Book Banning

[Vandren]

Latest case of stupidity:

Cross-posted from Gwinnett Daily Post, Georgia

Board to consider request to ban 'Harry Potter' books

04/14/2006 -
By Rubina Madan
Staff Writer

LAWRENCEVILLE - The "Harry Potter" book series may soon be taken off theshelves of all media centers in Gwinnett County Public Schools if a parent'sappeal is successful. A parent of students at J.C. Magill Elementary School filed appeal forms foreach of the books, requesting the wildly popular series be removed frompublic school libraries. On the forms, she wrote that she objected to the series' "evil themes, witchcraft, demonic activity, murder, evil blood sacrifice, spells and teaching children all of this." She wrote she had not read the series because it is long, and she is a working mother of four.  A public hearing will be held on the matter at 2 p.m. Thursday, in accordance with the Gwinnett County Board of Education's policies for "Instructional Materials Selection." An appointed hearing officer will  hear  testimony from the parent, school system officials and concerned  residents.

Both the local school and system media committees have recommended the books remain on the shelves.
Based on all the testimony, the hearing officer will prepare findings and recommendations to the Board of Education. The final decision will be made by the school board within a few weeks of the hearing. Any Gwinnett County resident who wishes to speak at the hearing will be able to do so by submitting a written request. Requests may be mailed to the Superintendent's Office, Gwinnett County Public Schools, 437 Old Peachtree Road N.W, Suwanee, GA 30024, or may be faxed to 678-301-6030. All written requests must be submitted no later than 48 hours before the hearing.

[Hunter]

I'm surprised this hasn't popped up sooner.  And I expect that she'll win (because I think that she's correct).

[Ariabella]

I think it's happened before somewhere. The shame is, they should be happy that their children are being encouraged to read. And of course, over all it teaches that Harry and his friends choose good over evil and all of that.

Bet she took her kids to the movies though.

Her one downfall might be her admittal that she hadn't read the books.

[Hunter]

I understand her perspective.  To her (and many parents), it's like handing their kids the satanic bible.  It's not necessarily ignorance (I know of some well educated people who hate the entire series for similar reasons, including people who specialize in occultic crime) but a difference in world view.

[Ariabella]

Hmm, well admittedly, I turned off the first movie when they  were finding out about the unicorns that were killed, I can understand that too. I guess it's just my personal view, I'd rather my kids read something like that that is fantasy, rather than get their hands on something that can teach them to build a bomb with fertilizer or something like that.

[Vandren]

I'm surprised this hasn't popped up sooner.  And I expect that she'll win.

It's popped up hundreds of times.  However, this case I doubt she'll win, thanks to sheer ignorance and the public hearing.

(because she's technically correct)

How do you figure?

1) evil themes - Ok, Voldemort, sure.  Malfoys, sure.  But that's . . . hmm . . . 10-25% or te "on-stage" parts of the books, and ignores the other 75-90% of the books which actually teach "good Christian" values - love, friendship, loyalty, etc.

2) witchcraft - That's a laugh.  And based solely on ignorance.

3) demonic activity - Haven't seen any of that in six books so far.

4) murder - Alright, yep, this one's in there . . . in the books targetting a 14-16 year old audience . . .

5) evil blood sacrifice - Alright, once.

6) spells and teaching children - Please . . . waving a wand and spouting pseudo-Latin's got as much to do with "spells" and "teaching children" magic as walking across the street.

[tcost]

Button Gwinnett, whose vote was indispensible for passing the Declaration of Independence, might have some interesting things to say about banning books and the themes of the Harry Potter books in general.  But, of course, he won't be at the hearing of the Gwinnett County Public School Board.

When you come right down to it, the Potter books are about overcoming prejudice and ignorance.  I hope that that truth makes it into the debate.

What one county school board decides will not win or lose the ongoing battle that this argument represents.  But if and when it comes to your town, to your county, it behooves us all to make our voices heard.  And you can count on it that this argument will be coming soon to a council chamber near you.

[Vandren]

When you come right down to it, the Potter books are about overcoming prejudice and ignorance.  I hope that that truth makes it into the debate.

Exactly what I spent multiple days discussing when I last taught Azkaban.  :)

[Hunter]

I'm not going to debate it with you (because I happen to agree with the woman trying to get the books banned).

[Zakharra]

I'm not going to debate it with you (because I happen to agree with the woman trying to get the books banned).

   :o

[Violet Maui]

Can't we all just get along? X_x;;; Males, sheesh.

[tcost]

I'm not going to debate it with you (because I happen to agree with the woman trying to get the books banned).

Gosh -- what can I possibly say to that?

Hunter, if you support this woman, you should realize that saying so is apt to be like waving a red flag in front of a bull in a place like this.  Not only are the people here apt to be hostile to banning books in general, a significant number are probably friends of witchcraft.

For my own part -- and I'm not asking you for a response here, Hunter, just stating more clearly than I may have earlier my own opinion -- I think that most youngsters, even earlier than their teens, will be benefitted much more than harmed by the Potter books.  And that if any books at all are to be banned (which is a position I take only with a bad taste in my mouth), we'd do better by banning books which glorify war rather than those that might be seen as encouraging witchcraft.

[Hunter]

Like I said, I'm not going to debate it.  Does it surprise people that much that there are people that might agree with someone other than the majority of what is expressed here?

I'm not one for banning books in general.

[tcost]

Like I said, I'm not going to debate it.  Does it surprise people that much that there are people that might agree with someone other than the majority of what is expressed here?

I'm not one for banning books in general.

No, I'm not surprised at someone being politically incorrect.  The United States is supposed to be a free country (which is of course one of the most important reasons why I disagree with you about this).  Part of that liberty includes a usually unspoken perogative to be inconsistent -- especially in an instance like this when the inconsistency is a matter of perspective. 

On the other hand, as far as it goes, I am somewhat surprised that there is anyone here who would support this proposition.  But while I disagree with you, I defend your right to your opinion.

[Elvi]

It's the responcibility of every parent to ensure that their opinions and morals are handed down to their children, whether others see them as right or wrong.
It is not the right for every parent to insist that everything they see as 'bad' to be banned.

If this woman feels that these books are not suitable for her children, then it is up to her to make sure her children don't read them, not to insist that everyone elses don't.

These books have inspired a child who was afraid of reading, because she has dyslexia, to stick her nose in a book and finnish it then want to read more. They have inspired discussion on issues in those books, that have reflected into real life and also about commercialism,  the film industry, the dangers of writers becoming stail, sexuality and many others things.

