Terrorism in Scandinavia

[Xenophile]

Earlier today, there was a terrorist bombing in Oslo, the Norwegian Capitol.
http://www.businessinsider.com/big-explosion-at-government-building-in-downtown-oslo-many-injured-2011-7 Here is some information, I'm observing the televised news more at the moment.

And it would seem that the Norwegian intelligence police suspects that the most likely suspects can be found amongst Islamist Fundamentalists. Near the last Christmas holidays, there was a suicide bombing in the Swedish Capitol Stockholm, which had only one casualty (the bomber himself) and one man who was only injured by the shrapnel. That act was confirmed to be done with Jihadist motivations.

One year from today, it would have been impossible to imagine the Scandinavian countries to be victims to terrorism like this. As a Scandinavian myself, I am surprised when I really shouldn't be. All the Scandinavian countries has some military presence in Afghanistan or Iraq and it was just a matter of time before 'we' would see some kind of retaliation.

My most immediate fear, during the bombing in Stockholm, was concern for the Muslim minority in the country. I fear some violent mobs going on rampages in the immigrant dense suburbs of the major cities, and the family of the suicide bomber who was unaware of his actions could have been in danger. Thankfully, there was none of that. The Norwegian bombing is more severe, now that the bomb was much greater, and there have been 2 confirmed deaths by the Norwegian radio and I fear that more innocents will be hurt or come to suffer from this mad act of holy retribution.

I just wanted to share the news. And I wanted to start discussion about this event, similar events, and what might happen in the future. My most deepest concern for now is that the governments of Scandinavia will become more populist, and more isolationistic, that we will experience a blossom in xenophobia.

[Utopia]

...ouch. I see the Danish extreme right-wing go crazy now and with that, I see a lot of trouble coming on in the EU. Yay. As if we didn't have to give the Euro a leg-up, whack the Hungarian government over the head until they're gone, finally get a grip on our immigrant policies and need to deal with some crumbling economies. Yay for more concerns!

Now that that is off my mind: That is... so horrible. I can't find a better phrase. It's just so horrible. I guess I'll never fully understand how a person is able to do that, but I also guess that this is beside the point. I'm genuinely surprised that there are only two deaths after seeing the video that is linked in the article, but at least that is something more bright to latch on. Things could probably have been a lot worse... hopefully there won't be a follow-up bombing.

That being said, I have no idea of the political climate in the Scandinavian countries right now, I know only the basic stuff that they teach us in Politic Science. But I have to admit that it worries me that someone - an insider, if you wish - fears that there might be mobs persecuting Moslems after an incident like this... but coming to think of it, I'd probably fear the same for Germany. :/ That is slightly unsettling. (Excuse me, short 'Stop the world, I want to get off and live somewhere less violent'-moment going on here.)

But to be entirely honest, I think that the bombing doesn't only have to do with the Scandinavian countries being militarily present in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also... remember the uprise because of the Mohammed caricatures? I guess that did its part to fuel the hate - even though the hate is rather uncalled for. (But then again, who am I to judge what is going on in the mind of an extremist?)

I really hope that the Norwegian government is able to handle this. We don't need anymore hate and distrust - alertness is okay, vigilance is okay, but there really is no need to fuel those fires and I hope, I hope so munch that the government will refrain from doing so. (And, of course, sadly enough this is just what all the extreme right-wing politicians have been waiting for. Hooray! Just what we needed. C'mon, Europe, please be sensible and do not listen to them...)

[Xenophile]

And it would seem that is not all that has happened in Oslo today. At seemingly the same time, at a summer camp for the youth division of the Left-Labour party in Norway just outside Oslo, a man dressed as a police fired a weapon and shot 5 youths. I have seen no news yet if these two acts are linked, however.

I swear, this is one miserable day.

[Xenophile]

The caricatures have been mentioned in the news I have seen as a possible reason. It would seem that a radical Muslim Imam had preached violence, and was threatened with deportation if I recall it right as well. Norway has lent air planes to the actions in Libya as well.

