Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)

[Vekseid]

They're not all refugees. Some of them paid money to be smuggled out, and are economic migrants - not refugees. They had life enough in where they originated to raise three thousand euros and abandoned it for a possibly safer life in Europe. This has actually been going on for a couple of decades now.

Jordan is housing 1.5 million refugees. Turkey 2 million. Vastly outnumbering the support Europe is providing. What we're seeing is the fraction people who aren't satisfied with the prospect of life in those countries, so... Europe gets shit like this. The most ungrateful of the ungrateful. No, it's not representative of Syrians or Muslims, but that's how people are going to take it.

[Dashenka]

No, it's not representative of Syrians or Muslims, but that's how people are going to take it.

The link I posted is from the PVV website. Right wing extremists in the Netherlands. The comments are all how terrible they all are.

I'd to say again that I have no problem in helping honest refugees. It's our duty as humans to help other humans in need. These people, that turn away food and water... no not turn it away, THROW it away, are not in need and do not deserve my help.

[gaggedLouise]

The link I posted is from the PVV website. Right wing extremists in the Netherlands. The comments are all how terrible they all are. 

That's what they would say, isn't it? Like saying (or making the implication) that "anyone from a Muslim country is a fanatic Quran thumper who will want to introduce Sharia law in your country if they get in". It's not as if you can expect reason from the PVV.

I'd to say again that I have no problem in helping honest refugees. It's our duty as humans to help other humans in need. These people, that turn away food and water... no not turn it away, THROW it away, are not in need and do not deserve my help.

It happened in a really special situation, and I figure they had some reason to want to stand firm against the Hungarian police - they don't trust those forces. Even if it meant going on hunger strike or jumping past some picket fences.

[Caehlim]

Economic migrants after the £36.95/week they'd receive in the UK?

If Europe went asylum mad and just took in the entire lot of refugees in Jordan and Turkey then it would be 0.4% of their population. Something no one is asking them to do.

Right now Turkish police just finished assaulting a peaceful Gay Pride parade with water cannons, tear gas and pepper-ball rounds.

Right now Jordan is accused of condoning official torture by amnesty international.

I don't want to live there either.

[Dashenka]

That's what they would say, isn't it? Like saying (or making the implication) that "anyone from a Muslim country is a fanatic Quran thumper who will want to introduce Sharia law in your country if they get in". It's not as if you can expect reason from the PVV.

I don't support this, or ANY Right extremist parties. Let that be very clear :)

[Caehlim]

I'm just going to drop out of the conversation for now, I'm feeling a bit too stressed to really deal with politics and debate.

Sorry for the drive-by discussion.

[Iniquitous]

The reason isn't important?

What do they expect? To get the presidential suite in the local Hilton with salmon and kaviar for breakfast and a 6 course meal for dinner?

They want to pass through Hungary and go to Austria and Germany. That is ALL they want. The only thing they want from Hungary is to be allowed to go through that country. Period.

If I do not trust someone, I am not going to accept anything from them. Be it food, water or a tent in a compound. As has been pointed out, these people do not trust the Hungarians and they are reacting just like the rest of us would if we were put into that situation - and I'd call anyone a liar if they tried to tell me that they'd accept being forced to stay/go somewhere they have no desire to be/go.

Dashenka, it really comes across as you cherry picking what you post and a refusal to even -consider- any other side of this. If you truly have no issue with helping those that need it, as you have claimed, then why are you not appalled at how they are treated in refugee camps? Why are you not appalled at how some people shout that they are inferior to us Westerns and spew hate for them?

I would gladly open my home to a refugee family if it meant sparing them some tent in a refugee camp or a cramped gymnasium where they are treated no better than animals in a pound. I don't expect everyone else to be willing to go that far, but some compassion for these people and some understanding for their reactions when they are stressed and frustrated would be a good start.

[Vekseid]

Economic migrants after the £36.95/week they'd receive in the UK?