These books and others have made my daughter want to read, talk to us and use her imagination.
That is not a bad thing, that is a good thing.
I have many books in my collection that she is beginning to dip into, some I have said that she needs to wait for a while to read, others I have said go ahead, see what you think.

If (and I very much doubt it in this country) these books, or any others that I feel could inspire my daughter and widen her horizen, were banned, I would simply buy them on the 'black market', or just a book shop, were they not available to her from libruaries.

 

[Max]

The "Harry Potter" book series may soon be taken off theshelves of all media centers in Gwinnett County Public Schools if a parent'sappeal is successful.

If I am understanding that part correctly, the books would be removed from the school's libraries, but would still be available in the public libraries.  I have never read the books, and doubt I ever will.  And would still be available at book shops, amazon.com, and such for purchase.  I think it is wrong, but, there has to be a limit of what is available.  What is allowed in the schools?  Harry Potter, the Anarchist Cookbook, Mein Kamph? 

I remember my high school library had the last book.  Even checked it out, but never did read it.  Do we ban that?  How about Karl Marx?  If we don't, what do we allow in the public school libraries.  I think it is something that needs to be thought over.  Just how much do we allow into the schools?  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Mein Kamph banned in Germany? 

I don't think banning the Harry Potter books is a good idea.  But, some books should be.  I just think we all need to decide which ones to ban.  Hope we can decide which ones without too much animonsity.

Oh, and sorry if I got the spelling of Hitler's book wrong.

[ZK]

I live in GA and it just keeps getting stranger and stranger. O.o

[Lilac]

I understand her perspective.  To her (and many parents), it's like handing their kids the satanic bible.  It's not necessarily ignorance (I know of some well educated people who hate the entire series for similar reasons, including people who specialize in occultic crime) but a difference in world view.

...'occultic crime'?

[ZK]

A stab at Paganism I suppose, I could be wrong. Mainly that of Wicca and various other religions. I don't care to see this turn into a religious debate either.

Note: Since Wicca and basic Paganism tends to be lumped together in with the Occult as a whole.

As well, could also be a pessimistic view upon those who believe in the supernatural as a whole, I don't know, let Hunter clarify things.

[Elvi]

I have copies of those  books Max, Mein Kampf is a very interesting read.
We also watched a doccumentary series on the Hitler youth and how the children of Germany were indoctrinated.
Funnily enough it was the Beast girl, (10 year old daughter), who initiated it's watching and we watched it with her, then discussed it, sothat she could form her own oppinions about how it was done.
We also have other political books here, if she wants to read them, when she is old enough to do so, then she is welcome to and we will discuss that with her.

[Max]

We also have other political books here, if she wants to read them, when she is old enough to do so, then she is welcome to and we will discuss that with her.

And who decides that she is old enough?  Don't get me wrong, she seems very smart.  But other kids... aren't.  And anyway, to get back to my point, who decides?   The parents?  The school?  Should certain books be kept out of the hands and minds of young people. 

I don't think banning most books is a good idea.  Mein Kamph, yes.  Harry Potter, no.  I think the parents should know what their kids are reading.  The lady in question doesn't, but at least she seems to be trying to keep harmful books (at least to her very limited understanding) away from her kids.  Many parents might not be bothered to try.  And that is as scary to me than some wacko trying to ban the Harry Potter books.

[Elvi]

If it is an educational matter, then when the children reach the age where they are being educated about that subject.
If it is a parental matter, when the parents decide that their child is old enough to come to the right conclusions about the content of that book.

Funnily enough, Beast girl has just got up and she started talking about a book she is reading at the moment. (It's just past 08:00am here)
I told her about this discussion.
Her take on it?
She sits down and watches the news, there are real things going on like murders, bombings, wars, starvation and all the other bad stuff in the world and this lady wants to ban a fairy tale?

[Hunter]

...'occultic crime'?

http://www.holysmoke.org/report/25.htm

[Lilac]

http://www.holysmoke.org/report/25.htm

So, these people, in their wisdom, take crimes committed by what are likely mentally ill individuals and, instead, classify it under 'occult' because it incorporates some belief that they are not familiar with?

Anyway, Hunter...

I'm not going to debate it with you (because I happen to agree with the woman trying to get the books banned).

...You said she was technically correct in your first post.  I do not, particularly, care if you hold one view or another, but if you are going to state something like that, either give reasons or concede the point.  Sentences like these are inflammatory "Here, I forced my statement down your throat but I'm not going to bother paying attention to yours."

[Elvi]

I'm surprised this hasn't popped up sooner.  And I expect that she'll win (because I think that she's correct).

So, I believe the change is from she is correct to I think she is correct?

That still does not validate your arguement, nor does it cover the point that Lilac raised about you adding nothing to a discussion other than a blank comment.
Leaving us unable to confirm nor deny that your point of view is right/wrong/or you are talking out of your behind.

[Hunter]

I wasn't really planning on validating my argument but if you insist....

"In 2001, PBS aired a documentary on the J.K. Rowlings phenomenon. This special was quite unbiased and extremely revealing. The docudrama pointed out many of the pagan and real occult parallels in the books. They also interviewed witches to validate the fact that the information contained in the stories is more than just fantasy. (PBS is not part of the religious right)"

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/harry_potter_and_the_occult.html

[Lilac]

Thank you, though the site you linked to does not mention many specifics.  Most of us here are quite well aware, at least peripherally, of the neopagan movements and that yes, J.K. Rowling drew inspiration from them and their inspirations, just like J.R.R. Tolkein drew from myth.

"evil themes, demonic activity, murder, evil blood sacrifice, and teaching children all of this."

Is what the majority of us see to be absurd.  Not that witchcraft or spells are a part of it (which they obviously are).

Personally, I think she's a bit loopy for believing in spells and witchcraft, but that's another point.

[Elvi]

However, you are again, not giving us your opinion Hunter, but a direct quote from an internet site from some-one elses opinion.

I am sure, should I decide to spend the time, find several other none Christian religious sites that debunk the whole of what has been said on that one.
Infact, if I wished to, I could probably find the statement made by the Archbishop Of Durham, on that subject where he said it was absolute nonsense to look at books such as Harry Potter as evil and coruptive and that they were mere modern day fairy tales there to expand a child's imagination and perhaps give them the thrill of being a little frightened.

He also pointed out the fact that the bible with it's smiting, stoning, raping and drowning, casting out evil spirits and crucifictions, if looked at in the same context, would be far more horrifying to a child than fiction such as Harry Potter, because, after all, the bible is seen, by several religions as fact.