My initial fears of mob violence is probably overreacted. There was nothing of the sort in Sweden, and there is likely to be nothing similar in Norway. But I wouldn't be surprised. I sort of feel that very little would surprise me at the moment.

[Utopia]

It just doesn't want to get any better, does it?

As horrible as it is, but I am hoping with all my heart that these acts aren't linked - it probably would get even more ugly if they were... this really is a black day. I can't even find the words to express the sadness I feel... I guess I can only resume to wishing and hoping that this won't turn out as badly as it could, that there won't be any more bombings and shootings, that they are able to get the masterminds that might be behind this, that the government is able to pull through more or less smoothly, that there won't be any more deaths...

I had feared that the caricatures would have a longer aftermath as expected, but this - I haven't expected this. I mean, they're caricatures! (And there we are again, at the old point of 'I'll never understand those extremists'.) It just... seems so uncalled for.

And while your fears might be an overreaction, Xenophile... I don't know, it's all about the gut feeling, isn't it? I wouldn't really expect a mob here in Germany, Sweden, Norway, the UK, France, Hungary, etc. but the simple thought that it just might be possible still is unsettling. I might be overreacting too (see: German history and the several slight phobias that most of the Germans developed because of it), but still... I could see it happening under the right circumstances. Not now, not in a year, not in five years. But if I recall correctly, there is a slight decline of democracy and democratic values worldwide and although this is said to be a circular trend of increase and decline.... well. A stitch in time saves nine and this is also why I am now praying that the European governments will get a grasp on the situation before it escalates. (I already see the headlines in the populist magazines here in Germany in front of me and they make me shudder. And seeing as our dear Bundeskanzler is a populist to the core, I do hope that the German government will act as if it consisted of people with brains for once. They always claim to have influence in Europe and hopefully they'll use it to put out the fires that might pop up.)

And then of course, that this particular fear is actually managing to arise as a first reaction... that also speaks for itself.

Enough catastrophising now, however. I'll try and leave the field for others that manage to contribute more rational input and less horrified responses.

That was creepily Germany-centred.

[gaggedLouise]

Saw a newsflash on tv this afternoon and have been following this on tv and on the web since then, but still catching up. I was changing to a new channel decoder box after the old one passed out last week, and due to a card error I still only have access to domestic (Swedish) tv on the set, but they relayed Norwegian tv news in the early hours after the event; hope to have full access to BBC , CNN and a few dozen more channels in a few days time.

At the moment, about ten hours after the attacks, seventeen people are confirmed dead, seven in Oslo ahd ten at the summer camp. They're still looking through the rubble in Oslo and for that and other obvious reasons the death toll might rise a bit tomorrow.

This seems absolutely warped and I really can't see who would be able to come up with a motive for tossing bombs and engineering a shooting spree in Oslo, even allowing for the unhinged minds of that kind of people. Norway has had very little real involvement in the Afghan fighting and no military presence at all, as far as I know, in Iraq. They have taken an effective part in the NATO effort to aid the Libyan rebels (Sweden sent airplanes down there too as part of the no-fly zone upkeep) so Khadaffi and his sympathizers might be a possible connection, but it still looks far-fetched. If the Khadaffi camp wanted to do something demonstrative, wouldn't they, God forbid,  do it in Paris or London?

It does look very likely that the bombs in Oslo and the shooting at the summer camp in the countryside are linked, and are political terror acts; it would be very high odds for this to happen at the same time and just by chance if it were just a few lone maniac disgruntled persons acting from private neurosises. Nothing like this has happened in Norway (or anywhere in Scandinavia, I think) in peacetime for the last two hundred years (and as Sweden and Norway haven't been in war with another country since 1814, except for Norway being occupied and spawning a resistance movement against Germany during the second world war, that means basically nothing like this has happened in modern history here; there are no true parallels in Denmark either). There hasn't been anything like the blowout in Oslo in terms of how strong it was or the number of victims of an act of terrorism, and shooting sprees of the kind that happened at Utöya are extremely rare too. We have yet to see a major school shooting - there's been two in Finland in the past few years.

