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Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon

Started by ShadowFox89, April 15, 2013, 03:15:24 PM

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ShadowFox89

 As of this posting, at least 2 dead and 23 people injured.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/15/17764747-explosions-rock-finish-of-boston-marathon-2-killed-and-at-least-23-hurt-police-say?lite

I.. I don't know what else to say right now. Is this an accident? Domestic terrorism? State sponsored by a foreign power?
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Callie Del Noire

Been watching the news on and off..

I'm split on what it could be. I do think that the Media needs to back off and wait. Report what the authorities say.. but damn.. give them space to work and save lives.

Chris Brady

They've confirmed it was bombs, and they disarmed a third.
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Hyena Dandy

Glad the third was disarmed. My dad works in boston, and a few of my friends are there at the moment for the marathon, so... I'm waiting to hear from people.

Beguile's Mistress

There are reports of band width for cell phone communication being overloaded so that kind of communication may be delayed.

Ali Z

#5
According to what I've read so far, there were 4 explosive devices in total. Two more were found and disarmed, one via controlled detonation.

I really hope they can track down a suspect quickly. :(

EDIT: ABC dot com just reported a 3rd explosion at a Library.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/explosions-boston-marathon-finish-line-18960342#.UWxqs8qmxeI

Sex Bobomb

#6
Share this folks. If you are looking for someone at the Marathon and can't get through on the phone, try these links.

http://raceday.baa.org/individual.html

http://google.org/personfinder/2013-boston-explosions

Hotline for those searching for loved ones at the #BostonMarathon: (617) 635-4500 announced by Police Commisioner Davis

Sarena

Another explosion at the JFK library, it happened about the same time as the explosions at the Boston Marathon.  They aren't sure if it was an unfortunate coincidence or if the two are located.  Praying for the city of Boston and all of the injured, dead and their families.
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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Sarena on April 15, 2013, 04:24:00 PM
Another explosion at the JFK library, it happened about the same time as the explosions at the Boston Marathon.  They aren't sure if it was an unfortunate coincidence or if the two are located.  Praying for the city of Boston and all of the injured, dead and their families.

They are saying it was just a fire. .something that most likely ISN'T related

BraveEarth

I'm kind of mad at all of this but sadly not really surprised.

Ali Z

The comments underneath most of the news coverage articles are even more disappointing. People don't even regard the seriousness of the situation, and are making utterly stupid comments about how it's North Korea's fault, or a plot by the government. It's appalling.

RubySlippers

Everyone in the country is going to overreact again lets put this in perspective we have over 300 million citizens and the impact in lost lives currently is under five and around fifty more were wounded. Its a blip on the screen and our security forces found at least one bomb and disarmed it. Its just not a big deal really but the bomb search was clearly not good before the event they had gaps.

That said I never sweat the things I have no control over things just happen some good and some bad in the world I suspect its domestic terrorism its Patriot's Day and Tax Day so it would be reasonable to assume.



Usani

Regardless of what the reason or cause for what happened today I still hope that they fin whoever did this and my prayers and thoughts are with everyone in Boston.  Doesn't matter why it happened, just the simple fact that people were hurt today physcially and emotionally because of some idiot is very sad.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: RubySlippers on April 15, 2013, 05:21:55 PM
Everyone in the country is going to overreact again lets put this in perspective we have over 300 million citizens and the impact in lost lives currently is under five and around fifty more were wounded. Its a blip on the screen and our security forces found at least one bomb and disarmed it. Its just not a big deal really but the bomb search was clearly not good before the event they had gaps.

That said I never sweat the things I have no control over things just happen some good and some bad in the world I suspect its domestic terrorism its Patriot's Day and Tax Day so it would be reasonable to assume.

I think it will be another round of Fear as a way to win votes.. sigh..

Beguile's Mistress

I'm going to kind of hold off on any reaction until the casualties are healed.

Callie Del Noire

The big thing.. a LOT of Americans don't have a  lot of experience dealing with Terrorism.. aside from things like Pearl Harbor..we've never had a lot. A LOT of events in our past could qualify as it. how many lynchings, church burnings, and such in the past could qualify? Many..

It's been only in the last few years that terms like 'Terror crime' and 'Hate crime' come into play. The media isn't adverse to using them to hype ratings and their position in the market share.

I'd hold off till I find out who did this..and why. Odds are it is a terror act.. but who did it? I don't see a lot of domestic groups doing things like this.. Militia style groups..no federal ties beyond the date.. White Power groups? I don't see a link.. ditto most Eco groups..

Foreign terror..lots of groups.

We shall have to see though.

And try very hard to not be ruled by fear.

Cyrano Johnson

Don't underestimate America's supremacist domestic terror groups. That they haven't managed to match 9/11 yet has not been for lack of trying, especially since Obama came to power.

It's hard to see how the Boston Marathon ties into anyone's agenda, really. But it could just as easily be someone with a sickness whose logic doesn't line up with any of the usual "terrorism" suspects.
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Moraline

My heart goes out to the people affected by this terrible act.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Cyrano Johnson on April 15, 2013, 06:23:30 PM
Don't underestimate America's supremacist domestic terror groups. That they haven't managed to match 9/11 yet has not been for lack of trying, especially since Obama came to power.

It's hard to see how the Boston Marathon ties into anyone's agenda, really. But it could just as easily be someone with a sickness whose logic doesn't line up with any of the usual "terrorism" suspects.

I don't.. but you have to put a message out there. I don't see this working for anyone.

BraveEarth

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on April 15, 2013, 06:00:08 PM
I think it will be another round of Fear as a way to win votes.. sigh..

This is the main reason I am mad as I can see the wheels turning for this so steadily.

AllieCat

This is what we know here in Boston. (I have a family member who works at the Prudential building in Boston and a friend of the family who works two blocks away, thankfully neither were working there today.

A) 2 dead, nearly 100 injured (8 year old one of the dead)'
B) Area is still under lockdown
C) They are looking for a man spotted on surveillance carrying multiple backpacks and apparently placing one of them in a garbage can near the explosion site
D) A saudi national is being questioned by FBI after being spotted being suspicious and running from the explosion. FBI is saying saudi has been cooperative and is denying any link
E) about a 20 block or so area in Boston is still locked down as they try to find more devices (four so far, two exploded, one in a hotel near Copley Square, one in an unknown location)

Beguile's Mistress

2 dead (not identified)
80 wounded - many critically
A 2, 3 and 9 year old are among the casualties
They need prayers.

Kuje

CNN is reporting that doctors are pulling ball bearings out of people that were injured. So they were added to make shrapnel.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/15/us/boston-marathon-explosions/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

HockeyGod


Blythe

Hospitals reported at least 129 injured.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57579671/two-explosions-rock-boston-marathon-dozens-injured/

For those who need to see where the explosions took place on a map:



I'm unsure if the JFK Library is or is not involved with the marathon explosions--it was a fire, not an explosion, and it's further away from the marathon sites. Does anyone have access to any sources about that fire?

ShadowFox89

 Officials are stating the fire is merely coincidental.
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Ephiral

JFK library is not connected. Third device was at the Mandarin, just a bit to the right of the "Race Route" marker on that map on the lower side of the street. Fourth, according to at least one report, was at St. James and Trinity, a couple of blocks from the first and not on the route at all.

Blythe

Good to know. Thank you both for the info. I knew about the Mandarin and the one at St. James and Trinity; I was bothered about the JFK Library fire because I'd seen conflicting new reports about whether or not it was connected.

Cyrano Johnson

Quote from: Blythe on April 15, 2013, 07:37:37 PMDoes anyone have access to any sources about that fire?

Nothing direct, but everything that I've seen claims JFK Library to have reported that the fire was unrelated.
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Chris Brady

Quote from: RubySlippers on April 15, 2013, 05:21:55 PM
Everyone in the country is going to overreact again lets put this in perspective we have over 300 million citizens and the impact in lost lives currently is under five and around fifty more were wounded. Its a blip on the screen and our security forces found at least one bomb and disarmed it. Its just not a big deal really but the bomb search was clearly not good before the event they had gaps.

That said I never sweat the things I have no control over things just happen some good and some bad in the world I suspect its domestic terrorism its Patriot's Day and Tax Day so it would be reasonable to assume.

Stalin said it best:

"1 death is a tragedy and 1 million is a statistic."
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Beguile's Mistress

Boston Herald .com article updated 11:20 pm

Says it was either a fire or an incendiary device.

AllieCat

Having a hard time sleeping tonight.. been seeing the explosion and the terror too much.. (I've been in that area too much).

Missy

I haven't really reacted very strongly personally. At least not the way I remember 9/11.

I was actually in the breakroom when it came on the news this afternoon at about six, si I got to see the President's address about it and I think he said it well. Basically let the authorities do their job and well find out who did it soon enough.

I don't always agree with the President, but I respected him for that today, even if it is really just his job.

Scribbles

Am I imagining things, or has there been a sudden surge of senseless violence over the last year?

Condolences to the families affected...
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DarklingAlice

Quote from: Scribbles on April 16, 2013, 05:51:39 AM
Am I imagining things, or has there been a sudden surge of senseless violence over the last year?

Condolences to the families affected...

Sadly, I think you are imagining things. The senseless violence is constant. We just have a short attention span for it and tend to forget each incident as it drops out of the news cycle.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


Mithlomwen

#35
My heart and prayers go out to all of the victims and their families.....as well as the entire city of Boston.   :'(

One thing I wish though, when events like this happen, that the media would not broadcast stuff about it 24/7.  Report that it happened, let everyone know the basics, and then shut up about it.  Don't speculate, don't assume, DON'T give the people responsible the satisfaction of seeing the destruction and carnage they've caused plastered on every news media available.  DON'T replay the events over and over.....don't continually show pictures of the victims in what is probably the most horrifying moment of their lives. 

/rant over

(sorry, needed to get that off of my chest)
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Empyrean

Totally agree with you Mith. Letting us know what happened is news, but we don't need six hours of replays with no new information while the talking heads consult their in-house experts and speculate.

Oniya

Quote from: Empyrean on April 16, 2013, 12:55:06 PM
Totally agree with you Mith. Letting us know what happened is news, but we don't need six hours of replays with no new information while the talking heads consult their in-house experts Magic 8-balls and speculate.

Fixed it.
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gaggedLouise

Tomorrow, though, is going to be (nearly) all Thatcher as for what gets shown live and then again in reprise on the news. The most widely televised funeral since Lady Di, and I'm certainly gonna watch some of it live.   O:)

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Cedarcliffe

My friends and I were at the marathon. We had plans to hang out by the finish line through the end of the race, but about 20 minutes before the first bomb went off, we decided to get out of the crush of people and go have a smoke--not cigarettes, so it took us awhile to find a place quiet enough. We were in Boston Common by the time the bombs went off.

Things were scary in Boston for a while after that. Lots of uncertainty, none of us really knew where was safe. We avoided the major roads (I later found out this was probably a good idea when a rumor came out about another undetonated bomb placed on Huntington Avenue) and kept a watch on the news on our phones. Seems like every emergency vehicle in Boston that wasn't already lining the perimeter of the marathon was making a beeline for the Back Bay. Lots of helicopters in the sky. I've also never seen so many unmarked vehicles with lights flashing and sirens blaring; seemed like all the Feds in Massachusetts came out of the woodwork. An old man walking by told me about a woman whose leg had been blown off right in front of him--he wasn't hurt, but I'm pretty sure he was in shock. He was way too calm.

It's been a few hours more than 24 and it seems like people everywhere here are all talking about one thing. Everyone's nervous, edgy, scared. No one seems to know what happened, and we're all angry at the media for blowing up the story with every rumor and leaving us to get lost in a torrent of inaccurate reports. I am personally particularly upset with the New York Times for sensationalizing the death count with a blatant lie shortly after the incident, when everyone was desperate for information. They told us twelve had died.