Look at the videos I posted. Do they look like the world's most enlightened possessors of foresight, to you?

If Europe went asylum mad and just took in the entire lot of refugees in Jordan and Turkey then it would be 0.4% of their population. Something no one is asking them to do.

Right now Turkish police just finished assaulting a peaceful Gay Pride parade with water cannons, tear gas and pepper-ball rounds.

Yeah, I'm sure the migrants not satisfied with Turkey have gay rights on their minds.

Right now Jordan is accused of condoning official torture by amnesty international.

This is a complete red herring, and insulting to Jordanians for the progress their country has made in the past decades. They are a nation of six million people, integrating a refugee problem of one and a half million  with relatively little fuss. Give them some credit. What they are doing is nothing short of amazing, even counting the fact that they are a neighboring country with shared culture.

If I do not trust someone, I am not going to accept anything from them. Be it food, water or a tent in a compound. As has been pointed out, these people do not trust the Hungarians and they are reacting just like the rest of us would if we were put into that situation - and I'd call anyone a liar if they tried to tell me that they'd accept being forced to stay/go somewhere they have no desire to be/go.

And the video where a man holds his wife and child to train tracks?

And how does this explain their behavior on Lesvos?

[Dashenka]

They want to pass through Hungary and go to Austria and Germany. That is ALL they want. The only thing they want from Hungary is to be allowed to go through that country. Period.

If I do not trust someone, I am not going to accept anything from them. Be it food, water or a tent in a compound. As has been pointed out, these people do not trust the Hungarians and they are reacting just like the rest of us would if we were put into that situation - and I'd call anyone a liar if they tried to tell me that they'd accept being forced to stay/go somewhere they have no desire to be/go.

Dashenka, it really comes across as you cherry picking what you post and a refusal to even -consider- any other side of this. If you truly have no issue with helping those that need it, as you have claimed, then why are you not appalled at how they are treated in refugee camps? Why are you not appalled at how some people shout that they are inferior to us Westerns and spew hate for them?

I would gladly open my home to a refugee family if it meant sparing them some tent in a refugee camp or a cramped gymnasium where they are treated no better than animals in a pound. I don't expect everyone else to be willing to go that far, but some compassion for these people and some understanding for their reactions when they are stressed and frustrated would be a good start.

But Germany can't handle them all. That is the whole point. They all want to settle in the rich countries. I understand that but they have to understand their position themselves. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Germany, the Uk, Austra, the Netherlands who are struggling to make a decent living. These people want a job and a government supported house. These countries cannot handle the hundreds of thousands of refugees coming through their borders on a yearly basis.

So they have to spread the load evenly over Europe. But those refugees refuse to stay in Hungary or Slovakia or whatever.

I'm appalled at how they are treated in refugee camps because there is no alternative.

And I'm sorry, refugees throwing away food and water that is gifted to them by a country willing to help them, have no rights anymore. Hungary and other European countries are showing their goodwill to help them and what do they get? The refugees want more, more and more. When my nan baked cookies and I had all of them but one, getting angry when nan ate it herself, was called greedy and impolite. It's how I was raised.

[Iniquitous]

And the video where a man holds his wife and child to train tracks?

And how does this explain their behavior on Lesvos?

I'd call that an act of desperation based upon the situation. People do stupid and irrational things when they are desperate.

But Germany can't handle them all. That is the whole point. They all want to settle in the rich countries. I understand that but they have to understand their position themselves. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Germany, the Uk, Austra, the Netherlands who are struggling to make a decent living. These people want a job and a government supported house. These countries cannot handle the hundreds of thousands of refugees coming through their borders on a yearly basis.

Agreed, one or two countries cannot take them all - however, if in the same situation, you would want to make it to a country that is "rich" for a better life than one that cannot provide you with the life you want for yourself and your family. And answer me this - are you in the mind of every single person trying to get into these Western countries? No? Then please stop making generalized assumptions. Some may want that government subsidized house and free handouts. Many more want to just settle in, get jobs and support their families. You cannot judge the whole lot based upon some and it is extremely frustrating that you keep doing this.