I was in Stockholm at the time of the failed suicide bombing there. Though it fluked, the guy came close to achieving a carnage that could have been even worse than in Oslo. He had a Middle Eastern background but had lived in Sweden for many years and then started developing secret contacts with foreign jihadists. There's also the "Jihad Jane" plot against artist Lars Vilks who has become a prime target for terrorist threats, and occasional real attacks, after his infamous drawings of Mohammad as a dog (a very crude ploy or joke by him if you ask me, but of course it doesn't justify any kind of blood threats). Unfortunately I think it's likely that some islamist group will attempt suicide bombings or the like in Scandinavia again, but the thing in Norway really looks odd, so far. And absolutely awful. And no matter what the police may find in the coming weeks these acts will be used, of course, to drum up more hatred against - you guessed it - Muslims.

[Hemingway]

I haven't been able to follow all the news, as I'm out of the country, but they have arrested one person suspected of being responsible. And, get this, the person in question is not a muslim. He's not a foreigner at all, but a Norwegian nationalist.

Perhaps something to consider.

[gaggedLouise]

I haven't been able to follow all the news, as I'm out of the country, but they have arrested one person suspected of being responsible. And, get this, the person in question is not a muslim. He's not a foreigner at all, but a Norwegian nationalist.

Perhaps something to consider.

Mmm. It makes it sound even more odd - what kind of grievance would push a Norwegian nationalist to this kind of thing? - but I'd say if he is involved in both of these killings, then it's 95% sure he must have had some kind of supporting network. You don't do this kind of thing all alone. Shooting sprees yes, but major terrorist bombings are hardly ever done just by one isolated nut without other people who have actively helped and geared them up.

And if it turns out he's involved, ultra right-wing parties will still be throwing his act into the stew of examples they'll use to paint the image that "we're under constant siege from the Muslim terrorists and migrants".

[Oniya]

Is it possible that this guy (and whoever's helping him) might be trying to create the impression that there are Muslim terrorists?  Sort of like white supremacists putting on blackface and committing crimes to make people think that there's a huge criminal element in the minority community?  Or have I been watching too many conspiracy movies?

[gaggedLouise]

Is it possible that this guy (and whoever's helping him) might be trying to create the impression that there are Muslim terrorists?  Sort of like white supremacists putting on blackface and committing crimes to make people think that there's a huge criminal element in the minority community?  Or have I been watching too many conspiracy movies?

I wouldn't put it past them. The idea that "anywhere you find Muslim/Arab immigrants you have a constant walking risk of suicide bombings and airplane hijackings" is the primary crowdpleaser argument of Neo-Nazis, racists and their kind today - and one that keeps seeping into ordinary conservative political talk. And since we haven't had, so far, any really major act of terror with several people dead perpetrated by Islamist terrorists here in Scandinavia, it would be a boost for those homegrown movements if they could point to one. Now they have to do with pointing to plans, never fully realised, by fringe groups, to flyleaf appeals without much real backing and to 9/11, the 2005 London bombings  and other al-Qaeda actions that have happened abroad. But if that was the idea then it looks like it wasn't very carefully executed. The cover would have been blown already.

[gaggedLouise]

Just hearing on the Norwegian news being relayed to Sweden that the death toll in the shooting at the summer camp of the youth association of the Social Democratic party is now at - 80. Holy crap!  :'(

[Alsheriam]

I'm peeking through the details and in my mind it looks unlikely that it was the work of jihadists.

Anders Behring Breivik, age 32 has his interests listed on his now-removed Facebook profile as: Tolstoy, Dexter, freemasonry, traveling, hunting, partying, fitness, classical music.

The perp looks to be a right-wing nationalist sort.
http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/innenriks/politiaksjon-hos-paagrepet-mann-32-i-oslo-3544610.html (Google Chrome with Google Translate ftw)

[gaggedLouise]

Apparently the Prime Minister of Norway, Jens Stoltenberg (who's also the leader of the Labour party), was set to visit the summer camp today, and he most likely will, though it will be a different kind of visit. I'm not gonna infer that the killer/s actually meant to hit Stoltenberg and got it wrong by one day; the first impression is that the people who did this must have been capable and sort of professional-minded. And that only makes it more chilling. But the fact that the shooting spree played out the day before an intended visit by the PM makes the link to what happened in the capital clearer.

