with Moraine, Lan?  In the book he was described as this big hulking guy, and the actor isn't much taller than Moraine.  It seemed very much like they were playing fast and loose with the original character descriptions to make an ethically diverse cast.  I could have a faulty memory and be wrong.   

[Chulanowa]

I gave up on reading the series after the second book. I found it a pretty generic story ("Chosen One Orphan Boy Saves World From Ancient Evil" as seen upthread) and frankly I don't have the time in my life to just casually read fifteen brick-sized books.

The series seems alright so far. The screenplay is pretty clearly heavily adapted, but I think that's necessary; not just for the usual reasons of translating print to series, and tailoring scripts and such... but also because quite frankly no one actually wants to be saddled with another clown car like Game of Thrones - Wheel of Time will absolutely not be an eight-season affair and I don't imagine they'll even adapt a full fifth of the books into the series.

The one thing that I genuinely disliked was that... well, it's kind of ugly. The costuming is awful, it looks sort of like everyone just stopped by the mall on the way to set. Moiraine's outfit in particular looks like she mugged Wanda Maximoff. The sets aren't amazing either, and have the same plastic-y, clearly artificial vibe that you would expect from a 1990's television fantasy like Xena. The effects aren't bad, but also aren't spectacular, they look like early Marvel Studios stuff. I have no idea where that $10 million-per-episode budget is going, maybe the horses eat a lot?

Anyway, it's watchable, but I wouldn't classify it as "great." It's generally better than say, "Chronucles of Shanarra" was, but not amazingly so.

[RedRose]

Shannara was horrible
I have hope here

[Oniya]

Not gonna lie, I found Shannara to be more blatant LOTR-with-the-names-filed-off than Wheel of Time.

[Azy]

I liked Shannara.  All of the stories are kind of similar.  Ancient evil awakens and people come together, or there's a chosen one to stop it.  Really the only reason I didn't finish Wheel of Time was because after high school I got more into video games, and stopped reading as much.  The fact that each book was 900 some pages didn't help. 

[Flower]

Watching the first episode meows. Enjoying it so far. Makes me want to finally read the series.

[Phoenixrisen]

So, there's a thing that's been sick in my head since the second episode. Am I the only one that got Fable vibes from the opening scene? I mean, it got the point across regardless, but come on. Tell me I'm not the only one that saw it

[Azy]

I'm not really making the connection, other than they had to leave their village because it was attacked. 

[Phoenixrisen]

The opening scene in episode two was the white cloaks. What the Questioner was eating had very crunchy chick vibes.

[Haloriel]

There's an audiobook version of the first book in the series, The Eye of the World, read by Rosamund Pike. I thought I'd mention this because it's related, and listening to a sample was fantastic. She has such a pleasant voice, and I don't say that lightly!

[Envious]

Got sick of the books and stopped about half way through (wiki'd the endings to satisfy my curiosity). If I had to read one more braid tug, I was going to flip my shit.

[Flower]

I think I already have an idea of who the dragon is. Squeee! Can't wait to be proven wrong or right.  ;D

[Azy]

I think I already have an idea of who the dragon is. Squeee! Can't wait to be proven wrong or right.  ;D

Who do you think it is?

[Flower]

I'm leaning towards Matt.

[Azy]

I think I had a pretty good inkling toward the end of the first book, but the show is leaving stuff out I think.  It seems like 1 episode covers 3-4 chapters.   

[Wistful Dream]

I lost the book series at book ten, Crossroads like others explained. And I've never been tempted back into it. Honestly I find the show so much better than the books. The diversity, the female characters being so much more varied, and the relationships in general are profoundly improved.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Perrin's wife was an interesting choice. Pho, my spouse, who's watching with me asked if she had been in the books and when I said no his response was "They didn't give him a wife, they gave him a complex" And.... kind of agree with that.

Also, pillow friends?! That last episode was ALL the feels and I love what they did with it so damn much.

I will say...not just braid pulling but the fact that Jordan would write angry women as crossing their arms under their breasts and pushing up killed me. I'm so glad that hasn't made it into the show.

[Azy]

While the book series was pretty good if you could get through it, I do think it's better suited as a TV series.   

[HairyHeretic]

I'm not sure I like what the TV show is doing with Mat though. He was a trickster and a scoundrel, but not the outright thief (and tbh a bit of a scumbag) that the show is portraying him as. I'm hoping that will change.

[Flower]

Another lovely episode.

Episode 7

What am awesome intro. I was loving every second of badassery!!!

[Oniya]

I will say...not just braid pulling but the fact that Jordan would write angry women as crossing their arms under their breasts and pushing up killed me. I'm so glad that hasn't made it into the show.

