WH40000 - what's your opinion?

Started by Beorning, August 09, 2014, 03:58:53 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TheLaughingOne

... Crap. ok, yeah. thing i used to convert is bugged. 1 LY=6000+ AU, but if you go the other way, 1 AU comes out as 1.5 light years. And yeah... Another bone head on me. need to check the books again.. though now i gotta go to work.. so... yeah.

One thing i'll say, another issue with some suits of "ancient" armor now is they suffer the "my grandfathers sword" ... i think its called that. no idea.

But in short, you inherit your grandfathers sword, but the cross guard is broken,
so you replace it.
The pommel falls off and you replace that
Then you rewrap the hilt as it was coming apart
then the blade breaks and you get a new one.

At this point, was it actually your grandfathers sword? Older versions of armor at this point might only have a few things left in them that was from the original armor, and the replacement parts being more and more modern make and lacking in that technology. Even in games, items from before the heresy tend to be much better then more "modern" made ones and are highly sought out.
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheGlyphstone

#3101
The Armor of Theseus?

Actually, that could make for a cool Deathwatch relic. A suit of ancient power armor whose individual components have all been replaced at least once - but new additions seem to age prematurely until they match the rest of the suit, and it retains the full functionality of its original archaic design despite lacking any of the original parts.

TheLaughingOne

..... THAT is an awesome fucking idea. I love imperial relics like that. One game my guardsman found a relic heavy stubber "Jurtens chant" (name was suppose to be the military commander who was in charge of krieg). Sustained autofire caused the barrel to start glowing revealing an imperial chant/prayer scribed into the barrel, and would have increased damage, cause flame effect, and holy effect. Plus even more damage against traitors/heretics.

And a quick walk out past my door reminds me i cant check my books as i had to sell most of them to cover rent and such... :( barely even got half of what most sold for on ebay...

And back on subject, a big thing to remember is that the imperium is on a down swing with technology, what they have now doesnt match what they had a couple thousand years ago, and oft times the methods of making those items is almost completely lost.

And the problem is those older candiditates still underwent hypnoindoctrination, but they still had their old experiences, training, and knowledge. They were ready much sooner for combat as opposed to a kit implanted at 12, "developed" at 20, and not considered to be at a marines level until they were almost 150.

And one problem with hypnoindoct is it means they are very vulnerable to suggestion, they train it so they tend to be "stronger" in a group, can rely on each other to reinforce loyalty, hence why lone marines become corrupted much easier, but also means its possible for whole squads, companies, and even chapters to fall. Its awesome as it can train them so fast, but it is a big security backdoor....

And on armor, artificers armor! Finally found it. These are older suits of armor that are heavily customized (modified to better fit, scribed with past battle armors, and other decorations), but largely composed of Matching armor parts from older marks rather cobbled back together without the backup systems of older armor.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Artificer_Armour

Seriously, again love that theseus armor idea though!!
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: TheLaughingOne on January 12, 2019, 10:13:41 PM

And one problem with hypnoindoct is it means they are very vulnerable to suggestion, they train it so they tend to be "stronger" in a group, can rely on each other to reinforce loyalty, hence why lone marines become corrupted much easier, but also means its possible for whole squads, companies, and even chapters to fall. Its awesome as it can train them so fast, but it is a big security backdoor....


I've never heard that before, do you have any idea where you read that? Part of the hypnotic conditioning is specifically the loyalty and anti-corruptive mantras, and I've never seen anything that indicates Astartes are specifically designed to accept further suggestions of that sort after their training is concluded. Lone marines don't appear to be unusually vulnerable to corruption either - most tend to go down fighting before succumbing to corruption, since their conditioning and physiology make them highly resistant to mutation. It's not any more of a security backdoor than being conditioned to fanatically love and obey your Primarch/father figure, which proved to be a fairly substantial security flaw in the Heresy-era model.

