Debating a New Game

[Jefepato]

In some cult movies they even do magic if she had an occult background and practiced alot- well the Tremere learned their art using their Vampiric blood there is no reason minor skills couldn't be formed with a good background.

You definitely can't learn Thaumaturgy without a teacher (even Tremere need someone to teach them, to raise Thaumaturgy in any way, and besides they try to exterminate anyone else they catch knowing it), but all the others are certainly possible.

[Rin]

Oh, and now that I've completely lost track of this thread . . . how many takers are there for the WoD game, with system intact?  How many for the WoD without system?

And finally, how many for troupe-style, how many for "sandbox" style?

Me, and for system.

Troupe style or sandbox style would be good, though I expect Troupe would work better

[ZK]

The physical Disciplines (both in oWoD and nWoD) require no actual teacher. For a Caitiff to have a Clan Discipline as a starting discipline, the Caitiff in question would have to have a Mentor of said clan with abilility.

As for Thaumaturgy, it's lost to all but the Tremere and a few other distinct Bloodlines of Independent Clans and what is left of the Manus Nigrum. The only way a Caitiff could learn it is if they were really, really trusted by a Tremere of the Camarilla or taught by one of the Tremere antitribu (not the extinct Sabbat Bloodline that had Morpheus, but the Anarchs).

Dark Thuamaturgy is taught by the Earthbound (aka ancient Demons) and brings more penalties in using then a Diablerist has when trying to survive amongst the ranks of the Camarilla. As well, it's also generally fround upon by the Sabbat.

[ZK]

The book of Outcasts: Players Guide to the Pariahs is a Second Edition material and as well, it was disbanned and concidered "voided". The more recent book on the Caitiff and their Thin Blooded relatives are that of "Time of Thin Blood".

[Natalie C. Barney]

That would be up to the Storyteller and I would learn ones she saw fictional vampires use, like Animalism she would not know all about it but could get the first dot easily enough the rest would be a surprise. I'm no expert but aren't many options up to sheer survival? Take a simple one Presence all vampires have a hunting instinct and attractive food would be one. Why would she need a teacher for that one. Or Dominate. Or even Obfuscate I could see her chased by some hunter hiding in the shadows and wishing they couldn't see her and bammo Level 1 Obfuscate.

And who says it was voided isn't that up to the person running the game- if he wants to limit some disciplines that's fine but ones that would be survival tools are likely to be developed I say why? And what are clan diciplines really those unique to a clan several many vampires have so its likely even if she had no Mentor she could have several. Presence is know to several clans and even Obfuscate could be instinctive developed as a last ditch adaption. Even Vicissitude is a disease if her maker had it she could.

But I leave this to the Storyteller not you. He can use whatever sources he wants.

[ZK]

It's voided because the Time of Thin Blood rules balance the previous one out. Caitiff still have it easier when coming up with new Discplines, just, they changed the system.

[Natalie C. Barney]

I have an idea for a BUFFY-inspired dicipline called VAMP OUT. I got the idea off a website but think its too powerful there so am looking to tone it down. Would fill in the whole everyone knows Vampires can kick butte concept and she saw one too many Vampire movies. I figure 7 fp for one dot in that if the Storyteller is ok with it.

For the starting Diciplines I likely will take more common ones like Presence or ones she might have learned for self defense or survival. Where the first dot make sense like Obfuscate.

Again its up to the Storyteller, many GM's use earlier material its up to him what he allows or not. He can use anything her wants he's the GM! He has the power- all hail the GM!  :D

[Jefepato]

I think the default three Disciplines for Caitiff are Potence, Fortitude, and Presence, but it varies (somewhat) with the individual...

Do you really want to be like a Buffy vampire?  They die when you poke them with a pencil.

[Elvi]

*cough*
Depends how old the vampires are in buffy, certain ones deffinately needed more than pencils, I think a ruler, set square and eraser were needed as well.

[Natalie C. Barney]

I hate to point out to the rules they have no CLAN disciplines they can take ANY. Of course heavy CLAN ones are usually off limits as in ones ONLY a specific clan gets. Like SERPENTIS or NECROMANCY or PROTEAN- if you force disciplines then why take a Caitiff might as well be a Pander in the Sabbat? Sensibly the Fortitude one is most likely and Presence (maybe Dominate) as that helps in hunting. But I could see others- stealthy ones like Obuscate or one like Viscissitude (if its still a disease based Discipline). My view is a Kindred with no Sire around and left to her won devices would either develop ones partially based on survival and partly what they KNOW about vampires. Movies and shows would give them all sorts of ideas. Caitiff that survive are usually the strong-willed ones is it such a stretch they could adapt by learning some odd power. Although I might take Mentor so would have a friend for my character- could be maybe a Gangrel or some odd clan or even an older Caitiff.

