The Inherent Racism of Modern Mainstream Rap Music

[Alixana]

I never suggested that any minority should "talk like white people."  All I said is that certain behaviors and personality traits are frequently associated with those who are successful in their careers.  Look at people who have done well in life, whether it is international giants like Narendra Modi (the prime minister of India) and Alassane Ouattara (the president of Cote d'Ivoire) or simply minorities who have been successful in everyday life (working in management, accounting, teaching, medicine/nursing, etc).  All of these people are successful because they know the importance of operating in a multicultural society, and avoid behaviors that insulate themselves along ethnic lines.

I've been following this discussion for a while, and I wasn't really planning on butting in, but really? Your example of a person who knows how to operate in a multicultural society is Narendra Modi? Hindu Nationalist Narendra Modi? The man who has been dogged for over a decade by (well-founded) accusations that he bears partial responsibility for literally thousands of Muslims murdered in the 2002 Gujarat riots?

When an African American uses the n-word when speaking with other African Americans, or dresses in a manner found in mainstream rap videos, they are essentially making a choice to not participate in the mainstream, multicultural society (a conglomeration of European, Asian, Hispanic, and Black cultures).  Rather, they are making a choice to associate themselves with the image portrayed in the media.

First of all, it's hard to blame most minorities for failing to fully integrate with a society that has been discriminating against them to various degrees for hundreds of years, and continues to do so largely unabated in many regards. Talking about their making a "choice" to not participate in the mainstream sounds an awful lot like talk about how people make a "choice" to be poor or uneducated. Yes, you usually have some degree of choice, but it's really easy to lose sight of the full circumstances when you're looking down from a position of privilege. If you're born into a community where your prospects for success in "multicultural society" are minimal at best, it's pretty hard to turn your back on your friends and family in order to try to integrate yourself into what might as well be a foreign culture - and, on top of that, knowing that you'll be faced with near-constant racism even as you try and do so. And that's just one aspect, not even touching on issues like poverty and education.

Oh, and mainstream American society is very much not multicultural except perhaps at the fringes. The fact that people listen to hip-hop and do yoga and eat Mexican food does not make it any less dominated by white Americans.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is welcoming and pleasant to all people.  I'm not saying this is right, it's just the way of the world.  The likelihood that a minority working in accounting is going to get clients of any race, dressing in saggy jeans and using the n-word, is very slim at best.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is pleasant to people with money and power. In the United States, these people are usually white.

There are really two separate things going on here, though. The first is that there are certain standards that are very much racist, because they are imposed by a white majority/elite. For example, I know that there is a lot of criticism of the expectations around women's hair in the professional realm, because they're often based around what is convenient for white women, even if this can be much more difficult for black women based on the predominant characteristics of those groups' hair (and let's not even get into all the sexist double-standards). There are also major issues around things like discrimination against minority dialects (AAVE being the most obvious one), and, of course, flat-out racism. These and other similar issues can all be major barriers to minorities in the professional world.

But there is also a separate group of issues, which relate primarily to class rather than race, and I think you are conflating the two to some extent. You mentioned people wearing baggy jeans, but it's not as if only black people wear baggy jeans. Most people wear different clothes casually than they do at work, especially if they work in an office or similar environment. Most people speak differently at work and with their friends. If people don't have nice clothes to wear to work and have difficulty speaking and acting in a professional manner, it's not because they listen to too much rap. It's probably because they are poor and uneducated. And yes, there is a significant correlation between your race and your socioeconomic status, and no, it has nothing to do with music videos and everything to do with the fact that American society is very racist. Your elites and to a lesser extent the white majority as a whole has been holding down most minority groups (especially African Americans) for literally hundreds of years at this point. Is it really a surprise that they can't "integrate" fully?

[ningyou]

Okay, first off, (a), quit digging, and (b), there was an employment study done about discrimination based on "black-sounding" names vs. "white-sounding" names on resumes! No showing up for the interview with a clock around their necks, just names on a piece of paper.

Job applicants with white names needed to send about 10 resumes to get one callback; those with African-American names needed to send around 15 resumes to get one callback.

The 50 percent gap in callback rates is statistically very significant, Bertrand and Mullainathan note in Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination (NBER Working Paper No. 9873). It indicates that a white name yields as many more callbacks as an additional eight years of experience. Race, the authors add, also affects the reward to having a better resume. Whites with higher quality resumes received 30 percent more callbacks than whites with lower quality resumes. But the positive impact of a better resume for those with Africa-American names was much smaller.

