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OH NO!!! Venezula. . .

Started by ShrowdedPoet, September 12, 2008, 12:30:01 PM

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ShrowdedPoet

Kiss the hand that beats you.
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Sabby

Of course, someone will make this out to be the work of Mercenaries 2

Avi

Your reality doesn't apply to me...

ShrowdedPoet

Kiss the hand that beats you.
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Avi

I seriously doubt it will come to anything military but... yeah, it's worrisome.  :-\
Your reality doesn't apply to me...

Sherona

wow...videogame?

Anywho, I saw this coming unfortunatley. Ambassadors are either helped or hindered by world opinion, and right now they are decidedly hindered..very much so....couple that with tense political situations in Venzuala, well..it was almost inevitable *sighs*

It is certainly something to keep a serious eye on.

ShrowdedPoet

Quote from: Sherona on September 12, 2008, 01:18:02 PM
wow...videogame?

Anywho, I saw this coming unfortunatley. Ambassadors are either helped or hindered by world opinion, and right now they are decidedly hindered..very much so....couple that with tense political situations in Venzuala, well..it was almost inevitable *sighs*

It is certainly something to keep a serious eye on.

I'm worried about the gas prices. . .they've already gone up over 30 cents since this morning and are estimated to go up even higher and it doesn't help that we're closing refineries for the Hurricanes. . .*cries*
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Avi

Amazing how fate just clumps stuff like this together, huh?  One can only hope that a resolution is on its way.
Your reality doesn't apply to me...

ShrowdedPoet

Quote from: aviationrox on September 12, 2008, 01:20:36 PM
Amazing how fate just clumps stuff like this together, huh?  One can only hope that a resolution is on its way.

Yes, one can only hope though it looks VERY not good for gas prices for a long time coming. 
Kiss the hand that beats you.
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Celestial Goblin

Chavez is a drama queen that can't stand a week without international media attention.
If Venezuela won't sell oil to USA, is there anyone else who'll offer a good price?

ShrowdedPoet

Quote from: Celestial Goblin on September 12, 2008, 02:28:31 PM
Chavez is a drama queen that can't stand a week without international media attention.
If Venezuela won't sell oil to USA, is there anyone else who'll offer a good price?

I really have no idea. . .never been much for foreign relations. . .but I can't handle the high gas prices!  *cries*
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
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OldSchoolGamer

Quote from: Celestial Goblin on September 12, 2008, 02:28:31 PM
Chavez is a drama queen that can't stand a week without international media attention.
If Venezuela won't sell oil to USA, is there anyone else who'll offer a good price?

He's not going to embargo oil.  He wants to get paid.  And I agree with the "drama queen" assessment.  I'm sick of the rest of the world whining about how America is responsible for all their problems, and Chavez is one of the more grating "professional victims."  His country has plenty of oil revenues, so if things aren't shipshape at home Chavez just needs to man up and take some responsibility for how his country is doing.

Trieste

Chavez has made the unfortunate mistake of assuming that the United States cannot touch him, and thinks him too important to ignore and/or retaliate against. Considering our track record, though, I have to point this out.

We put Saddam in power, only to have to go back in and take care of that later on.

We put Castro in power, and look how that turned out.

Makes me wonder if we supported Chavez in the latest revolution or whatever that put him there. It would suit our track record. We have a habit of placing people who hate us in power.

I have no sources for this, by the by - it's hearsay, and I'm open to being wrong. It's just an idle thought. I, like Sherona, saw this coming a mile away. And it's disgusting how the oil prices are going up over there if it's in reaction to this, Poet. He hasn't even cut off any supplies yet, the bastards.

The Overlord


I've had mixed feelings about this guy. On one hand he's urged Latin America to stand up to the US, which ain't a bad thing if big government or business here can't push around everything south of Texas.

On the other hand, he's just gone too far with his anti-Yankee harangues. At this point he's the Kanye West of the United Nations. He's made a few good points and now he just needs to STFU hardcore.

As I heard yesterday, he's boasting that any American aggression against Venezuela will be punished by shutting off the supply of crude...but the reality of the situation is that stopping shipments to one of his biggest customers will hurt him more than us.

My greater concern is the Russian connection, as they sent some bombers there to do military maneuvers. Since the situation in Georgia, the Russians and NATO have been moving ships and planes about; the board is being carefully set with pieces that I hope does not evolve into the second Cold War.