I'm appalled at how they are treated in refugee camps because there is no alternative.

Yes there are alternatives. Icelanders have shown that.

And I'm sorry, refugees throwing away food and water that is gifted to them by a country willing to help them, have no rights anymore. Hungary and other European countries are showing their goodwill to help them and what do they get? The refugees want more, more and more. When my nan baked cookies and I had all of them but one, getting angry when nan ate it herself, was called greedy and impolite. It's how I was raised.

They are not throwing away the food and water because they want more/all. They are demonstrating their unhappiness with the situation in one of the few peaceful ways they can. It's not greedy when you aren't accepting anything. I'd rather they refuse food and drink peacefully than turn violent because Hungary refuses to allow them through.

[gaggedLouise]

I don't support this, or ANY Right extremist parties. Let that be very clear :)

I didn't suspect you would - or rather, I know that you don't.  :-) It just looked a bit confusing with Veks's comment on those scenes and then your reply to him. - My bad.

[Dashenka]

They are not throwing away the food and water because they want more/all. They are demonstrating their unhappiness with the situation in one of the few peaceful ways they can. It's not greedy when you aren't accepting anything. I'd rather they refuse food and drink peacefully than turn violent because Hungary refuses to allow them through.

Unhappy about what?

I'm sorry but this is the infuriating part for me. They get accepted INTO THE COUNTRY! No war, no IS, shelter, food and water and they have the bold guts to be unhappy?!

How many people in Hungary or other countries in Europe have to get their food from charities because they can't afford it themselves? They see their country give food and water to refugees, who then throw it away. I don't give a damn what the reason is that they throw food away that they have been given out of charity. If you don't want it, then starve for all I care.


Do you really think these people who are unhappy about Greece, Italy, France and Hungary want to go to Iceland? No they don't. They want to get to Germany or the UK, because those countries are rich.



If I had been a political refugee from Russia and I took a boat to the US and I get off the ship in New York. The US accepts me, and puts me into a shelter. I then start complaining about how terrible it is and out of spite, misery, narrowmindedness or protest, I throw away food and water that has been given to me.

That is NOT NORMAL! Whatever your situation is, this is NOT normal behaviour.

[Caehlim]

Yeah, I'm sure the migrants not satisfied with Turkey have gay rights on their minds

I wasn't going to continue with the debate but I do just want to address this point. While my arguments were vague and over emotional, I'm not sure I really deserve the sarcasm there. But yes... Minorities are hit disproportionately hard by events that displace people and GLBTQA people are the targets of violence in lawless regimes/conflict zones.

Example: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/i-was-sure-id-be-raped-or-killed-i-was-terrified-my-life-as-a-gay-syrian-refugee-who-had-to-flee-isis-10484304.html

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I was sarcastic first about the economic migrant issue, so that's a bit hypocritical. Sorry. I do still want to bring the above issue to your attention though. (It's late, sorry I'm rambling I'm really going to stop posting here and go to bed before I just trail off into gibberish)

[Iniquitous]

Again, you are assuming. And do you know what they say about assuming?

It makes an ass out of you and me.

You do not know what their reasons are for wanting to get to Germany or the UK. They may have family there already established for all you know. The father who buried his wife and two children? His ultimate goal was to get to Canada where his sister is already a citizen. She was going to sponsor the family.

You paint every single one of these people as leeches and moochers yet you are utterly incapable of knowing what is going on in their minds. It is really sad to see the hate you spew towards them - and I feel sorry for them because so many people are like you. Refuse to even consider that these people just want to get settled and make it on their own.

And I call you out on your claim to want to see these people helped. I do not get the impression that you care one whit for these people. The tone of your posts comes across that you'd rather they stay in Syria and die than inconvenience you or anyone else in the western countries one little bit.