[Hunter]

However, you are again, not giving us your opinion Hunter, but a direct quote from an internet site from some-one elses opinion.

I gave my opinion on the very first page of the topic (see below).  As for the site that I quoted, I was apparently being called to defend my position (I took your post to be a very hostile one) and so therefore I supplied the logic behind my thinking.

I'm not going to debate it with you (because I happen to agree with the woman trying to get the books banned).

[Elvi]

So, I believe the change is from she is correct to I think she is correct?

That still does not validate your arguement, nor does it cover the point that Lilac raised about you adding nothing to a discussion other than a blank comment.
Leaving us unable to confirm nor deny that your point of view is right/wrong/or you are talking out of your behind.

You see this as hostile Hunter?
If this is the post that you are speaking of, then I apologise, it was not intended to be so.

[Ariabella]

He also pointed out the fact that the bible with it's smiting, stoning, raping and drowning, casting out evil spirits and crucifictions, if looked at in the same context, would be far more horrifying to a child than fiction such as Harry Potter, because, after all, the bible is seen, by several religions as fact.

And speaking as one who had nightmares every time she tried to read fairy tales as a child, I can actually back that up. But my point is, and has been mentioned numerous times, this is a fantasy tale which encourages children to read, which I applaud. I haven't read them yet, like Max, and I probably never will, due to time constraints and their length. But every fairy tale and fantasy story over time has incorporated many of the same topics. Anything Tolkien, which was actually based in Christianity, Grimm's Fairy Tales and numerous children books that I read over the years.

Harry Potter is not intended for the very young, as was pointed out. Quite frankly, I'd rather the children read a tale that teaches the children about the wrongs of prejudicism and things like that, then as tcost said, glorifying war, building bombs and stuff like that.

[Natalie C. Barney]

It's popped up hundreds of times.  However, this case I doubt she'll win, thanks to sheer ignorance and the public hearing.

How do you figure?

1) evil themes - Ok, Voldemort, sure.  Malfoys, sure.  But that's . . . hmm . . . 10-25% or te "on-stage" parts of the books, and ignores the other 75-90% of the books which actually teach "good Christian" values - love, friendship, loyalty, etc.  [Magick to many Judeo-Christian based churches and other faiths is EVIL, its a matter of placement in Lord of the Rings the magic is clearly in a fictional worldview. They are put off this takes place in the real world.]

2) witchcraft - That's a laugh.  And based solely on ignorance. [Ditto Witchcraft is still seen as demonic in many Christian and other traditions just becasue a good portion proclaim to use white magic does not mean they see it as a good source giving that power.]

3) demonic activity - Haven't seen any of that in six books so far. [Hello the witches and wizards cast spells, commune with spirits, get their source from a power not of God that to many makes this demonic.]

4) murder - Alright, yep, this one's in there . . . in the books targetting a 14-16 year old audience . . . [Actually two murders the caretaker at the start of the Goblet of Fire and at the end of the Golblet of Fire plus Harry's parents.]

5) evil blood sacrifice - Alright, once. [Once is true.]

6) spells and teaching children - Please . . . waving a wand and spouting pseudo-Latin's got as much to do with "spells" and "teaching children" magic as walking across the street. [The fact they are practicing magic is enough here.]

Simply put think of it this way Lord of the Rings had magic but the world was fictional, the magic was low key compared to Harry Potter and used mainly in defense by the good guys and the movie was laced with Christian images the Eagles, they Talked about heaven in a way suited to the movie the white shores speech by Gandalf and all the same elements you mentioned of Harry Potter in number one above. They don't seem as offended by the idea so much as location in the real world and that not once do any of the witches or wizards talk about religion. That is what I don't like why aren't any Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Confusionist it seems the writer is biased against people of faith. I have the same concerns with Star Trek the only religious themes were is the DS9 series that were seriously covered and hinted at elsewhere. Not that I'm heavily religious being a Secular Humanist leaning to agnosticism but even I tend to be offended when a large natural element in a world is left out like religious belief.

Most of you read the books does any major igure show up and is a practicing Anglican or a practicing of any religion?

[Vandren]

They don't seem as offended by the idea so much as location in the real world and that not once do any of the witches or wizards talk about religion. That is what I don't like why aren't any Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Confusionist it seems the writer is biased against people of faith.

And why should she have to?  The purpose of writing fiction is to entertain, not to teach or push a given set of values.  For Rowling's purpose in writing - discussing racism, genocide, love, loyalty, friendships, etc. religion isn't necessary.  However, for those who want to find it, it's there.  Likewise, why should a secular governemtn bow to the whims of a Christian who gets offended by a book (s)he has never read?

Most of you read the books does any major igure show up and is a practicing Anglican or a practicing of any religion?

See above.  And, as a Tolkien scholar, there's no overt religion in the entirety of the LotR book(s).  As with Rowling, if you want to see religion in it, that's fine, but you're putting that interpretation there yourself.  Anyone can easily do the same thing with Rowling's work.  On that level, there's no difference.  But, as noted above, why should an author have to espose a religious belief in his/her writing?  Especially if it's not important to the story?

It's the responcibility of every parent to ensure that their opinions and morals are handed down to their children, whether others see them as right or wrong.
It is not the right for every parent to insist that everything they see as 'bad' to be banned.

If this woman feels that these books are not suitable for her children, then it is up to her to make sure her children don't read them, not to insist that everyone elses don't.

Bingo.  Too many parents, especially in the U.S., want to have children then have their TV, librarians, or someone else raise the kids so they don't have to.  In the process, they seem to feel that it's perfectly alright to trample the civil liberties of everyone else around them.

If I am understanding that part correctly, the books would be removed from the school's libraries, but would still be available in the public libraries.

Yep, that's my understanding.  And, it would be alright to remove them if they weren't age appropriate - say if they were written for a high school audience and were appearing in a elementary school library.  That's one thing.  But total removal . . .

But, some books should be.  I just think we all need to decide which ones to ban.

Definite problem.  Yes, Mein Kampf is banned in Germany, it's illegal to own a copy.  And their reasoning is understandable.  However, that also means that their students, adults, etc. are missing out on an important part of their national history.  True, it's a rather nasty part (like the slaughter of Native Americans in the U.S., America's eugenics program/forced sterilization in the 1930s, Japanese-american internment camps in the 1940s and the Armenian genocide in Turkey), but that makes it even more important to learn from.

The lady in question doesn't, but at least she seems to be trying to keep harmful books (at least to her very limited understanding) away from her kids.  Many parents might not be bothered to try.