The experiment, conducted between July 2001 and January 2002, reveals several other aspects of discrimination. If the fictitious resume indicates that the applicant lives in a wealthier, or more educated, or more-white neighborhood, the callback rate rises. Interestingly, this effect does not differ by race. Indeed, if ghettos and bad neighborhoods are particularly stigmatizing for African-Americans, one might have expected them to be helped more than whites by having a "good" address.

Further, discrimination levels are statistically uniform across all the occupation and industry categories covered in the experiment. Federal contractors, sometimes regarded as more severely constrained by affirmative action laws, do not discriminate less. Neither do larger employers, or employers who explicitly state that they are "Equal Opportunity Employer" in their ads.

ningyou, I was not trying to single you out or anything, I was just sharing my thoughts on this subject.

It is safe to say the vast majority of employers (management positions and above) are not black (or minorities, for that matter).  This means that minorities face bias - and a well-documented one at that.  As a result, over the long-term, the goal is to create a society where management positions are equally represented by a variety of races.  This is also why we encourage more women to enter engineering and science fields.

"The vast majority" of employers are not minorities (white. you mean "they're white."), ergo minorities will face bias. You say this without putting any qualifiers or disclaimers on it.

So you're saying that white employers are biased against "minorities" by default. White employers are biased against all minorities by default. And you said in your previous post that "much of the hiring bias against minorities is due to behavioural traits that may be appropriate ~among their own subcultures~ but not in polite society."

Let's just put these two things together. "Most white employers are biased against minorities by default, but the minorities bring that bias on themselves through behaviour that is okay when they're among their own but not in a business setting/society in general/whatever." What are you saying here if not that minorities will face discrimination for acting too non-white (or non-male, or non-straight, or non-cis, or whatever)? Do you honestly believe that university-educated black people interviewing for accounting firm jobs or w/e show up in sagging jeans and talk like Lil' Jon?

Also it's mighty white of you to "encourage women to enter engineering and scientific fields," but...well. (Yes, I know it's tech-centric, but it talks about STEM fields generally too.)

I never suggested that any minority should "talk like white people."  All I said is that certain behaviors and personality traits are frequently associated with those who are successful in their careers.  Look at people who have done well in life, whether it is international giants like Narendra Modi (the prime minister of India) and Alassane Ouattara (the president of Cote d'Ivoire) or simply minorities who have been successful in everyday life (working in management, accounting, teaching, medicine/nursing, etc).  All of these people are successful because they know the importance of operating in a multicultural society, and avoid behaviors that insulate themselves along ethnic lines.  When an African American uses the n-word when speaking with other African Americans, or dresses in a manner found in mainstream rap videos, they are essentially making a choice to not participate in the mainstream, multicultural society (a conglomeration of European, Asian, Hispanic, and Black cultures).  Rather, they are making a choice to associate themselves with the image portrayed in the media.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is welcoming and pleasant to all people.  I'm not saying this is right, it's just the way of the world.  The likelihood that a minority working in accounting is going to get clients of any race, dressing in saggy jeans and using the n-word, is very slim at best.

The point a few of us were making earlier, and from what I gather what Euron was saying, is that many of these negative associations within the black community have been artificially introduced through the media.  It's a shame that these artificially introduced images have been embraced by much of the black community when it is predominantly white producers who are funding this.

There's a lot here I'm not going to address because I don't have the stamina right now to look at every screwed up thing you say and explain politely but in exacting detail why it's screwed up and then patiently wait for you to tell me how oh, I'm sorry, you misunderstood, what we really meant was ____ and do the whole thing over again.

Not going to address the thing about how a black person dressing like a rapper at any point or using the n-word at all ever is apparently making a choice not to participate in society as a whole, and how acting like a gangsta rapper is...what does "insulating themselves along ethnic lines" even mean here? Are you saying that behaving like an extra from a "mainstream rap video" is one of these behaviours? Are you trying to say that acting and dressing like Snoop Manticore with the cameras on or w/e = African-American Culture?

Not going to address how apparently the key to success is not acting too ethnic in our multicultural society (and one of your examples for this is....really? Narendra Modi?) as opposed to a mix of hard work, luck, privilege (which includes being privileged enough to get an education and be allowed into/learn how to navigate rich, white business and/or political settings!), and timing, 'cos I feel like talking about intersectionality would fly right over your head.

Not going to address how bizarrely specific it is for you to talk about "a minority" working in accounting and presenting like a gangsta rap stereotype.

Not going to...you get the idea.