I can't and won't claim to know what the answer is to this situation. What I do know is that putting them in cramped camps with just enough to survive on (if that) is not the answer. I know that emotions are running high on both sides of this issue. Those that are truly refugees cannot stop to think about the countries they are trying to get to - their lives were/are at stake and, even you would put your own life above the somewhat foggy economics of a country you were trying to get to. The only thing that matters to them is getting to somewhere safe and being able to have a life.

And that brings up something else you have continued to ignore. There is a difference between surviving and having a life. A large difference. And you cannot fault anyone for wanting more than just survival.

[Vekseid]

I'm not sure if you watched the videos, but the ones accepting food/water aid and the ones seizing/destroying it were not the same people.

[kylie]

     Paul Mason has a column I found interesting about the Syrian refugee crisis and a touch on Western economies.  Among other things, he says the West economically speaking, needs immigrants -- a rather large number of them.

The OECD’s central projection is that, to stand a chance of avoiding stagnation, the EU’s workforce will have to add 50 million more people through migration by 2060 (a similar number is needed in the US). The Paris-based thinktank says if that doesn’t happen, it is a “significant downside risk” to growth. What this means should be spelled out, because no politician has bothered to do so: to avoid economic stagnation in the long term, Europe needs migrants.

      And ironically, it has been economic failure in the West which has tended to lead to fascist parties gaining influence.  I presume this is perhaps, when certain political figures go constructing scapegoats of these populations that many working class people know little about?  That has often been the case, or at least a significant part of the case, with Republicans as well in the US.

Consent for inward economic migration is fragile and falling – as evidenced by the sudden rush by politicians and tabloids to reclassify the Syrian exodus as a special case. Even if populist resistance to migration stops short of fascism, and even if anti-migration parties are disempowered by the electoral system, their existence highlights a failing consensus. And that is, in turn, founded on economic failure. The Eurozone has produced an arc of stagnation and discontent along its southern border. There is mass unemployment in the very countries that have become the first port of call for migrants and refugees.

       Now, I do think it's curious what the very assumptions of constant growth in the West might be anyway.  Veks says do not make classes out of nations, but that is pretty well what the international "system" (and in some particular ways, the Western international system with its very literal gunboat diplomacy foundations) has largely been about.  We don't talk about "post-colonial" and "development" and "Asian tigers" and the like because we live in a classless world. 

      While it is true there have been a few very unsavory parties out there such as the Taliban and various abusive more uniformed regimes, it's also true that the West, and Russia I'd add for the sake of catching everyone, have been happy to use them as proxies in their own Great Games and the like onward up to the 21st century.  And have also been quite happy to run in demanding brutally skewed and sometimes downright rapacious treaties.  Or in some cases encouraging them to spend on infrastructure/endless construction and "market reform" that has often enough been so lovely for foreign business but so horrible for domestic economies in the long run.  Though some countries have done it to themselves quite a bit domestically too, just to keep it fair (contemporary Japan is also probably a half-decent study on overpowered domestic construction industry manipulating politics, not that they have suffered like some).

      Dash is correct that many putatively "developed" countries are not taking care of their own people very well either, but this only shows that the distribution of wealth and resources is unfair for everyone.  Perhaps if managers did not always assume ten times the income of common workers (or is that around the going rate in Western Europe?  I'm not sure) or hundreds of times (which is the going rate in the US), and perhaps if a grossly rich handful did not have nigh half the wealth of some countries, then it would be much more practical for say, Western countries (among others!) to put programs in place to integrate all these immigrants (which their economies need anyway) more humanely.  Oh, but that might shave a point or two off corporate profit margins.  Can't have that now, can we.  We can't even have that when the banks have visibly screwed over the country and the world, while continuing to take the same old bonuses.  Of course we can't have that to help regular people...  ::)

[Oniya]

I caught this on the CNN news feed today:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/04/news/refugees-island-billionaire/

This guy is apparently trying to purchase an island in the Mediterranean, and hire on refugees to employ them to build their own houses, schools, and a hospital - essentially creating a new nation for them from the ground up.