Which she has the right to do . . . however, she doesn't have the right to tell anyone else's children what books they can check out from the library (any library).  That, for me, is the big issue.

[ZK]

I agree with you whole heartidly on that, Vandren.

[Vandren]

Just looked over that holysmoke site . . . several dozen Christian and Muslim sects apparently commit "occult crime" every day, according to their vague definition (or lack thereof).

And looked at the inplainsite page.  Most of what they point out as "occult" comes from Rowling's background in Classical Studies.  The rest appears to be typically contradictory . . . according to Christian doctrine, spirits/ghosts don't exist (nor to demons), but demonic possession apparently does . . .  Much of what's left is a bit of a stretch at best.  And misunderstanding - calling the owls, cats, rats, etc. familiars, for instance, when they plainly aren't (can't buy a familiar and these are simply trained animals anyway).  The random quotes with no discussion of their importance is also a classic sign of a poor argument/writer as well.  And their take on the first book's title blatantly ignroes the fact that medieval, Renaissance, and Enlightenment "philisophers" were nearly all devout Christians, calling upon saints, angels, and the Seal of Solomon for their work.

Likewise, referring to "all spirits" are evil entities is blatantly hypocritical.  Afterall, what are saints and angels but spirits . . .

Side note to Natalie . . . who says that magic in Rowling's world doesn't come from a divine source?  She's never stated anything one way or the other, and given that it's a genetic ability, one could easily argue that "God" created wizards and witches in the world - then free will kicks in to determine how the indivdual uses that gift.

[Vandren]

To quote a friend on the listserv that initial post showed up on:

Yeah.  You see, these books are the reason why we should only study the
classics:  they teach children such a high moral sense of values!  Classical moral values! 

HAMLET (men should kill brothers, marry wives, nephews should kill uncles,and almost everybody should die)

MACBETH (witches! Murder! Killing children! Killing presidents oops Kings!)

MEDEA (mothers should kill children, yay!, no doubt the classics are the reasons for the number of mothers in Texas who kill children)

And finally, THE BIBLE (all those enlightening stories where people kill people, and God kills lots of people too yay--children, never laugh at bald prophets or ELSE).  (collects large pile of stones).  P.S. it's only the OLD Testament which counts, and God totally dictated it.

Oops.  Obviously reading anything is terribly dangerous and we should all just sit down and watch reality TV.

[Celestial Goblin]

Meh, HP might encourage a kid to try 'magic', but it likely won't work anyway, so what's to worry?
I think it's simpy the woman's intolerance to things associated with 'pagan' and 'new age' beliefs that for example Wicca people have in their religion. I'm sure she'll dislike the 'One Thousand Night Tales' if it was a bestseller too, after all Islam is also a different religion.
Myself, i remember trying to worship greek Olympian gods when i was like, 6 or 7, cause i really loved greek mythology, but really hated having to go to the church every sunday. It lasted like a day or two, and Athena didn't help me with my homework. I drawn an altar for Zeus sakes! And an amphore or something.
Anyway, if the woman thinks HP is a book that describes occult beliefs, okay. But who says those beliefs are inferior to hers? Christians were called a 'weird and dangerous cult' when they were a young religion too.

[Hunter]

(Last post on the topic by myself and I stand by my opinion.  By quoting the article below, I am drawing on a source that definitely isn't a member of the 'religious right'.  The article author claims to both be an active practicer of witchcraft and a fan of the harry potter series.)
   
http://www6.aeonflux.net/~io/index2.html

"Real Witchcraft? in Harry Potter?
Yes. J.K. Rowling has done her homework. Her hidden references are so numerous, and her knowledge so deep, that I'm certain she has done much research on the subject of real sorcery. Many of her characters are named after famous occultists of the past, many of her fantastic spells actually exist, and her magical creatures are straight out of ancient mythology.
She is writing about the same witchcraft that I study at home, far away from Hogwarts! You see, I'm one of the few people who actually know how to use flying broomsticks and magic mirrors, wart potions and magic wands. Apparently, so does she. I recognise much of J. K. Rowling's work from Middle Age grimoires I've read."

[Vandren]

(Last post on the topic by myself and I stand by my opinion.  By quoting the article below, I am drawing on a source that definitely isn't a member of the 'religious right'.  The article author claims to both be an active practicer of witchcraft and a fan of the harry potter series.)
   
http://www6.aeonflux.net/~io/index2.html

Oh!  This wacko!  I think this is the same person who's been trying to get the British government to issue him a license to fly his broom for over a decade now.  Also claimed that the people in the movies were flying their's the wrong way because they put the bristles in the back.  With a few exceptions, all the pagans and Wiccans I know think he's an utter looney and a disgrace to their faith.

And I see that this person's not actually provided citation info for the supposed sources of the information.  Sorry, not buying it.

On a second read, this isn't the same person.  However I'd still not take anything on the site seriously as the site author states: "Any information given on this website is intended . . . for entertainment value only."  (I editted out the "historical" part, due to questionable veracity.)  Alright, two things get cited (from the same author), though no translator is noted . . . and given the titles both works were written in Latin . . . though at least one of the books actually exists.

Once again, no one is denying that Rowling draws upon classical and medieval sources.  However, the idea that a child reading the books can "learn" to be a witch and cast spells and whatnot it utterly preposterous - about as likely as doing the same by watching Charmed.

[Elvi]

Again Hunter, what is your opinion and why?
You are giving us other peoples opinions not your own.

I am an athiest, I do not believe in God, yet my daughter had MY copy of the bible (infact two, one the childrens bible that I had as a child), she wants to go to church, I myself will not go, but if she insists I will arrange for her to go with someone that I know, a very good friend of the family.

I am very very against religion, some more than others and christianity is at the top of the list, but because she enjoys reading the bible, calls herself a christian and reads/sings christian songs I am not going to dissown her.
So.......why should the opposite apply?

[Natalie C. Barney]

Well I have to disagree with one point any writing is influential and thereby its important for a writer to use a certain decorum in how they treat his or her material. Even a work of fiction can hold great authority and influence on the mind and on the morals. Harry Potter is widely read and therefore has power especially over impressionable minds of the young. Now I for one think a writer has a solemn power- such as a film maker can influence the masses and a news reporter has the obligation to seek the truth and report it. Now it was mentioned Lord of the Rings never mentioned religion. It is true there were no churches BUT its clear that Gandalf and others acting in accord with a higher power of light. Elven magic was drawn from the fires of the Eldar. Gandalf returned with the express purpose of fighting evil in humanities last stand after passing beyond this viel to the next world.  Even Gollum had his part to play and there was a "power beyond" guiding fate. Plus it was set in a fictional world not the real one where Harry Potter is superimposed upon so there is a difference. In our world religion is a major force with organized sects.

