Concealed Carry

[adeleturner]

I'm taking my concealed carry class this weekend and my teacher-to-be emailed this little video to me (strong language):

Dash Cam: Canton PD "Notification" Arrest & Officer Goes Berserk / Threatens

Anyway, most states that allow concealed carry have laws requiring carriers to "promptly" identify themselves as such and let it be known that they are armed when approached by an officer.  Some people have been arrested for waiting 40 seconds before letting the officer know.

From what I understand, the officer was originally talking to the woman in the man's vehicle.  The man, who seems a little meek, kept waving his concealed carry license during the entire ordeal trying to catch the officer's attention.  Finally, when the officer addressed him, he identified himself.

What follows borders on threat of lethal force.

Anyway I didn't just start this thread to talk about this video but to talk about all issues surrounding concealed carry, and even other firearms issues: assault weapons bans, handgun bans, concealed carry on campus, federal registration, etc.

If you would like to discuss it, I'd be more than happy to, as I'm sure would any other firearm owners on this site.  So, maybe I should have titled this, "Ask a 'Gun Nut'."

[Erotisch]

Yes, I am a gun owner and I carry conceal.ed as well.

The video was constantly buffering for me. Very irritating. But I got the general idea. This is crazy. I'm glad he got suspended but he should have been fired. The language itself is reason for dismissal.

[Oniya]

(A tip on buffering - hit pause as soon as it starts doing that and go do something else while it finishes loading.  Then restart the video.)

I'm not a gun owner - I know my hand-eye coordination and distance vision would make firing a gun a Problem.  I'm not anti-gun either, though, and I like the fact that police have dash-cams to help with things like this.  That said, I think it would probably be a good idea for CCW courses to include role-play training on how to deal with the 'nice officer that just pulled you over.'  A meek 'waving the license around' is no substitute for 'Officer, I'm supposed to tell you that I have a concealed carry permit.  My gun is ____, and my hands are on the dashboard.'

[Martee]

'Officer, I'm supposed to tell you that I have a concealed carry permit.  My gun is ____, and my hands are on the dashboard.'

Save the part about the dashboard, that is nearly word-for-word what my husband was told to say when getting his carry permit, even if he didn't have a weapon on him. Letting law enforcement know you may potentially have a weapon on you- even if it is perfectly legal- is just part of being a responsible carrier.

Although, as has been mentioned already- that officer was way out of line.

[adeleturner]

Here in Texas, it is legal to carry in your vehicle even without a permit.  I've done so ever since I was working as a real estate agent.  The funny thing is--at least, it was this way until recently--you didn't have to let an officer know there was a gun in the car.  You only had to let them know you had one if you had a concealed carry permit.

Of course, it is always a good idea to let them know, regardless, and obviously the guy was not fulfilling his responsibility to notify the officer promptly, even if the officer was making things difficult.

I don't know if all CCW classes include a roleplay about being pulled over, but the one I am taking definitely does.  I already have practice, though.  I've been pulled over before, and I purposefully keep my weapon in a place separate from my insurance information.

A couple of times they asked to hold on to the weapon while they were speaking with me, but most of the time they just shrugged it off, told me not to open the glove box that it was in, and didn't give it a second thought beyond that.  Wow, I just realize how bad that sounds.  Yes, I get pulled over a lot.  Cops around here pull you over for small infractions and tend to let you go with a warning as soon as they see you are sober and aren't a student.  They really can't stand the students.

[Oniya]

I threw in the bit about the dashboard because I've seen far too many 'bad cop' or 'bad motorist' videos where a hand or hands isn't shown, and someone ends up kissing pavement.  The few times that my husband has been pulled over, he makes a point of keeping his hands visible at all times.  It only makes sense to me to announce where the gun is and that my hands are - at the very least - nowhere near it.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I have a permit and I carry when I'm driving.  I've been stopped by police a couple times and before they reach my door I have my license, registration, insurance ID and carry permit in my hand and my hands on the top of the steering wheel with the window already down.  The permit is the item on top when I hand the cards to the officer.

They always ask where it's at and I tell them in my lap.

We don't require notification in my state but I do it anyway. 

[Martee]

My father always said the scariest part of any traffic stop is that moment when he'd come up alongside the car and couldn't see the driver's hands.

Leaving your hands clearly visible to the approaching officer(s) makes for a much more relaxed traffic stop.

