Is it racist to say "It's ok to be white"?

[Skynet]

Give an example of systematic oppression please.

Blockbusting. Here's an article about it.

Basically after the turmoil of the 1960s, there was a not-insignificant fear that the end of segregation would turn white neighborhoods into crime-ridden black slums. Various real estate brokers tapped into this racial fear by encouraging white people to sell their properties at a loss. In some cases they'd even hire very desperate African-Americans (homeless especially) to push shopping carts full of trash around said neighborhoods to give the impression that "they're already coming in!"

Once the realtors got their nice homes, they'd then sell it to African-Americans at above-market rates. The moving in of a black family into said neighborhoods created a self-fulfilling prophecy, triggering a chain reaction of "white flight."

This was not an isolated case. Along with redlining and "ghetto loans" these shaped entire neighborhoods and although illegal, many of these real estate businesses and banks did not go out of business or get shut down.

[TheHighwayHitman]

Is it still a common practice today? You said not insignificant fear which implies at least some of it was warranted. Don't get me twisted though. I think racism is bad. Point me at it and I'm happy to blast it.

[Oniya]

'Not insignificant' simply means that it wasn't just one or two people 'having issues'.  Back in the '60s, it was still considered scandalous if a married couple was interracial.  (Ref. Loving vs. VA)  There was fear, and it was moderately prevalent - that's not to say it was at all rational.

[Skynet]

Is it still a common practice today? You said not insignificant fear which implies at least some of it was warranted. Don't get me twisted though. I think racism is bad. Point me at it and I'm happy to blast it.

They already shaped the neighborhoods we live in, and as a result of various policies the African-American neighborhoods have the worst infrastructure on average. And in Baltimore's case, a lot of those houses have lead paint which is a health hazard. The legacy still impacts generations today.

ContraPoints did a pretty good video hinting on those things. First pertains specifically to Baltimore and how the death of Freddie Gray was the straw that broke the camel's back. I do not have the time stamp, but she also talked about how there was an entire cottage industry of lawyers preying upon African-American families suing for damages caused by lead paint, and due to deception ended up being tricked out of most of their funds which said lawyers pocketed.

Another more recent video is more broad and covers this along with a variety of other issues.

And regarding banks, Wells Fargo was found to have practiced discriminatory and unfair policies towards black and Latino lenders.

A thing to keep in mind is that there are social rules governing our societies which are not necessarily tied to the law. The legal rules of our society caught up, but our social rules have not.

[ReijiTabibito]

The real kicker on the housing thing is that the old practices of the past are now coming to unilaterally bite an entire generation - mine - in the present.  After the CRM, cities and townships were no longer allowed to discriminate in housing applications on the basis of race.

So they changed tactics, instead establishing an arcane series of regulations for the construction of new housing, as it is not - nor probably will it ever be - illegal to discriminate on the basis of being able to pay.  This was meant to keep minorities out of newly-established housing developments, as they would not be able to afford the cost of purchasing a home, but it's since backfired with the now-oncoming Millennials, who are putting off purchasing a house because the aforementioned regulations have driven the value of housing through the roof.

The worst of it is that the regulations won't come undone, not without a lot of push from renters and people who still ascribe to the notion that home ownership is a good way to build wealth, because for homeowners, there is no such thing as a housing crisis.

IH, though, I think a lot of what faces the black community today gets mis-classified.  That's not to say that there's not discrimination against them - there is - but a lot of what we deal with now, such as infrastructure and the noted above housing, I think can be called economic oppression, too.  It's a blurry line for me, because how do you separate one from the other in the case of this particular segment of society?

[Skynet]

IH, though, I think a lot of what faces the black community today gets mis-classified.  That's not to say that there's not discrimination against them - there is - but a lot of what we deal with now, such as infrastructure and the noted above housing, I think can be called economic oppression, too.  It's a blurry line for me, because how do you separate one from the other in the case of this particular segment of society?

Intersectional theory addresses these concerns.

Imagine a poor white man and a poor black man. Let's assume both are the same age and body type: twenty-something, around 6 feet tall, not muscular but do have a bit of muscle from manual labor jobs. Both worry about paying rent, not having adequate healthcare, etc.

But the poor black man's much more likely to be prematurely shot or viewed as a dangerous threat by police officers.

The black man's much less likely to have his job applications get through if he has a "black" name like Tyrone.

The black man will be much more likely to receive a longer sentence for a crime than the white man, even if the circumstances and offenses are virtually identical. He's also much more likely to be pulled over by police and stopped and frisk for weapons or drugs on his person.