At this point everyone I know is praying in their respective ways -- for the perp(s) to be captured, for the injured to live, for the would-be copycats to reign in their crazy. For some sense to be made out of all of this.

Here's to closure.

Beguile's Mistress


Trieste

Quote from: Cedarcliffe on April 16, 2013, 07:22:27 PM
My friends and I were at the marathon. We had plans to hang out by the finish line through the end of the race, but about 20 minutes before the first bomb went off, we decided to get out of the crush of people and go have a smoke--not cigarettes, so it took us awhile to find a place quiet enough. We were in Boston Common by the time the bombs went off.

Things were scary in Boston for a while after that. Lots of uncertainty, none of us really knew where was safe. We avoided the major roads (I later found out this was probably a good idea when a rumor came out about another undetonated bomb placed on Huntington Avenue) and kept a watch on the news on our phones. Seems like every emergency vehicle in Boston that wasn't already lining the perimeter of the marathon was making a beeline for the Back Bay. Lots of helicopters in the sky. I've also never seen so many unmarked vehicles with lights flashing and sirens blaring; seemed like all the Feds in Massachusetts came out of the woodwork. An old man walking by told me about a woman whose leg had been blown off right in front of him--he wasn't hurt, but I'm pretty sure he was in shock. He was way too calm.

It's been a few hours more than 24 and it seems like people everywhere here are all talking about one thing. Everyone's nervous, edgy, scared. No one seems to know what happened, and we're all angry at the media for blowing up the story with every rumor and leaving us to get lost in a torrent of inaccurate reports. I am personally particularly upset with the New York Times for sensationalizing the death count with a blatant lie shortly after the incident, when everyone was desperate for information. They told us twelve had died.

At this point everyone I know is praying in their respective ways -- for the perp(s) to be captured, for the injured to live, for the would-be copycats to reign in their crazy. For some sense to be made out of all of this.

Here's to closure.

I can only imagine.

This isn't the time or the place to toot anyone's horn, but some of the best people that I know in law enforcement are combing the situation for any and all ways they can bring their expertise to bear on this.

I was pissed when it first happened, and worried. I have friends and family that have normal business in the area, and who run in or volunteer at the Marathon. Now that I know that my own family and friends are safe, I could probably describe my feelings as enraged, determined, and very focused on hauling the person or persons responsible before a jury. I have specifically chosen to focus on analysis of arson and explosives (my master's research is actually in post-blast residue analysis) because I loathe the indiscriminate nature of explosives and arson. They are not targeted weapons, and they are pretty much guaranteed to spread widespread hurt and anguish.

I cannot describe in words the multiple levels on which I am pissed and disgusted.

But the mentor I spoke to in my field has said to me, "You're not crazy, you're human. Okay, you're angry - now what are you going to do with it?" And I am only one of many.

ShadowFox89

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Callie Del Noire

One of my friends had a screaming hissy on facebook about how 'unsafe' it was to build a fertilzer factory so close to a retirement home, playground and school nearby.. till I pointed out it might have been there originally and urban sprawl moved out to it.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on April 18, 2013, 04:18:01 PM
One of my friends had a screaming hissy on facebook about how 'unsafe' it was to build a fertilzer factory so close to a retirement home, playground and school nearby.. till I pointed out it might have been there originally and urban sprawl moved out to it.

There was a violent blast at a factory for fireworks and gunpowder in Denmark a few years ago, right in a suburb. That particular mill had actually been started when there were already tenements and villas close by - though the factory buildings may have been older, built for another and less risky venture and bought by the fireworks company.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Moraline

Any word on if the Ricin poisoned letters sent to the government were possibly linked with the Boston bombings?

Oniya

"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
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Ephiral

...and now a single shooting incident at MIT, followed (just a couple minutes ago) by heavy gunfire and grenades in Watertown. What the hell.

ShadowFox89

 And people in the NBC comments saying that this is why we shouldn't have gun restrictions.. lord...
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Ephiral

Not that this justifies those arguments, but they've been using mostly (possibly entirely) police ordnance. The campus police officer's gun was stolen, and the vehicle they got away in was a state police SUV. As it stands right now, officers are establishing a 2-block perimiter centered on 98 Spruce St in Watertown. At least one officer has been pulled out by EMTs, and they said they may have seen a wounded suspect. Other suspect's whereabouts still unknown.

Just confirmed - one suspect is en route to hospital in custody.

Trieste

Hard to follow but it sounded like they said they have one person in custody, one person down at gunpoint, and possibly a third one still at large in the vehicle. *scowl*

Ephiral

#51
Third suspect and vehicle located, at gunpoint (possibly at Mt. Auburn & Bigelow?), is complying.

EDIT: Okay, they're referring to him as the "second suspect". Guy on the ground appears to have been a witness. Aaaand... they have the vehicle, but not the second suspect. Not sure who surrendered it.

gaggedLouise

The two guys in the FBI pics look vaguely Levantine to me, but that could mean any kind of family background from Egyptian to Kurdish, and of course it doesn't indicate they could not perfectly well be born and raised in the US.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Ephiral

#53
Police still sweeping for second suspect and undetonated explosives. Vehicle has NOT been approached and cleared yet. Mt. Auburn hospital just reported bomb threat.

EDIT: Just got the details on the hospital incident. Male placed a suspicious device in a trench nearby. Probably the missing second suspect. They're trying to get some officers cleared to investigate.

ShadowFox89

 Dear god... what the hell is wrong with this country....
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gaggedLouise

Not to mention that all but three of the senators who kept down the proposal for stricter gun control have been recipients of dough from the gun lobby. Some of them for many years (surprise!)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/18/pro-gun-groups-donated-senators

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

ShadowFox89

 The NRA loves lining the pockets of politicians. You could say that American politicians are like rusted cars with fresh paint jobs. They look clean on the outside, but are junk on the inside.

And that's all I'll say about that.
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meikle

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 12:58:08 AM
Dear god... what the hell is wrong with this country....
It's big.

Honestly, I think that's most of it.  We're huge, we've got more than a quarter billion people.  In this modern era, we've got the internet, we've got a population who have video recording devices on hand all the time, easy and fits into their pocket.  Things that used to be kept quiet aren't kept quiet anymore; we've got more people ever, which is more broken people to do terrible things.
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Ephiral

#58
Latest report on police scanners confirms that at least one Watertown suspect is connected to the Marathon bombing.
EDIT: BBC is claiming that the suspect in custody is one of the Marathon suspects. The guy on the loose is the one I mentioned above.
EDIT AGAIN: Looks like they've got him pinned down to at least a rough area. They're falling back to a perimeter, doing a quick exterior sweep, then waiting for daylight.

ShadowFox89

 Let's give it a day or two....

Though I find it ironic that Pelosi is claiming that "it's not like an episode of NCIS" and it turns out to be very much like an episode of NCIS...
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Oniya

Can we just turn Abby loose on them already?
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Avis habilis

As of this morning: perpetrated by two brothers from Chechnya, one shot dead after a car chase from Cambridge to Watertown, the other on the lam. Boston completely shut down. All transit halted. Nobody on the streets. Dead man had more explosives on him. They threw bombs at the cops.

Chris Brady

You guys have my prayers from Canada.  This is horrible to have to go through...

*Sends internet hugs to EVERYBODY!*
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Hellis

According to Reddit, they found a rocket in the basement. Someone climing to be the suspect on the loose posted online, threatnign to kill "all".

DarklingAlice

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 01:12:21 AM
The NRA loves lining the pockets of politicians. You could say that American politicians are like rusted cars with fresh paint jobs. They look clean on the outside, but are junk on the inside.

And that's all I'll say about that.

Which could be relevant to things like school shootings. But I doubt that even the NRA tries to extend 2nd ammendment rights to cover DIY bombs, poisons, and other terror devices.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


Hellis


Ephiral

#66
I am... kinda disturbed by the official version of events here. There are several details that appear to have been omitted or just don't match up.

-While there were homemade bombs involved, it was grenades being pitched from the vehicle. Which, by the way, was repeatedly reported as a state police SUV.
-Suspect #1 was wounded, but was at hospital and alive at least three hours after his capture. He most certainly did not die in the shootout, as I'm seing reported.
-Also no mention of the two officers wounded in Watertown?
-Rocket? In the basement of where? This didn't come up at all on police radio last night, though they did find a large homemade bomb in a residence in the shootout area.

And just what the hell happened with suspect #2? Last I heard, they had airtight perimiters around him and the truck - which was several blocks away from him. This would've been about 04:15 Eastern; I went to bed because they were pulling back and waiting for daylight.


Aislinn

Quote from: Oniya on April 19, 2013, 06:31:43 AM
Can we just turn Abby loose on them already?

Yus!!!

Love Abby so much....

I found this on facebook...and thought it was apt.

"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Deamonbane

The question I keep asking myself is... if this had happened in any other part of the world, would it have gotten this much press coverage?
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

ShadowFox89

 Probably not, but the US has never been a typical country.

We're the freaks of the world.
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Aislinn

I think we can safely assume that it wouldn't. Things like this happen all over the world all the time...

I don't know if its because generally things like this don't happen -here- or because of the media machine we have here.
"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Oniya

Quote from: Deamonbane on April 19, 2013, 02:51:26 PM
The question I keep asking myself is... if this had happened in any other part of the world, would it have gotten this much press coverage?

If it had been a less news-heavy venue (a major sporting event in a major city), would there have been incentive for the bomber to do it?
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Deamonbane

I mean... yeah, shit like that happens everywhere all the time, but does that somehow make it somehow more horrible because it happened in the States? I mean... 2 deaths and over 130 wounded isn't something to sneeze at, obviously, but honestly I have seen more deaths in a traffic accident... so should they start classifying drunk driving as an act of terror?
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

Oniya

Quote from: Deamonbane on April 19, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
I mean... yeah, shit like that happens everywhere all the time, but does that somehow make it somehow more horrible because it happened in the States? I mean... 2 deaths and over 130 wounded isn't something to sneeze at, obviously, but honestly I have seen more deaths in a traffic accident... so should they start classifying drunk driving as an act of terror?

More deaths, maybe, but hardly that number of wounded.  Not to mention, the drunk driver doesn't make a deliberate selection of a place/time with a large number of potential casualties to have that crash.  I think if this happened at a World Cup soccer match in Brazil, we'd be getting just as much coverage.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Deamonbane on April 19, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
I mean... yeah, shit like that happens everywhere all the time, but does that somehow make it somehow more horrible because it happened in the States? I mean... 2 deaths and over 130 wounded isn't something to sneeze at, obviously, but honestly I have seen more deaths in a traffic accident... so should they start classifying drunk driving as an act of terror?

It's the intent and the action that classifies a crime.
Call me Shadow
My A/A

Aislinn

Quote from: Deamonbane on April 19, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
I mean... yeah, shit like that happens everywhere all the time, but does that somehow make it somehow more horrible because it happened in the States? I mean... 2 deaths and over 130 wounded isn't something to sneeze at, obviously, but honestly I have seen more deaths in a traffic accident... so should they start classifying drunk driving as an act of terror?

Like Oniya says....major sporting event probably played into it.

I think our media machine has a lot to do with it, no doubt. But as well, this is getting world-wide attention from foreign media outlets (have talked to several of my friends in other countries) so it's not just a U.S. media blitz. For whatever reason, the foreign media is just as interested.
"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Deamonbane

*nods* Anyway, I didn't mean to sound callous or anything... what happened there was horrible, and if I was given the chance, I would happily wield the axe to behead the fucker...
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Aislinn on April 19, 2013, 03:08:11 PM
Like Oniya says....major sporting event probably played into it.

I think our media machine has a lot to do with it, no doubt. But as well, this is getting world-wide attention from foreign media outlets (have talked to several of my friends in other countries) so it's not just a U.S. media blitz. For whatever reason, the foreign media is just as interested.