What Mr. Chavez best realize is that dictators that run oil-rich nations tend to get on the military-industrial complex's shit list fairly easily. If he's actually baiting a confrontation with America then he's a damned fool.

Trieste

Quote from: The Overlord on September 13, 2008, 06:17:57 PM
What Mr. Chavez best realize is that dictators that run oil-rich nations tend to get on the military-industrial complex's shit list fairly easily. If he's actually baiting a confrontation with America then he's a damned fool.

I think it's arrogant to automatically assume we can 'make him pay' or something... the embargo on Cuba is a joke... but it's also stupid of him to assume that he won't earn enmity and attempted retaliation at all because of his oil. I believe there's a couple countries that have been on the shit list that have just a little bit to say on that note...

The Russian aspect worries me as well, but I don't think the upcoming leaders we have queued have the subtlety to carry out such a thing. I cannot picture McCain or Obama pulling it off - I really can't.

Caehlim

Quote from: Trieste on September 12, 2008, 09:06:11 PMMakes me wonder if we supported Chavez in the latest revolution or whatever that put him there. It would suit our track record. We have a habit of placing people who hate us in power.

Interesting that you should say this, because as it turns out it's the direct opposite. America attempted to remove him from power and failed. They funded a military coup in the country, however when he was seized by the military the entire country rioted. The military gave him back.

America's involvement in these events isn't really a secret or even denied. It's pretty textbook CIA operation from back in the day.
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Trieste

Quote from: Caehlim on September 13, 2008, 06:56:11 PM
Interesting that you should say this, because as it turns out it's the direct opposite. America attempted to remove him from power and failed. They funded a military coup in the country, however when he was seized by the military the entire country rioted. The military gave him back.

Are you sure they/we didn't put him there before that, and then change their/our minds? :P

*is being goofy, by the by*

Caehlim

Quote from: Trieste on September 13, 2008, 07:08:33 PM
Are you sure they/we didn't put him there before that, and then change their/our minds? :P

*is being goofy, by the by*

Would America ever do that? Nooo.. :P
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View my Ons and Offs page.

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The Overlord

Quote from: Trieste on September 13, 2008, 06:37:56 PM
I think it's arrogant to automatically assume we can 'make him pay' or something... the embargo on Cuba is a joke... but it's also stupid of him to assume that he won't earn enmity and attempted retaliation at all because of his oil. I believe there's a couple countries that have been on the shit list that have just a little bit to say on that note...


It's not like I'm suggesting we go to war with Venezuela simply because this moron shoots his mouth off, but worst come to worst I don't feel we should be against teaching him some respect. Maybe a flyby of SAC bombers escorted by F-22's right over Caracas, or just drive a carrier battle group past his coastline, just to make the point we can jack him back 100 times worse any-time-we-fracking-want.

I see this guy like that annoying little kid that lived next door that used to throw rocks over the fence and you call you names. It often works until the first time you decide to hop the fence and punch him in the mouth for talking too much.

Sabby

Quote from: The Overlord on September 14, 2008, 01:06:12 AM
It's not like I'm suggesting we go to war with Venezuela simply because this moron shoots his mouth off, but worst come to worst I don't feel we should be against teaching him some respect. Maybe a flyby of SAC bombers escorted by F-22's right over Caracas, or just drive a carrier battle group past his coastline, just to make the point we can jack him back 100 times worse any-time-we-fracking-want.

I see this guy like that annoying little kid that lived next door that used to throw rocks over the fence and you call you names. It often works until the first time you decide to hop the fence and punch him in the mouth for talking too much.


I just love how you Americans handle these things :) if you don't blow it up, just flex your military muscle.

Sherona

#20
Quote from: Sabbat on September 14, 2008, 01:57:28 AM
I just love how you Americans handle these things :) if you don't blow it up, just flex your military muscle.

Once again Sabbat, not all Americans..and really not even most...would support doing what Overlord is saying just because someone is running their mouth.

They kicked out ambassadors, next step is to keep watch if they start to escalate. I think at this moment Americans are getting tired of being randomly insulted constantly that it will take a bit more then yelling insults across borders to get congress to retaliate.

To clarify, we are getting thicker skins so a bit of cage rattling isn't going to declare "military action."