Cold Heritage

I vaguely remember reading that susceptibility to hypnotherapy - you might have an aspirant who was in all respects quality but be discarded because they were not responsive enough to the hypnotherapy required to condition the mind to unlock the full potential of the organs that were to be implanted - is one of the criteria that aspirants are judged on, but nothing to suggest that Marines are particularly vulnerable to suggestion or that lone Marines are more susceptible to mind control than in a group.
Thank you, fellow Elliquiyan, and have a wonderful day.

TheLaughingOne

Its from one of the novels, imperial fist one, if you dont accept hypnotherapy easily as cold said, your out and made a serf. Ill try and find the book when i get home as it is a pretty good one.

And in all truth, hypnotherapy is largely a means of brainwashing.  A more... "gentle" and subtle means of, but nonethe less, its how they make marines so loyal, and why despite thst loyalty some fall. Its not designed in but a sought feature that they cant really undo short of something like the grey knights, where they pretty much mind wipe the subject down to bare bones and what not.

Ill admit this is partially my own tangent and thoughts, but...

They take people very accepting to hypnotic and other means of suggestion to fast train them, and indoctinate them to the chapter. Butnits not just an on and off switch, whenbtheybsre done they cant just turn it off, and continue to use it as means of fast briefings and giving them schematics and all that.

As they cant just turn it off, they reinforce loyalty by means of the brotherhood they have in chapter. Its like a cult, someone brainwashed by a cult is easier to "cure" alone then they are in a group... or this case, be brainwashed by ankther group, such as chaos marines.

I shoukd say i dont mean they are easy to just plain suggestion and such, but grouos such as chaos marines, daemons, and ithers know the way they are "programmed" and can use that to their advantage. Otherwise they are hard as nails dedicated and loyal, but the means of making them like thst is a carefully secreted issue.
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheGlyphstone

It's the last bit that just doesn't make sense, personally. I don't see why being able to accept hypotherapy makes you equally vulnerable to hostile reprogramming. If it was that simple to 'crack' their mental conditioning, they would be falling in droves to Chaos - any heretic with a truck and loudspeakers could broadcast a brainwashing chant and corrupt whole swathes of otherwise loyal Astartes. In general, I try to take fictional settings with an approach of assuming competence unless told otherwise, and to me the hypotherapy clearly can't be as flawed as you seem to perceive it as, otherwise it's just mass-producing recruits for the enemy.

Individuals or groups might succumb, but one of the most important parts of that conditioning is a built-in resistance to corruptive influence. It could be as easy as including a specific and extremely heavily kept-secret 'trigger' code that put them into a hypnotic state, letting the Chapters use hypo-therapy to bypass the metal defenses programmed into place against anything not preceded by that trigger. Admittedly that's entirely out of my own head, but it feels like a good counter-explanation as to how they can employ hypotherapy with any long-term success rate.

TheLaughingOne

Hypnotherapy isnt just some guy in a turban swinging a shiny pocket watch in your face saying "you are getting sleepy".

Its massive amounts of psychotropic drugs, halluciongens, and other chemicals, sleep deprivation, intense pain, a diet lacking in carbs to power the brain, and being hooked up to machines that let you feel, physically and mentally, what has been recorded from past subjects. Yoy cant just have an ice cream truck driving through town going "join chaos!!" There are no secret triggers in marines to suddenly make them start stapling faces to their butts and add spikes to everything. It is a long intensive process. It is literal brainwashing, just more effective then it is in real life, and some fanciful tech thrown in, and a nice clean name.

And on top that, do you really think chaos marines are going to share the secret of how to use this against marines, this includes them, with sone little pissant cultist? Or anybody thst isnt a marine? Itnput them at risk as well.

And its not some universal proceedure thsts the same for every chapter, they each have their own variations that makenit haeder to crack. Its not a 100 percent success rate, but its an actual thing. Otherwise why would any marine fall at all if they are programmed to be loyal? And if someone is suceptible to hypnotherapy, its a very part of them that could only be cured by pretty much wiping their brain clean and rewiring it likenthey dobwith grey knights.