Well, it's an event that has thousands of participants, many of them foreign. Do you think the Tour De France would have as much coverage, should someone decide to bomb the finish line?
Call me Shadow
My A/A

Oniya

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
Well, it's an event that has thousands of participants, many of them foreign. Do you think the Tour De France would have as much coverage, should someone decide to bomb the finish line?

Hell yeah.  I've seen the normal media coverage of the Tour.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Aislinn

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
Well, it's an event that has thousands of participants, many of them foreign. Do you think the Tour De France would have as much coverage, should someone decide to bomb the finish line?

This is very true. My point was simply that I don't believe it's being so highly covered -just- because its in the United States or because of the United States media.

Quote from: Deamonbane on April 19, 2013, 03:14:53 PM
*nods* Anyway, I didn't mean to sound callous or anything... what happened there was horrible, and if I was given the chance, I would happily wield the axe to behead the fucker...

I don't think you sounded like that....I think you are simply asking the same questions many of us are. It's hard to wrap your mind around it...
"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Chris Brady

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
Well, it's an event that has thousands of participants, many of them foreign. Do you think the Tour De France would have as much coverage, should someone decide to bomb the finish line?
Oh fuck yes.

We'd be hearing about it for YEARS.
My O&Os Peruse at your doom.

So I make a A&A thread but do I put it here?  No.  Of course not.

Also, I now come with Kung-Fu Blog action.  Here:  Where I talk about comics and all sorts of gaming

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Deamonbane on April 19, 2013, 02:51:26 PM
The question I keep asking myself is... if this had happened in any other part of the world, would it have gotten this much press coverage?

I dunno..the subway bombings in Madrid and London got pretty good coverage about this far along..now.. 3 months from now.. ask again.

You do realize the Boston Marathon is a WORLD event.. possibly the best known marathon there is. I've heard folks in Crete talk about it..and Spain.

consortium11

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
Do you think the Tour De France would have as much coverage, should someone decide to bomb the finish line?

Probably more.

Bombing the finish line of the Tour de France would involve bombing the Champs-Élysées, one of the most iconic and famous streets in the world. Beyond that it's a race featuring some incredibly high profile athletes (if not always for the right reasons) and the nature of the last day of the tour (which is basically a joyride where the leader and his domestiques have been known to open a bottle of champagne and drink it during the ride) outside of the last sprint everyone generally bunches together with the leader is in the middle of the peloton which means the most high profile target also happens to be the one which would cause the most death and injury.

Coverage for the last day of the Tour is pretty mad in-and-of itself, even without anything else.

Deamonbane

I usually don't pay attention to marathons, so I wouldn't be the one to ask... but yeah, at a major sporting event, say like the Super Bowl, FIFA world cup final, olympics... Yeah...  Let's hope they find the guy...
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

consortium11

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on April 19, 2013, 03:47:15 PM
You do realize the Boston Marathon is a WORLD event.. possibly the best known marathon there is. I've heard folks in Crete talk about it..and Spain.

Perhaps I'm a bit blinded by my Britishness here but I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Unlike many US sporting events there's almost no coverage of it over here; without these tragic events I'd have had little idea it was going on and certainly wouldn't know any details about the race.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: consortium11 on April 19, 2013, 03:54:17 PM
Perhaps I'm a bit blinded by my Britishness here but I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Unlike many US sporting events there's almost no coverage of it over here; without these tragic events I'd have had little idea it was going on and certainly wouldn't know any details about the race.

Back before I messed up my knee and I was up to 10 miles a day.. my chief (who was a marathoner) introduced me to a lot of folks..he'd run in Athens, London and Rome.. but everyone he talked with always talked about 'Heartbreak Hill' in the Boston marathon as the 'big point' of the runs they wanted to do.

consortium11

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on April 19, 2013, 04:06:44 PM
Back before I messed up my knee and I was up to 10 miles a day.. my chief (who was a marathoner) introduced me to a lot of folks..he'd run in Athens, London and Rome.. but everyone he talked with always talked about 'Heartbreak Hill' in the Boston marathon as the 'big point' of the runs they wanted to do.

In danger of taking us off-topic here so I'll spoiler.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I think it's one of those things where if you're a serious runner it's big news but it has limited range outside of that. To use the cycling example the Tour de France is big news but the other tours (even the other Grand Tours) are far less well known outside of cycling circles

gaggedLouise

#88
Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
Well, it's an event that has thousands of participants, many of them foreign. Do you think the Tour De France would have as much coverage, should someone decide to bomb the finish line?

The Russians have probably been looking VERY closely at their plans for next year's Winter Olympics in Sochi, all along - the security machine there is going to be massive and pervasive. The last thing they want is some terrorists mounting an attack there. Chechnya is just a few hundred miles away and there's been this string of major terrorist attacks in Russia itself by Chechyen groups a couple years ago - the school occupation at Beslan, residential houses blown up in Moscow and so on. With hundreds of dead.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

consortium11

Quote from: gaggedLouise on April 19, 2013, 05:34:17 PM
The Russians have probably been looking VERY closely at their plans for next year's Winter Olympics in Sochi, all along - the security machine there is going to be massive and pervasive. The last thing they want is some terrorists mounting an attack there. Chechnya is just a few hundred miles away and there's been this string of major terrorist attacks in Russia itself by Chechyen groups a couple years ago - the school occupation at Beslan, residential houses blown up in Moscow and so on. With hundreds of dead.

The number is almost certainly in the thousands; there were around 700 deaths from the apartment bombings and Beslan alone, let alone the slightly less high profile subways bombs, bombs on planes, bombings of government buildings and the like. And that's without looking into the somewhat grey area where organised crime and terrorism interweave.

It's also worth noting that a significant number of the foiled terrorists plots over the past few years have featured terrorists from Chechnya, Dagestan and other Soviet republics.

The Russian situation will be interesting, partly because there will be legitimate groups looking to use the occasion to hold protests as well. Russia will have to balance giving them reasonable freedom (albeit such freedom is always restricted during events such as this) and the security situation.

gaggedLouise

*nods* I should have written, hundreds at a time. And there's no doubt that some activist groups from the Caucasus and Central Asia, legitimate and more fringe violent, will see Sochi as their shop window to make the world aware of their grievances.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

TheGlyphstone

So in relevant news, it's looking like they've cornered him in a backyard in Watertown, hiding under a boat covered by a tarp.

gaggedLouise

Just heard on the BBC: a few years back, the FBI had interviewed the now dead brother because of concerns about possible ties to extremist movements; they had been tipped off on this by some foreign intelligence agency or diplomats (likely Russia?) The FBI talked to him, then closed the file and did nothing further.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Ephiral


Beguile's Mistress

Current coverage is alluding to the fact that the second suspect, the younger of the two brothers, is in custody.  The report is unconfirmed by anything other than police radio traffic.

Kuje

Quote from: Beguile's Mistress on April 19, 2013, 07:47:22 PM
Current coverage is alluding to the fact that the second suspect, the younger of the two brothers, is in custody.  The report is unconfirmed by anything other than police radio traffic.

ABC is confirming this.

consortium11

Police department have confirmed suspect is in custody.

gaggedLouise

Good that they managed to get him without more people getting injured, but getting him to talk and explain likely isn't going to be easy. His levels of adrenalin, anger and shock must be near eleven by now - not to mention the exhaustion he's likely to slump into.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Trieste

 I'm really annoyed that they're reporting this guy went to my undergrad. I mean, I'm in grad school and part of why I'm determined to do well is so they see the name "Trie's Undergrad School" on future transcripts and say "Oh, yeah, Trie was from there, she was a good student - that's a good school." And now, this fucker has associated guns and bombs with my fucking school. I feel like my months of work mean very little in the face of that.

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 19, 2013, 12:58:08 AM
Dear god... what the hell is wrong with this country....

There is a lot wrong with this country, but in this particular case, that is irrelevant. What is relevant here is what it wrong with these people. This country did not do this. Those people did.

Quote from: Aislinn on April 19, 2013, 02:24:20 PM
Yus!!!

Love Abby so much....

I found this on facebook...and thought it was apt.

Link doesn't work.

Ephiral

Federal custody, so barring another suspicious timeline incident, he might actually survive to trial.

Beguile's Mistress


Trieste

Oh, yes, federal custody is wonderful for this guy's health.

Massachusetts law does not impose capital punishment.

Federal law does.

*snarl*

Trieste

Sorry for the double post; we apparently posted at the same time.

Quote from: Beguile's Mistress on April 19, 2013, 08:06:46 PM


Aislinn's image.

... is not working, at least not for me. Even when I copy/paste into a new tab.

gaggedLouise

The image is working for me at every posting, must be something on the path to your display.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Kythia

Trie - its a tweet by @Happy_Gilmore:

QuoteBoston is probably the only major city that if you fuck with them, they will shut down the whole city...stop everything...and find you.
242037

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Trieste on April 19, 2013, 08:08:27 PM
Sorry for the double post; we apparently posted at the same time.

... is not working, at least not for me. Even when I copy/paste into a new tab.

Works for me. I think it's just you.....
Call me Shadow
My A/A

Trieste


Ephiral

Quote from: Trieste on April 19, 2013, 08:07:20 PM
Oh, yes, federal custody is wonderful for this guy's health.

Massachusetts law does not impose capital punishment.

Federal law does.

*snarl*
Not what I meant - what would this guy's honest chances of getting into a courtroom be if he were in a MA prison?

Aislinn

Sorry my picture caused so many problems. =-(

All I have to say is thank God he was taken alive. At least there is a chance to get answers.

"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Oniya

Quote from: Ephiral on April 19, 2013, 08:15:15 PM
Not what I meant - what would this guy's honest chances of getting into a courtroom be if he were in a MA prison?

Oh, he'd be in solit- I mean, protective custody from minute one.  He wouldn't have a good time of it (locked alone in a cell 23/7, one hour for solitary exercise, probably on suicide watch), but I think the Boston PD would make sure he had his day in court.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Trieste

Quote from: Ephiral on April 19, 2013, 08:15:15 PM
Not what I meant - what would this guy's honest chances of getting into a courtroom be if he were in a MA prison?

I'm sorry, my sarcasm wasn't directed at you in particular. I don't know what his chances are/would be but I don't think "He'll just die in prison anyway so we'll put him in the path of a punishment that is specifically not carried out by the place in which the attacks took place in order to preserve his life" ...

... is really all that great as far as logic goes.

I did mention to you that he'd essentially have to spend his life in solitary - and, frankly, that satisfies my personal thirst for vengeance just fine, actually.

gaggedLouise

Read somewhere online the memories of a UK soldier from the time his unit were given guard duty on Rudolf Hess - at that time the one and only inmate in the fortress of Spandau in NW Berlin. Their instructions ran "No smoking and no talking to Hess" even if few of them would even get closer to him than watching his strolls in the prison yard from one of the guard towers.

I can definitely see the same kind of instructions applying to this guy, after he gets sentenced.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

AllieCat

Thank God it's over. This whole week has me stressed out so much that I've just been, what's the word, drifting, detatched? Doesn't help my fiancee has been in California for a work class.. being able to talk to himover the phone is nice, but nothing beats you know, a cuddle when I need one? ANd trust me, I need one right now. This week.. I can't even.. I should stop now, sorry.

Aiden


I really think this thread needs a few smiles, I have been following the news (mostly via Reddit). Man I saw some things I wish I didn't see, Reddit is not afraid to post some very graphic things, from the images at the moment of the bombing (It just made me want to wish I didn't click) to the live feeds of the capture of both suspects.

I can only imagine what the people who call this city home.
Prayers/wishes out to the people and the community.

Aislinn

"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Beguile's Mistress

*pushes Aiden in the pool and laughs*

*flees*

AllieCat

*helps Aiden out of the pool and hands him a towel..*

*then pushes him back in*

*GIGGLES HAPPILY*

ShadowFox89

Call me Shadow
My A/A

AllieCat

*meeps*

meanie! *decides to float around and relax, since she's already wet, and her one towel went in the pool with Aiden*

Dashenka

Funny how it's world news when two Chezhnyan's bomb Boston but a lot of people seem to forget that in Russia, hundreds if not thousands have been killed by Chezhnya's bomb squad (Beslan school, Metro system, airport). I really hope that the US and Russia together can stop this group of seperatists from bombing more places and killing more people cause as they have proven, they are not only a danger to Russia anymore.

