Censorship on E.

[Vekseid]

For the record, backlash84 accidentally sent it to a staff member. Apparently people think we don't talk to each other.

It may be an overly pragmatic way of seeing things but.. this is your site, so *shrugs*. If you or those you appoint to run it make a choice based on the interests of the site or its population as a whole, then that's your decision to make. For instance, opening, closing, locking threads, allowing discussions or not.

I know some other sites and pages where it's just 'no politics or religion'. Anything divisive, but if you foresee this is going to cause more trouble than it's worth, then you have every right to do what you feel is best and right. It is afterall your backyard in a way. You're hosting the site and taking on the responsibility of running Elliquiy.

I have a distaste for permanently closing down discussions, personally. 9 times out of 10 when I did it it was a mistake. The few times where it isn't a mistake are pretty obviously lopsided.

At the same time, overruling staff is not something I'll do at a whim either. It's up to staff to deal with the fallout, after all.

I missed the thread, but you are indicating, backlash84, that you remember it.  Can you recall anything in it that could have been taken as divisive from a perspective other than yours?  After all, one of the best skills a debater can have is an understanding of the other sides' arguments.

See the last line in my post.

That is the reason it got locked. It is not a mystery.

Again, I'm not claiming I agree with the lock, but at the same time, I can certainly understand the concern given the circumstances.

I never said I was offended.  I'm not.

I understand that you're upset about this situation, but I would respectfully ask that you please don't put words into my mouth or tell me what my reactions should or should not be.

My position is that the current situation could have been avoided if it had been handled differently. That's all.

backlash was told that the proper means of handling this is via private conversation with staff. Then he posted this thread.

It got nuked, he wanted it back, so I granted his wish.

[Formless]

And I'm glad you haven't experienced racism against yourself to any major extent. I'm a bit younger, 24, and in my generation it has become a pretty common thing. I've been told my opinion doesn't matter because I'm white, that I don't understand things because I'm white, that I should shut up because I'm white... It's becoming more and more common. Racism is still a big issue for minorities, and I'd never justify that to any extent. I've debated racists often, and will continue to do so. But recently, defending white people has begun to be seen as putting down minorities... and that's just not true.

I'm not afraid of privileges being removed, my right to an opinion however? That does concern me, and that's why I'm continuing to argue this point on this subject.

I've read somewhere an important saying.

"Oppression is not a competition."

We all come across hardships that relates to our origins, beliefs or culture. But under no condition should we wear those hardships as blankets for the rest of our lives. Instead we shrug them off and move on.

In regards to the topic itself, if the Administration saw fit to remove any content for the purpose of perserving civility, so be it. I've been here for a handful of years and I've seen how some civil discussions turn sour quickly, and some of the admins here have been around since the creation of this website. They have enough experience and insight to handle any thread in this website.

This is all I have to say about the topic.

[Kuroneko]

backlash was told that the proper means of handling this is via private conversation with staff. Then he posted this thread.

It got nuked, he wanted it back, so I granted his wish.

That's my understanding of how such things should be handled as well. Thank you for the clarification.

And you are completely fine with said information being used to mock users who disagree with the mod team? You don't view that as at all hypocritical on your part?

Isn't it hypocritical for you to complain about a private message being made public when you yourself did exactly the same thing? It seems to me that you opened the proverbial Pandora's Box first. You also make the assumption that I agree with your point of view and assessment of the situation. There are multiple interpretations here.

Anyhow, I hope this matter gets resolved and I wish you a good evening, Backlash. I have nothing more to say.

[Thesunmaid]

Sorry Backlash but...well you seem to have a fitting name. You seem to want to argue...you seem to want to goad and you seem to revel in arguing with people. I mean its not generally normal to seem proud of being banned from things. There is a such thing as freedom of speech...and you are welcome to say what you want...but others are also allowed to say you are kind of an ass as well. Veks does try to keep this forum as safe and comfortable for as many people as he can. And I for one appreciate the staff here. I was always nervous about going to them and bothering them with things but to my surprise they were very supportive and wonderful when I was in a bad situation. They did not accuse me of making things up and they took care of things for me in a rather upsetting and slightly scary situation for me quickly and quietly and I appreciate that.

There are a lot of topics that just by existing will cause an instant shit storm. It's one of the main reasons I don't bother talking about certain subjects because it will only degenerate into shit flinging and name calling. No matter what the intentions of the post that started out...some things will always light the TNT stick and have to be locked...and you seem quite eager to strike the match and throw. I am basing this purely on your attitude on this thread. I have not read the other thread because I choose to avoid things like that.