There's not much doubt that political people and all kinds of VIPs around Scandinavia will be taking a long hard look at their security after this, but it would be very damaging too if these killings would break down the relative openness and - sometimes - informality of political life, both at ground level and  higher up, around here. People here do not want politics to be something that plays out under heavy glass bowls of protection and filtering, with gatekeepers everywhere. There is more than enough of that already.

[Alsheriam]

I was being told that there was more security placed around the art museum and the painting, The Scream than there was around government buildings. One observer pointed out that the Norwegian king only had one ceremonial guard standing at the palace.

There's nothing wrong with having a disdain for overkill in security. The US government has that art perfected in unproductive and unnecessary overkill. Security should've been a way of life ever since 9/11 and I was honestly astonished that Norwegian security in particular was this lax.

[Hemingway]

I'm having a slightly difficult time seeing how huge security would've made a difference in this case. The royal palace wasn't targeted, the bomb was in a car, but as far as number of victims goes, pales in comparison to the shootings. Apparently he was dressed as a policeman when it was carried out, and it's not like it's a high risk target to begin with.

[Alsheriam]

It's not so much about the actual physical presence of security but the attitude of security. Whoever was in charge of it certainly had a very lax attitude about it. A lot of work that goes unseen is all counter-terrorism and nipping the perps in the bud while they are still in planning phase before they even get to execute whatever the hell they were planning.

Because really, anyone who places more security on a painting than their heads of state combined need to have their heads checked. That very act alone disturbed me to the core and made me wonder what other misplaced priorities the Norwegians had.

[Sabby]

Yeah, I heard about this through Andy... he's from Denmark and was pretty much glued to his TV when I said hey. I know its horrible that anyone died, but all I've been able to think of is how damned lucky they seem :/ I mean, car bombings take a dozen people with them, usually more, this is a Govt building and only two people were lost... I kind of get the impression these terrorists are all passion and no planning. I mean, one only blew himself up...

[gaggedLouise]

I can't really reply for Norway in any depth, but I don't think it's the case that you could have penetrated anywhere near the actual living quarters or offices of the royals or key government people without being stopped and screened. Security in the interior of the royal palace and the government buildings, in Oslo or Stockholm, is not that lax. You'd need a valid passing card or an invitation to get near their offices or other critical rooms. But unlike, for instance, the White House or 10 Downing Street, key government and parliament houses in Scandinavia do house press briefings and conferences of a semi-open kind sometimes - at the White House, the President only makes press appearances outside the house, on the lawn and in the rose garden, but rarely actually inside the main building, isn't that how it is? In Stockholm, the house of parliament is the scene sometimes for NGO conferences and so on  and the key government complexes house press briefings where I guess it might be possible to infiltrate if you were really committed to doing it (with forged press documents and so on).

We do like openness and sometimes that translates into a lowered security hand on everyday terms. Politicians and ministers make speeches, interviews and visits without being surrounded by a heavy police cordon at all times - though the top brass mostly have bodyguards at hand these days. There has been little reason to assume that the king or government ministers would be under a constant risk of attack - I still don't think there is, though bodyguards and a security code are needed of course, and those are deployed.

[gaggedLouise]

One thing I'd like to know is whether the killer/s at Utöya (there may have been more than one shooter) were deliberately trying to pick people out who were not ethnically Norwegian. There would have been some number of young people from immigrant backgrounds at this summer camp, and the man that's been arrested has voiced his disgust in the past (on Facebook, discussion fora and so on) at the welcoming attitude of the Norwegian government, public institutions and mainstream Norway towards immigrants, in particular Muslims (surprise!). At a right-wing political forum he made a garish quip about former Norwegian PM Gro Harlem Brundtland, mixing "mother of the nation" and "murderer of the nation", due to her stand against racism, in Norway and beyond, and against putting up ethnical barriers.