Glad they got one alive though and glad for the people in Boston that it's over now. Hope they can get on with their lives.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

ShadowFox89

 Honestly? I wouldn't put it past Putin to have set the two boys up.

But that's my cynical, tired side talking.
Call me Shadow
My A/A

Dashenka

Quote from: consortium11 on April 19, 2013, 06:06:02 PM
The number is almost certainly in the thousands; there were around 700 deaths from the apartment bombings and Beslan alone, let alone the slightly less high profile subways bombs, bombs on planes, bombings of government buildings and the like. And that's without looking into the somewhat grey area where organised crime and terrorism interweave.

It's also worth noting that a significant number of the foiled terrorists plots over the past few years have featured terrorists from Chechnya, Dagestan and other Soviet republics.

The Russian situation will be interesting, partly because there will be legitimate groups looking to use the occasion to hold protests as well. Russia will have to balance giving them reasonable freedom (albeit such freedom is always restricted during events such as this) and the security situation.


I wouldn't call the subway bombs less high profile then Beslan. Maybe in the world it was but in Moscow it certainly wasn't. Beslan is about a thousand kilometers away from Moscow and nobody really cares about that region of Russia anyway. Moscow though is the heart of Russia. Plus I was a bit too close for comfort that day.


Putin might have turned into a bit of a creepy guy but he wouldn't have recruited the boys himself. There's no point in aggrevating the US. Russia's doing a lot better in almost every way that matters for Russians than the US. (Note: Freedom of press is not (yet) a big issue for Russians)

However, the leader of Chezhnya is supported by the Russian government in order to keep them happy and they got billions of dollars to spend. So in potential, they might be a bigger threat than Al Qaida and the Taliban were.

As for the Olympics in Sochi, I think the 'criminals' are smart enough not to try anything. Everybody in the world will be watching and the moment they do anything, the entire Russian army will come down onto their little speck of paradise and erase them from the map. There's nobody in Russia or the world who will care about them even a little bit.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Aislinn

Quote from: Dashenka on April 20, 2013, 03:32:15 AM
Funny how it's world news when two Chezhnyan's bomb Boston but a lot of people seem to forget that in Russia, hundreds if not thousands have been killed by Chezhnya's bomb squad (Beslan school, Metro system, airport).

Once again, I don't think anyone is forgetting that. Perhaps the people that never knew it in the first place....but certainly not the world at large. I take exception to the idea that just because this happened in the U.S, we are making a big deal out of it. Not saying that's what you were doing but certainly some people have taken that tone. I just think the very idea is a bit unfair.
"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Dashenka

Quote from: Aislinn on April 20, 2013, 03:57:32 AM
Once again, I don't think anyone is forgetting that. Perhaps the people that never knew it in the first place....but certainly not the world at large. I take exception to the idea that just because this happened in the U.S, we are making a big deal out of it. Not saying that's what you were doing but certainly some people have taken that tone. I just think the very idea is a bit unfair.

I think some people did take that tone but for good reason. For example, a friend of mine who lives in the Netherlands was watching a movie. They interrupt the movie for an extra news bulletin. Had it happened in Mexico or Russia or Africa, they wouldn't have interrupted the movie.
It's a terrorist act on US soil so the whole world stops and cares. Not saying it's the fault of the US. Not at all it's just how the world works. That explosion in Texas the other days (more death, bigger explosion) wasn't even on the news. So it's understandable that some people are a bit biased.

It's what I meant with my previous comment. The world hasn't forgot about Beslan and other bombings, they just don't care as much as when it happens in the US, for which again, the US is not to blame.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Bloodied Porcelain

There was an earth quake in China within an hour of them catching the second bomber, but none of the major networks so much as mentioned the 100+ people who died in that, or the one in Iran earlier in the day that killed people. The bottom line is... if it happens in the US, it's treated and seen as more important, which is bull. A human life is a human life, and the region in which a person lives does not make their death more important than another elsewhere.
I want no ordinary lover. I want a storm. I want sleepless nights and endless conversations at four a.m. I want passion, I want madness.
I want someone who's able to make my whole body shiver from a distance and also pull me close to make sense of all my bones.

~ Bizarre, Beautiful, And Breathtaking ~
~ O/O ~ Seeking ~ A/A ~ Mirrors and Masks ~ Poetry ~
She walked with the universe on her shoulders and made it look like wings.

Dashenka

Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain on April 20, 2013, 04:08:30 AM
There was an earth quake in China within an hour of them catching the second bomber, but none of the major networks so much as mentioned the 100+ people who died in that, or the one in Iran earlier in the day that killed people. The bottom line is... if it happens in the US, it's treated and seen as more important, which is bull. A human life is a human life, and the region in which a person lives does not make their death more important than another elsewhere.

+1
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Aislinn

Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain on April 20, 2013, 04:08:30 AM
There was an earth quake in China within an hour of them catching the second bomber, but none of the major networks so much as mentioned the 100+ people who died in that, or the one in Iran earlier in the day that killed people. The bottom line is... if it happens in the US, it's treated and seen as more important, which is bull. A human life is a human life, and the region in which a person lives does not make their death more important than another elsewhere.

My problem comes in when people equate what the news does with an inflated American sense of self...which is not the case. In most cases, one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Dashenka

Quote from: Aislinn on April 20, 2013, 04:14:18 AM
My problem comes in when people equate what the news does with an inflated American sense of self...which is not the case. In most cases, one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

The Americans don't have that inflated sense of self, the world gives it to the Americans. Just as the majority of the world think of Russians as violent drunk imbeciles who can't drive a motor vehicle :) You shouldn't care (too much) what the world thinks of you.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Bloodied Porcelain

Apologies, numbers from the initial news report on the quake in China have been updated. 32 dead, 600+ injured. Still a far larger number than what happened in Boston but the major news networks didn't even mention it, so the point still stands.

Quote from: Aislinn on April 20, 2013, 04:14:18 AM
My problem comes in when people equate what the news does with an inflated American sense of self...which is not the case. In most cases, one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

You don't think Americans have an inflated sense of self? Really? Then what do you say to people who's comments on the news story online about the quake in China or the one in Iran are things like "sorry, too busy following the story about the bomber to read this." Perhaps you do not have an inflated sense of importance, but if you don't think most people in this country don't care about tragedies elsewhere because they're not "close to home", I think you're being a bit naive.

The news reports what will get them the best ratings. Had any major news network in the US had stopped reporting the stuff about the bomber being caught to mention an earth quake in China, most people would have lost their ever loving minds, because they don't care. It happened here, so it's more important.
I want no ordinary lover. I want a storm. I want sleepless nights and endless conversations at four a.m. I want passion, I want madness.
I want someone who's able to make my whole body shiver from a distance and also pull me close to make sense of all my bones.

~ Bizarre, Beautiful, And Breathtaking ~
~ O/O ~ Seeking ~ A/A ~ Mirrors and Masks ~ Poetry ~
She walked with the universe on her shoulders and made it look like wings.

Aislinn

Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain on April 20, 2013, 04:17:52 AM
Apologies, numbers from the initial news report on the quake in China have been updated. 32 dead, 600+ injured. Still a far larger number than what happened in Boston but the major news networks didn't even mention it, so the point still stands.

You don't think Americans have an inflated sense of self? Really? Then what do you say to people who's comments on the news story online about the quake in China or the one in Iran are things like "sorry, too busy following the story about the bomber to read this." Perhaps you do not have an inflated sense of importance, but if you don't think most people in this country don't care about tragedies elsewhere because they're not "close to home", I think you're being a bit naive.

The news reports what will get them the best ratings. Had any major news network in the US had stopped reporting the stuff about the bomber being caught to mention an earth quake in China, most people would have lost their ever loving minds, because they don't care. It happened here, so it's more important.

I choose to believe that a good deal of Americans have a better head on their shoulders then you are portraying. I watched several news stations tonight that had stories on the China quake in depth....

"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


ShadowFox89

Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain on April 20, 2013, 04:17:52 AM
You don't think Americans have an inflated sense of self? Really? Then what do you say to people who's comments on the news story online about the quake in China or the one in Iran are things like "sorry, too busy following the story about the bomber to read this." Perhaps you do not have an inflated sense of importance, but if you don't think most people in this country don't care about tragedies elsewhere because they're not "close to home", I think you're being a bit naive.

People posting in the online news comments are some of the stupidest, most bigoted idiots you can find. It's like claiming that Jersey Shore represents the entire New England coast.
Call me Shadow
My A/A

Bloodied Porcelain

#131
Quote from: Aislinn on April 20, 2013, 04:25:25 AM
I choose to believe that a good deal of Americans have a better head on their shoulders then you are portraying. I watched several news stations tonight that had stories on the China quake in depth....

Until Americans chose to behave better than they do, I'm taking them at face value. I'm quite tired of giving people the benefit of the doubt only to have it thrown back in my face. I swear if I hear "the USA is the greatest nation on earth" one more time I may lose my mind. It's so... self important and arrogant. I'm cool with "proud to be American" and that kind of thing, but when it goes so far as to elevate us above everyone else and claim that we're some pinnacle that everyone else should try to live up to, all I can do is facepalm.

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 20, 2013, 04:30:32 AM
People posting in the online news comments are some of the stupidest, most bigoted idiots you can find. It's like claiming that Jersey Shore represents the entire New England coast.

And the people I know in person who when I asked about the quake basically said they didn't care? People who I would like to think are decent people, but who are of the general mind set as the rest of the nation that things that happen here are somehow more important and worthy of their attention?


Note: I fully admit that I am about as far from an optimist as you can get. I call things as I see them and consider myself a realist. For good or for bad, if I notice trends, I'm going to make note of them and they're going to color my view of things until something comes along to prove me wrong. So far, nothing has proven me wrong on the general trend that a great number of Americans consider this country "better" than others and "more important", as if the rest of the world would cease to turn without us and should stop what they're doing to pay attention to our troubles. And yes, other countries totally indulge ours in that demand, doing just as they're expected, which is totally part of the problem, but I find the general American attitude toward these things to be far more obnoxious than anything else.
I want no ordinary lover. I want a storm. I want sleepless nights and endless conversations at four a.m. I want passion, I want madness.
I want someone who's able to make my whole body shiver from a distance and also pull me close to make sense of all my bones.

~ Bizarre, Beautiful, And Breathtaking ~
~ O/O ~ Seeking ~ A/A ~ Mirrors and Masks ~ Poetry ~
She walked with the universe on her shoulders and made it look like wings.

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain on April 20, 2013, 04:35:02 AMAnd the people I know in person who when I asked about the quake basically said they didn't care? People who I would like to think are decent people, but who are of the general mind set as the rest of the nation that things that happen here are somehow more important and worthy of their attention?

Honestly, I'm too tired to argue. But we're getting off topic here.
Call me Shadow
My A/A

Aislinn

Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain on April 20, 2013, 04:35:02 AM
Until Americans chose to behave better than they do, I'm taking them at face value. I'm quite tired of giving people the benefit of the doubt only to have it thrown back in my face. I swear if I hear "the USA is the greatest nation on earth" one more time I may lose my mind. It's so... self important and arrogant. I'm cool with "proud to be American" and that kind of thing, but when it goes so far as to elevate us above everyone else and claim that we're some pinnacle that everyone else should try to live up to, all I can do is facepalm.

So you are going to judge the group as a whole? So since you personally have issues with Americans, let's just lump them all together and consider their actions as a whole instead of individually? That's a dangerous path...