Also, rereading the OP, Euron is...Euron is not making a lot of sense. He lists a bunch of super profane gangsta rappers from the 90s and talks about how they were positive (?????) but now literally all rap is about stacks of money, doing all the drugs and getting all the big booty bitches, but it's really mostly white record moguls' doing (you are aware the radio isn't the only place people get their music, right?), but it's really black people who should know better than to listen to music that "promotes negative stereotypes." Like, don't get me wrong, there are issues with the rap scene, but...."black people should know better than to listen to music that promotes stereotypes!" (meanwhile, white people don't have to critically examine everything they listen to because of course)

So why is mainstream rap music so popular? Is it because it gives kids the fantasy of being rich and famous or do people just don't care, due to that sick beat doe?

"That sick beat doe," really? This is...not the way to not sound like a closet racist. (There's more to say here about lack of opportunity and systemic discrimination affecting aspirations, but this is long enough already. lol.)

Also also from the first page:

I think this is part of a broader issue.  If we are ever going to become a post-racial society, where we judge people on the content of their character, we all need to move past this basal logic where something is only "ours" if it is of "our" ethnicity.  Like consortium says, white people have largely moved past this, but the black community still holds onto this.  I can certainly empathize with the historical biases the black community has faced, but continuing to hold onto this "otherness" is only dividing us all.

lmao between this and the thing about THE UNCOOL STIGMA OF BEING A WHITE MALE i can't take your opinions seriously anymore (see also: http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/5-things-white-people-cultural-appropriation/ )

[ningyou]

Oh, and mainstream American society is very much not multicultural except perhaps at the fringes. The fact that people listen to hip-hop and do yoga and eat Mexican food does not make it any less dominated by white Americans.

This, so much.

[Alixana]

Also, rereading the OP, Euron is...Euron is not making a lot of sense. He lists a bunch of super profane gangsta rappers from the 90s and talks about how they were positive (?????) but now literally all rap is about stacks of money, doing all the drugs and getting all the big booty bitches, but it's really mostly white record moguls' doing (you are aware the radio isn't the only place people get their music, right?), but it's really black people who should know better than to listen to music that "promotes negative stereotypes." Like, don't get me wrong, there are issues with the rap scene, but...."black people should know better than to listen to music that promotes stereotypes!" (meanwhile, white people don't have to critically examine everything they listen to because of course)

This made me re-read the OP. Let's take another look.

Though what really bothers me is the idea the people behind the scenes who own the record companies, are white. They are the ones controlling the music and the advertising. Though they are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on the fans.  After all they are the ones buying music, that promotes negative stereotypes. So why is mainstream rap music so popular? Is it because it gives kids the fantasy of being rich and famous or do people just don't care, due to that sick beat doe?

Wait, what was that? ZOOM AND ENHANCE!

Though they are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on the fans.

And let's just clear up those pronouns...

Though [white people] are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on [black people].

Yeah, I guess that about sums it up. And by "it" I mean US race relations over the last 300 years or so.

[TaintedAndDelish]

ningyou, I was not trying to single you out or anything, I was just sharing my thoughts on this subject.

It is safe to say the vast majority of employers (management positions and above) are not black (or minorities, for that matter).  This means that minorities face bias - and a well-documented one at that.  As a result, over the long-term, the goal is to create a society where management positions are equally represented by a variety of races.  This is also why we encourage more women to enter engineering and science fields.

I never suggested that any minority should "talk like white people."  All I said is that certain behaviors and personality traits are frequently associated with those who are successful in their careers.  Look at people who have done well in life, whether it is international giants like Narendra Modi (the prime minister of India) and Alassane Ouattara (the president of Cote d'Ivoire) or simply minorities who have been successful in everyday life (working in management, accounting, teaching, medicine/nursing, etc).  All of these people are successful because they know the importance of operating in a multicultural society, and avoid behaviors that insulate themselves along ethnic lines.  When an African American uses the n-word when speaking with other African Americans, or dresses in a manner found in mainstream rap videos, they are essentially making a choice to not participate in the mainstream, multicultural society (a conglomeration of European, Asian, Hispanic, and Black cultures).  Rather, they are making a choice to associate themselves with the image portrayed in the media.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is welcoming and pleasant to all people.  I'm not saying this is right, it's just the way of the world.  The likelihood that a minority working in accounting is going to get clients of any race, dressing in saggy jeans and using the n-word, is very slim at best.

The point a few of us were making earlier, and from what I gather what Euron was saying, is that many of these negative associations within the black community have been artificially introduced through the media.  It's a shame that these artificially introduced images have been embraced by much of the black community when it is predominantly white producers who are funding this.

Valthazar really nailed it here.

One of the lessons I've learned over the years, is that bonding with your employers does a lot more for your career than being the brightest or best at doing what you do. Those who fail to bond with those in power end up getting less in return.

*If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again.*

Those who fail to bond include people who behave in a way that's conducive to their work environment, but who fail to win the friendship and/or support of their employers.