Sabby

Honestly, it sounds like two neighbors yelling at each other across their fence... just on a ridiculously larger scale.

Sherona

*smiles* And where one neighbor holds a decent supply of the other neighbor's oil. With gas prices already ridiculous, and only getting worse, it makes it a bit more important then "Your a moron!"

and in case it wasn't clear, taht "your a moron" was in respect to the neighbors shouting insults..not calling anyone here a moron :P

Oniya

Quote from: Sherona on September 14, 2008, 09:43:50 AM
*smiles* And where one neighbor holds a decent supply of the other neighbor's oil. With gas prices already ridiculous, and only getting worse, it makes it a bit more important then "Your a moron!"

and in case it wasn't clear, taht "your a moron" was in respect to the neighbors shouting insults..not calling anyone here a moron :P

Definitely more important.  This morning we did some recalculations (gas prices are up 50c from a 2-3 days ago), and this little power-play could result in us losing our house.  I work out of the home, but it's part-time/contract work, and we're in a dry period.  My husband has a full time retail job, as does our roommate, but because of schedules, that means 3-4 trips in the car at 4.00/gallon...

It was just starting to go down, too.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
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Sherona

Are you in the US Oniya? A some of the gas hikes were due to Hurricane Ike, once tehy get the refineries back up and running it will go down some.

The Great Triangle

Hugo Chavez was democratically elected, and he's been able to use oil revenues to gradually usurp more and more power in Venezuela, carrying out a bread and circuses social agenda to become president for life, and get more and more of the country's economy under the control of the government.  

He's gradually been becoming more and more agressive in his foreign policy, and his developing alliance with Russia is particularly disturbing.  (not exactly like America hasn't been up to some crazy stuff.  In 2005, Bush attempted to make an alliance with India in exchange for providing them with more advanced nuclear technology, which would enable them to build a large strategic arsenal.  Congress refused to approve the treaty thanks to a fillibuster.)

At any rate, military intervention is highly unlikely, and Chavez needs to keep his approval rating up, so he threatens an embargo he can't possibly engage in.  Nice guy.
Meow!  I'm a kitty; made of fire.

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Oniya

Quote from: Sherona on September 14, 2008, 11:24:22 AM
Are you in the US Oniya? A some of the gas hikes were due to Hurricane Ike, once tehy get the refineries back up and running it will go down some.

Yes, Midwest region.  It'll have to come soon, though.  I'm going to have to dip into funds I was hoping to keep at higher interest just to get through the next month.  On the bright side, I'm not using gas or oil for heat, and you can always pile on more blankets.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

The Overlord

Quote from: Sabbat on September 14, 2008, 01:57:28 AM
I just love how you Americans handle these things :) if you don't blow it up, just flex your military muscle.


Quote from: Sherona on September 14, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
Once again Sabbat, not all Americans..and really not even most...would support doing what Overlord is saying just because someone is running their mouth.


When tensions flare between countries one of the first things any standing president does is ask where the carriers are. We did exactly this when things heated up with China in the year before 9/11 went down. When they rattle their sabers, we divert a carrier battlegroup and sail past and send them a postcard. It's called gunship diplomacy, the British and French used it for years, and it's not always about being a provocation. On the other hand the show of force might convince a potential rival or enemy not to do something rash regarding us. Our military leaders are all versed in Sun Tzu, who said the acme of skill is not fighting and winning a hundred battles, but rather winning a hundred battles without firing a shot.


The simple fact is that most nations would employ it if they could, and it's a bitter pill for some of you to swallow...people hate the US when we do it simply because we can do it. It's all relative.

Sherona

*smiles* That was before Iraq Over-lord. Since Iraq, I really don'tthink that unnecessary military might showing is going to do anything but have people looking at America like I am sure teh european continent nations looked at Germany in the fourties.."Getting a bit too big for their britches, gonna be dangerous.." type thing.

We would have to really have a good reason...I mean a really good reason with the whole WMD that were never found in Iraq, the ties to Al queda that was never found. *shrugs* I just don't think that the next American president would be so ...reckless wtih our reputation.

Instead of being viewed as Bullies we used to be viewed as a deterrant.

The Overlord

Quote from: Sherona on September 14, 2008, 11:50:28 PM


Instead of being viewed as Bullies we used to be viewed as a deterrant.