Most I've played with try to learn as MANY disciplines as they can.

Although I'm not arguing here just pointing out that they are not supposed to be locked into certain disciplines that's one of their few advantages. And being able to create new disciplines of course having an easier time of it.

[Jefepato]

if you force disciplines then why take a Caitiff might as well be a Pander in the Sabbat?

I never said they were forced, those are just the ones Caitiff usually develop first.

And Panders are exactly the same thing as Caitiff, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

[Natalie C. Barney]

Actually Panders are not in the Sabbat they have the same disciplines and it so happens all the combat ones they are the Sabbat cannon fodder, and have fixed disciplines. They are no longer truly Caitiff then but almost a new fixed bloodline. Its true outside Caitiff are adopted in but ones made in packs are locked in certain Disciplines. And in most (ok ALL wars are the front line to the fray not a good thing).

But for my Caitiff I was thinking Dominate (aids in hunting and in self-defense- plus most vampires in movies seem to have something along these lines like the old Dracula with Bela), Fortitude (got to take the most likely one and again vampires can take damage everyone knows that) and Obfuscate (hiding is a good thing). Likely will make her Mentor a Nosferatu-Caitiff thats been around the block a bit.

[Jefepato]

Um...are you reading the same Guide to the Sabbat I am?  It says clearly that the Panders have no fixed Disciplines, and are for all practical purposes Caitiff.  Did a later book change this somehow?

[Natalie C. Barney]

Well it used to be that way? Oh well it doesn't matter really.

[Vandren]

You definitely can't learn Thaumaturgy without a teacher (even Tremere need someone to teach them, to raise Thaumaturgy in any way, and besides they try to exterminate anyone else they catch knowing it), but all the others are certainly possible.

This would/will be a GM call.  Which will be made on a case by case basis as necessary.

The physical Disciplines (both in oWoD and nWoD) require no actual teacher. For a Caitiff to have a Clan Discipline as a starting discipline, the Caitiff in question would have to have a Mentor of said clan with abilility.

As for Thaumaturgy, it's lost to all but the Tremere and a few other distinct Bloodlines of Independent Clans and what is left of the Manus Nigrum.

Again, GM call.  Caitiff, according to my copy of the main book can start with any set of three Disciplines approved by the GM.  As for Thaumaturgy, long story.  Suffice to say that any world plot stuff White-Wolf did post 1998 can be ignored.

The book of Outcasts: Players Guide to the Pariahs is a Second Edition material and as well, it was disbanned and concidered "voided". The more recent book on the Caitiff and their Thin Blooded relatives are that of "Time of Thin Blood".

Given that I own Outcasts and do not own Time of Thin Blood (see above response), this statement is null and void for any WoD game I run.

It's voided because the Time of Thin Blood rules balance the previous one out. Caitiff still have it easier when coming up with new Discplines, just, they changed the system.

See above two responses.

I think the default three Disciplines for Caitiff are Potence, Fortitude, and Presence, but it varies (somewhat) with the individual...

Caitiff choose three Disciplines, of the player/character's choice, which become "clan" ones for the individual.  The only limits placed on the choice are the individual GM's.  In part, this is because any Kindred can be a Caitiff, if (s)he doesn't know anything about his/her sire.

Panders are not in the Sabbat they have the same disciplines

Nope.  Panders and Caitiff are identical.  THey're just organized under the Sabbat, versus being unorganized under the Camarilla.

are you reading the same Guide to the Sabbat I am?  It says clearly that the Panders have no fixed Disciplines, and are for all practical purposes Caitiff.  Did a later book change this somehow?

Nope, there's been no change, at least to the best of my knowledge.  And given that the book is no out of print, I doubt it'll be changing.  :)
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Anyway.  I'll put in the request for a board by the end of the weekend, once I polish a few more little things (around school work and housework).

[Vandren]

I was going to wait on this until the game's up, but just to forstall further bickering . . . the list of books I have in my possession (and plan to use, though I'm open to use of ones I don't have, if I am provided with the section you plan/wish to use).  Unless otherwise noted, I think everything I have is 1st printing, probably mostly 2nd ed with some Revised - I have no problem with the Revised ed. rules, but the Revised ed. storyline is thrown out the window.

Mage
Book of Chantries, The
Book of Shadows, The
Mage: the Ascension (1st ed., I think)
Traditions Gathered 3: Swords of Faith (Akashic, Celestial Chorus, and Euthanatos Tradition Books)

Mummy
Mummy, 2nd ed.