This is not about the color of your skin or country of origin, this is about fitting in, bonding, and becoming someone whom your employer WANTS to hold on to, and WANTS to reward. Like it or not, this is one of the keys to success.

Those who alienate themselves by failing to bond miss out.

If you work for someone who wears their pants low, grabs their dick during conversation, and raps in your face, then doing the same may help you to fit in. If you try to pull that crap in corporate America, they will eventually get rid of you for something dumb - like browsing the Internet on company time, or leaving the workplace with a company owned pen or paper clip.

[Valthazar]

I apologize that I couldn't address each of your points.  I realize we share a difference in perspective.

lmao between this and the thing about THE UNCOOL STIGMA OF BEING A WHITE MALE i can't take your opinions seriously anymore (see also: http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/5-things-white-people-cultural-appropriation/ )

I would appreciate not being assumed to be a white male.  I was born in India and lived for several years in Europe before coming to the US around age 10.  I have experienced racism and discrimination first hand.  Since the topic of "black sounding" versus "white sounding" names was raised, perhaps I'll share a personal example.  I work in the field of education, which is drastically white dominated.  I have an "Indian sounding" name, which perhaps would be an advantage if I were working in the field of medicine or engineering ( :-) ), but sadly, it often works against me in my field.  I have been asked about my writing skills (likely due to my name), and I have been mistaken for an "international student" despite being an American citizen speaking fluent English with a regular American accent.  Heck, most places where I interviewed at didn't even have a single minority on their staff.

Biases do exist, I do not deny that at all.  But I only have one life, and I can choose to either dwell on "white privilege" or I can choose to be the best version of myself possible.  An equally qualified white guy may be able to make a great first impression to an employer despite wearing jeans and a polo shirt.  I probably wouldn't be able to pull that off due to bias.  I can either wallow in that prejudice, or I can accept that I face bias, and choose to dress and act very professionally.  In other words, the bias against me is not my fault, but I still retain a degree of control that can still put me on equal footing with others.

Do you honestly believe that university-educated black people interviewing for accounting firm jobs or w/e show up in sagging jeans and talk like Lil' Jon?

I work at a college, and you would be surprised how many students (regardless of race) behave during mock interviews.  As I described above, a black student (or any minority for that matter) needs to present himself far more professionally than a white candidate in order to have the same opportunities.  Many of our black students are from underprivileged backgrounds who are using student loans and federal grants to fund their entire education (which makes it all the more important for them to get jobs).  Many of them do come in a dress shirt and blazer, but frequently don't tighten their ties properly, or sag their pants at their hips, causing their shirt to stick out at the belt.  I can only cringe when they start the interview with, "What's up, bro?" or "What's up, man?"  I had one black student come in wearing a do-rag.  These are great kids, but they haven't received the right influences that will help them to become successful in professional life (which is their true goal).

But there is also a separate group of issues, which relate primarily to class rather than race, and I think you are conflating the two to some extent. You mentioned people wearing baggy jeans, but it's not as if only black people wear baggy jeans. Most people wear different clothes casually than they do at work, especially if they work in an office or similar environment. Most people speak differently at work and with their friends. If people don't have nice clothes to wear to work and have difficulty speaking and acting in a professional manner, it's not because they listen to too much rap. It's probably because they are poor and uneducated.

You're absolutely right, but you are speaking on a broader level, critiquing the role of race in America, and how it can be improved for the future.  I am speaking about minorities that live in America right now.  If I am speaking to an 18 or 19 year old black student, what can I do to help him or her have the successful career that he/she desires?  A major part of that is in shedding the negative imagery found in rap videos - because things are much harder to achieve as a minority.  That doesn't mean it's impossible, just requires more work.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Also, rereading the OP, Euron is...Euron is not making a lot of sense. He lists a bunch of super profane gangsta rappers from the 90s and talks about how they were positive (?????) but now literally all rap is about stacks of money, doing all the drugs and getting all the big booty bitches, but it's really mostly white record moguls' doing (you are aware the radio isn't the only place people get their music, right?), but it's really black people who should know better than to listen to music that "promotes negative stereotypes." Like, don't get me wrong, there are issues with the rap scene, but...."black people should know better than to listen to music that promotes stereotypes!" (meanwhile, white people don't have to critically examine everything they listen to because of course)

"That sick beat doe," really? This is...not the way to not sound like a closet racist. (There's more to say here about lack of opportunity and systemic discrimination affecting aspirations, but this is long enough already. lol.)