[Xenophile]

Having seen the latest updates, I cannot truly explain the emotions that I feel. Yesterday when I first heard of it,and saw the feed of the streets filled with debri and the buildings burning. Then I was shocked, distraught, and emotionally wrecked. It took some time to take it in and accept what had happened. I didn't think it would change, that the casualties would increase, and at the end, I didn't know what to think about the madman at Utoya.

Now I see the latest updates, and the casualties at Utoya alone counts to at least 84. The man called for the youths to his attention, then gunned them down with an automatic weapon. He is described as a Norwegian nationalist and "Islam-Hostile" in the media, who "argues between nationalism and internationalism online". I could not imagine that a single individual could perform all this. Detonate a bomb in the political headquarters of Norway, after having purchased three metric tons of fertilizer which is assumed to have been used in the construction of the explosive device.

I do not know what else to say, other than to share my speculations and suspicions. That is what I would have done if this act of terror had been done elsewhere and not in a fellow Scandinavian country, and I will not dignify this cowardly act with any change to my normal routine.

I do not believe that this attack on Utoya is driven by any intentions of selecting his victims by any ethnic standards. This was a Labour-Youth meeting, and the Labour party is the current party that leads the nation at the moment. This is an attack against a political doctrine and an indirect attack against the government itself, and possibly directly as the Prime Minister was going to attend that meeting that day. One man, for some reason, has declared a one-man war against the establishment. But the man lost the war before it even started. It wasn't lost when he was caught by the police. It was last the moment he used terrorism as a weapon in his war, because the Norwegian people cannot be defeated with terror.

And all he has done is to bereave the lives of nearly, and if not even more than, 90 innocent people. All he has done to himself is to create a hatred and loathing to his own political fringe, and he has become the most hated Norwegian in Norway since Quisling from the days when Norwegians collaborated with the Nazi occupiers of WW2.

[Hemingway]

Because really, anyone who places more security on a painting than their heads of state combined need to have their heads checked. That very act alone disturbed me to the core and made me wonder what other misplaced priorities the Norwegians had.

I don't know how to respond to this, frankly. I can't speak for all Norwegians, but I do know that I would rather live in a free society, than one that aims to stay safe by turning into an Orwellian police state. Because, as Louise pointed out, there's a difference between the security in the street outside the government building - a perfectly normal street I've walked many times - and the building itself. If you're going to start checking every car that parks there, then where does it end?

Like I already pointed out, most the casualties were at Utøya, a summer camp for teens, where any sort of massive security just wouldn't make sense. I mean, it's terror in its truest form.

It's not, I think, that Norway and Norwegians have a lax attitude toward security. It's an attitude toward, well, the world as a whole. I don't know how true it is that Norway is this global ambassador of peace and goodness, but that is the image the country tries to present to the world.

[Alsheriam]

I'll have to point out once more that the Orwellian police state is not what I was thinking of. As a former part of the security apparatus and now as a civilian, I know both sides of the coin and I'm aware of what's sufficient and what's just retarded overkill.

While I do not think that it's practical to deploy security guards at an island like Utoya, I still think that the security services could have ramped up efforts at trying to find people with probable nutjob ideologies and intents and kept a close eye on them before they tried anything stupid.

Because really, the moment a perp manages to prepare his resources for the plan and goes forward to execute it, it's half the battle lost. The active security efforts like metal detectors and what not are mainly bunk, and are not there to really actively detect threats: they are there to serve as deterrents and obstacles for any potential plan.

I will give this particular case the benefit of the doubt because nobody saw this coming. Everybody who purportedly knew him claimed that he could hardly hurt a fly, but one can always hope that the Scandinavians make an effort to kick up their vigilance a notch and don't just stare at the Muslims and potential jihadists.

P.S. This sort of white power hate groups are not exclusive to Europe. As far as I can observe, white power groups are far more prevalent in the US, especially in the South with all these so-called well-regulated Christian militias. US security services would do well to take a long, hard look at them before they get any funny thoughts about honoring their compatriot in Norway.