That is the crux I studied the occult religions including Satanism (traditional and Lavey) and much of what is in the movie has strong ties to the Left Hand Path traditions. The power of the individual over the world, looking down on other without such gifts, summoning monsters, casting curses, dark rituals and shapechanging not to mention its all done devoid of a faith. So I can see why Christian parents would see this as a threat.

I just pointed out their views here but like I said having these witches and wizards not even acknowledge among some characters they are religious seems downright arrogant of the author and overlooks an important factor in the real world. And the world of Harry Potter has ties to the real world deeper than any other novel.

As for the classics many of those works are strictly meant for adults and not meant for younger people a better comparison would be the Oz series another fine series and the Narnia series written by a Christian and with many fantasy elements.

[Lilac]

I am an athiest, I do not believe in God, yet my daughter had MY copy of the bible (infact two, one the childrens bible that I had as a child), she wants to go to church, I myself will not go, but if she insists I will arrange for her to go with someone that I know, a very good friend of the family.

I am very very against religion, some more than others and christianity is at the top of the list, but because she enjoys reading the bible, calls herself a christian and reads/sings christian songs I am not going to dissown her.
So.......why should the opposite apply?

While that's very tolerant of you, might I suggest also introducing her to Unitarianism and Gnosticism?  I still find the latter in particular to be especially fascinating. ^_^

You should, at least, see to it that she understands a bit of the history of how Christianity came to be.  And, perhaps, take a look at a few other faiths.

[Lilac]

Well I have to disagree with one point any writing is influential and thereby its important for a writer to use a certain decorum in how they treat his or her material. Even a work of fiction can hold great authority and influence on the mind and on the morals. Harry Potter is widely read and therefore has power especially over impressionable minds of the young. Now I for one think a writer has a solemn power- such as a film maker can influence the masses and a news reporter has the obligation to seek the truth and report it. Now it was mentioned Lord of the Rings never mentioned religion. It is true there were no churches BUT its clear that Gandalf and others acting in accord with a higher power of light. Elven magic was drawn from the fires of the Eldar. Gandalf returned with the express purpose of fighting evil in humanities last stand after passing beyond this viel to the next world.  Even Gollum had his part to play and there was a "power beyond" guiding fate. Plus it was set in a fictional world not the real one where Harry Potter is superimposed upon so there is a difference. In our world religion is a major force with organized sects.

The Lord of the Rings was set in our world.  Middle Earth is the Mediterranean, and Tolkien said so himself.  Tolkein was very specific in eliminating direct religious references from his work, keeping it clear of any given religion.  He had a lot of conflict with C.S. Lewis (I still believe the man to be an athiest, just milking Christians for their money) about this point.

That is the crux I studied the occult religions including Satanism (traditional and Lavey) and much of what is in the movie has strong ties to the Left Hand Path traditions. The power of the individual over the world, looking down on other without such gifts, summoning monsters, casting curses, dark rituals and shapechanging not to mention its all done devoid of a faith. So I can see why Christian parents would see this as a threat.

Traditional Satanism?  Like those little guidebooks certain inquisitors wrote?

[Vandren]

Well I have to disagree with one point any writing is influential

Who are you disagreeing with?

and thereby its important for a writer to use a certain decorum in how they treat his or her material. Even a work of fiction can hold great authority and influence on the mind and on the morals.

Ah, ok, let's toss out Shakespeare (murder, incest, regicide), Chaucer (rape, incest, murder, anti-Semitism), the Bible (rape, murder, selling one's daughter into prostitution to save oneself), the Koran, etc. etc.  Their writers never considered such things.

Harry Potter is widely read and therefore has power especially over impressionable minds of the young.

Ah, yes, must protect those impressionable minds . . . thirty years ago, "weak minded" women were included in that.  Children can separate between fiction and reality as young as 3-4 years old.  Read some Vygotsky, Luria, and other developmental psychologists.

It is true there were no churches BUT its clear that Gandalf and others acting in accord with a higher power of light.

Really?  I've read the books at leasto nce a year for the last 16 years and nope, that's not especially clear.  In fact, he claims to be a servant of the Secret Fire (FotR, Ballantine 1965, 429).  But the Balrog also serves fire, so that says nothing, unless you choose to interpret it as religious.  Having read Tolkien's letters, only once does he refer to religion in even those.  And that was while writing to C.S. Lewis, there he claimed Gandalf as an angel.  But only there.

In our world religion is a major force with organized sects.

And your point is?  This says nothing.

That is the crux I studied the occult religions including Satanism (traditional and Lavey) and much of what is in the movie has strong ties to the Left Hand Path traditions.

Again, just your own interpretation . . . which is fine, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to intrepret it that way.  Nor that this was Rowling's intent.  Not that any of the Christians lambasting the books knows any of this.

I just pointed out their views here but like I said having these witches and wizards not even acknowledge among some characters they are religious seems downright arrogant of the author and overlooks an important factor in the real world. And the world of Harry Potter has ties to the real world deeper than any other novel.

Hmm . . . last I looked, Ed McBain, Richard Wright, Ken Kesey, William Golding, and Tim O'Brien (all writers of contemporary fiction) have characters killing people, stealing from people, and whatnot.  No mentions of religion in them either.  Once again, who says that an author has to include religion in their novels?  Seems pretty arrogant to be telling them that they have to, when it has nothing to do with their story.

As for the classics many of those works are strictly meant for adults and not meant for younger people a better comparison would be the Oz series another fine series and the Narnia series written by a Christian and with many fantasy elements.

Ah, yes.  Killing little old ladies, stealing, murder (all conducted by the hero[in]es, I might add), and other related themes.  Yep.  Uh huh.  Sure.  Those're better.  I might add that Hobbit was a children's book (initally reviewed by a 10 year old) and is focused on theft, lying, cheating, breaking out of prison after being lawfully convicted, and rebelling against the regime in power.

[Elvi]

Lilac, we actually, for a non religious household, have more discussions with her over religion and politics and how they intertwine, than I guess many religious homes.

She is brought up in a multicutural/national/religous enviroment.
She has my two bibles because they are the religious books that I had, my family are a mixture of catholic/church of england/babtist/methodist and contipestal.

Beast girl had her first brush with Budism when she was two months old, went until she was five to a Hindu day care centre and decided when she was seven that she really should be Jewish because she liked the men singing.