Its not the jedi situation of:
<jedi john> i must fight the sith!!
<sally sith> but you are a sith!!
And then john was a sith.
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheGlyphstone

That works, but the exact same procedure would work on people who aren't already hypno-programmed, with the bonus benefit of not needing to break down their pre-existing conditioning before you can input your own. I'm not arguing that marines are corruption-proof by any means, simply disputing the hypothesis that the same routes used to make them Marines in the first place leave them unusually vulnerable to corruption.

TheLaughingOne

Yeah. And we see it with the imperial creed, chaos cults, people who turn to chaos after seeing daemons or studying forbidden knowledge, or convert to xenos causes like the taus greater good. Its not as effective as the marines, but that vulnerability is still there.

And it doesnt make them "unusually vulnerable" it just mskes them vulnerable when strapped down, tortured, and having the very method used to program them used to reprogram them. They still fall to chaos through other means, bloodlust, pride and so forth, but this is the method of how chaos marines "convert" loyalists they have caught.
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheGlyphstone

I'm lost now. This whole tangent started because of the suggestion (heh) that the hypnotherapy used to train Astartes was a 'security backdoor' that traitors and demons could take advantage of. If it's just one tool out of many potential options, that's not really a flaw in the design unless it is an easier/better way than the alternatives.

TheLaughingOne

Its better depending on the situation, if youve captured a marine its an easier method then just trying to convince him, pute torture, or other means of corruption. But out on the field or other means? Then there are better options. Its like any tool, there are situtions where it works well, others where it doesnt at all.
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheLaughingOne

... reading back, i think a big issue with this is my phrasing in things i said. Made it out as being easier then it is. Sorry bout that, was half awake and getting ready for work so wasnt fulky functional brain :T my bad...
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

ppr128sol

Quote from: TheLaughingOne on January 13, 2019, 12:33:58 AM
Its better depending on the situation, if youve captured a marine its an easier method then just trying to convince him, pute torture, or other means of corruption. But out on the field or other means? Then there are better options. Its like any tool, there are situtions where it works well, others where it doesnt at all.

Loyalist Marines tend not to fall very often any way. One of the bigger examples I can think of recently was the Soul Drinkers, and even they went awry due to gene-seed predelictions rather than anything else. Blood Angel successors are in the same boat, but that may well be more due to the Chaos ritual that was begun in the Heresy to bind them to Khorne and/or Black Rage reinforcing it than anything else too.

Mentally, Marines are all but unbreakable. If it was as easy as using hypnotherapy rites, Asmodai would have a lot more than two black pearls.
Well. Through the crucible for the moment. Let's see where this goes?

TheGlyphstone

I would have thought of the Astral Claws before the Soul Drinkers. The latter were Renegades but not really chaos-worshippers as a whole; the former became the Red Corsairs and are still a major thorn in the Imperium's side.

ppr128sol

The Soul Drinkers had a novel series, though. Astral Claws... I think only fluff entries in setting material?
Well. Through the crucible for the moment. Let's see where this goes?

TheLaughingOne

#3116
Ya know what.

Nevermind. Dont care any more. Done.
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

Cold Heritage

Quote from: ppr128sol on January 14, 2019, 03:02:11 AM
Astral Claws... I think only fluff entries in setting material?

The Badab War had a bunch of White Dwarf articles and at least one Imperial Armoury book devoted to it.
Thank you, fellow Elliquiyan, and have a wonderful day.

TheLaughingOne

So, watching the astartes vids cause THEY ARE AWESOME!!! but saw advertise for...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIZjCJMaR1M

in the corner. some dude "analysing" the videos with "arch warhammer" i had no idea who they were, though they claim to be experts... and watching it..? Wow.

I had thought of making it like, a drinking game after first couple minutes, one each time they get something wrong... but quickly realized that even if it was molsons, the end amount would be enough to give a space wolf alcohol poisoning..
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

Azuresun

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on January 13, 2019, 08:56:12 PM
I would have thought of the Astral Claws before the Soul Drinkers. The latter were Renegades but not really chaos-worshippers as a whole; the former became the Red Corsairs and are still a major thorn in the Imperium's side.

The Red Corsairs got an army list in the 2e Chaos codex, and it noted that renegade marines from other chapters tended to find their way into their ranks.