Also also from the first page:

lmao between this and the thing about THE UNCOOL STIGMA OF BEING A WHITE MALE i can't take your opinions seriously anymore (see also: http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/5-things-white-people-cultural-appropriation/ )

I'm saying mainstream rap is dominated, by the likes of 2 Chainz and Lil Wayne, that promote negative stereotypes. There are probably underground rapers, who go back to the days of old, rapping about black unity and positivity, like Public Enemy or A Tribe Called Quest. However, like I said earlier they're not heard of,  because white record label owners, don't think it will sell or just prefer keeping the status quo.

How is "That sick beat doe" racist?

So are you denying, that the media isn't portraying white men to be uncool and imbeciles?

I just think its funny that I was trying to point out of the racism in mainstream rap, only to be called a closeted racist.

This made me re-read the OP. Let's take another look.

Wait, what was that? ZOOM AND ENHANCE!

And let's just clear up those pronouns...

Yeah, I guess that about sums it up. And by "it" I mean US race relations over the last 300 years or so.

I was referring to the blame lies on the fans and rappers, who buy into black negativity.


Just a heads up everyone, I'm thinking of closing this thread in order to make the sequel thread, on how in America though forced segregation is over, we now choose to segregate ourselves.

[Oniya]

How is "That sick beat doe" racist?

It could be perceived as such (or at least as a slur), due to the fact that you were deliberately imitating a style of speech associated with a group with the intent of portraying something as negative.

[Euron Greyjoy]

It could be perceived as such (or at least as a slur), due to the fact that you were deliberately imitating a style of speech associated with a group with the intent of portraying something as negative.

Thanks for providing me your insight, Oniya. However, I use doe daily in my online vocabulary, and wasn't using it as a slur.

[Kythia]

Is it just me who did an advanced search just then?  I hope not.

[consortium11]

Is it just me who did an advanced search just then?  I hope not.

I'm still reeling from my failure of pop culture knowledge... I assumed "doe" was just a typo (most likely "dope" with the p dropped) rather than a real word in and of itself.

[Kythia]

I'm still reeling from my failure of pop culture knowledge... I assumed "doe" was just a typo (most likely "dope" with the p dropped) rather than a real word in and of itself.

You need to get down with the kids.  Be a bit more "hip" as us kids say. 

[Euron Greyjoy]

Doe = though

At least thats how my bro and I use it.

[Oniya]

See, personally, I'd taken the whole 'it's all about the beat' attitude as being primarily that of a carefree, perhaps even naive adolescent.  Calling something good 'sick' also seems to place the speaker on the younger and more urban side of things (I can't help but think of the song 'Bad').  This does not inherently define the speaker's race, although it does tend to sound like a certain socioeconomic class - sort of the same way that folks in the UK see certain phrasing as typically 'chav'.  Toss that into a discussion where the previously mentioned attitude is being criticized, and it can be misinterpreted quite easily.

I am also reminded of a verse from a group called 'Five Men Acoustical Band':

And the sign said 'Long haired, freaky people'
Need not apply.'
So I tucked my hair up under my hat
And I went in to ask him why.
He said 'You look like a fine, upstandin' young man,
I think you'll do.'
So I took off my hat and said 'Imagine that.
Huh. Me, workin' for you?'

[Euron Greyjoy]

Personally I'm a lyric man, but a lot of modern mainstream rap fans, focus on the beat instead. *Shrugs* It explains why the lyrics are so bad, when rappers can just rely, on having "dat sick beat doe". However, you got to remember the audience of most rap fans, they are mostly people who go to the club or party. Nothing starts a party like Favor Flav, rapping about how 911 takes their sweet time arriving in a predominately black area, when called.

[ningyou]

Ohhhhhhhh boy. Forget about this thread for a day, come back to a ~cornucopia~ of Bad Posts.

Valthazar really nailed it here.

One of the lessons I've learned over the years, is that bonding with your employers does a lot more for your career than being the brightest or best at doing what you do. Those who fail to bond with those in power end up getting less in return.

*If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again.*

Those who fail to bond include people who behave in a way that's conducive to their work environment, but who fail to win the friendship and/or support of their employers.

This is not about the color of your skin or country of origin, this is about fitting in, bonding, and becoming someone whom your employer WANTS to hold on to, and WANTS to reward. Like it or not, this is one of the keys to success.

Those who alienate themselves by failing to bond miss out.

If you work for someone who wears their pants low, grabs their dick during conversation, and raps in your face, then doing the same may help you to fit in. If you try to pull that crap in corporate America, they will eventually get rid of you for something dumb - like browsing the Internet on company time, or leaving the workplace with a company owned pen or paper clip.