There is a difference between censorship and just not wanting to have to deal with the shit storm some people insist on starting. You can feel free to twist my words how ever you like...and roll your eyes and think I am wrong..that's your right...but its my right to say this..calm down. This forum is a wonderful place and you obviously have some intelligence to you otherwise you would have basically gone into swearing and shaking your fist. But seriously..let it go.(no not a frozen reference) Find a nice rp or two and enjoy yourself. I am sure you can find other ways of enjoying this place other than adding it to your list of places that banned you or going off about how they dared to censor you.

Some fights you can't win...and some fights might just not be worth it. Is this one?

[HannibalBarca]

And I'm glad you haven't experienced racism against yourself to any major extent. I'm a bit younger, 24, and in my generation it has become a pretty common thing. I've been told my opinion doesn't matter because I'm white, that I don't understand things because I'm white, that I should shut up because I'm white... It's becoming more and more common. Racism is still a big issue for minorities, and I'd never justify that to any extent. I've debated racists often, and will continue to do so. But recently, defending white people has begun to be seen as putting down minorities... and that's just not true.

It can also make a huge difference where you live, what socioeconomic status you have, and the ethnic makeup of your community.  I've listened to some serious racist language in my life.  My grandfather was saved from drowning by a fellow sailor in WW2 after their ship was torpedoed.  The other sailor was of Filipino descent, and even as an old man, he still didn't have anything good to say about Filipinos other than that one fellow sailor.  His own wife, my grandmother, was a Blackfoot who grew up on a reservation, and he had many ancestors of native American descent in his own side of the family tree, and he never had anything bad to say about them.  Everyone else, though, could go to hell as far as he was concerned.  My father had to constantly confront him whenever we visited, because he didn't want me and my brothers to think what our grandfather said was acceptable.

As whites have shrunk as a majority in this country, a lot of the horrible old stuff has been minimized, but other stuff has stubbornly stuck around.  My dad has told me a lot of what he experienced when he was young (he was born in 1947)...not as much personally, but through his mother and friends of color.  It has gotten better.  However, now, people are more comfortable with expressing their opinions on things that, years ago, would have gotten them ostracized, arrested, or even murdered.  Some of that stuff runs contrary to what a lot of white people have experienced or been taught.  Some of it even goes beyond into the realm of prejudice against white people.  That's to be expected.  If everything was ever truly even in this country, realistically, there wouldn't be a complete removal of racism, but everyone would get an equal dose of it.  There isn't an equality of racism yet in this country.  Getting rid of all of it would be good, but if I have to put up with some as a white man while we work towards everyone getting treated equally, I can deal with it.  I have friends and family who have had to put up with a crapload more suffering, hatred, and humiliation than I'll ever have to deal with.

I'm not afraid of privileges being removed, my right to an opinion however? That does concern me, and that's why I'm continuing to argue this point on this subject.

Keep expressing it, that's a huge part of the point of this entire forum.  We don't have to agree, but it does help to hear each others' perspectives so we can move towards understanding one another.  And maybe there is more we agree with than we thought.  That's what I've tended to learn over the years.  What we have in common is larger than what separates us.

[backlash84]

That's my understanding of how such things should be handled as well. Thank you for the clarification.

Isn't it hypocritical for you to complain about a private message being made public when you yourself did exactly the same thing? It seems to me that you opened the proverbial Pandora's Box first. You also make the assumption that I agree with your point of view and assessment of the situation. There are multiple interpretations here.

Anyhow, I hope this matter gets resolved and I wish you a good evening, Backlash. I have nothing more to say.

I didn't have an issue with it, I was pointing out YOUR hypocrisy by saying it's fine when he does it, but not when I do.

[backlash84]

For the record, backlash84 accidentally sent it to a staff member. Apparently people think we don't talk to each other.

I have a distaste for permanently closing down discussions, personally. 9 times out of 10 when I did it it was a mistake. The few times where it isn't a mistake are pretty obviously lopsided.

At the same time, overruling staff is not something I'll do at a whim either. It's up to staff to deal with the fallout, after all.

See the last line in my post.

That is the reason it got locked. It is not a mystery.

Again, I'm not claiming I agree with the lock, but at the same time, I can certainly understand the concern given the circumstances.

backlash was told that the proper means of handling this is via private conversation with staff. Then he posted this thread.