(I came into 40K in the 2e era, and it really was a golden age. That was when the setting really became its own thing, and every new codex hugely expanded the universe.)

CopperLily

Quote from: TheLaughingOne on January 23, 2019, 02:38:46 PM
So, watching the astartes vids cause THEY ARE AWESOME!!! but saw advertise for...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIZjCJMaR1M

in the corner. some dude "analysing" the videos with "arch warhammer" i had no idea who they were, though they claim to be experts... and watching it..? Wow.

I had thought of making it like, a drinking game after first couple minutes, one each time they get something wrong... but quickly realized that even if it was molsons, the end amount would be enough to give a space wolf alcohol poisoning..

"Arch Warhammer" is a big figure in the 40K YouTube community.

He is an asshole, who hangs out with other assholes, including Sargon of Akkad (whose on that video) and Richard "Definitely a Nazi" Spencer.

TheLaughingOne

Yeah.. quick look up after posting that showed me what a grot molesting ass clown the dude is..

Also kinda amusing to see how many of the youtube 40k "experts" just read straight from the wikis.

It was kind of fun to watch them mke the worst sort of guesses and leaps in conjecture "oh look! This guy has a bangle of the aquila and what looks like an I with a circle and the skull! They must work for the inquisition! Said icons of the officio medicea, doesnt have the 3 bars of inquisition.

Said icon


Mmmaaayyybbbeee the icon of imperial cult... but doesntnhave the spikes around the circle part.

Not even noticing the guys getting blasted up are imperial navy, and even have the icon on their suits.. or part. Just the weird square thing but no big I.

It was also funny watching them take whats shown and try to fit it to their failed guesses.
"Oh look! A thunderbolt. This proves they are working for inquisition as no way would marines trust the guard to support them!"

... so many things wrong with statement...

Admitedly, i got rather nit picky... but considering these guys make claims as experts... well your just asking for it then!
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheLaughingOne

So.. for next big group game, getting ready to throw people a curveball.. new 1500 point army for fun.

First step is imperial guard, volstroyians
Company commander with laspistol & chainsword, kurov aquila relic.
Tank commander with punisher tank, pintle stubber, lascannon hull, and multimelta sponsons, and track guard (keep that movement high to take advantage of grinding advance)

Troops have 2 squads of guard infantry,
Serg with boltgun and chainsword,
7 troops,
And heavy weapons packing heavy bolters.

And group of tempestus scions
Tempsetor with hot pistol and chain sword,
4 troops,
And 2 special weapons with hot volley guns.

And guard finish with heavy weapon squad. Pack of 3 guys with lascannons.

And.. then the surprise.

Imperial knight paladin with rapid fire battle cannon & heavy stubber, thunderfist gauntlet, stormspear missiles, and shoulder stubber. Heirloom is judgement upgrade to stoemspear (longer range, better ap, and reroll misses) and warlord trait of iron bulwark (4+ invuln against ranged)

Then an armiger helverine for fire support, and pair of warglaives to rush in and harass troops.

Plans are lighter guard in front, infantry and scion (might swap sions for more infantry), to act as shield and menace enemies with heavy weapons.
Heavy gunners hang back using lascannons to ping harder targets and keep focus on them.
Warglaives & tank commander will charge forward and blitzkrieg enemy forces to cause chaos in melee and with thermal spears on vehicles,
Helverine plays fire support for light infantry,
And knight will hang back field as artillery with rfbc and missiles, once enemies get closer engaging tanks with gauntlet, simply in hopes of getting to throw one.

Hows thst sound to you guys..?
My Ons and Offs!

You! On our wavelength! Carry our message, its heavy! Made of rocks!! Apocolypso dancing! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! You'll want to cut your wrists with the whole knife, but you'll only need the edge!

TheGlyphstone


Fierbali111

"Commander titus, what is the status of the titan" i mean they really need to get more creative with names sometimes. I haven't read any novels but have read the army book lores and it gets kinda old hearing that every sides sole function is to kill everyone else. Seems one dimensional on that level. Models look pretty cool though.