But I'm done. This is a topic for a reason. If people want to debate this, there are other places to do so. I'm not going to engage further and take away from the original intent of this thread.
"I am the one thing in life I can control
I am inimitable I am an original
I'm not falling behind or running late
I'm not standing still,
I am lying in wait.”


Bloodied Porcelain

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 20, 2013, 04:39:43 AM
Honestly, I'm too tired to argue. But we're getting off topic here.

Agreed, I apologize for derailing things.
I want no ordinary lover. I want a storm. I want sleepless nights and endless conversations at four a.m. I want passion, I want madness.
I want someone who's able to make my whole body shiver from a distance and also pull me close to make sense of all my bones.

~ Bizarre, Beautiful, And Breathtaking ~
~ O/O ~ Seeking ~ A/A ~ Mirrors and Masks ~ Poetry ~
She walked with the universe on her shoulders and made it look like wings.

gaggedLouise

It appears that Dzhokhar wasn't read his Miranda rights when he was arrested, I hope they remember to do that later so whatever he says in interrogation doesn't get compromised.  ::)

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2013/04/20/erin-bts-boston-bomber-suspects-miranda-rights.cnn

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Ephiral

They're claiming they don't need to under the public safety exception. Because somehow war rules and enemy combatant status apply to a US citizen on US soil. War with whom, exactly? Now that sounds like a tricky question, citizen...

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Ephiral on April 20, 2013, 08:41:11 AM
They're claiming they don't need to under the public safety exception. Because somehow war rules and enemy combatant status apply to a US citizen on US soil. War with whom, exactly? Now that sounds like a tricky question, citizen...

*nods* It would be good if the "unlawful combatant" tag could be used with more restraint than it was in the Bush years.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

DarklingAlice

Quote from: Bloodied Porcelain on April 20, 2013, 04:08:30 AM
There was an earth quake in China within an hour of them catching the second bomber, but none of the major networks so much as mentioned the 100+ people who died in that, or the one in Iran earlier in the day that killed people. The bottom line is... if it happens in the US, it's treated and seen as more important, which is bull. A human life is a human life, and the region in which a person lives does not make their death more important than another elsewhere.

Mmmm...I think this is at risk of conflating a few things. Everybody makes a much bigger deal out of the actions of humans than so called 'acts of god'. For instance, normal yearly influenza kills more US citizens every year than terrorism has killed since 9/11...yet the DHS is better funded than the CDC and more people consider terrorism a personal threat. It's just how we prioritize things.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


RubySlippers

I have one issue they didn't Mirandize the suspect, so they are risking evidence being thrown out and a remote chance a court could uphold his rights and toss out the state case as a result.

My guess the defense will use that going for a plea bargain there is a chance the suspect could not get life without parole over that mistake. Remote but why would they take the risk of not doing this by the book I don't get it?

Nimmy

This is speculation on my part, but news reports indicate that the suspect was bleeding and in poor condition. They may want to wait to read him his rights until the 1) know he's going to survive from his wounds and 2) is in a state where he can acknowledge that he heard and understood what he was just read.

Again, speculation and conjecture from someone who doesn't really have any experiences with law enforcement.

gaggedLouise

Agree it's very useful if they can make sure he survives (and without brain damage) or there won't be a whole lot they can ask him about. Hopefully he does come out of this soon and they'll be able to question him. It will be interesting to see if he'd admit anyone assisted them. Most of the time in this kind of terrorist attack or attempted killing for political reasons, there is some kind of supporting circle.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

consortium11

Quote from: RubySlippers on April 20, 2013, 09:37:19 AM
I have one issue they didn't Mirandize the suspect, so they are risking evidence being thrown out and a remote chance a court could uphold his rights and toss out the state case as a result.

My guess the defense will use that going for a plea bargain there is a chance the suspect could not get life without parole over that mistake. Remote but why would they take the risk of not doing this by the book I don't get it?

I'm no expert on US law but isn't there a general exception for Miranda with regards to terrorism?

Healergirl

Nimmy raised an excellent point:  It is not enough to merely read the suspect his Miranda rights, he must clearly and unambiguously acknowledge that he understands them.  If he is wounded, he is by definition at a reduced capacity, this has bitten more than one prosecution in the ass.

TheGlyphstone

#144
Quote from: Ephiral on April 20, 2013, 08:41:11 AM
They're claiming they don't need to under the public safety exception. Because somehow war rules and enemy combatant status apply to a US citizen on US soil. War with whom, exactly? Now that sounds like a tricky question, citizen...

...The Public Safety Exception is a completely different set of rules/exemptions than those governing enemy combatants/wartime rules. If he were an 'enemy combatant', he wouldn't be getting any Miranda rights at all, he'd be getting disappeared out to Guatanamo or Syria or something. This situation is exactly why the public safety exception was written and affirmed by the Supreme Court in the first place - in 1980, I don't see even the flimsiest argument why it's not appropriate here.
Quote
According to the Supreme Court, the public safety exception is triggered when police officers have an objectively reasonable need to protect the police or the public from immediate danger. Because the standard is objective, the availability of the exception does not depend on subjective motivation of the officers.
QuoteThe "public safety" exception to Miranda is a powerful tool with a modern application for law enforcement. When police officers are confronted by a concern for public safety, Miranda warnings need not be provided prior to asking questions directed at neutralizing an imminent threat, and voluntary statements made in response to such narrowly tailored questions can be admitted at trial. Once the questions turn from those designed to resolve the concern for safety to questions designed solely to elicit incriminating statements, the questioning falls outside the scope of the exception and within the traditional rules of Miranda.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/february2011/legal_digest

Pumpkin Seeds

Well was he technically arrested?  He may have been taken into custody but an actual arrest might not have been made.  I have seen many times where the police place a guard or detain someone in the hospital, but do not actually make the arrest until after that person is discharged.  I think this has something to do with processing the person.

Trieste

"Everyone in the whole entire country is exactly like the people that I know and dislike personally." Shine on you crazy diamond.

For everyone else, CNN is reporting that the recovered suspect has throat injuries and might not be able to say what went on. Me, I'm sure he can write it, though, or type it.

I can't believe there's even a question of whether or not a US citizen facing criminal charges in the US will get a lawyer, Miranda rights read, etc. I guess several senators released a statement calling for him not to be given a lawyer and whatnot, among them John McCain. That one made me go holy what the fuck - I realize the US is probably not going to put the bombing suspect through what McCain had to endure but you would think that he would be concerned with giving other people civil rights.

Then again, he is a Republican, maverick or not. >.>

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Trieste on April 20, 2013, 06:56:34 PM
"Everyone in the whole entire country is exactly like the people that I know and dislike personally." Shine on you crazy diamond.

For everyone else, CNN is reporting that the recovered suspect has throat injuries and might not be able to say what went on. Me, I'm sure he can write it, though, or type it.

I can't believe there's even a question of whether or not a US citizen facing criminal charges in the US will get a lawyer, Miranda rights read, etc. I guess several senators released a statement calling for him not to be given a lawyer and whatnot, among them John McCain. That one made me go holy what the fuck - I realize the US is probably not going to put the bombing suspect through what McCain had to endure but you would think that he would be concerned with giving other people civil rights.

Then again, he is a Republican, maverick or not. >.>

I share that view Trie, but considering the guy had only become a U.S. citizen last year (his brother wasn't one) there might be hotheads who would want him to be stripped of his citizenship right here and now, before there is any questioning.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Trieste

I know.

But if we were only citizens until and unless it becomes inconvenient, the protections over citizens wouldn't mean very much, would they?  ::) I'm willing to bet that Beth Israel is getting a metric buttload of social engineering attempts right now by media and other interested parties.

gaggedLouise

The petition to expel Piers Morgan is what crossed my mind. For what? for criticizing the gun lobby in a tv discussion, of course. I don't know if Morgan is a U.S. citizen but it shows how fast things can turn around even for a front-ranks TV personality.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

RubySlippers

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on April 20, 2013, 11:04:51 AM
...The Public Safety Exception is a completely different set of rules/exemptions than those governing enemy combatants/wartime rules. If he were an 'enemy combatant', he wouldn't be getting any Miranda rights at all, he'd be getting disappeared out to Guatanamo or Syria or something. This situation is exactly why the public safety exception was written and affirmed by the Supreme Court in the first place - in 1980, I don't see even the flimsiest argument why it's not appropriate here.
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/february2011/legal_digest

I have one the law enforcement and the FBI among others said they worked alone and with both eliminated as threats what is the security risk they are basing this on. And if he wakes up and insists on a lawyer they have no grounds to refuse unless they placed him under Military code of laws and he is a naturalized American he has rights.

This could be an issue if they argue in court a testimony collected is to be used and the defense says they had no grounds by the government own statements to assume an immediate risk, a judge could toss the evidence out then what?

Just pointing out this should be handled with the assumption all the defendants right be upheld to the book just in case.

consortium11

Quote from: Trieste on April 20, 2013, 06:56:34 PM
I can't believe there's even a question of whether or not a US citizen facing criminal charges in the US will get a lawyer, Miranda rights read, etc. I guess several senators released a statement calling for him not to be given a lawyer and whatnot, among them John McCain. That one made me go holy what the fuck - I realize the US is probably not going to put the bombing suspect through what McCain had to endure but you would think that he would be concerned with giving other people civil rights.

Then again, he is a Republican, maverick or not. >.>

The Republicans may be getting the press but in reality it's Obama and his administration you need to look at for corrupting Miranda.

Specifically you need to look at the memo Holder sent out in October 2010 and specifically the part that states:

3. There may be exceptional cases in which, although all relevant public safety questions have been asked, agents nonetheless conclude that continued unwarned interrogation is necessary to collect valuable and timely intelligence not related to any immediate threat, and that the government's interest in obtaining this intelligence outweighs the disadvantages of proceeding with unwarned interrogation.

Put simply, under the Obama administration they never have to read someone their Miranda rights as long as there is other information (even not relating to an immediate threat) they want.

Trieste

It clearly wasn't obvious so I should probably clarify that the last sentence of that post was tongue-in-cheek.  :-)

RubySlippers

Okay but what if the suspect wakes up and with witnesses and a recording system his first words are: I will not talk before I have a lawyer.

The instant that happens by Constitutional rights and precedent he has right to a legal defense and they said this would be a civilian system matter he has rights. If they refuse any judge would be compelled to toss out everything said after that if under duress at all.

This could get very sticky that is all I am saying unless every right he has is upheld.

Oniya

Then they get him a lawyer.  That's what we're supposed to do in this country.

"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Dashenka

Chezhnyan terrorists don't deserve lawyers. Execute them in public in the half time of a big sports match.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Scribbles

I can understand the anger but I personally believe that the best way to treat a terrorist is with an even hand. Otherwise, you'll just end up creating a martyr.
AA and OO
Current Games: Stretched Thin, Very Little Time

Oniya

John Adams himself defended the British soldiers that were a part of the 'Boston Massacre'. 

Other than that - what Scribbles said.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

gaggedLouise

#158
I fully understand your anger, Dashenka, but having the guy hanged (in public, or whatever way it's done) without any attempt at a fair trial is going to inspire new guys doing the same thing.

Quote from: Oniya on April 21, 2013, 09:47:08 AM
Then they get him a lawyer.  That's what we're supposed to do in this country.


Yes, he should have a lawyer for sure, but what kind of truth will they get from him? He's the only surviving witness at this point who can offer any insight into what drove the plot, under U.S. law he can't be accused of perjury or anything substantial even if he tells a bunch of tall tales, and nothing that comes only from his testimony can be decisive in sentencing him, right? Also he has damn little to lose by anything he does, especially if he was thinking of becoming a martyr all along. Plus he may never be able to talk again, meaning he'd have to be heard by him offering replies in writing. And to boot, he's likely to be angry when he wakes up. It's going to be a *very* tough, and spmetimes boring,  trial.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Dashenka on April 21, 2013, 10:25:04 AM
Chezhnyan terrorists don't deserve lawyers. Execute them in public in the half time of a big sports match.