So - while the 'here are my boobs' aspect is annoying in the descriptions, I found myself noticing that this is exactly where one's arms normally fall when crossing them naturally.  Elbows right around the waist (maybe a bit up, but not much), which tends to fall underneath the bust.  There's also the 'tuck your hands into your armpits' pose, which covers the chest area, but looks even more like a pouting five-year-old.

[Wistful Dream]

The descriptors are annoying, but also I suppose I should have factored in my own breast size. My arms don't normally fall under my breasts, it feels more awkward that way.  ;D

[Beorning]

Okay, after watching the latest episode, I have to say it again:

How about some world-building, please???

It's so frustrating that our heroes are heading toward a confrontation with the Dark One, there's one episode of Season 1 left... and we're still not being told what the Dark One even is..!

I mean, is it a he? A she? A super-powerful and corrupt wizard? A demon? Does it have a physical form or is it a trapped spirit?

It's hard to be excited about the coming (?) confrontation, when we still don't know what exactly the heroes are going to be confronting! Aaagh!

Also - a question:

Big spoiler, I guess

Could someone explain the logic behind Rand's realization to me? Okay, so he came to think that he's the Dragon - but what's his reasoning, exactly? Yes, he found out he could channel - but so can Nyneave and Egwene... and Nyneave seems way more powerful (also, Perrin is getting weird, too). And yes, he found out that he was born at the slope of that volcano... but it's not like there's a specific prophecy about the Dragon being born there (at least, we haven't heard it...). And yes, he was told so by the Black Wind... but he knows that the Wind lies and says all kinds of things. So, what's his reasoning? What the heck, Rand?

... and what the heck, Morraine? Why did she just accept Rand's proclamation? He suddenly says "I'm the Dragon" and she's like "Great, you're obviously right, let's strike out to fight the Dark One immediately"? Weird...

[HairyHeretic]

Think of the Dark One as an incarnation of Evil.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_One

Spoilery answers

The books go into way more detail about some stuff, one of which is the Karaethon Cycle

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Karaethon_Cycle

These are prophecies concerning The Dragon.

I think in the show Moiraine made mention of them once or twice, but the books go into more detail.

Here's the key bits that point towards Rand

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,
born of a maiden wedded to no man.
He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood

In the books, when Rand is bringing his father back to Emond's Field in the wake of the Trolloc attack, his father is delirious from the wound he took and more or less says he isn't Rand's real father, that he found a child lying in the snow after a huge battle.

At the same time the Dragon was reborn, Moiraine and Suian were novices, and were with an old Aes Sedai who had the Talent of Foretelling.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Gitara_Moroso

She proclaimed the Dragon reborn at that moment and then dropped dead from the shock of it. They then dedicated their lives to finding him. In the books its clearly called out the Dragon is male, but that's one of the things the show has changed.

I guess the reason they haven't gone into more of that detail in the show is partly down to how they've changed things, and partly because most of the main characters aren't aware of it.

[Sethren]

So I vibe with so much of this thread so I just couldn't quote everything lol so I'll try to pick my brain and write what is most relevant.

I understand the frustration of...What's going on? Who's this? What's that! My poor fiance, whose read the books, is being driven mad by my constant questions lol. I am noticing the show really requires you to pay attention to it or you will miss things. That said, I love the show so far, I'm intrigued in reading the books myself. But like others am hesitant given the sheer volume of them and who the hell these days has time to really invest in reading, sadly.

I can see why people get a LOTR vibe off of it but frankly the concept of an unsuspecting hero in a boy, blah blah is just a 'trope' that has helped defined a type of fantasy. It unfortunately, is a chemistry that works for fantasy coming of age stories. More so than people are trying to steal the concept from LOTR.

I think the reason in the show, a lot isn't explained is because I think not a lot is truly and factually known about the dark one and the dragon. This all happened a thousand years ago. And since men aren't even really allowed to channel - use magic - without fear, judgement, superstition - and of course go insane-, a lot of old knowledge has been lost or coveted by the Aes Sedai and other groups of people with old religions. As you'll have noticed in the show, even though the Aes Sedai are mostly treated with respect, they're feared and also hated as well. So magic aka channeling is usually the stuff of 'bad things' for people. Most people keep well enough away from it on principal of just wanting to live normal lives. Even the Aes Sedai although show 'more' control over channeling, even they run the risk of burning out and killing themselves or causing destruction around them. So even woman are wary of it as you see with Nynaeve. Basically ignorance is bliss in this world.

My fiance says the show is definitely drifting from the books but he isn't bothered by it, yet. At least from what he can remember. He's started rereading the series.

I have a feeling that the Dragon is either Nynaeve or Rand. Simply because neither wants it and are really bucking against everything that is happening so far. Then there is the mystery surrounding Rand's past - that the last episode reveals a little bit of- and Nynaeve is proving to be scarily powerful. Though initially my first guess had been Matt - I hope it isn't him because he's already been touched by the darkness, the poor guy. It seems too 'easy' to be Egwene. 