Vampire
Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy
Chicago by Night
Clanbook: Assamite
Clanbook: Brujah
Clanbook: Gangrel
Clanbook: Nosferatu
Clanbook: Ravnos
Clanbook: Setite
Clanbook: Tremere
Clanbook: Ventrue
Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand
Ghouls: Fatal Addiction
Hunters Hunted, The
Players Guide to the Sabbat
Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat
Storytellers Handbook, The
V:tM Players Guide 2nd ed.
Vampire: the Masguerade (Revised)
War of Ages (Anarch's Cookbook + Elysium)

Werewolf
Book of the Weaver
Book of the Wyrm
Gurahl
Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes
Mokolé
Nagah
Players Guide to the Changing Breeds
Ratkin
Rite of Passage
Tribebook: Black Furies
Tribebook: Bone Gnawers
Tribebook: Fianna
Tribebook: Get of Fenris
Tribebook: Glasswalkers
Tribebook: Shadowlords
Tribebook: Silver Fangs
W:tA Player's Guide 2nd ed.
Werewolf: the Apocalypse

General
World of Darkness: Outcasts

[Anathanasia]

Oh, goodie, a list of books!  :)

I was somewhat hoping to see clanbook lasombra in there, but I can't remember if there's even anything in there I'd want to use for my character. It's also too bad you don't have the 3rd ed Vampire, I just really liked some of the tweaks and clarifications (especially to disciplines) in that one. I only ever got the 3rd ed core and players myself, but I thought they were good. It's okay, I still have my earlier printings of the core rules; one good thing about being a pack-rat. Damn my mother for sharing the tendency to not throw things away with me.  :P

Another question to the storyteller, I take it Sabbat vampires can take Paths instead of Humanity? I would just like to be sure...

[Muse]

Hm..  first edition Kumiko, and without even mertis and flaws from the book fo shadows?  This'll be difrent. 

[Creeper]

I don't have first edition, or even second edition, so I don't know what changes I'd have to make. I guess I'm out.

[Anathanasia]

Creeper: not sure what game you're talking about, but the differences are all pretty small. Tweaks. Excepting the brand new books, anyway, they are pretty different. Either way, I'd be willing to help you with a character, once we actually have the character creation rules according to our storyteller.

[Vandren]

I was somewhat hoping to see clanbook lasombra in there, but I can't remember if there's even anything in there I'd want to use for my character.

If there's anything you'd like from any books not on the list, include a description (or at least system description) with character apps.  I'm happy to review such info.  :)

Another question to the storyteller, I take it Sabbat vampires can take Paths instead of Humanity? I would just like to be sure...

Yeppers.  :)

Hm..  first edition Kumiko, and without even mertis and flaws from the book fo shadows?  This'll be difrent.

Take another look.  Book of Shadows is on there.  :)

I don't have first edition, or even second edition, so I don't know what changes I'd have to make. I guess I'm out.

I've been using these books in games for the last 10 years with no problems, so the edition differences are too minor for it to matter, IMO.  :)
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Added Note

Since the majority seem to prefer troupe-style play . . . I think I'll limit characters to starting level, Camarilla, Sabbat, Independant, non-Wyrm Changing Breeds (inc. Ronin), and Tradition/Hollow One Mages.

[Natalie C. Barney]

I'm not sure about mixing groups Camarilla and Sabbat in Europe have a truce going so its possible but they do not share cities. Mages are another case they often have weird allies and all.

As for my character I'm not sure if their will be lots of fighting or not- that will affect my character choice.  ???

[Vandren]

I'm not sure about mixing groups Camarilla and Sabbat in Europe have a truce going so its possible but they do not share cities. Mages are another case they often have weird allies and all.

There are several contested cities in the U.S.  Europe doesn't really matter for this game, seeing as it's set in the Virginia-Pennsylvania area.  Also, there are reasons, based on the plot I have in mind.  :)

As for my character I'm not sure if their will be lots of fighting or not- that will affect my character choice.  ???

I'd imagine a fair bit of detection, sleuthing, a bit of politicking, probably a little fighting, and several other things.  But, the exact proportions depend on the characters involved.

[Rin]

How'll you run Paradox? I've played with a lot of GMs, who've run it differently. Everything from "It always knows what you're doing and NO spell is coincidental' to ''dox only if it's really blatant, and even then, the 'dox on slaps you around a bit'.

[Vandren]

How'll you run Paradox? I've played with a lot of GMs, who've run it differently. Everything from "It always knows what you're doing and NO spell is coincidental' to ''dox only if it's really blatant, and even then, the 'dox on slaps you around a bit'.

Excellent question . . .

Judging by the flowchart in my copy of M:tA, here's what I see:

Vulgar Magick with Witnesses = automatic 1 Paradox + 2 Paradox/die rolled if it's a Botch
Vulgar Magick w/o Witnesses = automatic 1 Paradox + 1 Paradox/die rolled if it's a Botch
Coincidental Magick = no automatic Paradox, but 1 Paradox/roll of 1 in the Botch

The two Vulgar attempts also call for a Paradox Backlash roll.  (Each ST success removes 1 Paradox from the pool, but nasty stuff happens.  ;))