You know the difference between a partisan, freedom fighter and terrorist?

Damn little. Actions from one angle in one time are 'patriotic' and 'terroristic' in another.

You know what lets us keep that line from fading?

Respecting our own laws and practices. We keep to the rules when they don't. We don't whittle away at them. We don't get fucking selective with them. We DO NOT every put up a barrier between us and them. We try them in the light of day by the rules we profess to follow. We find them guilty.

Then we sentence them by the laws we put up. And we don't EVER stoop to their level.


I know some of our allies play fast and loose with the law. That it's possible to face jail time without representation, the ability to face our accussers or even due process.

If we do that..those that kill the innocent in our lands and theirs.. win. We ARE the villain they make us out to be.

Following the law ain't supposed to be easy. Fair isn't easy. Just isn't always what you want it to be. But then..when it's your turn to face the press of the law.. you know you'll get the fairness and justice you merit. 

Trieste

Quote from: gaggedLouise on April 21, 2013, 12:24:27 PM
I fully understand your anger, Dashenka, but having the guy hanged (in public, or whatever way it's done) without any attempt at a fair trial is going to inspire new guys doing the same thing.

Yes, he should have a lawyer for sure, but what kind of truth will they get from him? He's the only surviving witness at this point who can offer any insight into what drove the plot, under U.S. law he can't be accused of perjury or anything substantial even if he tells a bunch of tall tales, and nothing that comes only from his testimony can be decisive in sentencing him, right? Also he has damn little to lose by anything he does, especially if he was thinking of becoming a martyr all along. Plus he may never be able to talk again, meaning he'd have to be heard by him offering replies in writing. And to boot, he's likely to be angry when he wakes up. It's going to be a *very* tough, and spmetimes boring,  trial.

I think you might be referring to the fifth amendment against self-incrimination. If you are, it doesn't quite have the wide reach described here. When testifying on the stand or talking with police, he can invoke his fifth amendment rights. If he answers, however, it can be used against him - which is why that is part of the Miranda warning. "Anything you say can be used against you in court." Also, this is a nuance so you may want to confirm it with a lawyer, but I believe you cannot be compelled to testify at your own trial. You can be compelled to testify at someone else's trial and then that testimony can be used against you if I'm remembering correctly. So he has some rights against self-incrimination but he doesn't have a magic "I can say anything and not have it admissible in court" exemption.

Well, that is, unless they violate his rights as a citizen.

Dashenka

#161
Quote from: Callie Del Noire on April 21, 2013, 12:29:47 PM
You know the difference between a partisan, freedom fighter and terrorist?

Damn little. Actions from one angle in one time are 'patriotic' and 'terroristic' in another.

You know what lets us keep that line from fading?

Respecting our own laws and practices. We keep to the rules when they don't. We don't whittle away at them. We don't get fucking selective with them. We DO NOT every put up a barrier between us and them. We try them in the light of day by the rules we profess to follow. We find them guilty.

Then we sentence them by the laws we put up. And we don't EVER stoop to their level.


I know some of our allies play fast and loose with the law. That it's possible to face jail time without representation, the ability to face our accussers or even due process.

If we do that..those that kill the innocent in our lands and theirs.. win. We ARE the villain they make us out to be.

Following the law ain't supposed to be easy. Fair isn't easy. Just isn't always what you want it to be. But then..when it's your turn to face the press of the law.. you know you'll get the fairness and justice you merit.


I fail to see how blowing up people in Boston and Moscow is fighting for freedom or patriotic in any way. It's the trials and everything that makes them do it again. They can't die. They get arrested, get a fair trial and then go to prison for the rest of their life. Sounds like a fair deal. Family's rich, they get their 73 virgins and some 50 years free food and shelter.

Yes that will stop any desperate terrorist from doing it again.

I understand the US is bound by law and stuff like that but what happened to that law at Guantanamo Bay? Or when Bin Laden was to be trialled? Your the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Dashenka on April 21, 2013, 01:25:09 PMYour the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)

Except we aren't? Except "bending the rules" is what every country does, whether or not it comes out to public knowledge? Except.... I could keep going, but the US is hardly unique. And hardly the first to do something like Guantanamo (see also: how Australia was formed)
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Trieste

Quote from: Dashenka on April 21, 2013, 01:25:09 PM

I fail to see how blowing up people in Boston and Moscow is fighting for freedom or patriotic in any way. It's the trials and everything that makes them do it again. They can't die. They get arrested, get a fair trial and then go to prison for the rest of their life. Sounds like a fair deal. Family's rich, they get their 73 virgins and some 50 years free food and shelter.

Yes that will stop any desperate terrorist from doing it again.

I understand the US is bound by law and stuff like that but what happened to that law at Guantanamo Bay? Or when Bin Laden was to be trialled? Your the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)

While what you're saying makes sense, you're missing the point a little bit. It doesn't actually matter what they do as much as it matters what we do in response. The US has done some things I'm not proud of, certainly, but to me and to citizens like me it is a matter of character. We can be better than that and I always will advocate that we do so.

Dashenka

Quote from: Trieste on April 21, 2013, 01:39:25 PM
While what you're saying makes sense, you're missing the point a little bit. It doesn't actually matter what they do as much as it matters what we do in response. The US has done some things I'm not proud of, certainly, but to me and to citizens like me it is a matter of character. We can be better than that and I always will advocate that we do so.

I understand and accept that but all that is achieved by giving the man a fair trial is that basically put him on a stage and give him his moments of fame. For example Anders Breivik, who killed all those young people in Oslo, Norway. Norway being one of the most open and fair countries in the world gave him a fair trial where he could say what he wanted and why he did it, thus giving him what he wants. Attention and to tell his story. No matter how sick and twisted there will always be people who sympathise with him and will copy or follow him. Had they just shot him right there on his little island, everybody would see him as a crazy psychopath.

What happens to this Charnaev guy is that during his trial he will explain why he did it and somewhere on the planet people will think.. hmm the guy is actually right, I'm gonna do that too. So by giving him a fair trial, in my opinion, you are making it worse. This isn't just a homecide or a traffic offence we're talking about here.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Ephiral

Quote from: Dashenka on April 21, 2013, 01:47:40 PM
I understand and accept that but all that is achieved by giving the man a fair trial is that basically put him on a stage and give him his moments of fame. For example Anders Breivik, who killed all those young people in Oslo, Norway. Norway being one of the most open and fair countries in the world gave him a fair trial where he could say what he wanted and why he did it, thus giving him what he wants. Attention and to tell his story. No matter how sick and twisted there will always be people who sympathise with him and will copy or follow him. Had they just shot him right there on his little island, everybody would see him as a crazy psychopath.

What happens to this Charnaev guy is that during his trial he will explain why he did it and somewhere on the planet people will think.. hmm the guy is actually right, I'm gonna do that too. So by giving him a fair trial, in my opinion, you are making it worse. This isn't just a homecide or a traffic offence we're talking about here.
Your logic would hold if you could point to a single copycat of Breivik anywhere ever.

Scribbles

Dashenka,

The people that indoctrinate the young (or foolish) into becoming terrorists absolutely love it when their enemies show any signs of hypocrisy as it allows them to point toward specific events and say, "See, their laws and words are so pretty but their people are savage and show their true colours in their bloodthirsty actions." We simply can't afford to give these propagandists ammunition.
AA and OO
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Moraline

I think first there should be a hearing to determine if this was an act of terrorism or a criminal act. The way I see it, those things are not the same.

If he's a criminal or a deranged lunatic then he should be treated with civilian laws.

However, in my opinion these guys were terrorists. He should be treated as an enemy combatant.

Presuming they were terrorists - They thought it through, they planned it, then they executed an act of terror to declare war on the people of the US. These aren't a couple of people that robbed a bank and deserve a chance at rehabilitation (which is what the penal system is for.) They weren't a couple of psychopaths and the survivor doesn't need counseling.

He should be sent to a military base where information is extracted from him by whatever means are allowed/necessary then he should be shoved into a cell some place along with other terrorist/enemy soldiers until he is sent to trial then executed for war crimes.

Trieste

Except the fact of the matter is that he is not an enemy combatant - he is a US citizen. As a US citizen, I fully expect and deserve that my rights will be respected if ever I was brought into custody. I expect the same for other US citizens. As soon as we granted him citizenship, his right to a lawyer, his right against self-incrimination, his right to a speedy trial, his right to face his accusers - all of those were signed, sealed, and delivered.

Quote from: Moraline on April 21, 2013, 05:13:00 PM
I think first there should be a hearing to determine if this was an act of terrorism or a criminal act. The way I see it, those things are not the same.

I believe that's what the trial is supposed to do - going into the trial, law enforcement decides what laws he potentially broke. Then throughout the trial, it's determined whether he actually broke them. That's... that's the whole point of a trial. >.>

Scribbles

Trieste,

Speaking of which, I'm really hoping the trial goes smoothly. My heart's in knots just at the thought of it.
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Moraline

I understand your desire to protect the rights of citizens.

Perhaps they should give him a regular trial but if he's seen as a terrorist and not as a common criminal then perhaps he should be treated differently? Maybe?

Of course if he is part of a larger terrorist group and he goes to trial... then during the weeks/months that it takes for the trail to play out... all of his terrorist buddies will be long gone and off planning to blow up more innocent children.

In my opinion, terrorists should not be treated like common criminals. To much is at stake to be that lax.

Trieste

I think that if he is guilty of the bombing, he should be treated like the murderer he is. He took peoples' lives away. I also think he's only 19 and 19 year olds are not always the best at recognizing the effects they have on other people. I sincerely hope that, if he is guilty, maturity only brings with it a nigh-unbearable burden of guilt. I'm personally okay with that.

He messed with my home and I want him to pay. I do. But that's not what the justice system is for, and that's not why I'm working my ass off to contribute what I can to the justice system. The justice system is there to keep him the fuck away from other people, at the very least. I know it's sort of up in the air as to whether the US justice system is rehabilitative or punitive (and it really needs to make up its mind). And if he has buddies that are planning to commit further crimes, then we need to catch up with them - but I think it's a mistake to think of the justice system as being a deterrent, not for crimes like this. Yeah, okay, you don't steal gum at the grocery store because it might be an inconvenience. You don't speed gratuitously because you might get pulled over. But making a bomb and carrying out the kind of crimes that have been committed here? I don't think anything, up to and including the death penalty, really counts as a deterrent there.

Quote from: Scribbles on April 21, 2013, 06:06:45 PM
Trieste,

Speaking of which, I'm really hoping the trial goes smoothly. My heart's in knots just at the thought of it.

I hope so, too.

RubySlippers

Simply put the US Constitution is not there to make the governments life easier, its largely there to limit the government and affirm the rights of a citizen to in this case due process is fully observed and this is supposed to apply to non-citizens there are rare exceptions POWs are under the Geneva Conventions. I never bought the enemy combatants marker if they are not POW or partisan fighters as per the Geneva Conventions they are criminals and criminals should be dealt with under either US law OR international criminal law in the Hague courts.

Kythia

Quote from: Moraline on April 21, 2013, 06:14:32 PM
In my opinion, terrorists should not be treated like common criminals. To much is at stake to be that lax.

The issue there is that, as Callie has stated, its not an unambiguous definition.  What if Iran - to pick a country at pseudo random - started defining terms like "terrorist", "enemy combatant" etc. as people working against their government?  Set up a Guantanomo or similar, or started not giving trials, to US Citizens?  I dont think anyone would shrug and say "well, turnabout is fair play" but equally the US is highly visible.  And as a wise spider mutant once said "With great power comes great responsibility".  The best reason for following rules is so that everyone else does, IMHO.

I get that in this case he's a US Citizen, Iran isn't involved, etc.  I'm just talking about the wider point.

242037

Callie Del Noire

#174
Quote from: Dashenka on April 21, 2013, 01:25:09 PM.

