Israel / Hamas Conflict in the West Bank

[GloomCookie]

This is CNN's bullet list of what is going on as of 1633 CDT on 7 October 2023, links are to appropriate articles for more in depth coverage.
* Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel is "at war" after Gaza militants launched a surprise attack Saturday morning, firing thousands of rockets and entering Israel by land, sea and air using paragliders.
* At least 200 people have died and hundreds of others are wounded in Israel, officials said. Fighting has carried through the day, and a fresh round of rocket attacks hit areas in Tel Aviv on Saturday evening.
* In Gaza, at least 232 Palestinians have died and more than 1,600 are wounded, the Palestinian health ministry said. Israel launched air strikes on the territory in response to the attack.
* Hamas claims it has captured dozens of Israelis, including soldiers, and videos authenticated by CNN show some of the dramatic seizures. Israel's military has acknowledged hostages were taken.

[GloomCookie]

Good morning everyone.

Current headlines as of 0804 CDT on 8 October 2023 are as follows:

* Israel warns of 'long war' ahead as it battles to push Hamas fighters out.

Israel's political-security cabinet convened late Saturday and made a "series of operational decisions aimed at bringing about the destruction of the military and governmental capabilities of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, in a way that would negate their ability to threaten and harm the citizens of Israel for many years to come," according to a statement from the office of Israel's Prime Minister.

Netanyahu warned Israel would take "mighty vengeance" on Hamas following its unprecedented assault, urging Palestinians living in Gaza to "leave now" and that the military was "clearing terrorists" out of Israeli communities and "restoring control".

* Israel death toll likely to surpass 500 in Hamas attacks.

* The number of Palestinians killed has risen to 313.

At least 313 Palestinians have been killed and another 1,990 wounded in the last 24 hours, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza said.

Israel has been carrying out airstrikes targeting Hamas since the group's deadly surprise attack against Israel beginning early Saturday morning.

* The IDF (Israeli Defense Force) vows to control all of Gaza as conflict enters its second day.

The significant thing that preoccupies us right now is the stabilization of control in the Gaza Strip. We have targets for the next 12 hours: to end the Gaza enclave. To control the entire enclave and kill all the terrorists in our territory.

We are probably going to try to evict certain communities in areas of Gaza. As the day goes on, we might evict people from certain areas of Gaza.

...

"We are prepared with many forces with an emphasis on Judea and Samaria and the northern arena - to stop any event if there is an attack against us. We are prepared for disturbances or attempted attacks if there are any."

...

"We are going to respond severely against Hamas. It's goign to take some time."

[inkybus]

So much wasted life for land that won't even belong to the fighters themselves, since it will go to and be ruled by their so-called "leaders".

I don't see the reason to go to such lengths, I just hope that more innocents can be saved from this senseless violence.

[Al Terego]

The casualties on the Israeli side is over 600 dead and 1600 injured, with the overwhelming majority being unarmed civilians -- mostly children, women and elderly who were gunned down or burned in their homes.  An estimate of about a 100 hostages (also predominately children, women, and elderly) were kidnapped to Gaza to serve as negotiation chips, and if necessary human shields.

The only "solution" that Hamas will accept, by their own vocal admission, is the complete annihilation of Israel.

They are terrorists, plain and simple.

[elone]

Hamas has committed war crimes in this latest endeavor. However, Israel impunity for over 50 years has led to this mess. Gaza has been described as an "open air prison" and people there have given up hope of a just peace with Israel. Netanyahu has propped up Hamas to keep the tension going and kept the Gazans on strict rations, destroyed the infrastructure and made living difficult at best.  There is no excuse for the murderous terrorism, but there is plenty of blame to go around.  After all Hamas was the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinians at one time. Not recognized by Israel or the US when it happened. The West bank may rise up as well. Then there is Hezbollah waiting in the wings.  The Saudis seem ready to throw the Palestinians overboard. Nothing good will come of this.

Israel was never a land of no people for a peoples with no land. Israel still to this day has no borders and no constitution and is an apartheid nation. That some day Palestinians, whether Hamas or others will rise up is no surprise. There will be hell to pay for this. Israel will once again directly occupy Gaza, ethnically cleanse or expel their enemies and go about their business.

Still no real peace.

[Al Terego]

people there have given up hope of a just peace with Israel.

In order to have just peace with somebody, the first step would be to recognize their right to exist.

Have a read, it's quite interesting.

Netanyahu has propped up Hamas

That is a serious (and false) allegation.  I'd like to see some evidence.

There is no excuse for the murderous terrorism, but there is plenty of blame to go around.

I think we are in mostly agreement on this, even if we may differ on the details.

Nothing good will come of this.

Unfortunately, you are correct.