I will certainly attempt to discuss different religions/concepts with her and wiil suport her in a search for a religion she is happy with, if that is what she has the need to do.
I can open the doors, she has to walk through.

The only other thing I will add to this debate at the moment is:
C.S.Lewis "Fine upstanding christian....." *cough* *choke*

 

[Lilac]

Well that wasn't entirely my point.  I think anyone interested in Christianity should be familiar with Gnosticism.

Of all things, it was not rejected because they believed that Yahweh was evil, but because they allowed women to teach.  Clearly, that was absurd. >_>

Would have a few words to say about that...

[Hunter]

Again Hunter, what is your opinion and why?
You are giving us other peoples opinions not your own.

I've given my opinion several times.  You haven't been listening.  I've said several times that I agree with the woman trying to get the books removed from the public school.

[Kurtz webber]

I want the books replaced with something by a decent fantasy author but thats just coz i reckon the books are nowhere near as good as a lot of other ones i read and i am irritated at how popular they are comparitively :p

On a more serious note the whole courtcase is total crap by an ignorant women. If u wanted to stop kids learning 'evil' take away their games console first. 'tards...

Sorry to make my point a little more seriously:

People seem to think kids will just copy anything they see / read if that is the case then we have a trully massive problem and the solution is not trying desperatly to remove everything bad they can see. Thats impossible. If your afraid your kids will blindly copy anything they see and read then teach them to think.

To be honest its a vital ability for anyone: to be able to think over a subject and come to an informed decision on wheter its right or not. The specific situation is not too relevant.

[Elvi]

Well that wasn't entirely my point. I think anyone interested in Christianity should be familiar with Gnosticism.

Of all things, it was not rejected because they believed that Yahweh was evil, but because they allowed women to teach. Clearly, that was absurd. >_>

Would have a few words to say about that...

OOPS...Sorry Lilac, got side tracked there.....
There was supposed to be a mention of that in my post.
At the age of 10 life and religion is too confusing an issue to begin bringing in this sort of thing, I have trouble getting my head around it all myself.
(Though I did briefly explain what Gnostic was when she asked what an agnostic was)

[Ariabella]

To me, it's much like the whole bit with we shouldn't have this on tv, and you shouldn't listen to this music, becuase if you watch Looney Tunes, you'll jump off a cliff and if you listen to Judas Priest you'll want to commit suicide. I grew up on Looney Tunes and never once emulated Wile E. Coyote and I love Judas Priest, never once did I hear them tell me to kill myself.

Play a record backwards and hear the voice of Satan? Tried it, sounded like gobbldegook too me.

Point is, parents have the responsibility to teach their children right and wrong and to make the right choices. If everything you see/read/hear makes you act out, then there's a bigger problem.

Bottom line, children need their minds and imaginations engaged and with the loss of so much music and arts programs in school, why discourage their reading age appropriate material? If it's against your religion, so be it, don't allow your child to watch/read/listen. Don't deprive the other children of expanding their minds.

Reading takes the world to many places and worlds.

[monkeygirl]

I've been following this thread with interest, loving to hear the opinions of other and learning bits and pieces here and there that are new and interesting to me.  (i have to admit that my favorite fact doesn't have to do with the topic so much as that Elvi's daugter became interested in a religion mainly the men sang - which I consider not only valid, but better then many other reasons I've heard. :))

So, my turn to toss my hat into the ring.  Book banning.  Not only not a fan, but I consider it to be great crime.  Books are idea on paper and ideas are more precious then diamonds.  Even books that present bad idea, Mein Kampf being a good example, will get people to re-examine their own values and morals, shake them up a little, something we all need to do from time to time.  After all, we all evove on a daily basis and it's a good idea to take a look at our views as we, and the world around us, change.  Even the lightest of fiction contains idea.  Harry Potter cerainly has a world view of good and evil and how to go about one's life in the face of adversity.  

As has been said a number of times, if you don't want your children to read it, don't let them have it - BUT you better be prepared to sit down and discuss why in an intelligent manner, meaning you better have actually read the book and have some very strong ideas about why you feel it is wrong.  Just saying "Don't read it because I say so"...?  Well, That's about all I need to hear to send me off on a mission to read the book from cover to cover to find out why it's forbidden.  

Religion - talk about a sticky subject.  My own experiences - Raised Catholic and sent to catholic school (yes, i had the uniform for all of you curious - we had to wear our skirts a certain length and yes, we did push the limits as much as possible  ;D)  Became an atheist during HS - reason?  angry at god and my parents, so I figued that was the best way to rebel.  ;D - Took some classes in college in comparative religions that totally opened up my eyes.  Wow... Now, I just sort of practice non organized melting pot.  I take the concepts and beliefs that I like and discard the rest.  What I've found out is that every religion has something worthwhile... where they seem to fall apart for me is when people become involved and put their own spin on things...

A good example (and no, I'm not picking on Catholics and Christians - I actully think that Christ's teachings are beautiful) are the Catholic right who codemn people becuase they beliefs are different.  Those what whoud Jesus do bumber stickers?  I think he would come down, tear the sticker off, and tell the driver to get a clue (or bitch slap them, something I know he wouldn't do, but it's a favorite fantasy of mine ;D)

Oh, and please, this is all meant with the deepest respect for everyone's beliefs and religions - I know it's just a matter of a few bad apples making the others look bad - I have friend of all faiths and denominations, From Buddhist to Wiccan, and I would never dream of disparraging their faith.  

:)

PS. I don't know Cindy - I used to listen to Nine Inch Nails all the time and look how I turned out  ;)

[Ariabella]

Heeheheheheh...but I do like Nine Inch Nails too..and come to think of it...look where I've ended up *grin* But nothing as desperate as suicide or jumping off a cliff to play Wile E.

Heck, no one ever mentions all the kids who used to grab a blanket or tablecltoh, tie it on and go on the roof to jump off, pretending to be Superman.

I, like you, don't practice one religion, though while I do believe Christ's teachings, I may be bordering on Wicca just because of the hypocrisy in the church (at least here).  But I'm even to the point that I have found Shaolin teachings to be a very calming effect on me.

And the people who's defense for murder or war is God told me to? I don't think so.

[monkeygirl]

 :) Actually, I've never tried to shoot anyone or kill myself or OD on drugs (although I did take 'I want to bleep you like an animal to heart ;D).  I think that i understood the difference between cartoons and real life pretty well as a kid.  (and as an adult too ;))  Kids aren't stupid, after all.  And if they are, it's usually the parent's fault, not some cartoon.