I understand the US is bound by law and stuff like that but what happened to that law at Guantanamo Bay? Or when Bin Laden was to be trialled? Your the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)

emphasis mine. This from the person who is living in London. I find it ironic given that if the US justice system is modeling itself after anyone's questionable legal practices its the UK.  look into phrases like 'Diplock Courts' , Prevention of Terrorism Act (Northern Ireland) (Starting around the 1970s on)

The UK has LONG had the legal practice of locking up accused terrorists with little to no sustainable proof in a normal court. Or with the abilty to face (or even cross examine) your accusers, or retain legal counsel. Or in some cases even attend your own trial.

I have spoken against these practices here in the US. Got called a 'softie' and 'commie' for speaking out against the patriot act in the early part of this century. Had a Chief Petty Officer try and get my clearance pulled for speaking out, off shift and out of uniform, against it.

My biggest issues with the Bush 2 White House had to deal with our legal stance on terror and what it could lead to. Last years NDAA terrifies me more than words. That you can 'automagically' lose the right to trial, council, or even to know your charges and be sentence in absentia is terrifying. Who defines what an 'enemy' of the government?  How long till that definition goes from a single sentence to a long convoluted phrase that can be summed up as 'anyone that the government thinks will oppose them in anyway."

That being said.. and my comments on the UK legal system aside.. let me sum it up like this.

Are we at war with his country? No..he's an American Citizen.

He's committed mass murder. Try him. Put him in a super-max and let him rot. Or put a needle in his arm.

When you let the person doing the crimes set the tier on which he or she they are considered at. You let the person doing the crime set the battle ground for consideration. You lose standing in the public eye and in future cases. The UK learned that with the hunger strikers in Northern Ireland.

Retribution

I have mixed feelings on it all: 1) I find it hard to view terrorists as anything other than those engaged in an act of war. That being the case it is hard to try enemy soldiers when they charge the lines and last I checked POWs do not get a trail. 2) I fully support the death penalty and this fellow deserves death if anyone does. 3) Yes, he is a US citizen so I believe you will find a provision in the US constitution that addresses treason if one wished to approach it that way. But you get a trial for that. 4) Suspension of rights well troubles me even in my mostly conservative heart.

So this is complicated and I think that is partly by terrorist design. Look at the discussion here and it shows how they sew discontent. I firmly believe many of the enemies of the US use the fact that the US mostly plays by the rules and they do not to their full advantage. We are right now forgetting the victims while worrying about this fellow's rights. This shows that in that how do you address a terrorist?  If they are a foreign citizen then well I am sorry Bin Laden was dealt with in exactly the right way shot like the rabid animal he was. In the case of this fellow I suspect the enemy combatant tag is being applied because there is a wish to get military intelligence from him without having to publish that information publicly. Remember part of why terrorism succeeds is it blurs the line between military and civilian matters and causes these issues.

What I would like to see is that he is interrogated sans lawyer so intelligence may be extracted and put to use preventing furthers acts such as this. Then once that is done try him for treason with legal representation. If found guilty which I think he most likely will be exterminate him. Harsh yes, but I have no use for someone he blows up an eight year old child. And that is just the most striking to someone who is a father like me of the many reprehensible things that happened that day. Lives shattered and yes the kid is only 19, but you are a legal adult at age 18 so he should face the music like an adult. Our legal system is too slow, too cumbersome, and too complicated. It gives criminals and animals too many easy outs and I am quite tired of it. Or rather lets them delay things when their victims never had that luxury.

Trieste

I realize that what I'm about to say can be very badly misinterpreted and I'm trying to phrase it carefully. Please bear with me.

Insisting on justice and a fair trial for the accused does not have anything to do with the victims or their families, except for the fact that the victims will be possibly involved in the trial. The fact that they are affected by this man's actions does not give them the right to have more say about what is done with him than any other citizen. It is not forgetting the victims to want to ensure that this man is treated according to the law.

consortium11

Quote from: Trieste on April 21, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
I realize that what I'm about to say can be very badly misinterpreted and I'm trying to phrase it carefully. Please bear with me.

Insisting on justice and a fair trial for the accused does not have anything to do with the victims or their families, except for the fact that the victims will be possibly involved in the trial. The fact that they are affected by this man's actions does not give them the right to have more say about what is done with him than any other citizen. It is not forgetting the victims to want to ensure that this man is treated according to the law.

Getting slightly jurisprudential here, there's actually an argument for purposefully excluding the victims and their families' wishes and thoughts in the interests of justice (as opposed to vengeance) on the basis that they're too personally involved. To give a simple example, if someone beat up say my mum I may want them castrated, crippled and then put to death painfully... but that's because it's my mum who got hurt. Looking at it objectively I don't think that should be the punishment dealt out.

Retribution

Fair and reasonable are two entirely differing things. For example in my area there are two fellows accused of murdering an entire family. It has now been six years since the crime and still no trail and all I can say about that is give me a break. Or on a more infamous level the Trevon Martin killing still has not gone to trail. There is a point where this gets ridiculous. And some things are so heinous they certainly deserve the express lane.

I am not related to anyone involved in the Boston bombing. But ignoring what was done to those people is just plain wrong. The degree of the crime should have a bearing and we should not be spending forever sorting out the punishment. At least with Oklahoma City the perpetrator was put to death like he deserved in relatively short order.

consortium11

Quote from: Retribution on April 22, 2013, 04:18:35 AM
At least with Oklahoma City the perpetrator was put to death like he deserved in relatively short order.

Six years and mainly because McVeigh dropped all his appeals after the first failed.

meikle

Quote from: Scribbles on April 21, 2013, 12:08:58 PM
I can understand the anger but I personally believe that the best way to treat a terrorist is with an even hand. Otherwise, you'll just end up creating a martyr.
And a police state.  That'll be fun.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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Callie Del Noire

I am not supporting the fact that we need to support the rule of law and or due process because I like these people or condone their acts in any manner but for what could be said as a more selfish reason. What we do in the punishment of them for their actions could eventually be the manner in which those I care for or I myself get treated.  What we condone today against another is he precedent that we are facing tomorrow. We are, supposedly, all the same in front of the law.

Chris Brady

Actually, the best thing to do would be to treat this as a common criminal case.  By labeling him a "Terrorist" you ARE legitimizing his view in other's eyes as someone of import.

Don't do that.  Strip him and everyone of any sense of that.  He's just another hoodlum off the street.  Yes, the magnitude of the crime is severe, and he should be punished for it, but leave it at that.
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Oniya

Quote from: Chris Brady on April 22, 2013, 10:03:12 AM
Actually, the best thing to do would be to treat this as a common criminal case.  By labeling him a "Terrorist" you ARE legitimizing his view in other's eyes as someone of import.

Don't do that.  Strip him and everyone of any sense of that.  He's just another hoodlum off the street.  Yes, the magnitude of the crime is severe, and he should be punished for it, but leave it at that.

I kind of like this idea.  Put the entire burden on him as well - the planning, the construction of the bombs - treat him and his brother as 'lone nutjobs' and see what happens.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Beguile's Mistress

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on April 22, 2013, 07:58:47 AM
I am not supporting the fact that we need to support the rule of law and or due process because I like these people or condone their acts in any manner but for what could be said as a more selfish reason. What we do in the punishment of them for their actions could eventually be the manner in which those I care for or I myself get treated.  What we condone today against another is he precedent that we are facing tomorrow. We are, supposedly, all the same in front of the law.

+1

One of our co-workers was all for swift and immediate arrest, conviction and punishment until his son was caught on surveillance tape vandalizing a store.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Chris Brady on April 22, 2013, 10:03:12 AM
Actually, the best thing to do would be to treat this as a common criminal case.  By labeling him a "Terrorist" you ARE legitimizing his view in other's eyes as someone of import.

Don't do that.  Strip him and everyone of any sense of that.  He's just another hoodlum off the street.  Yes, the magnitude of the crime is severe, and he should be punished for it, but leave it at that.

Very well said. I liked the fact that the IRA terrorists in the 'H' blocks weren't accorded special standing when I lived in Ireland... though I disliked what I have heard about the actual prison conditions and I've already talked extensively about my thoughts on the UK's take on 'due process' in terror cases.

We exist in a society of laws and precedence. I agree that by refusing to further empower them and trying them for their acts, not their justifications, we are pursuing law and justice. I'm am.. still.. reserved about the hate crime laws so more 'special case' laws makes me nervouse.

ShadowFox89

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/22/17860373-boston-marathon-bomb-suspect-charged-with-using-weapon-of-mass-destruction?lite

2 things gleaned from this:

1) He is being charged as using a WMD

2) He's not going to be charged as an enemy combatant.

Wait, sorry, 3 things.

3) The people who comment in the NBC discussions are complete idiots.
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TheGlyphstone

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on April 22, 2013, 01:34:11 PM


3) The people who comment in the NBC discussionson the internet are complete idiots.

Fixed your typo for you, good sir.

Ephiral

..wait, what? Is there any actual meaning to the term "weapon of mass destruction" any more? How exactly does US law work with terms like this? (Up here, these things have to be very clearly defined at the beginning of the statute.) I'm very confused.

Chris Brady

Do you guys think that a petition to make sure these two criminals are treated AS criminals, as opposed to trying to make this out to a 'terrorist attack' would get any traction?
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ShadowFox89

 I doubt it will make any difference.

And I don't know how this could be considered a WMD, as far as we know no biological, chemical, or radioactive material was used in the explosives. Which precludes it under US law from being considered a WMD.
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Moraline

They say in the video linked above that the charge of WMD is a federal legal term to define pretty much any bomb.

The charge of WMD allows the possibility of the prosecution to seek the death penalty via federal courts in the case (because there is no Death Penalty in Massachusetts.)


Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Moraline on April 22, 2013, 03:06:29 PM
They say in the video linked above that the charge of WMD is a federal legal term to define pretty much any bomb.

The charge of WMD allows the possibility of the prosecution to seek the death penalty via federal courts in the case (because there is no Death Penalty in Massachusetts.)

Well I think it should be persued as a state crime.. TILL such time as you can prove it crosses state lines. If the conspiracy/planners did this across state lines.. that makes it federal.

Moraline

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on April 22, 2013, 03:22:16 PM
Well I think it should be persued as a state crime.. TILL such time as you can prove it crosses state lines. If the conspiracy/planners did this across state lines.. that makes it federal.
It's too late. He's already been officially charged. They read those charges to him in his hospital bed.  (That's what the video above is all about.)

Ephiral

That's, uh, kinda disgusting. "The justice system he actually violated won't kill him, so let's stretch definitions until we can kill him!"

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: Chris Brady on April 22, 2013, 02:44:35 PM
Do you guys think that a petition to make sure these two criminals are treated AS criminals, as opposed to trying to make this out to a 'terrorist attack' would get any traction?
It'd get you accused of being a damn dirty commie terrorist sympathizer, probably.

Beguile's Mistress

They seem to be following the logical course of throwing everything at him including the kitchen sink because once the bargaining starts it's hard to add charges with out hard new evidence.  There is going to be a lot of bargaining going on.

Pumpkin Seeds

Yeah, a lot of times the initial charges are just a bluff.  The prosecution just tries to build up as much fear and intimidation as possible so that there is more room and power to negotiate.

Valerian

Quote from: Ephiral on April 22, 2013, 03:59:00 PM
That's, uh, kinda disgusting. "The justice system he actually violated won't kill him, so let's stretch definitions until we can kill him!"
Well, a very quick google search hasn't found anything as to the official reasons why, but it's possible that they're charging him in federal court at least partly as an attempt to avoid accusations of bias on the part of state / local investigators, yes?  In the same way that changes of venue to other counties are common for murders that stir up a lot of local feeling.
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Formless

I'm not sure who will agree with me on this but ...

Someone who takes away more than one life should be sentenced to death immediately , once proven that he committed the murder.

meikle

#200
QuoteSomeone who takes away more than one life should be sentenced to death immediately , once proven that he committed the murder.
Then you give that criminal no recourse but to do anything at all to avoid being taken alive.