[Missy]

I'm no expert on Isreal/Palestine, but I know that you can't have peace if people aren't ready for it. True it's hard when conflict is so embedded into history, but the future is in the hands of the current generation and nothing less.

[Chulanowa]

In order to have just peace with somebody, the first step would be to recognize their right to exist.

Have a read, it's quite interesting.

Israel has as much right to exist as the Confederate States of America, Rhodesia, Transdnistria, and Westphalia. Ymmv on exactly how much of a right that is.

That is a serious (and false) allegation.  I'd like to see some evidence.

While I'm uncertain of Netanyahu's involvement in particular, Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) were definitely backed by Israel in the 1980's as a method of destabilizing and undermining the PLO and other secular / nationalist groups.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

[elone]

I read it Al.  It says: Since 1994,[46] the group has frequently stated that it would accept a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, paid reparations, allowed free elections in the territories[48] and gave Palestinian refugees the right to return.[j]

Of course Israel would have none of that. Peace would have to be on their terms; Apartheid.

The allegation of Netanyahu's aide to Hamas is a matter of history. He propped them up making them a foil to Abbas.

I realize that Hamas killing people is beyond unacceptable, but why is it that when they kill civilians it is terrorism, but when Israel assassinates people and bombs, killing many more civilians than Hamas, it is security and acceptable? The right to defend themselves. Nothing but Hasbara from Israel and their sympathizers.

One mans trash is another's treasure.  All a matter of who you believe.

[GloomCookie]

I would like to toss in that the Palestinians are a people that themselves moved into the region in the past. They also are an Islamic majority, which is why Israel takes it as a challenge when Hamas and other groups attack. Israel has hostile neighbors on every single border, and it was only their success in the Six Day War of 1967 that Egypt even officially recognizes them as a state. Israeli intelligence knows where the money for Hamas comes from, and very little of it is coming from the Palestinians themselves, but from the other Islamic powers in the region. The Biden Administration itself has states that while the exact amount of support Iran has given to Hamas remains uncertain, there is no doubt that Tehran has been providing support in the form of funding and arms.

There is always a case to be made that it might be better to just pack up and leave the middle east, but the nation was specifically set up as a sovereign nation for the Jewish people following their specific ethnic cleansing during WWII. The fact that the nation is trying to balance the needs of all three religions that have had numerous conflicts over the past several centuries while being surrounded on all sides by dangerous and hostile nations is something to be admired, even if sometimes their methods can seem somewhat brutal and uncompromising.

What I can only hope for is that once the IDF secures the Gaza strip that they don't become brutal occupiers but instead try and actually work to improve the Palestinian situation, not just retaliate. It's unfortunate that while the attack may have been caused by Hamas, the reaction to the counter-offensive will be seen by the Islamic populations as Israel using its power to try and stamp them out, and only enflame further strife in the region between the two.

[Al Terego]

Israel has as much right to exist as the Confederate States of America, Rhodesia, Transdnistria, and Westphalia.

I wonder if that is more or less of a right than the United States has.

I read it Al.

All of it or just the first part?

It says: Since 1994, the group has frequently stated that it would accept a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, paid reparations, allowed free elections in the territories and gave Palestinian refugees the right to return.

The right of return means bringing 5 million Palestinians into Israel Proper (that is, inside the 1967 borders) making Israelis a minority in their own country.  That, combined with a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West bank, in return for a *temporary* truce is tantamount to the destruction of Israel, which is a non-starter.

Of course Israel would have none of that. Peace would have to be on their terms; Apartheid.

Contrary to what you may think, most Israelis just want peace.  The Oslo accords were seen at the time as a stepping stone to that goal, with an eye to a "two states for two peoples" solution (a solution which Hamas incidentally rejects).   I remember being very optimistic about it at the time, "lasting peace within my lifetime" seemed like a real possibility.  Unfortunately, things (both politics and people) are complicated.

I realize that Hamas killing people is beyond unacceptable, but why is it that when they kill civilians it is terrorism, but when Israel assassinates people and bombs, killing many more civilians than Hamas, it is security and acceptable?

Hamas operates and fires rockets from within civilian population centers.  The three options are: let the rockets continue, bomb the sites knowing that there will be civilian casualties, and targeted killing of the people responsible, none of which is a good option.

What I can only hope for is that once the IDF secures the Gaza strip that they don't become brutal occupiers but instead try and actually work to improve the Palestinian situation, not just retaliate. It's unfortunate that while the attack may have been caused by Hamas, the reaction to the counter-offensive will be seen by the Islamic populations as Israel using its power to try and stamp them out, and only enflame further strife in the region between the two.

No matter how I look at it, it's a clusterfuck that is only going to get worse.

[Chulanowa]

I wonder if that is more or less of a right than the United States has.