Short answer

More constructive answer: holy shit, have you met any black people? Any at all? Have you met any black person in corporate america who sags their pants, grabs their crotch, and raps in people's faces? Have you even read about this happening outside of Free Republic fever dreams? Because I have this funny feeling that uh yeah no.

Like...yes, even if the awkward self-help book phrasing is kind of obnoxious, of course "bonding with your employers does a lot more for your career than being the brightest or best." (Though putting 100% of the blame for "failing to bond" on employees rather than employers - who are human beings with likes and dislikes and foibles and prejudices! - is kinda...victim-blamey isn't quite the word, but it's close enough!) But when you start talking about people failing to bond with their employer specifically because they're cosplaying as Lil' Jon in the office, you just sound kinda weird and dumb and racist.

Also corporate America isn't a monolith, but I sooooort of get this feeling like all your knowledge of it comes from teevee or Kindle smut, so yeah. And white people get in trouble or get fired for browsing the internet too! :v and lmao at the IF one of them coloured folks SOMEONE SAGS THEIR PANTS AND SWINGS THEIR JUNK AND RAPS IN CORPORATE AMERICA THEY'LL GET THEM SOMEHOW THEY MIGHT FIRE THEM FOR LEAVING THE BUILDING WITH A PAPERCLIP thing. Like, setting aside the small matter of of 'how could they tell with a generic pen or a freaking paperclip,' have you heard of at-will employment? In like half the US employers can just fire people for any reason (thanks, google!) unless the employment contract says they can only be fired for cause, and if an employer actually said they fired a can-only-be-fired-for-cause minority employee for leaving with a paperclip or pen it would be such a stupidly obvious pretext that there's no way they wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

Also oh my *god* saying "If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again" with asterisks and in bold font is incredibly obnoxious and condescending (and i'm sorry, but it doesn't make your post any less weird and dumb and wrong).

_{Also I DON'T MEAN TO JUDGE OR ANYTHING but I've noticed both in this thread and the Sarkeesian thread that you can tell who the garbage posters are going to be by looking at avatars, l o l}

[ningyou]

I would appreciate not being assumed to be a white male.  I was born in India and lived for several years in Europe before coming to the US around age 10.  I have experienced racism and discrimination first hand.  Since the topic of "black sounding" versus "white sounding" names was raised, perhaps I'll share a personal example.  I work in the field of education, which is drastically white dominated.  I have an "Indian sounding" name, which perhaps would be an advantage if I were working in the field of medicine or engineering ( :-) ), but sadly, it often works against me in my field.  I have been asked about my writing skills (likely due to my name), and I have been mistaken for an "international student" despite being an American citizen speaking fluent English with a regular American accent.  Heck, most places where I interviewed at didn't even have a single minority on their staff.

Biases do exist, I do not deny that at all.  But I only have one life, and I can choose to either dwell on "white privilege" or I can choose to be the best version of myself possible.  An equally qualified white guy may be able to make a great first impression to an employer despite wearing jeans and a polo shirt.  I probably wouldn't be able to pull that off due to bias.  I can either wallow in that prejudice, or I can accept that I face bias, and choose to dress and act very professionally.  In other words, the bias against me is not my fault, but I still retain a degree of control that can still put me on equal footing with others.

Ooookay. First off, I didn't "assume you to be a white male." I think that it is hilarious and asinine when men talk about how BEING A WHITE MALE JUST ISN'T COOL ANYMORE BECAUSE commercials/comedy characters/FEMINISM!!!1!/etc., and I said 'I cannot take your opinions seriously because you said this thing about white men before!' But i did not say YO LOOK AT THIS WHITE BOY UGH or anything.

That said, a nonwhite person genuinely bemoaning how BEING A WHITE MALE IS JUST NOT COOL ANYMORE and talking about how you can either dwell on white privilege or be the best you can be because really guise you have some control over the effects of white privilege seems like stockholm syndrome (and not the fun kind).

I work at a college, and you would be surprised how many students (regardless of race) behave during mock interviews.  As I described above, a black student (or any minority for that matter) needs to present himself far more professionally than a white candidate in order to have the same opportunities.  Many of our black students are from underprivileged backgrounds who are using student loans and federal grants to fund their entire education (which makes it all the more important for them to get jobs).  Many of them do come in a dress shirt and blazer, but frequently don't tighten their ties properly, or sag their pants at their hips, causing their shirt to stick out at the belt.  I can only cringe when they start the interview with, "What's up, bro?" or "What's up, man?"  I had one black student come in wearing a do-rag.