[kylie]

     That's interesting.  It does make me wonder what's being done with all the unused land, in some areas (such as said Greek islands) and real estate capacity in others (such as the US where the homeless and displaced have, at least occasionally, managed to occupy it).  What is it being held for?  Speculation investment?  National prestige?  Symbolic messages, such as the Greeks not wanting to appear 'soft' or 'too welcoming' -- and countries premised on 'Every good person here works their butt off all their lives and wholeheartedly believes that is the only proper way to live, really you know, see that's why we're so much better than the rest of the world'?? 

      So many resources, such tight fists. 

      I also wonder if some countries aren't fearing there may be a catch:  When do we hit the point where the Western growth model will be threatened because the ratio of barely paid working class to uber wealthy finally becomes too huge?  It isn't as if all the immigrants are taking the highest paying jobs.  But someone "has" to keep filling the struggling bottom with new waves of weak to expendable, if people say they want growth.  Eventually, when there's a downturn or another wave of social dislocation as 'too many of these immigrants come from the wrong culture', more surveillance and policing might kick in or there might be some other fundamental crisis in state politics.  But isn't that the price of persistent pursuit of growth?  Capital is fluid, but now labor has to be fluid too.  What if culture, both domestic and immigrant political cultures, are not nearly so fluid after all?

[gaggedLouise]

I caught this on the CNN news feed today:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/04/news/refugees-island-billionaire/

This guy is apparently trying to purchase an island in the Mediterranean, and hire on refugees to employ them to build their own houses, schools, and a hospital - essentially creating a new nation for them from the ground up.

Hmm...there used to be some half-cheeky suggestions in the German press that Greece should sell a couple of scenic islands to Germany, the UK and other creditors to pay with the most sellable items they have in a country that's otherwise broke....I think that was one or two years ago.

I figure the Egyptian mogul's proposal is fairly hard to fit into international law - you can't actually establish a country and make yourself the president by *buying* the territory.  :P If he wanted a formal lease on the island for a limited time, but not full sovereignty, it would look a bit more in order, but what would happen when he passes away? I bet he doesn't want a lease of just twenty years or the like, so the land rights would go over to his son, that's what he would like to see if there was a lease - and that's something Greece or Italy would likely find stiff to accept.

Then it's true there is lots pf land (in other countries than Greece) that might get used more productively if it wasn't sort of defined by not being close to the capital in that country, or not close enough/*too* close to a major industrial and commercial hub. Some areas just seem to land in a perpetual backwater because they're framed as part of the wrong nation, or in the wrong kind of grid.

[kylie]

I figure the Egyptian mogul's proposal is fairly hard to fit into international law - you can't actually establish a country and make yourself the president by *buying* the territory.  :P If he wanted a formal lease on the island for a limited time, but not full sovereignty, it would look a bit more in order, but what would happen when he passes away? I bet he doesn't want a lease of just twenty years or the like, so the land rights would go over to his son, that's what he would like to see if there was a lease - and that's something Greece or Italy would likely find stiff to accept.

      I suppose the states might be thinking of a few particular objections:

     1) What the linked article cited, they would somehow appear 'too welcoming' and it would perhaps somehow encourage more refugees than they wish to show up somewhere or other.  (As if that weren't happening pretty much already at quite visible locations, and regardless of them not approving??  But anyhoo, they say they're worried about it.)

     Possibly 2) Yes, is this a sort of messing with the map of borders and loss of sovereignty although...  I wonder, if we looked closely, how often borders have actually been redrawn in such small ways in say, the last century.  I don't really know.  Which leads me to suspect it could be a bit more of:

     3)  They may be imagining that hey, any viable island where this guy could think of putting a small port and a hotel of any sort, eventually some corporation or interest or other that are more chummy with our party/friends, or who may have even more money to toss in someday when the world is still more crowded... 