Equal, in fact.

There is no such thing as a "states' right to exist." No state in the world - current, past, future, recognized, unrecognized - has such a "right." Not Israel, not the US, not the Republic of Donetsk, not Molossia, not the USSR, not the Kingdom of Naples, not France, not Palestine or the Sahrawi Republic and certainly fucking not the United Kingdom. Inventing such a right would make shit go haywire REAL fast, globally.

I'm no expert on Isreal/Palestine

While I would hesitate to call myself an "expert" (it's not like I have a degree) I do have a pretty substantial body of knowledge on the subject. If you have questions, I'd be more than happy to try my best to answer them.

[Oniya]

It is, in fact, a clusterfuck.  And part of the problem goes back to the very beginning, when Israel was 'willed into existence' at the end of WWII, without any apparent consideration of the fact that people were already living in the area 'designated' for the new country.  (In many ways, this is similar to the previous colonization history of the Americas, and we're only recently getting around to attempting recompense for all of that.)

By the way, before the Crusades, Jerusalem was held as sacred ground by all three Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam - and all three groups in the region recognized each other's rights to treat it as such.

[WhatLiesAbove]

I'm going to start this by saying that I am a Zionist...in that I recognize Israel's right to exist as a state. That said, I am NOT a fan of the current Israeli government and think that Netanyahu is a criminal, a borderline fascist, a blatant racist xenophobe, and a sociopath of epic proportions.

With that in mind, this latest attack cannot be laid at the feet of Israel. Yes, there are issues on both sides. Yes, a two-state solution is the ONLY way for this to end peacefully. No, that solution won't happen so long as Israel occupies area's of Gaza and the West Bank.

Regardless of your feelings on it, Hamas is a terrorist organization. To make excuses for it's current state by saying "Israel propped it up in the 80's" is kind of silly. The US propped up Al Qaeda in the 70's, how well did that end up working out? What matters is that Hamas used terrorist propoganda and bullying to get into power in Gaza. Now they use human shields in Gaza to launch attacks into Israel, then claim to be the victim when Israel retaliates. The Taliban did the same thing in Afghanistan. Sorry, doesn't fly with me.

Here is the facts on Hamas and this latest attack, compared with Israel:

Israel never kidnapped the elderly, women, and children. That's Hamas

Israel never fired random rockets into Gaza. That's Hamas

Israel never tried to inflict as much damage as possible on civilians. Hamas blatantly targeted civilians, and always has.


I want to make it clear that during this whole thing, I've never spoken again PALESTINIANS. I am focusing on Hamas. I do that because they are a terrorist organization. The current borders of Gaza and the West Bank are the same as the 1967 borders. The only difference is that Israel currently controls the Golan Heights...which, it should be noted, was never controlled by the Palestinians. It was controlled by Syria, who lost it AFTER their attack on Israel during the Yom Kippur war.

Being Jewish, being a Zionist, and having been to Israel and meeting and bonding with both Israeli's and Palestinians, I try to keep some tabs on what happens in that area. However, I do have a question that nobody seems willing to answer. With everything going on, it's never pointed out that the other countries surrounding Israel....Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt...have not only never done ANYTHING to help the Palestinians, they openly deny them any entry to any part of their countries. Yet at the same time, those same countries curse Israel and throughout the last 70 years have at some point or another called for it's extermination. Why is that?

[inkybus]

I am of the same thought: the palestinians who just want to get along are not to blame. It's the Terrorists in Hamas and those evil people who collaborate with them, shelter them, feed them and occasionally fight alongside them... they are just as bad as the terrorists.

Such reprehensible people should be stopped sooner rather than later.

[Al Terego]

To those that claimed that Israel helped build up Hamas to foil Fatah: you were right, I was wrong.
I just could not believe the incredible shortsightedness -- nay, the monumental stupidity -- that could lead to such a move.
Especially given the US experience with arming Islamist groups against the Soviet Union.

Bloody hell!

[Chulanowa]

I am of the same thought: the palestinians who just want to get along are not to blame. It's the Terrorists in Hamas and those evil people who collaborate with them, shelter them, feed them and occasionally fight alongside them... they are just as bad as the terrorists.

Such reprehensible people should be stopped sooner rather than later.

That's a lot of dead people you're wishing for there Inkybus. I'm not sure that's the same thought as anyone on this thread.

[WhatLiesAbove]

That's a lot of dead people you're wishing for there Inkybus. I'm not sure that's the same thought as anyone on this thread.

I’ve spent the last hour watching how much Israelis have suffered from this. Sorry, but anyone that supports Hamas gets zero sympathy from me. None. While I am sorry for the people of Gaza, those that are part of Hamas and support Hamas are about to get everything they deserve.