...So you've formed your opinion based on some black university students (not grown-ass adults, university students, and I assume all guys! _{please don't tell me your opinions on black women i know they're just going to be worse and i'm going to get depressed}) showing up for mock interviews in business dress but wearing their slacks at their hips (not actually sagging, just wearing them with a belt at their hips)? And because some of them greet you informally (again, in a *mock* interview), and because one student wore a do-rag (which is dumb, but making broad generalisations about ~black youth~ based on this is dumber)? 

These are great kids, but they haven't received the right influences that will help them to become successful in professional life (which is their true goal).

oh my god shut up you patronising idiot

also "great kids" lmao how old even are you

I'm saying mainstream rap is dominated, by the likes of 2 Chainz and Lil Wayne, that promote negative stereotypes. There are probably underground rapers, who go back to the days of old, rapping about black unity and positivity, like Public Enemy or A Tribe Called Quest. However, like I said earlier they're not heard of,  because white record label owners, don't think it will sell or just prefer keeping the status quo.

I think that it's more that you're so ignorant of rap outside of like...a quarter of the top 40? Maybe? that you haven't heard of them, and you're making assumptions based on super limited knowledge and stereotypes.

How is "That sick beat doe" racist?

You're asking if black people are too ignorant to care that they're embracing stereotypes and you end it by mimicking AAVE. Think about it.

So are you denying, that the media isn't portraying white men to be uncool and imbeciles?

I think it's the kind of inane BS men tend to focus on as proof of MISANDRY!!!1!1!!. Like, sure, some commercials or sitcoms portray some white men as ~lovable buffoons~, but who gives a shit when -- just looking at recent news -- when people talking about actual RL news in ~the media~ suggest that maybe Michael Brown deserved to die for possibly stealing some swisher sweets (even if the cop who murdered him didn't actually know this at the time), or that maybe Renisha Mcbride deserved to die for having car trouble and asking for help in the wrong (i.e. white) neighbourhood? And as for shows and things, lots of those portray women as nags and whores who bring awful things on themselves, black folk as illiterates and ~thugs~, hispanics as The Help, trans women as perverts/deceivers/rapists....I could go on, but the point is that i'm not denying that a very small part of the media portrays white men as ~imbeciles~. The point is that it is a drop in the bucket compared to how everyone else is represented in the media.

(Also I can't help thinking of the Steubenville rape coverage and the CNN reporter talking about how getting convicted of raping a young girl DERAILED TWO BOYS' PROMISING FUTURES OH GOSH IT'S SO AWFUL THOSE BOYS WATCHED THEIR LIVES FALL APART, but nope, i guess the media is just a hotbed of misandry.)

I just think its funny that I was trying to point out of the racism in mainstream rap, only to be called a closeted racist.

Just stop, dude.

Just a heads up everyone, I'm thinking of closing this thread in order to make the sequel thread, on how in America though forced segregation is over, we now choose to segregate ourselves.

Please don't make the sequel. This is a Bad Thread with a lot of Bad Posters and unthinking, reflexive racism. Let it die.

Also if you think de facto segregation is over or that segregated neighbourhoods are the product of ~choosing to segregate ourselves~ rather than a whole bunch of things including but not limited to white folk ~keeping the coloureds out~ by any means necessary for decades you've got another thing coming.

[Valthazar]

ningyou, we simply are discussing different perspectives, no need to call TaintedandDelish dumb or me an idiot.  The main reason I felt you assumed me to be white was because of this quote:

Also it's mighty white of you to "encourage women to enter engineering and scientific fields," but...well.

I think the primary difference between what we are saying is that you are speaking about blacks currently working in corporate America, while I am speaking about the enormous population of black Americans who are unable to work in corporate America (either due to bias, lack of education, lack of experience in multicultural society among whites, emulation of imagery shown in rap videos, etc.). 

It is important to realize that if anyone (black, white, or any race) is currently holding a job, then they have been deemed qualified for the position.  What is concerning is the much greater amounts of black youth who will be unable to even compete for these jobs due to the variety of factors discussed earlier.

[TaintedAndDelish]

Ohhhhhhhh boy. Forget about this thread for a day, come back to a ~cornucopia~ of Bad Posts.

Short answer

More constructive answer: holy shit, have you met any black people? Any at all? Have you met any black person in corporate america who sags their pants, grabs their crotch, and raps in people's faces? Have you even read about this happening outside of Free Republic fever dreams? Because I have this funny feeling that uh yeah no.

I know plenty of black people. As for folks who behave in a way that puts them at odds with their work environment, you see less of that in the work place and even less in higher level jobs. This is not about race, this is about fitting in. This applies not only to rapping out loud and grabbing your dick, but also dressing like an emo or metalhead, or wearing your sexual preferences or controversial religious beliefs on your sleeve. Those who fail to fit the part don't get very far.