...  OR something similar: perhaps let us wish happily in some lovely economic boom as opposed to the recession and that ugly visual mess of the refugee crisis here now, there will be more competing offers yet...  So perhaps it's best to just hang on to all these little parcels, however remote, and speculate that someday they could be still more valuable.  And perhaps that someday, the country could make such a deal and keep it all more closely under a familiar national/cultural thumb and not appear to be helping 'the wrong people' at the same time.

      I don't see anywhere in the linked article that Sawiris, the Egyptian has said he intends to keep the island indefinitely.  In fact, it says he calls it a "temporary" arrangement.  So I think it's an open question what time frame he would propose exactly.  The concern might be more a feeling of, if he is the official manager and his stated purpose is to accommodate 100,000 or 200,000 people, wait, we don't approve of how they arrived in the first place -- "They are not vetted" and they appear, de facto, to be a sort of domain with their own culture and rules. 

     Given the choice, I wonder if the Italians and Greeks might not prefer to keep the refugees as dispersed as possible.  That's pretty much been the direction of new 'lower-income' housing vouchers in some American cities too:  They are planned in ways that end up breaking up poorer communities, providing a new map where the city can say, "Seeee, no more visible poverty problem blighting our fabulous downtown or historic inner city" while communities where people used to help each other get by and maybe find some political solidarity in a place, get broken up and scattered.

[eBadger]

Unhappy about what?

I'm sorry but this is the infuriating part for me. They get accepted INTO THE COUNTRY! No war, no IS, shelter, food and water and they have the bold guts to be unhappy?!

...

That is NOT NORMAL! Whatever your situation is, this is NOT normal behaviour.

In Hungary, they're being placed in cramped camps rife with crime, lacking water, food, and sewage, potentially for years, with little hope of anything but abject poverty afterward.  The camps are, quite literally, far worse than any prison in the US. 

Germany has announced itself dedicated to helping them integrate. 

Is it normal behavior to want to avoid years in a horrible prison, both for you and your family, in favor of reaching a place where you can have a chance at a normal life?  Watching your children go to school rather than go through trash looking for something to eat.  Would you thank those jailers for intercepting you?  What would you do in that position?  (Those are actual questions for you, Dash). 

As mentioned, I think it admirable the refugees aren't turning to violence.  A hunger strike is extreme, but also a peaceful response.  They aren't demanding money, handouts, or such - they just want to be allowed to go free.  Sort of like the country they initially fled from, because from what I'm seeing being incarcerated in Hungary isn't any better. 

[Dashenka]

I don't know what I would do. But if my homeland is ravaged by war and I barely escaped with my life, I'd like to think I'm not going to be too picky about where I end up as long as I'm alive. That's how I'm raised.

Be gratefull for what you got because the alternative is having nothing at all.

[kylie]

Be gratefull for what you got because the alternative is having nothing at all.

    Granted it's relative...  But that can also be the sort of logic that leads people to believe it's completely reasonable for handicapped, elderly people to live high up in buildings with no elevators.  "Life is tough for everyone.  It could be worse.  Who are they to complain?"

    The alternative would be to try to set standards and maintain them, get politics in order to pay for them for a much larger number of people.  But well that might seem 'too expensive' for everyone who's been taught that no one 'deserves' to live below the 10th floor unless they've worked 60 hours a week for 40 years in the same town, same job, regardless of what anyone else has tried to do to take advantage of them anywhere (including there).  Though I think when you look closely at the populations even where people have been taught such things?  There are huge differences in status and privilege (often some real ugly abuses too) inside them just hiding under such presumptions of 'everyone paying their dues.'

[Dashenka]

    Granted it's relative...  But that can also be the sort of logic that leads people to believe it's completely reasonable for handicapped, elderly people to live high up in buildings with no elevators.  "Life is tough for everyone.  It could be worse.  Who are they to complain?"

   

Except they pay taxes and rent and health insurances. So it's not reasonable at all.

[kylie]

       Didn't say it was.  I said people would justify it using about the same sort of language and logic.