I realize that there are many other minority groups than just African-Americans and Caucasians, and they too face problems both similar and unique. But this may be a bit too lengthy for one post.

[Lustful Bride]

Its the problems of a system. Systems of hate are like cycles of violence and other harmful terms. They live to only perpetuate themselves, to pit people against each other, to make them bleed and suffer so they can never pick each other up and work together to stop it and break the cycle from continuing on again and again.

[ReijiTabibito]

Intersectionality isn't one of those things I ascribe to - mostly because I'm not even sure what the hell it is.  Seems like every third person I know talks about intersectionality, but it never sounds like the same thing.  ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/intersectional-feminism-jargon )  The linked article largely echoes my confusion about the term.


Here's what I will agree on, though.  Certain specific communities have a spiderweb of problems, all of which relate to and can reinforce others.  The centerpiece of what sits at this spiderweb is man's inherent distrust of cultures unlike his own, of "their ways are strange."

This is anecdotal, but I grew up in a mid-sized city, around 50k in population, in 'flyover country.'  We weren't majority-minority, but we did have a more-than-average presence at our schools.  Here's the thing.  As students, we all got along really well, regardless of appearance, and I think that had to do with culture.  We saw the same movies, listened to the same music, complained about the same things.  (And if we didn't, we considered that it really wasn't our business what other people watched or listened, most of the time.)

To resume the line.  One of the major chains on the black community is the view - some would argue it's legit, others would argue it's perceived, I argue look at the DoJ numbers - that they are a disproportionate segment of the criminal populace.  If you hear a statistic - true or not - that black people are...let's say 3x as likely to commit a crime.  That's going to influence the decisions of hiring managers.  "Kid seems alright, but can I really trust that he's one of 'the good ones,' or is it just an act?"  Most people, being cautious by nature, will look for a safer option.  Which has the unfortunate effect of leaving the kid in the lurch.  But the kid still needs a place to stay, or at least money to chip in if he's living at home.

This is probably 100% obvious, but people are more likely to consider criminal enterprises to earn income if they can't do it legitimately.  Kid can't get a job, instead turns to selling drugs (let's say weed, because it's usually the worst offender in disparate sentencing), gets arrested, bam.  You've just created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Regina Minx]

Give an example of systematic oppression please.

How about the discrimination against hiring female musicians, such that when many major metropolitan orchestras transitioned to blind auditions, women got hired 30-55% more often?

[Oniya]

How about the discrimination against hiring female musicians, such that when many major metropolitan orchestras transitioned to blind auditions, women got hired 30-55% more often?

I read that as 'blind audiences'.  I've obviously been up too long.

[TheHighwayHitman]

Some things I agree with. Some things I don't. Some things have reasons associated with them that make the results. Statistics over the last few years have shown that a white person is more likely to get shot by the police. Furthermore the evidence doesn't show that blacks are targeted because they are doing nothing wrong. They get in trouble with the law more often because they disregard the law more often.

You look at things like wealth distribution... well, when you have a single parent household with a lack of education (having kids and having to work makes higher learning very difficult) the odds of being wealthy are slim to none. This isn't just black people either. This is a standard across the board. When you eliminate a parent and an income from a household you've forced the other parent to try and do double duty while simultaneously dropping maximum potential down by half.

I grew up in a single parent home. My pops worked three jobs. He literally broke his back twice. It wasn't pretty. So I know what it's like. It's also largely why I am the way that I am. I went through high school working full time and graduated on the honor role. Finished in the top 2% in the state on my science (biplogy) scores and scored a 1240 on my SAT. I had to work my rear end off. Things weren't handed to me. I certainly didn't cash any white privilege checks.

I don't buy the excuse of a poor education. I went to a black school. It was terrible. It wasn't taken seriously. There was no discipline. Girls would literally brag about getting pregnant "so they could get that check" and the boys were more interested in basket ball and street fighter. I'm not saying this to smash anybody or sound racist. It is literally first hand experience. When there are kids who cannot read or write, or do single digit multiplication by 8th or 9th grade, you can't realistically expect them to do well in the real world.

I think home ec should make a come back. That class was amazing. That was random. I know.

It's blurry to me. I don't want to sound like everybody started on an equal playing field. Because they didn't/don't. But I also refuse to give into the bar of low expectations or of being a victim of anything but your own bad choices (or your parents). I don't know how to explain It, but I will try. My successes over others throughout my life... I earned. How dare you diminish my success as mere privilege because of my skin color, or worse yet, insinuate that the reason you don't share my success is because you're oppressed due to your own skin color. Your parents taught you good ideas from bad ideas and you didn't listen. Or they didn't teach you, and we're subsequently, terrible parents.  Does what I am trying to say there make sense?