It got nuked, he wanted it back, so I granted his wish.

And I asked YOU to show me where the hell it has anything close to "claiming it should be okay for whites to use 'nigger' in a general context?", which you have yet to provide, because nothing like that existed.

And I wasn't surprised you knew about it, my argument was that if anyone was offended that I posted what was said, then how the hell do they excuse you using private messages to make fun of someone?

And, as the subject was unlocked, I was proven RIGHT to have POLITELY have come to you about the issue. The reason I started this thread on censorship wasn't because of YOU but of other MODS locking things that you yourself admit shouldn't have been locked in the first place!

[Vekseid]

News flash backlash: I am not beholden to you.

This may come as a shock, so I will give it some time to sink in.

[backlash84]

Sorry Backlash but...well you seem to have a fitting name. You seem to want to argue...you seem to want to goad and you seem to revel in arguing with people. I mean its not generally normal to seem proud of being banned from things. There is a such thing as freedom of speech...and you are welcome to say what you want...but others are also allowed to say you are kind of an ass as well. Veks does try to keep this forum as safe and comfortable for as many people as he can. And I for one appreciate the staff here. I was always nervous about going to them and bothering them with things but to my surprise they were very supportive and wonderful when I was in a bad situation. They did not accuse me of making things up and they took care of things for me in a rather upsetting and slightly scary situation for me quickly and quietly and I appreciate that.

There are a lot of topics that just by existing will cause an instant shit storm. It's one of the main reasons I don't bother talking about certain subjects because it will only degenerate into shit flinging and name calling. No matter what the intentions of the post that started out...some things will always light the TNT stick and have to be locked...and you seem quite eager to strike the match and throw. I am basing this purely on your attitude on this thread. I have not read the other thread because I choose to avoid things like that.

There is a difference between censorship and just not wanting to have to deal with the shit storm some people insist on starting. You can feel free to twist my words how ever you like...and roll your eyes and think I am wrong..that's your right...but its my right to say this..calm down. This forum is a wonderful place and you obviously have some intelligence to you otherwise you would have basically gone into swearing and shaking your fist. But seriously..let it go.(no not a frozen reference) Find a nice rp or two and enjoy yourself. I am sure you can find other ways of enjoying this place other than adding it to your list of places that banned you or going off about how they dared to censor you.

Some fights you can't win...and some fights might just not be worth it. Is this one?

I enjoy debate, which is why I came to the controversial section. I didn't make this personal, I didn't name names, I tried to start a conversation about censorship. I wanted to hear what other people thought of it in general, I didn't resort to mud slinging, in fact the first personal insults you'll find on this thread aren't from me, but they sure are directed at me.

I'm not proud of being banned, but I am not going to back down because someone is in authority. I brought up the possibility of my being banned to explain why I sent PM's to people with my email, so if I did get banned I could continue my stories off site. Vekseid decided to call this "spamming" people, 3 messages were sent.

Believe it or not, I was very polite to everyone before this whole shit storm started. I was polite when I pms the mods, I was polite when I pmed Vekseid, but I can only take being insulted so much before I stop trying to be polite.

[backlash84]

News flash backlash: I am not beholden to you.

This may come as a shock, so I will give it some time to sink in.

So you find it perfectly alright to, and I'm going to list everything in a nice, orderly little row for you.

1: Make unsubstantiated claims about what was said, outright lying about the conversation that was being held.

2: Twisting private messages to act like I'm "spamming" users.

3: Insinuating I was at all rude when I PMed you, your mods, or anyone else before this shit storm blew up, which you started in on the insults.

[MiraMirror]

I didn't have an issue with it, I was pointing out YOUR hypocrisy by saying it's fine when he does it, but not when I do.

You seem quick to judge other people and their supposed hypocrisy, but loathe to accept the same regarding your own hypocrisy.   I'm on a phone, so I'm not making this long, but seriously.   You're talking about how you are mocked with a message that was private, and fine, that sucks, but you did the exact same thing   in your opening post.   Debate is debate, but there's a difference between debate and arguing from what you seem to think is a permanent higher ground where your word is absolute and infallible.

[HannibalBarca]

I saw that Veks used sarcasm in his posts to you.  Knowing Veks, that should be expected.  It doesn't look like insults to me, but then, that's just my opinion.