[inkybus]

That's a lot of dead people you're wishing for there Inkybus. I'm not sure that's the same thought as anyone on this thread.

Please take a bit longer to read next time. I explicitly wrote 'stopped'.

[elone]

The right of return for Palestinians is due to the fact that Israeli's ethnically cleansed the territory in 1948 after defying the borders that were generously given to them by the UN. No, the Palestinians did not start the war in 1948. It was fought entirely in the territory given by the UN to Palestine.  Return from where exactly?  Over 750,00 Palestinians were sent from their homes to Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and elsewhere. They, and their descendants still live in refugee camps to this day. Israel committed mass killings, rape, theft and too many atrocities to mention. Entire villages were bombed and destroyed so no one could ever return. This was Zionism. A country that defies laws and the world was created. Israel to this day will not release the archives of what they did to create a country. They terrorized the British and their neighbors, assassinated their enemies and performed numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity. They were no better than Hamas is now. Both unforgivable.

Perhaps if Israel would get off the backs of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and listen to them then peace could have a chance.

[elone]

I'm going to start this by saying that I am a Zionist...in that I recognize Israel's right to exist as a state.

Here is the facts on Hamas and this latest attack, compared with Israel:

Israel never kidnapped the elderly, women, and children. That's Hamas

Israel never fired random rockets into Gaza. That's Hamas

Israel never tried to inflict as much damage as possible on civilians. Hamas blatantly targeted civilians, and always has.

While I sympathize with what you have said, these three points bear some comments.

Israel did not kidnap?  What do you call putting people in detention without trial, what do you call taking people from their homes in the middle of the night? Israel prefers to kill them outright it seems. Then they will not have to fire random rockets.

Damage to civilians? Since the year 2000 over 2400 children have been killed by Israel. This does not even include women and non combatant civilians. Hamas targets civilian areas because the lack the technology to hit IDF and other military targets. Don't lay all the blame on Hamas. Granted thy are terrorists in many eyes, but not all.

Give/let Hamas have planes to bomb Israel, restore their airport and infrastructure that Israel has bombed to oblivion, leaving people helpless.

[Al Terego]

As of now, at least 800 Israelis killed, with over 600 of them civilians.
Estimate of Palestinians killed is at 830, over 400 of them on Israeli territory (militants/terrorists)

[elone]

As of now, at least 800 Israelis killed, with over 600 of them civilians.
Estimate of Palestinians killed is at 830, over 400 of them on Israeli territory (militants/terrorists)

Israeli's have told the Gazan's to flee.  Where??? Maybe when the Palestinian death toll reaches about 3,000 they will stop the destruction and claim they were all Hamas deaths,  no civilians.  Of course no one can believe the IDF.  Negotiations have proven futile at this point. UN says Israel must follow International law. Good luck with that, they never have, don't even follow the Oslo accords or there would have been peace by now.

[elone]

BBC news reports thousands of Hamas sites hit by aircraft.  Really, are there that many Hamas sites?

[Al Terego]

Summarized from Wikipedia:

On 7 October 2023, at the start of an invasion of Israel by Hamas in October 2023, Hamas militants who had entered Israel from the Gaza Strip attacked civilians at a music festival near the Re'im secular kibbutz. At least 260 were killed, with many others wounded. The gunmen took hostages; their locations and condition are not publicly known.

The musical festival was one of the first targets of the surprise attack against Israel, launched by Hamas in the early morning hours of 7 October 2023.

One attendee stated that after cutting the electricity, a group of approximately 50 Hamas gunmen arrived in vans and sprayed gunfire in all directions. As festival attendees fled in panic, jeeps filled with gunmen began firing at the escaping cars. Gunmen also blockaded roads. The wide open terrain left few places to hide. Many attendees who hid in the trees were murdered as militants methodically shot them. Others who hid in bushes and orchards managed to survive.[3] The massacre took place amid a rocket siren, signaling a barrage of rockets fired into Israel.

Independently verified drone footage of the site showed dozens of scorched, burnt cars and skid marks. Photographs from the aftermath of the attack show dozens of bodies at the festival grounds, including a badly burned body bound by cable ties. Hamas paraded the battered body of Shani Nicole Louk, a 22-year-old tattoo artist and German-Israeli dual citizen, clad only in her underwear in the back of a pickup truck; the video shows gunmen chanting "Allahu Akbar", one draping his leg over her waist, another grabbing her hair, and a man in the crowd spitting on her body. Other footage of the attack, posted on a Telegram channel, included graphic depictions of murder and hostage-taking. Footage from the attack "raised concerns of sexual assault against women", according to The Times of Israel.


Anyone who tries to justify these people or their actions should take a long hard look in the mirror.