Switching to a different point mentioned; You shouldn't buy a house you can't afford. That seems like common sense to me. I'm confused. I don't have a house. But I'm going too. It won't be massive or anything. But I'm not going to put myself in debt for 30 years and the land it's going to be on will be mine. 40 acres of it. It's too early to tell, but that seems reasonable to me.

I dunno. It's an interesting conversation but also one in which I prefer to be an observer because I have mixed feelings both ways. I'm also not sure I can clearly convey my thoughts.

[Iniquitous]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBQx8FmOT_0

Argue that.

[RedRose]

This thread is especially interesting to me as some French students now are speaking of intersectionality, racialized no white meetings and all. It's very very new here and totally not understood (including by me, I fear, and sadly the fact that they trashed several unis including one I attended isn't helping). So, following.

[ReijiTabibito]

This thread is especially interesting to me as some French students now are speaking of intersectionality, racialized no white meetings and all. It's very very new here and totally not understood (including by me, I fear, and sadly the fact that they trashed several unis including one I attended isn't helping). So, following.

I forget which university it was, but one of the major campus protests featured safe spaces...that were segregated.  No whites, or no men, or what-have-you.  This got upped at the Evergreen College debacle, where basically all the minority students demanded that all the white students not show up to class for a day.  That's how Bret Weinstein got in the news, because he refused to comply with the demand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBQx8FmOT_0

Argue that.

Challenge accepted.

Some statements - "If your parents are still married," "If you grew up with a father figure in the home" - are cultural criteria.  The single parenthood rate amongst the black community is...I think I read somewhere triple that of the white community.  Studies have been published, quoted on TV, over and over - having a father in the home is a major net benefit to the family.  And yet, and yet...have we seen any real change?  This isn't the sort that can be codified into a regulation; if Congress tried to pass a compulsory marriage law, I think the entire country would turn out to oppose it.  So in this case, we have to ask ourselves - why is it that even with all those demonstrated advantages of marriage and fathers, why are not more people signing on for that?

The vast bulk of the statements - cell phone, helping with the bills, food on the table - are economic criteria.  They are directly related to someone's ability to secure income.  The higher you can go on the SES, the less you have to worry about questions like those.  We know where the money is - heck, I would argue that not having college as a post-secondary option is actually to the benefit of an individual, because it makes you explore other options!  Trade school.  Start your own business.  Etc.  If we know where the money is, then shouldn't it be a simple matter of educating those that want to escape poverty on how they can?

Last thing.  "None of the statements I've made have anything to do with any decision you've ever made."

He's correct.  But he's leaving out a major proviso.  They had no decision, they had no input into those things - but their parents did.  Their parents decided yes or no on marriage; their parents decided what they wanted to do with their life; their parents.  As the old saying goes, sins of the father are visited upon the son.  We recognize that this is wrong, but the wrongness does not change that.  To me, this video is less about the kids and more about the decisions their parents made in life.

[Lustful Bride]

This thread is especially interesting to me as some French students now are speaking of intersectionality, racialized no white meetings and all. It's very very new here and totally not understood (including by me, I fear, and sadly the fact that they trashed several unis including one I attended isn't helping). So, following.

I forget which university it was, but one of the major campus protests featured safe spaces...that were segregated.  No whites, or no men, or what-have-you.  This got upped at the Evergreen College debacle, where basically all the minority students demanded that all the white students not show up to class for a day.  That's how Bret Weinstein got in the news, because he refused to comply with the demand.

Things like this, do much more damage for the strive for equality than anything else. What if someone is biracial? Are they denied altogether?

How long until its "No Jews allowed in our safe space"  "No Hispanics allowed" "No Blacks in our safe space" ? How long until it then turns to "Today people of race X are not allowed to come to this college at all."

I can understand safe spaces and I am coming around to them, but racially segregated spaces...just saying it sets off alarm bells.

*Watches video* Hmm..some I agree with others I don't. Problem is I don't really know what to way to say voice my opinions. :/

[Darkcide]

https://youtu.be/jf5TEoo-EY0

[Regina Minx]

I read that as 'blind audiences'.  I've obviously been up too long.

Well, I'm sure at least some blind people go to orchestral performances...

[Eye of Horus]

Certain specific communities have a spiderweb of problems, all of which relate to and can reinforce others.  The centerpiece of what sits at this spiderweb is man's inherent distrust of cultures unlike his own, of "their ways are strange."