[backlash84]

You seem quick to judge other people and their supposed hypocrisy, but loathe to accept the same regarding your own hypocrisy.   I'm on a phone, so I'm not making this long, but seriously.   You're talking about how you are mocked with a message that was private, and fine, that sucks, but you did the exact same thing   in your opening post.   Debate is debate, but there's a difference between debate and arguing from what you seem to think is a permanent higher ground where your word is absolute and infallible.

Maybe you should go back and read that first post again, I used EXACT QUOTES, and didn't give any names out. If you can't see the difference, I don't think I can help you.

[MiraMirror]

Maybe you should go back and read that first post again, I used EXACT QUOTES, and didn't give any names out. If you can't see the difference, I don't think I can help you.

I said nothing about you using names.  I said you used a conversation that was private- between you and mod 1- in your opening post.  Vekseid also did not use any names, outside of yours. 

What Veks said was:

Your gaslighting is not going to wash off the manipulative veneer you laid over your first post.

Or spamming a bunch of people with "I'm about to be banned! Here's my e-mail!" ...right.

I don't see anything regarding names there, and I didn't say anything about names in my post, either.

[backlash84]

I didn't name names, so what does that even matter? I was posting it to show what the people in authority on this site say and do. With mod one, I think it actually showed that some mods to a really good job. If things had gone the way he'd said they would, there wouldn't be an issue at all. The second mod is the one that fucked things up as far as I'm concerned.

It's basically the same as filming police officers. Mods police the site, and showing proof of what they do shouldn't be an issue. I didn't use it to mock them, I used it to start a conversation.

[Flower]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. This really seems like something which should be discussed in PMs. It doesn't seem like this conversation is going anywhere constructive.

[Rel Mayer]

E is not governed by fairness when it comes to censorship and perception. E is governed by a select group of individuals with different backgrounds in what is right and wrong, but a core foundation of what a 'social norm' is for Elliquiy. At it's base it's governed by one person who can decide if something is beneficial for the community and who can decide what he wants the community to look like dependent on consumer feedback. To say what is right and wrong is up to perception, but at the end of the day it is decided by what is the social norm of Elliquiy and the vision that the admin has. The social norm is decided by the mass, and that's something that all of us have to eventually accept if we're of different opinion.

At least that is my way of looking at it and how your situation was addressed.

Either way, I understand why you're very passionate about this, but it's getting to the point that no matter what you say it's going to not look good on your part. If you want my suggestion, even though I know you don't think it's right and it's not fair, it's best to take a moment and step away from the situation.

I believe that this thread has also gotten out of hand and should probably be locked. At this point it's people arguing with each other and not even discussing the topic of Censorship.

It's unfortunate that this happened to you, Backlash, but I don't think anyone deserves to be put in a negative light or have mean things said about them. You, admins, other people who have aided in conversation in this thread. Having a different opinion is a good thing, but sometimes there is a certain way to approach delicate topics.

[backlash84]

E is not governed by fairness when it comes to censorship and perception. E is governed by a select group of individuals with different backgrounds in what is right and wrong, but a core foundation of what a 'social norm' is for Elliquiy. At it's base it's governed by one person who can decide if something is beneficial for the community and who can decide what he wants the community to look like dependent on consumer feedback. To say what is right and wrong is up to perception, but at the end of the day it is decided by what is the social norm of Elliquiy and the vision that the admin has. The social norm is decided by the mass, and that's something that all of us have to eventually accept if we're of different opinion.

At least that is my way of looking at it and how your situation was addressed.

Either way, I understand why you're very passionate about this, but it's getting to the point that no matter what you say it's going to not look good on your part. If you want my suggestion, even though I know you don't think it's right and it's not fair, it's best to take a moment and step away from the situation.

I believe that this thread has also gotten out of hand and should probably be locked. At this point it's people arguing with each other and not even discussing the topic of Censorship.

It's unfortunate that this happened to you, Backlash, but I don't think anyone deserves to be put in a negative light or have mean things said about them. You, admins, other people who have aided in conversation in this thread. Having a different opinion is a good thing, but sometimes there is a certain way to approach delicate topics.

I tried to keep this civil, but as you can see in the first few posts of this whole thread, Vekseid didn't feel civility was required, and states so outright.

If they lock it, I can't stop them. But I'm sure as hell never deleting this. I think people should see what happens on here if you question those in charge. They have no problem lying, misquoting you, or just insulting you if they disagree with you.

[MiraMirror]

I tried to keep this civil, but as you can see in the first few posts of this whole thread, Vekseid didn't feel civility was required, and states so outright.