Though putting 100% of the blame for "failing to bond" on employees rather than employers - who are human beings with likes and dislikes and foibles and prejudices! - is kinda...victim-blamey isn't quite the word, but it's close enough!)

I think you missed the point here. Yes, you can get a job and sustain it, and yes, at times people do get laid off. I'm saying that when you get along with those in power, you benefit from that personal alliance. If you fail to do this, you don't get the extra benefit. You are just another number. I'm not sure where this victim angle comes into play.

But when you start talking about people failing to bond with their employer specifically because they're cosplaying as Lil' Jon in the office, you just sound kinda weird and dumb and racist.

As stated before, if you act in a way that is in opposition to your environment and wittingly or unwittingly make yourself to be an outcast, you will end up getting treated as such. Blaming everyone else and declaring yourself a victim might make you feel better about it, but it does not address the problem.

Also corporate America isn't a monolith, but I sooooort of get this feeling like all your knowledge of it comes from teevee or Kindle smut, so yeah. And white people get in trouble or get fired for browsing the internet too!

No, my knowledge comes from over 20 years of personal experience. I started out with a half-assed alternative high school education having been kicked out of mainstream high school, and worked my way to where I am today. I couldn't afford college. I borrowed and purchased books and educated myself over time after pulling my head out of my ass and learning that acting like an outcast was working against me.

:v and lmao at the IF one of them coloured folks SOMEONE SAGS THEIR PANTS AND SWINGS THEIR JUNK AND RAPS IN CORPORATE AMERICA THEY'LL GET THEM SOMEHOW THEY MIGHT FIRE THEM FOR LEAVING THE BUILDING WITH A PAPERCLIP thing. Like, setting aside the small matter of of 'how could they tell with a generic pen or a freaking paperclip,' have you heard of at-will employment?

I've seen people get canned for small offences, and I've seen others get away with breaking lots of rules.  What I have not seen is people who fit in and who are well bonded with their employers getting fired or laid off over stupid stuff. 

In like half the US employers can just fire people for any reason (thanks, google!) unless the employment contract says they can only be fired for cause, and if an employer actually said they fired a can-only-be-fired-for-cause minority employee for leaving with a paperclip or pen it would be such a stupidly obvious pretext that there's no way they wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

This isn't about the technical reason for dismissal, it's more about benefiting from personal alliances. The bit about the paper clip was clearly an exaggeration.

Also oh my *god* saying "If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again" with asterisks and in bold font is incredibly obnoxious and condescending (and i'm sorry, but it doesn't make your post any less weird and dumb and wrong).

Maybe you should read that paragraph again.

_{Also I DON'T MEAN TO JUDGE OR ANYTHING but I've noticed both in this thread and the Sarkeesian thread that you can tell who the garbage posters are going to be by looking at avatars, l o l}

Would you agree with this statement if we replaced "posters" with "employees" and "avatar" with "personal image" ?

Let's translate that and see it if still holds true:

I DON'T MEAN TO JUDGE OR ANYTHING but I've noticed ... that you can tell who the garbage employees are going to be by looking at their personal image, l o l

[consortium11]

Ooookay. First off, I didn't "assume you to be a white male." I think that it is hilarious and asinine when men talk about how BEING A WHITE MALE JUST ISN'T COOL ANYMORE BECAUSE commercials/comedy characters/FEMINISM!!!1!/etc., and I said 'I cannot take your opinions seriously because you said this thing about white men before!' But i did not say YO LOOK AT THIS WHITE BOY UGH or anything.

No, but you did say (as Valthazar has already mentioned):

Also it's mighty white of you...

Now, that sat fairly awkwardly for me when looked at in conjunction with other things you've said...

_{And wrapped up in a bunch of assumptions and stereotypes about how black people and white people talk.}

So it's a case of either assuming Valthazar (who has always been open about his background and history) is white or making a bunch of assumptions about how white people talk, think and act and saying Valthazar is following them.

I actually hope you're not being truthful above and you did assume Valthazar is white. Because the other option is essentially accusing him of "acting white"... which is basically a variation of the choc-ice ("black on the outside, white on the inside") or banana ("yellow on the outside, white on the inside"... although generally used in a less pejorative sense) type slurs when someone from a minority is accused of "betraying" either their own or other minorities by being too "white" in their manner.

Or it could be neither of the two and actually the precise nature of your point got lost in a sea of passive-aggressive snark that might be welcomed or appreciated in other places but is somewhat of an awkward fit in a sub-forum that tends to concentrate on fairly precise language and (tone argument points notwithstanding) has a "Be polite, be civil, be respectful" rule.

[Blythe]

Time for a break.

The thread will be locked for now.