[Oniya]

Yup.  This is why Mr. Oniya's traffic stops have probably gone as smoothly as they have.  ;D

[Erotisch]

One thing that scares me is that if I get pulled over again, I will have to remember to mention I have a concealed carry card and a weapon in the vehicle. This was not a problem for me 2 years ago when I got my first speeding ticket. When the cop came to the window for my info, I was so nervous that I was shaking and could hardly get my wallet open to give him my license. When he asked for my registration, I handed him my insurance card. So I really don't know if I would remember to say something, despite having gone through the class. I'm almost never in trouble, so when I do get in trouble, it bothers me really badly.

Oniya, married to a man in uniform? Nice!  ;D

[Oniya]

No, no - my husband just knows how to make the nice policeman stay nice when he gets stopped.  :D  It's partly because I developed a minor addiction to court channels and see all the wrong ways people handle being stopped.

[Erotisch]

No, no - my husband just knows how to make the nice policeman stay nice when he gets stopped.  :D  It's partly because I developed a minor addiction to court channels and see all the wrong ways people handle being stopped.

Oh. Hahaha! That was a minor misread on my part.    :-X

____________________________

Adele, how long does it take for you to receive your card after you take the class where you are at? Here it takes about 3 weeks.

[RubySlippers]

I have a 12-gauge pump action shotgun for home defense, first just loading it with the classic loud sliding noise will cause a criminal to seriously think about breaking in (it worked once the man was breaking in heard that and ran for it). In Florida there is the stand your ground law, I'm disabled so am assumed to need extraordinary force over the attacker so once they are in my place - BAM!

On the street I wish Open Carry a secured legally sized knife and my father taught me how to use it but would prefer an open carry pistol, but I will not sit there a victim without putting up a fight. I feel all law-abiding citizens over the age of eighteen should be allowed a gun openly in a secure holster if they wish to in all public places. And second be trained to properly use it if they carry one.

The authorities should never fear a law-abiding citizen its the criminals that are the issue and they don't care about the laws.

[Oniya]

The problem is that the criminals don't wear signs to identify themselves.  Until they start doing that, cops have every right to worry when they approach any situation where there might be a gun - if only for the sake of coming home to their own families at the end of their shift.

[RubySlippers]

Yes but then I think about all the high profile crimes like Columbine where if every teacher had a gun and some others who were responsible adults they might have stopped the massacre early, who knows but I would feel better packing openly than not at all.

That said I can carry a knife openly and can use that, which might be better than requires training to use properly over a gun.

There are states with Open Carry without a permit in place anyone study what the crime rates by population are there in comparison to restrictive states?

[meikle]

I'm totally happy to live in a world where "just in case you have to kill a child" is not an acceptable reason for teachers to carry guns around.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

You won't find any conclusive evidence on the subject.  The National Research Council ruled that there is not enough evidence to rule on the matter of concealed weapons.  That being said I doubt there would be enough evidence to rule on open carry. 

[Beguile's Mistress]

The only person I trust with a gun is me.  Even if I know you personally I still have reservations.  I train twice a month in self defense and defensive weapons use. 

Always remember that when you carry a weapon it can be used on you as well.  A criminal is already in the mindset of taking action against you and is prepared to face a loaded weapon pointed at them.  I know what to do in theory if accosted and I've trained with police officer friends but the adrenelin punch of an actual confrontation is another thing entirely and I don't know how I'll react in that situation.

Unless you are trained properly to use a weapon you shouldn't be carrying one, concealed or otherwise.  Unless you are prepared to kill someone you should never pull your weapon on another human being.  Once you take a life you can't give it back.

[Callie Del Noire]

Don't quite get who the video is for defending. The guy with the permit should have been more assertive but the cop was more than a little abusive.

[Oniya]

I think the video was cautionary for both - the cop ended up getting suspended for excessive force, but the guy with the CCW wasn't doing himself any favors.

[Torch]

Always remember that when you carry a weapon it can be used on you as well. 

Exactly the reason why I will never allow a gun in my home.