[gaggedLouise]

I'll have to point out once more that the Orwellian police state is not what I was thinking of. As a former part of the security apparatus and now as a civilian, I know both sides of the coin and I'm aware of what's sufficient and what's just retarded overkill.

While I do not think that it's practical to deploy security guards at an island like Utoya, I still think that the security services could have ramped up efforts at trying to find people with probable nutjob ideologies and intents and kept a close eye on them before they tried anything stupid.

Because really, the moment a perp manages to prepare his resources for the plan and goes forward to execute it, it's half the battle lost. The active security efforts like metal detectors and what not are mainly bunk, and are not there to really actively detect threats: they are there to serve as deterrents and obstacles for any potential plan.

I will give this particular case the benefit of the doubt because nobody saw this coming. Everybody who purportedly knew him claimed that he could hardly hurt a fly, but one can always hope that the Scandinavians make an effort to kick up their vigilance a notch and don't just stare at the Muslims and potential jihadists.

But actually for the police or secret service, finding and keeping an eye on every single one who might be dallying with outrageous ideas and voicing hatred of the government, of immigrants, or of some other sensitive matter - let's say someone is brazenly criticizing a foreign government which his country is in alliance with and which might send VIP guests, researchers or military personnel to his country - to keep up a guard that strong is an orwellian goal in an information age such as ours., An age when people are freely exchanging ideas, travelling, communicating and talking all over the place, even with folks whose r/l identity they know nothing about. Keeping track of those people on a running basis - enough to stop them if the police would glimpse what could be a smoking gun in advance - would take a surveillance machine of a size that most of us absolutely do not want.

A branch of the German secret service (who have a special interest in political extremism even outside of Germany) estimated that Norway has about 25.000 "radical nationalists", people strongly committed to an idea of national and racial purity in Norway. About 6.000 of those are neo-Nazis (of course, the Norwegian police agencies keep track of developments too, I just happened to have the figures from Berlin at hand). Not a high rate actually, set against the population; Norway has five million people. The man arrested as a prime suspect in Norway is of the first kind - he's not actually a Nazi, it seems, more of an angry, vituperant conservative "nordic patriot". Whether he's a full-blown racist will turn out a matter of definition I believe. But it's not as if all those 25.000 people would ever be ready to walk into the street and fire away with a machine gun or engineer a bomb at the government's door. Most of them would never be able to carry out such acts, especially not on their own, and their ideas as such is not enough of a reason to put them behind bars, no matter how ugly they may be.

If there's someone around who is enough of a nutjob but intelligent and knowledgeable then he will be able to do this kind of thing. The FBI didn't manage to track down and stop the man who fired at Gabrielle Giffords and others at a low-level political event in January, though he had voiced his personal venom towards her - and also against President Bush at the time GWB was still in office - and though the level of threats surrounding Ms Giffords was much higher than with the Norwegian labour party and government. It's just the same problem; neither political people nor the public want a security cordon at all times and a supermarket or a youth camp - or, let's say, a railway station - are not high-risk locations you can single out in advance.

[gaggedLouise]

***Update***

Mr.Breivik has confessed he was the killer. Shortly before the killings he also found the time to put up a video on Youtube, outlining his "manifesto" of combat against the islamist/multiculturalist/Marxist plot strangling Europe ever since 1945, and especially since the sixties. The video is a kind of trailer for a sort of Mein Kampf book which he had been writing on for the past ten years; he'd e-mailed the script to a few other ultra-nationalists around the Nordic countries just before he went off to do his deed. These people deny knowing him or having encouraged him.

The video was taken down after the terror acts but has now been reposted for public knowledge. I don't wish to make a link here but you can find it by searching for "Knights Templar 2083" on Youtube.

[Amelita]

I'd like to add a comment of condolences to Norwegians and other fellow Scandinavians on E and everywhere. The news have been terrible to watch and the count of dead is alarmingly high for anything of this sort in our part of the world.