I REALLY want to know what the hell is going on with Perrin and the wolves and the golden eyes! I don't feel like he's the dragon but he's definitely something what with that whole spill.

[Azy]

I do think this show is like the Harry Potter movies.  You understand more if you've read the books because they've cut things out in the interest of time, and yes, they've added some things for dramatic effect. 

[Beorning]

I watched this season's final episode. Aaagh! So exciting... and yet, still no context for what's going on...

This show is frustrating... They spent many minutes on exploring the philosophy of pacifist wanderers that appeared in a side plot - but they forgot to explain the key elements of the main conflict. :P

[Phoenixrisen]

I watched this season's final episode. Aaagh! So exciting... and yet, still no context for what's going on...

This show is frustrating... They spent many minutes on exploring the philosophy of pacifist wanderers that appeared in a side plot - but they forgot to explain the key elements of the main conflict. :P

The lack of explanation of elements that someone who hasn't read at least the first book wouldn't have is a bit troubling. Especially if it leaves folks confused, but those wandering pacifists are, at least a little, important. I haven't read the last books, and it's been a while, so I have no idea how exactly the story ends, but they do have a touch of importance.

[Wistful Dream]

I think it's actually a good way to approach it, in that, we are learning with the younger characters, as the world they knew is totally remade. I think perhaps they wanted that vibe, as I've seen it in other shows lately as well. Rather than a long info dump they let the viewer learn about the show as it goes. Particularly as they've changed some things.

[Azy]

I think it's actually a good way to approach it, in that, we are learning with the younger characters, as the world they knew is totally remade. I think perhaps they wanted that vibe, as I've seen it in other shows lately as well. Rather than a long info dump they let the viewer learn about the show as it goes. Particularly as they've changed some things.

It is that way for the most part if you read the books, if memory serves me.  The troubling thing is they are leaving things out that were in the book that helped explain what was going on.  I think they tried to add it in a bit where was it that gleeman guy who made a comment about Rand's red hair not being very common?  That's important.  While it seemed like they were going for a diverse cast, they kept Rand with red hair as he was in the book because that's important.  I believe it was mention at the very beginning of the book when he's introduced as a character that the red hair makes him stick out from everyone else.  They really nailed that home in the show, because if you noticed, everyone else has dark hair and darker skin, and then there's the tall red head. 

[Beorning]

I think it's actually a good way to approach it, in that, we are learning with the younger characters, as the world they knew is totally remade. I think perhaps they wanted that vibe, as I've seen it in other shows lately as well. Rather than a long info dump they let the viewer learn about the show as it goes.

Yeah, but... actually, I feel we are *not* learning along with the characters. Not when it comes to the key issues.

Let's take the first episode: Morraine appears in the heroes' village and goes "Doom, gloom, the Dark One is waking!". Now, there are two options there:

1. The heroes, just like the viewers, don't know who / what the Dark One is. So, with Morraine giving this warning, it'd only make sense for one of the heroes to ask: "Err, who is the Dark One, lady?". Cue: exposition, the viewers learn at least a little about the Dark One.

2. The heroes actually know who the Dark One is. It could be a common knowledge in this setting, after all. If so, then of course, the heroes won't be asking Morraine for explanations - but in that case, the show should find a way of giving some exposition another way.

Meanwhile, what the show does is option #2... but without providing any exposition for the viewers' benefit. We're not learning along with the heroes, because the heroes already seem to know the basic information about the Dark One etc. So, they don't ask questions, just act. But the show doesn't provide that info any other way - as if assuming the viewers know that information, too. But we don't know. So, we get a whole season about characters trying to stop the Dark One... without a single scene explaining who that guy actually is...

There are a few others things left unexplained like that. I.e. the trollocs - no info on what they are, where they come from etc. (even though, in one of the later episodes, the fact that they shouldn't appear in some places, but still do, suddenly becomes a plot point). Or the Fades - I think there's one single sentence of information devoted to them in the whole season, even though they are a recurring threat. Or the Whitecloaks...

Heck, there even are moments when the five young heroes explicitly don't know something - and yet, the show doesn't bother to have them ask any questions (and prompt exposition). For instance, the Black Wind encounter - when it happened, I was intrigued and wanted to learn more. And, considering the scary and confusing nature of the encounter, it'd be perfectly natural for one of the heroes to ask Morraine "What the heck was that???". Meanwhile, everybody just shrugs it off, the story moves on and the viewer is left hanging...

So, overall, I don't agree that the show is doing the "The viewers know as much as the characters" thing. Because, while watching, I was under the impression that all of the characters know more than I do. And I was left to watch the action without knowing the context...