If they lock it, I can't stop them. But I'm sure as hell never deleting this. I think people should see what happens on here if you question those in charge. They have no problem lying, misquoting you, or just insulting you if they disagree with you.

You haven't really been civil either.  I don't like throwing stuff around, but you really do seem like you have some kind of martyr complex.  Veks hasn't done any more insulting than you have, and you're trying to play this up like the staff here is awful or something.  The mods here are damn devoted to what they do, which is a volunteer job, and this is by far the best forum I've been on.  You're acting like they're corrupt or abusive or whatever and it's silly.  That's the last reply I'm posting in here, because it's clear to see you refuse to see anyone's point unless it's someone saying "Aww, you're right, let's crucify the mods."

[backlash84]

You haven't really been civil either.  I don't like throwing stuff around, but you really do seem like you have some kind of martyr complex.  Veks hasn't done any more insulting than you have, and you're trying to play this up like the staff here is awful or something.  The mods here are damn devoted to what they do, which is a volunteer job, and this is by far the best forum I've been on.  You're acting like they're corrupt or abusive or whatever and it's silly.  That's the last reply I'm posting in here, because it's clear to see you refuse to see anyone's point unless it's someone saying "Aww, you're right, let's crucify the mods."

I'm going to disregard this, as you clearly haven't read everything. I insisted on being polite in the first few messages, but was basically told that wasn't necessary. So, I stopped trying to be polite. If you don't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.

[Oniya]

Can you explain how 'remov[ing] any off-topic posts to their own locked area' gives any suggestion that said posts will be able to be replied to?

[backlash84]

Can you explain how 'remov[ing] any off-topic posts to their own locked area' gives any suggestion that said posts will be able to be replied to?

Will you please actually read before you post?

"Staff is discussing splitting the thread off to remove any off-topic posts to their own locked area; if we do, that topic will be open, and you'll be able to return to it. :)

[Eikichi]

Will you please actually read before you post?

"Staff is discussing splitting the thread off to remove any off-topic posts to their own locked area; if we do, that topic will be open, and you'll be able to return to it. :)

Actually. She's right. It in no way states that the off-topic portion will be accessible. "The topic was locked as it had veered from the original topic" was the first thing in the message. It states that the original was locked while they removed the off-topic content. Then THAT would be open. It in no way states the off-topic area would be open.

[backlash84]

Actually. She's right. It in no way states that the off-topic portion will be accessible. "The topic was locked as it had veered from the original topic" was the first thing in the message. It states that the original was locked while they removed the off-topic content. Then THAT would be open. It in no way states the off-topic area would be open.

You people really don't like to read, do you?

Before that. from me: "If that is the case, then I could start my own thread to continue the discussion we were having, as it is then on topic, and no one has violated any rules, correct?"

It was clearly stated that I'd be able to return to the thread that we were discussing once it was separated. When he said the topic would be open again, he obviously mean THE ONE I WAS TALKING TO HIM ABOUT.

[Blythe]

I am Mod1. In the interests of transparency and since things seem to be going poorly, I am comfortable revealing that. I do not particularly have anything to hide from the membership.

I have not lied to you.

I have not insulted you.

I have not twisted your words.

I have, in all our interactions, been very polite to you. I even took the time out to reassure you in PMs you would not be banned simply for disagreeing with Vekseid, although I did try to tell you that the manner in which you debate is important. And I told you how to appeal via the Chain of Command if you disagreed with my actions, because I do believe in being held accountable.

When I referred to "that topic," I was referring to the Andromeda thread being re-opened. My wording was sloppy, but if you read the messages you were sent, you'll understand that the split posts were meant to be removed to a locked topic so that the original topic could be re-opened without any further need for a templock.

Could I have worded it better? Sure. My wording was, admittedly, a bit vague. And I'm sorry about that. But no, I never told you the locked tangent would be re-opened. I was referring to the Andromeda topic being re-opened, which was still locked and not yet split when you PMed me to inquire about the original lock in the first place. :/

If you want to know which post resulted in the mod call that was made that we felt was not appropriate, you can PM me and we can discuss it there. I do not wish to discuss it in public because it involves a post that is neither yours or a moderators, and it is not fair to discuss that in public to that other member.

Actually. She's right. It in no way states that the off-topic portion will be accessible. "The topic was locked as it had veered from the original topic" was the first thing in the message. It states that the original was locked while they removed the off-topic content. Then THAT would be open. It in no way states the off-topic area would be open.

This is correct and was my intention when I sent that PM.