The thing is, despite not having a religion to belong to, I think of myself as a very spiritual person with strong beliefs and faith.  Just because I choose not to call msyelf one thing or another, makes no difference (and yes, I will admit to having issues on the subject, being a "sexual deviant" and an "abombination in the eyes of god.")

The one thing I remember best, which is sad, is the people who stand outside of abortion clinics and threaten the doctors and nurses and patients with death threats.  That's not what it's all about.  That's has nothing to do with religion. 

[Ariabella]

And they are the reason that I became pro-Choice. I'm sorry, how can you call yourself a Pro-Life and shout out about murdering babies, then turn around and blow up a clinic filled with people?

[Vandren]

Just doing for Potter research for a paper I'm presenting in June . . . thought I'd toss these tidbits into the ring:

Only two attempts to ban Potter books in England (as of 2003).

“The Church’s position is that magic and sorcery are contrary to the Christian religion . . . ut my feeling is that children are capable of interpreting what they read.  Children who are capable of reading Harry Potter could be told not to take witchcraft seriously, or might even realize that for themselves.”
- Bishop Stephen Sykes, chair of the C of E’s doctrine commission

“The Harry Potter controversy may seem bizarre, but it is hardly unexpected to those who watch such trends in the United States, a violent culture that is home to millions of fundamentalist Christians.  In Europe, America is well known for prudery and prohibitionism.”
- Roberta Harrington of the Scottish newspaper the Sunday Herald

Both quoted in: Stephens, Rebecca.  “Harry and Hierarchy: Book Banning as a Reaction to the Subversion of Authority.”  Reading Harry Potter: Critical Essays ed. Giselle Liza Anatol.  London: Praeger, 2003.  52.

[Ariabella]

Also true. There was a tv show on here, a number of years back, called Silk Stalkings, it was a police show. Originally I believe it was part of 5 show late night crime series.  And I heard once there were two versions of each episode made, one for Europe, where there was nudity and more detailed things, and one for the US where they couldn't even show a breast, even though it was late night tv.

[ZK]

Interesting. Simply interesting. *scratches head and shrugs*

As for religion goes, I have my own personal beliefs that I adhere to.

^^

Even though, I have a rather wide selection to choose from with Religion due to my biethnical family.

[monkeygirl]

Also true. There was a tv show on here, a number of years back, called Silk Stalkings, it was a police show. Originally I believe it was part of 5 show late night crime series.  And I heard once there were two versions of each episode made, one for Europe, where there was nudity and more detailed things, and one for the US where they couldn't even show a breast, even though it was late night tv.

Thank god for HBO and SHOWTIME.  What gets me is that it's ok to show violence by not sex?  I have much more trouble with gore then I do naked breasts... actually I rather like naked breasts  ;D  Thank god I live in SF - I can't imagine living somewhere in the midwest.  I can't help thinking of all those lovely pictures of Ibizia with all the girls wandering around topless - how that can be morally or ethically damaging, I can't imagine.

[Ariabella]

My thoughts exactly.  And heck, look at all of the National Geographics over the years with the topless tribal women.

[Hunter]

Naked breasts?  *mock shocked look*  You mean people do that?   *runs around nekkid*  :P

[Mistiq]

Man, Georgia can really be something sometimes. This reminds me of that time when some teacher down there tried to take plays and other literary works out of the school libraries because the authours are homosexual. Some of best poetry ever written was by homosexual authours. I am not a fan of the Series in question, but I think banning them would be wrong.

[Vandren]

Just a few other things I came across (from Ursula K. Le Guin, discussing the fantasy genre from a generalized american point of view, this time):

“something that goes very deep in the American character: a moral disapproval of fantasy, a disapproval so intense, and often so aggressive, that I cannot help but see it as arising, fundamentally, from fear.” (29)

“We tend, as a people, to look upon all works of the imagination either as suspect, or as contemptible.” (30)

“And if it cannot be justified as ‘educational’ or as ‘self-improvement,’ then, in the Puritan value system, it can only be self-indulgence or escapism.  For pleasure is not a value, to the Puritan; in the contrary, it is a sin.” (30)

“The kind of thing you learn from reading about the problems of a hobbit who is trying to drop a magic ring into an imaginary volcano has very little to do with your social status, or material success, or income.” (33)

-  Le Guin, Ursula K.  “Why are Americans Afraid of Dragons?”  Language of the Night  NY: Berkley, 1982.


Wife was in Ireland for a semester a few years back, accidentally caught a documentary on strippers on one ofthe BBC channels.  At 6 or 7 PM, with no fuzzy bits whatsoever.  'Course, over here, it'd show at midnight with the fuzzy bits or black bars.

[Sherona]

Since when can a Christian care about things like civil liberties? If Jesus came back, they'd be begging for the immediacy of their promised totalitarian state where all offenders to God are killed in an instant. (Seriously, it's in the bible. I was a Christian until months ago.)

Being the daughter of a baptist preacher (yes he preached in German but still a christian preacher, and ordained in the state of Kentucky) I have done some serious studying of the bible...and I have yet to find any reference where it says that one should kill non-christians..in fact quite the opposite. One obvious example was when an adulterous woman was about to be stoned Jesus cried for the oen without sin to caste the first stone..no one could so they walked away..of course this is a bible story..I am by no means saying it really happened literally, figuratively or what not (my father just rolled in his grave :P) but just as an example..

would love to know the book, chapter and verse where you claim that it says for non-christians to be killed..(new testament please...as most christians believe under grace rule..where the laws of the old testament are put away since they live 'under' grace now that the son of god was killed for their sins)

In fact even Jesus prayed for the 'sinners' on his last breath, allegedly saying "Father forgive them, they know not what they do"..to be Christian means to be christ-like..

/end agnostic christian rant

:P

Just for the record nope...I do not call myself a christian..I do not really associate with a religion per se..I just...kind of leave myself open to anything...lol.

[Celestial Goblin]

I'm an atheist/agnostic who left the Catholic church at 17 because I morally disagreed with their stance on many matters.

But I gotta say, that's not fair to say this:

Since when can a Christian care about things like civil liberties?

Not all Christians are like that.
Christianity is a large group of different denominations.
There are loud and visible people who attack civil liberties in the name of Christianity, but they do not have a monopoly on that faith and it's teachings.

Indeed, there exist denominations or free-minded individuals who stand for tolerance and against hate. And they believe God wants them to do so, so no contradictions.

'Christian' is a very broad category, really.
Personally, I believe it's better to criticize individual movements, not the whole category of very different people.