Well that I agree is our number one problem these days; the current administration has made us into bullies.


There are times, unfortunately, that we must throw our military weight against something, but Bush has made it the first solution rather than one of the last.

Trieste

I'm tempted to take a poll asking how many people think Mister Bush can even spell Sun Tzu, but it seems much like kicking a kitten whose eyes have not yet opened...

Sherona

Quote from: The Overlord on September 14, 2008, 11:53:42 PM
Well that I agree is our number one problem these days; the current administration has made us into bullies.


There are times, unfortunately, that we must throw our military weight against something, but Bush has made it the first solution rather than one of the last.


I can agree with this too. Often times it is important to huff and puff..unfortunately this administration huffed and puffed at SO many countries....and then blew really hard at too many :x ..

Oniya

Quote from: Sherona on September 14, 2008, 11:57:16 PM
I can agree with this too. Often times it is important to huff and puff..unfortunately this administration huffed and puffed at SO many countries....and then blew really hard at too many :x ..

That's a good way to hyperventilate. *nods sagely*
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

The Overlord

Quote from: Trieste on September 14, 2008, 11:55:06 PM
I'm tempted to take a poll asking how many people think Mister Bush can even spell Sun Tzu, but it seems much like kicking a kitten whose eyes have not yet opened...

Hell, he probably tried to order it when he went to China.  :-\


"I'll have some of that General Tso's chicken there, compadre...and while you're at, gimme some Sun Tzu with rice."  (heh heh heh...)

Trieste

Quote from: The Overlord on September 15, 2008, 08:18:05 AM
Hell, he probably tried to order it when he went to China.  :-\


"I'll have some of that General Tso's chicken there, compadre...and while you're at, gimme some Sun Tzu with rice."  (heh heh heh...)

*twitches madly*

ShrowdedPoet

Quote from: The Overlord on September 15, 2008, 08:18:05 AM
Hell, he probably tried to order it when he went to China.  :-\


"I'll have some of that General Tso's chicken there, compadre...and while you're at, gimme some Sun Tzu with rice."  (heh heh heh...)

*beats head into the wall*  It's sad when I, a 20 year old normal American woman, know more than my own president and respect him less than the idiots that live in my hellhole town.
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
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The Overlord

#36
Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on September 19, 2008, 09:49:31 AM
*beats head into the wall*  It's sad when I, a 20 year old normal American woman, know more than my own president and respect him less than the idiots that live in my hellhole town.

And this is the place I've been in the past eight years.



The thing that gets me, when this topic comes up, is that almost invariably a staunch Bush supporter chimes in and says something to the effect- 'Bush is really a lot smarter than he lets on'.

OK...hold up there a second...rewind.


Here's the president of the United fracking States of America, still regarded as the political, economic, cultural and military powerhouse of the world scene. The president of the US, the so-called leader of the free world, etc. etc.


In what possible way does even pretending not to be clever benefit the holder of this office??


I am a 41 year old American male, definitely way smarter than the average guy. Machismo and alpha male Marlboro men do not ever impress me....intelligence does. I expect my president to be at least as smart as I; hopefully even more so.


This much at least I can say of John McCain or Barak Obama; nobody is questioning intellect. I have no doubt that McCain is up to the task of president in every respect, I even tend to like the guy from the TV appearances I've seen him make, the problem is that I am convinced he's not the right guy for America this November. Very probably not right for us far beyond US borders.

At least we'll have that this year; either way we won't be worrying about having a smart president in office. After nearly a decade without, it will be really nice to see that again.  :-\

Oniya

Quote from: The Overlord on September 19, 2008, 10:14:35 PM
The thing that gets me, when this topic comes up, is that almost invariably a staunch Bush supporter chimes in and says something to the effect- 'Bush is really a lot smarter than he lets on'.

OK...hold up there a second...rewind.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." 
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Trieste

*steers conversation back on track*

I haven't heard anything further about Venezuela, Bolivia (wasn't it Bolivia?) or Russia. So, like, what is up? ANy further developments that people can find?

Oniya

Chavez is apparently shopping around for buyers - and it's a sellers market.  From the headlines, he's talking to China, Vietnam, and Russia, and his profits are up 961%
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

The Overlord

Quote from: Trieste on September 19, 2008, 10:30:50 PM
*steers conversation back on track*



Oh alright...but I must admit it was fun to take the car off-road a few miles and wipe out some mailboxes.  :P



It's been quiet the last few days, at least I haven't seen this in the headlines and I haven't gone looking for it.