Yep. In general, getting people to integrate is hard. Even university students (who are generally thought of as pretty open minded) who go to universities that deliberately mix people of different backgrounds together in halls often ask to be transferred to stay with people who are more “like them”. And after WW2, the US Army spent vast amounts of money to develop techniques to enable soldiers of different ethnicities to work together effectively.

This is anecdotal, but I grew up in a mid-sized city, around 50k in population, in 'flyover country.'  We weren't majority-minority, but we did have a more-than-average presence at our schools.  Here's the thing.  As students, we all got along really well, regardless of appearance, and I think that had to do with culture.  We saw the same movies, listened to the same music, complained about the same things.  (And if we didn't, we considered that it really wasn't our business what other people watched or listened, most of the time.)

And this is the solution. If children of different backgrounds go to the same schools and make friends early in life, the idea of the other group being an “other” is lessened. It’s a generational thing and you have to be patient with it.

And to comment on the OP: yes, of course it’s okay to be white. But the people who feel that there’s something wrong enough with society that they need to go out and state is as a protest? They’re either misinformed, trolls, or genuine racists (and it’s fairly common for the latter to “hide” behind trolling). My advice would be to go and talk to them (and / or the people they’re engaging) as civilly as possible. Don’t ridicule them - at least not as a first resort. The trolls will just be amused, and many racists have extremely well-developed victim complexes.

[Oniya]

And this is the solution. If children of different backgrounds go to the same schools and make friends early in life, the idea of the other group being an “other” is lessened. It’s a generational thing and you have to be patient with it.

Funny thing - my daughter went to an elementary school that was in a predominantly white town (rural, midwestern US.)  She told me that it taught her that 'being a jerk has nothing to do with the color of your skin' - the 'jerks' were all the same race as the non-jerks.  She's in a more diverse setting in high school, (urban, northeastern US) and her social circle is fairly diverse as well.  The kids seem to look out for each other as well.

[Skynet]

Intersectionality isn't one of those things I ascribe to - mostly because I'm not even sure what the hell it is.  Seems like every third person I know talks about intersectionality, but it never sounds like the same thing.  ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/intersectional-feminism-jargon )  The linked article largely echoes my confusion about the term.

The one that I find most useful is the original definition, aka viewing racism/sexism/homophobia as inter-related instead of totally isolated cases of "who has it worse?" Oppression Olympics. Political groups warp and add on their own definitions all the time, and inexperienced people regurgitate the term. When in doubt, rely on the scholars who dedicate their lives to a subject over the average Joe/Jane on the Twittersphere...or establishment neoliberal figures like Hillary Clinton seeking to cash in on revolutionary street cred.

I still think the original definition has value, even if idiots misuse it for their own agenda. Much like how "freedom of speech" is still a valid concept in spite of people interpreting it to mean "nobody should criticize me."

[RedRose]

Growing up together, going to the same school, etc... It seemed to have helped a certain generation, but not so much ours. Also if your child is bullied, because white or black or green, you're not going to keep him there (if there's a choice) and then there's no more "vivre ensemble"... My area has like,  60 different nationalities, and is (was? sigh) known for its multi culturalism and tolerance. Despite this, assholes managed to attack Jews, Christians, Muslims, white people, black people, Asians, cops, doctors, soldiers, firemen... Now everyone is butthurt and defensive and feels threatened. I understand the ghetto temptation. I enjoy going around and see the African ladies in their boubou, the Indian ladies in their sari, the Chinese ladies and their sun umbrellas, the chassidic Jews in their garb, the day to day life is GOOD but yes I understand the temptation because of a minority of assholes.

[Tolvo]

In regards to the original posted question, I find it similar to people saying White Lives Matter/All Lives Matter which I find to be rooted in racist ideology. People are not generally saying it is not ok to be white or that white people don't matter. So to assert that there is comes off like creating a threat to make it sound like people are oppressed or maligned for being white as a whole, similar I find to Neo-Nazi rhetoric of people afraid of the White Genocide.

[CriminalMindsFan]

A little off topic but I hate that some believe that white's can't be victim of racism or hate. They defend that belief by saying a majority can't be a victim of racism or hate.

[RedRose]

A little off topic but I hate that some believe that white's can't be victim of racism or hate. They defend that belief by saying a majority can't be a victim of racism or hate.

Me too. I can show them some niiiiice areas...

[Lilias]

Racism and prejudice are not the same thing. Racism is institutional; the suffix -ism is used to denote a system (which, at least in the west, is a system of white supremacy). Prejudice is individual; anyone can be prejudiced towards anyone else, with or without factoring in their skin colour. POC can certainly be prejudiced towards white people, but that is not racism because there is no system in place that oppresses white people.