[RubySlippers]

I'm not shocked the way things are going we are heading into a warped version of Fahrenheit 451 either with the suppression of all real knowledge and critical learning or at some point some books just being unacceptable or at worst banning all books- as extreme as it is. In college now I must be the only serious classical student left studying what a friend of mine calls the "dusty old books written by dead white men". As I see it college is dumbing down to the lower denominator of go here and learn a trade or skill, not bettering ones breadth of knowledge. Once one can decide this work is good and this one bad and ban the latter your limiting human knowledge and experience- good or bad.

[Sherona]

Indeed, there exist denominations or free-minded individuals who stand for tolerance and against hate. And they believe God wants them to do so, so no contradictions.

'Christian' is a very broad category, really.
Personally, I believe it's better to criticize individual movements, not the whole category of very different people.

Couldn't agree with this more :) There are indeed individuals that claim that they are saving lives by bombing abortion clinics ect and so forth. I am just asking where in the christian bible that he is getting that the bible condones killing non-christians..just a curiosity on my end :)

[Moondazed]

Colleges are simply following in the footsteps of US high schools, thanks to the ridiculous and ass-backward No Child Left Behind Act.  Forcing schools to dumb everything down so that everyone can pass so they can get funding is NOT a step forward... colleges are simply doing the same thing.

[RubySlippers]

I argued to several state officials just to withdraw from No Child Left Behind and forfeit the Federal dollars. They have no business at that level in education anyway save for protecting racial fairness its supposed to be left to the States and citizens as a right. They looked at me like I was a Martian.

Mind you I'm not OPPOSED to studying a trade or vocation after High School and understand a college education in necessary for a good percentage, but my (on my mothers side) grandfather studied business and is was very well grounded in general knowledge. You can and should have both.

I also see benefit in vocational education my brother is a machinist a rather demanding trade both academically and skillwise if focused into an area, and he commands a good salary, but its not college. I love him and am very proud of him though. He is not college material he is one of those folks that is just really good with his hands and precision work there is no shame in that.

[Sherona]

I agree ZK.


that being said back to the topic of book banning.

I don;t think any books need banned. I think books should be viewed as tehy are intended to be read. As something informative, maybe even fun. I see no reason why any books in the Fiction category should ever be banned in a public forum.

However schools do need to look at content, such as some of the erotic stories on E...I would definitly say not appropriate for a library shelf :P However banning a book on any religious grounds is wrong imo..it should be looked at for content and not moral context.

I remember in middle school and I read some of Mark Twain's work. Wonderful author, wrote many classics...but he wrote them in an era where it was ..ok to use racial slurs. Now this day and age it is most inappropriate to use the N- word as a common term for African Americans...however it was in his day. *shrugs* Personally I think that the censorship that had librarians all over US scribbling out those words in their copies of Huckleberry Finn should be used wiht common sense...

common sense..hmm..might be hoping for too much there :P

Edit: aww as far as warning labels for adult material I can see your point on that and will say yeah..those would be handy.

[ZK]

Book content should be monitered in many areas and labeled appropriately. More so, as Sherona says. In schools (both public and private). Banning written material based on religious basis is outright silly. But, when it comes to libraries and even book purchases, they should be a little more strict on who they lend out to and who they sell to. My little brother was able to purchase some Litrotica (I returned it immediately when I found out what he purchased) at the local book store, seeing as it was carefully hidden amongst other books. Forgot what it was, but you wouldn't know it was erotic lit until you read the previews on the back.

[Celestial Goblin]

Labeling books & holding parents responsible for what their kids buy.
It's good for you that you noticed your brother's purchase, ZK. There's time for everything, but kids don't need to have adult material available to them. Too bad some parents completely lack interest in what their kids read or see.

OTOH, I feel even devout Christians have no reason to deny Harry Potter to their kids. It's not the satanic bible... There are classic fairy tales that are more scary and more 'occult' than Harry Potter.

[Sherona]

OTOH, I feel even devout Christians have no reason to deny Harry Potter to their kids. It's not the satanic bible... There are classic fairy tales that are more scary and more 'occult' than Harry Potter.

Indeed. While I disliked the books simply on they aren't really my taste in literature, I see nothing that would scream "Satanic" or "Witchcraft"...*shrugs*

then again I did not see anything inthe Chronicles of Narnia that screamed "Religious" either other then referencing the children as "Sons of Adam" and "Daughters of Eve"..of course I wasn't really trying to read in between the lines etiher..I just read about a cute world filled iwth talking creatures and Magic that only Children can visit.

Just like with HP I just saw a story of people gifted with magic going to a special school with exotic monsters and puzzles to figure out...again..But there are those who will sit and nitpick every word, "What did the author mean here"...

[Elvi]

Here, we have clear 'labelling' when it comes to book shops etc.
There are clear divides between children's areas and 'adult' books usually with factual sections and overlap sections in between.

For instance, the shop we frequent has 'adult' works on the top floor, children's sections on the bottom along with educational and things like roleplay etc.
Where genre overlap, for instance Beasty is into the Japanese graphic novels, both adult and those suitable for children are in the same section, but those deemed only suitable for over 18's are sealed and cannot be read and have a sticker on them.
That also goes for the fantasy fiction, science fiction, roleplay and seveal other sections where there is a cross over.

I also think that books of an adult nature are specially coded so that it shows when they are run through the till.

Again, these things should be, like anything else, monitored by parents, though I have to say that Beasty does watch films and read books that are 'older', simply because we as parents feel she is mature enough to understand the content and the reason for it.

We don't deny her anything, we simply tell her that we feel it is not suitable, why we think it's not suitable and that we will look at it again when she is older.

As for people reading things into books that most see as not there?
Well, the sons of adam/daughters of eve, I did and still do see as a way of saying that they were human.
Harry Potter?
Yeah right, it condemns us all to hell.
The Golden Compass seried?
Oh most certainly a story written to deprive Christians of everything that we hold dearly.....or is it simply what Beasty says...A story set in a fictional world where they don't have souls like we do, they are alien they are different.

[Max]

There is at least one book that I think should be banned.  I really think "The Anarchist Cookbook" should be banned.  Or maybe someone can tell me why a book about making things like letter bombs shouldn't be.

As for Harry Potter, or the Golden Compass?  Can't say that I have read them, can't say that I ever will.  Just can't find the interest to read them.  I think there are plenty of books someone might find objectionable, and I would say, don't read them. 

Now, I think I would find it... uncomfortable if a school would require those books to be read.  Since there is so much bad felings against them.