In regards to Chavez (Venezuela), he's like chronic hemorrhoids; he'll flare up here and there and make you sore, and then after you've gotten almost comfortable he's back.

The Russian front, strangely quiet as well. I think after everyone got red-faced over the Georgian issue and they promised to send bombers to Venezuela, the situation has cooled a bit.


Might be the Ike Factor; Mother Nature got her riding mower out of the shed and cut a path across Texas…at this point the Third-World dictators are a little passé.

Trieste

I know people have a big fat storm sitting in front of their faces, but letting it obscure the view of everything else frustrates me. It's just a damned hurricane.

*sigh*

*puts her mailbox back up on its post*

Quote from: Oniya on September 19, 2008, 10:43:59 PM
Chavez is apparently shopping around for buyers - and it's a sellers market.  From the headlines, he's talking to China, Vietnam, and Russia, and his profits are up 961%

He was doing that before, wasn't he? He's ... been doing that for a while now, I thought.

Oniya

The article about his profits was in the last couple of days.  It looked like there was some recent history with the China connection, and the Russian oil companies are making noises about making a joint venture to get something going down there (Bloomberg's article was pretty scant on details).
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

The Overlord

Quote from: Trieste on September 19, 2008, 10:55:30 PM
It's just a damned hurricane.



I beg to differ...ever been down to Galveston Island, Texas? It's a nice weekend hangout, even if the beaches aren't as clean and white as further east in Florida. Got some great seafood restaurants and bars on the piers overlooking the water.

I have been there a couple times, I know what it used to look like. Saying 'it's just a hurricane' is about as off the mark as saying 'it's just a nuclear bomb'.



Trieste

Okay. I'm not saying that it doesn't do damage, or that it doesn't mess up a lot of peoples' days. I used to live in hurricane country; I lived in Florida for the Years of the Endless Evacuations (Bertha, Ivan, Dennis, etc etc etc etc etc ... cannot remember all of their names). I know hurricanes suck. It's still no reason to let it completely obscure everyone's view of the larger picture. A small part of the country is dealing with the hurricane. The rest of us should be playing lookout while they get their shit back together.

RubySlippers

What is the big deal Chevez is popular, is providing for the needs of his people, is standing up to Big Oil to get a bigger cut of the profits, is generally decent and has the support of the military. And he did effectively destroy the drug trade out of his nation why not give the poor man some credit he heads a generally stable nation.

And compared to Bush this man is worse?  :-\

Trieste

That must be why Americans hate him so much. Jealousy.

*sage nod*

Vekseid

Chavez is a first degree idiot who wrecked his nation's oil production potential and is currently tying to distract his citizens from the fact with fervent anti-americanism.

Eventually Brazil will get annoyed, I imagine.

The Overlord

#48
Quote from: Trieste on September 20, 2008, 08:11:11 PM
I know hurricanes suck. It's still no reason to let it completely obscure everyone's view of the larger picture. A small part of the country is dealing with the hurricane. The rest of us should be playing lookout while they get their shit back together.

I agree 100% here, but the long-term trend is that the news media has to have a focus, and that focus is usually on sensationalism.

The millennium had barely ticked in when the situation with China came to the front page. But then by next year Boom...9/11. Now we don't just have evil-doers that want to force down our aircraft and get us to chop them up and crate them away, hell no...now they come here and steal our planes and trash our buildings with them.

Ike carried much more destructive potential than Venezuela could ever hope to and it landed in our back yard, sensationalism yes, but also understandable. Ultimately Ike reached category 4, but Chavez never blows more than hot air.



The Overlord

Quote from: Trieste on September 20, 2008, 08:15:12 PM
That must be why Americans hate him so much. Jealousy.

*sage nod*

I don't hate Chavez, I just think he's a bloomin' idiot.


As I said earlier in this thread, I actually respected some of his motives at first; getting Latin America to stand up to US pressure on many things is a good thing, but at some point he just became Kanye West and needs to STFU now and let cooler heads in Latin America speak.

Trieste

... that was ...

...

There is no sarcasm on the internet. :(

The Overlord