[Silverfyre]

Allowing anyone over the age of eighteen to openly carry a weapon on them at any time in public is just inviting more trouble than it is worth.  Like Oniya said, criminals don't exactly identify themselves immediately.  And as an educator, I hardly think allowing teachers to carry firearms on campus is going to prevent more trouble than it would potentially cause.  The number of school shootings in the last ten years is not a valid reason to give more guns out to people who might a) be tempted to use them and thus creating more incidents or b) have them taken from them and used against them.  The sort of mentality that everyone should walk around armed is just frightening.  ~Shudders~

Anyways, I am a gun owner and I do possess a conceal and carry permit.  I do not carry most of the time but do have several firearms in my possession at home, loaded but kept out of sight.  I do not have children and the wife knows where they are at all times and while she does not care for them, she knows I have been trained professionally to use them (hunting classes, self defense classes, military training, Dad is an Army rangemaster...) and would never do so in a foolish manner. They are for home defense and the defense of my family, as well as going out to the range and enjoying firing off a few rounds. We have been broken into a few times and almost subject to a home invasion.  I vowed never to be defenseless again after that.

If you are properly trained and prepared to use the weapon, then there is nothing wrong with owning it.  Just do so responsibly and within the boundaries of the law.  And do so for a reason, in my opinion.  Don't just do it for the sake of carrying one.  Be prepared to take a life if you do carry one, since that is what guns are all about at the most basic level.

[adeleturner]

Always remember that when you carry a weapon it can be used on you as well.  A criminal is already in the mindset of taking action against you and is prepared to face a loaded weapon pointed at them.

*Some* (I imagine a tiny minority) of criminals are prepared to face a loaded weapon pointed at them.  My father has had to draw a weapon in self defense once, and I've had to draw a weapon in a home defense situation once.  In neither of those cases was the criminal prepared to face a loaded weapon pointed at them.

I understand the possibility, but I look at it this way: there is a small chance I'll ever face a situation where I have to draw a concealed weapon against a criminal.  Within that small chance is a smaller chance that the criminal will be undeterred by the presence of a firearm.  Within that small chance there is a smaller chance that the firearm somehow gives me no advantage in the situation.  Within that small chance there is a smaller chance that he will kill me with my own firearm, but would have let me live if I had not had a firearm.

No matter how unlikely it may be that I need to defend myself with a firearm (again) in my home or in the street, it is still a far more likely scenario than one in which I am safer without my firearm.

Once a month, I go out shooting with my .357.  Twice a week I practice handgun fundamentals with my .22.  I do draw and dry-fire (snap caps) exercises practically every day.  I'm a fairly good shot, at least at the ranges that a self-defense situation would most likely occur in.

I realize that shooting in a high-stress situation is very different, but my firearm is still a greater danger to someone that would threaten me than it is to myself.

[elone]

In Virginia, where I live, open carry law is in effect and I can say that I have never seen anyone carrying. I have been around firearms all my life, both for hunting and target shooting. Still, carrying a firearm would make me nervous.

In the military, I was a Military Police Investigator and was plainclothes. It was optional for us in my job as to carry a weapon or not. I chose not to except on rare occasions. I was always self conscious about carrying a gun under my coat in a shoulder holster. That probably sounds strange since I was a cop, I guess if I carried every day I would have gotten used to it. In uniform, I carried a .45 in a shoulder holster visibly. You were not allowed a .45 concealed. We had .38 for that.

I can understand the cop in the video having a fit, it is a dangerous world and walking up to a car at night is nerve racking because you never know what to expect. The problem was, he never gave the driver an opportunity to speak, and then had a meltdown.  He is obviously wired a bit to tight to be a law enforcement officer. Good thing they suspended him. I noticed his partner managed to keep his cool. Also, the guy in the car was obviously intimidated by the cop which didn't help the situation.

As far as getting stopped, ALWAYS keep your hands visible, either on the wheel or out the window resting on the door. Everyone will stay safer that way, and believe me, the officers will appreciate it, although I doubt they will say so.

[meikle]

It was pretty recently "discovered" that Wisconsin has been an Open Carry state all this time and apparently nobody was aware of it.  Having a gun in a car where you can reach it is considered concealed carry and isn't allowed, though, even if it's locked up.

This became a big deal a few years ago, when I was still going to school in Milwaukee.  We got an exciting speech from a police cadet about how 'even though it's legal, it's impossible to carry a gun without causing a disturbance so don't do it unless you want to go to jail.'

[Valerian]

I knew there was some sort of open carry law in Wisconsin, though since I have no desire to own a gun I never bothered to track down the specifics.  It's a moot point now, in any case, since as of eight days ago there's now a concealed carry law here -- part of Walker's "laser-like focus on job creation", apparently.  :P

He had added a clause about requiring a certificate proving that you had taken a four-hour course in gun safety before you could get a concealed carry permit, but dropped it like a hot rock once the bill actually took effect.  All you have to do is pass the general check about criminal records, etc., and say that yes, you know how to use a gun.

For comparison, going out to hunt deer with a rifle in Wisconsin requires a 10-hour long safety course.

[meikle]

Ours is not the finest state in the Union.

[Callie Del Noire]

I knew there was some sort of open carry law in Wisconsin, though since I have no desire to own a gun I never bothered to track down the specifics.  It's a moot point now, in any case, since as of eight days ago there's now a concealed carry law here -- part of Walker's "laser-like focus on job creation", apparently.  :P

He had added a clause about requiring a certificate proving that you had taken a four-hour course in gun safety before you could get a concealed carry permit, but dropped it like a hot rock once the bill actually took effect.  All you have to do is pass the general check about criminal records, etc., and say that yes, you know how to use a gun.

For comparison, going out to hunt deer with a rifle in Wisconsin requires a 10-hour long safety course.

You know.. once upon a time.. something like the disregard for 'responsible gun training' would have gotten the NRA involved. Too bad that was days ago.

[Type70item]

I am a former US army soldier, and have been trained in various methods of gun safety, aswell as when it is legally right to use lethal or nonlethal force with a firearm

I got my CWP 7 months ago because I began receiving death threats from a group of people and law enforcement said there was nothing they could do.

My opinion, if your profession puts you in situations where you could be attacked or robbed or are in some other form of danger in which the police are unable to offer you constant protection, yes i think its in your interest AND your right to carry a firearm, however I do feel that the classes for obtaining the permission to do so are far too lax, people are grabbing CWP's just to feel badass and tell all their friends they get to carry a gun

I think the issuing of CWP's should be restricted to those who can provide some type of valid reason to be armed on a daily basis

[Serephino]

Cops have a tough job.  I'm friends with one, and no, criminals don't wear signs on their foreheads.  A person doesn't have to have a criminal background to do something.  The first offense is the... first...  That, and peoples' brains tend to go out the window when they're panicking.

People have tried to run over stupid things like an expired license.  When he pulls someone over, or gets involved in a situation, he never knows what he's dealing with.  He could be pulling over someone with a concealed weapon and an arrest warrant.  That person could panic and try to avoid arrest by shooting him.

The cop in that video was a bit aggressive from what I watched, but they do have to be careful and stay alert.  Like Oniya said, keep your hands visible and don't make any sudden moves.  It may be natural to be nervous when getting pulled over, but they pick up on that and it makes them nervous too.  They don't know whether or not you have a good reason to be nervous, such as drugs in the car.  Over time they learn to tell, but they'll still watch you.   

[Shjade]

My father always said the scariest part of any traffic stop is that moment when he'd come up alongside the car and couldn't see the driver's hands.

Because my brain is weird, I immediately found myself thinking of the stress caused by a car's passenger being an amputee.

Walking up, can't see the passenger's hands...I CAN'T EVEN SEE HIS ARMS OH GOD WHAT IS GOING ON

Poor cop has a heart attack before he even gets to the car. D:

[Semantics]

I've always gotten nervous thinking about concealed carry laws, just because people can be insanely stupid and some of the requirements to get a license can hold the bar a bit low.  I suppose I don't have an issue with the idea itself, just with the execution.

On campus, though, would frighten me.  There are enough issues in the education system at all levels without adding guns to the mix.  Yes, it might prevent a Columbine.  Or it could just make it far worse.

As to assault weapon bans...  Taking the Second Amendment into that realm gets into the absurd, and reminds me of a Futurama episode.  "I don't go anywhere without my mutated anthrax...for duck hunting."

[Craz]

I come from a family that's rather anti-gun, but I've had experience with firearms and have taken a number of classes on the subject. From where I've lived in California, concealed carry is not something that works here. Most Californians are, in my opinion, too dumb to be trusted with carrying a firearm outside of a professional capacity. I'm personally not a fan of it, but I do see its uses.

On the note of any gun on class, if the person carrying isn't in uniform, that's just a horror it's something I don't want to even consider. That's just asking for all sorts of trouble that can't be accounted for.

[GardenoftheDead]

(A preliminary note: I'm a pretty liberal son of bitch, especially by American standards, despite what this statement might imply)

I personally think the Second Amendment is my concealed carry permit. The state says otherwise sadly.

But honestly, I don't see the point, even if I think I have that right. In most scenarios where a gun would come in handy, it would take too long to pull it out of the holster. As if I'm honestly gonna reach for a gun if I'm being mugged at gun point.