We should not give killers incentive to kill more.  It is better for the rest of us if killers are inclined to surrender rather than to die in a shootout.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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Hellis

Also; consider this.

If we preach not to take a life, enforce it by law. Then what would death sentences be if not giant hypocritical act? Will killing someone solve anything, will it give us as society, anything back? No. Most western countries did awway with it for a reason, murder is murder. Killing a person in cold blood (yes, a execution is the very definition of cold blood) is never right, no matter if you are head of the state, a goverment or a normal citizen.

Trieste

Pretty much. There are certain things that a government should not do to its citizens, and taking their lives is one of them.

Formless

Taking a life isn't the essence of what I am saying.

But when someone is hell bent on taking another's life and they consider the punishment. They know the worst could happen is a life time in prison. Some may resort to that if they can end someone's life.

I think what I am trying to say is that the punishment doesn't make some people reconsider when they're about to kill someone. Discipline needs to be harsh in order to have someone contemplate what they'll do.

meikle

#204
Quote from: Ark Noah on April 23, 2013, 10:02:07 AMBut when someone is hell bent on taking another's life and they consider the punishment. They know the worst could happen is a life time in prison. Some may resort to that if they can end someone's life.

You are not considering the full extent of your incentives.  We should not endeavor to create a situation where someone who commits murder is incentivized to do absolutely anything they can to never get taken into custody.  The moment you say, "You've crossed the threshold and now we're going to kill you if you we catch you," that is the moment where a strong self-preservation instinct will force a criminal to do whatever it takes not to get caught, including killing more people.

You can't put the highest possible penalty at the very beginning, because when you do, you remove any incentive for criminals to stop committing crimes.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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Trieste

Quote from: Ark Noah on April 23, 2013, 10:02:07 AM
Taking a life isn't the essence of what I am saying.

But when someone is hell bent on taking another's life and they consider the punishment. They know the worst could happen is a life time in prison. Some may resort to that if they can end someone's life.

I think what I am trying to say is that the punishment doesn't make some people reconsider when they're about to kill someone. Discipline needs to be harsh in order to have someone contemplate what they'll do.

I actually already commented on that earlier in the thread. Relevant parts bolded:

Quote from: Trieste on April 21, 2013, 06:24:00 PM
I think that if he is guilty of the bombing, he should be treated like the murderer he is. He took peoples' lives away. I also think he's only 19 and 19 year olds are not always the best at recognizing the effects they have on other people. I sincerely hope that, if he is guilty, maturity only brings with it a nigh-unbearable burden of guilt. I'm personally okay with that.

He messed with my home and I want him to pay. I do. But that's not what the justice system is for, and that's not why I'm working my ass off to contribute what I can to the justice system. The justice system is there to keep him the fuck away from other people, at the very least. I know it's sort of up in the air as to whether the US justice system is rehabilitative or punitive (and it really needs to make up its mind). And if he has buddies that are planning to commit further crimes, then we need to catch up with them - but I think it's a mistake to think of the justice system as being a deterrent, not for crimes like this. Yeah, okay, you don't steal gum at the grocery store because it might be an inconvenience. You don't speed gratuitously because you might get pulled over. But making a bomb and carrying out the kind of crimes that have been committed here? I don't think anything, up to and including the death penalty, really counts as a deterrent there.

Formless

I have to admit ... The argument regarding death penalty never ends well.

Life is precious , but try to tell it to those who lost someone dear ... Don't tell them their loved ones lives' are dear ... Tell them the murderer's life should be perserved.

meikle

"Life is precious, that's why I think we need to kill more people."

Our legal system should be designed to discourage crime and protect people, not to help people get revenge.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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Trieste

#208
Quote from: Ark Noah on April 23, 2013, 10:15:09 AM
I have to admit ... The argument regarding death penalty never ends well.

Life is precious , but try to tell it to those who lost someone dear ... Don't tell them their loved ones lives' are dear ... Tell them the murderer's life should be perserved.

It tends to pull up a lot of emotions. But I don't think that refusing to kill more people is telling the victims' families that their loved ones were not worthwhile. First, we don't judge the worthiness of people in terms of others' lives. It is not a meterstick held up in any case except when someone thinks someone should die for their crimes. It is somewhat a personal decision as to whether that should be the exception to the rule, but I don't think it should. Second, the justice system makes mistakes. It absolutely makes mistakes. I ascribe to Blackstone's law, myself: "Better that ten guilty men should go free than one innocent suffer". It is easier to reverse a mistaken life sentence than to reverse a mistaken death sentence.

So for me, it is a combination of these things: 1. It's not a deterrent. 2. The measure of the victim's importance is not whether we kill someone else for their death. 3. The government does not have the right, responsibility, or obligation to take the lives of its citizens, even if they have done heinous things. 4. The idea of executing an innocent citizen horrifies me deeply, and there is no sense of vindication that comes from putting someone to death that justifies that horror.

Edit: Misspoke. Edit to change "executing a guilty" to "executing an innocent" because that's what I actually meant. ::)

Oniya

Quote from: Ark Noah on April 23, 2013, 04:12:16 AM
I'm not sure who will agree with me on this but ...

Someone who takes away more than one life should be sentenced to death immediately , once proven that he committed the murder.

Define 'proof'.  Then, I would recommend that you do some reading up on The Innocence Project.  Take a look at how many people have been exonerated (That's not just 'not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt'.  That's 'proven not guilty beyond any doubt'.) from life sentences and from death row.  And yes, some of them were originally convicted of multiple deaths.

Immediately looks awful damn quick beside those numbers.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Trieste

Quote from: Oniya on April 23, 2013, 10:36:21 AM
Define 'proof'.  Then, I would recommend that you do some reading up on The Innocence Project.  Take a look at how many people have been exonerated (That's not just 'not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt'.  That's 'proven not guilty beyond any doubt'.) from life sentences and from death row.  And yes, some of them were originally convicted of multiple deaths.

Immediately looks awful damn quick beside those numbers.

Interestingly, I had a bit of a discussion on FB on a friend's status about this. I mentioned that the Innocence Project had exonerated many who had been convicted based on eyewitness testimony and the response was, "As a lawyer, I have never seen anyone convicted on the basis of one person's testimony". I kind of wanted to reply with something along the lines of, okay, well, when you start actually practicing law...

...

::)

Oniya

Oh, there's never just one person's testimony presented, but when they talk to the juries afterward, there's often one person's testimony that 'made all the difference'.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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AllieCat

The reason for the death penalty charges is because his bomb killed a foreign national (the Chinese grad student).


Oniya

Oooh, that would be why the feds are involved, then.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Rogue

I would like to point out there are things worse than death (such as the solitary confinement that was referenced a bit ago in this thread). Why do you think people go on suicide watch all the time in prison?

My dad works in a low risk prison and there are still suicide watches all the time. And these are the people that are being reformed, taking classes, and have a lot of freedom for being in a prison. Some of them even are allowed dogs (as part of a reform project). If these people are willing to take their own lives, why would you think the death penalty is any better? Because it costs money, lots of money, to keep our prisoners and our prison workers housed and fed.

Personal opinion: Family of the prisoner should keep them fed beyond basic necessities. They eat better than our military at times and live in better conditions. I wish Tent City Jail could work every where but... *sighs*

Trieste

Quote from: Oniya on April 23, 2013, 10:42:20 AM
Oh, there's never just one person's testimony presented, but when they talk to the juries afterward, there's often one person's testimony that 'made all the difference'.

Yes... and a lawyer should be aware of that. :/

Moraline

Just shows you how on edge the world is about terrorist bombings...

Quote~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/10013768/Bogus-AP-tweet-about-explosion-at-the-White-House-wipes-billions-off-US-markets.html

The US stock market went into a temporary tailspin after hackers broke into the Twitter account of the Associated Press and announced that two bombs had exploded at the White House, injuring Barack Obama.



In Canada...

Quote~http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/04/23/f-via-plot-analysis.html

Since the arrest Monday of two men accused in a plot to derail a passenger train in the Toronto area, experts have been analyzing whether the accused received support from outside Canada, the timing of the arrests and the involvement of the Muslim community.

Chiheb Esseghaier, 30, of Montreal, and Raed Jaser, 35, from Toronto, have been charged with conspiracy to carry out a terrorist attack and "conspiring to murder persons unknown for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with a terrorist group."

U.S. law enforcement and Canadian security sources said the alleged plot targeted a rail line between Toronto and New York City. Via Rail and Amtrak jointly run routes between Canada and the U.S. Both companies say they're working with authorities.

RCMP Assistant Commissioner James Malizia said the two accused were getting "direction and guidance" from al-Qaeda in Iran. There was no information to suggest the attacks were state-sponsored, he said.

In other news...  "Justin Bieber's monkey going nowhere, say (German) customs officials" ~ http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/story/2013/04/23/bieber-monkey.html   :P  (I just couldn't resist adding this)

gaggedLouise

#217
*nods at Moraline* Read about the White House bombing hoax five minutes ago in another paper and just shook my head. It seems the AP bureau was hacked by supporters of Assad, using the moniker Syrian Electronic Army.

I mean, it can't really be the anti-Assad rebels, can it?

By the way, Bieber was playing around here this weekend.  Haven't heard any local news about his monkey though. O:)

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Oniya

Someone wants to touch Beiber's monkey?  What?  [/SNL joke]
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Ephiral

Quote from: Ark Noah on April 23, 2013, 10:02:07 AM
Taking a life isn't the essence of what I am saying.

But when someone is hell bent on taking another's life and they consider the punishment. They know the worst could happen is a life time in prison. Some may resort to that if they can end someone's life.

I think what I am trying to say is that the punishment doesn't make some people reconsider when they're about to kill someone. Discipline needs to be harsh in order to have someone contemplate what they'll do.
There's just one small problem with that: It doesn't work. Well, that and the whole "can't revive someone who was wrongly executed" bit.

Quote from: Trieste on April 23, 2013, 10:39:07 AM
Interestingly, I had a bit of a discussion on FB on a friend's status about this. I mentioned that the Innocence Project had exonerated many who had been convicted based on eyewitness testimony and the response was, "As a lawyer, I have never seen anyone convicted on the basis of one person's testimony". I kind of wanted to reply with something along the lines of, okay, well, when you start actually practicing law...
My first thought on that: Oh really? This, right here, is a textbook example of why the death penalty is a bad idea.

Hellis

#220
I think what I am trying to say is that the punishment doesn't make some people reconsider when they're about to kill someone. Discipline needs to be harsh in order to have someone contemplate what they'll do.

We used to have thieves hands cut off, did it detter everyone from stealing, did stealing become more common when that punishment was removed? No, it didn't. The reasons why people commit crimes are many and range from fanatic zealotry to desperate poverty. Beating your kids is one way to raise a kid, but that kid might just aswel decide that becouse you beat him, he has to be less open about who he is, or what he does. He might become more desperate when you find him out. As stated before, a criminal who realizes he is gonna get death penalty, will likely try to go out in a blaze instead.

Also, I was the target of three men beating me to the inch of my life, one of my friends were killed by hooligans in supporter fight between local teams here and I lost a uncle to malpractice. In neither case do I think death should be the penalty. It would not bring me my two preciuos friends back, one wich was family nor undo the abuse that I was forced to undergo. The ability to lament and Rehabilition are two things we as humans take for granted all to often. We are so blinded by our shortsighted need for immediete satisfaction that we do not understand the implications of our actions.

Do the kid deserve a harsh punishment? Yes, he does. He needs to live with what he has done, locked away till he is no longer a threat.

Chris Brady

Unfortunately, and there is no proof this kid will be one of these, but sometimes, it won't change them.  We like to think that rehab actually works and for a small selection it does.  But for some, prison is where they create ins and networks to other criminal enterprises.  And all that happens is that they come out unchanged and willing to commit again, and all we did was feed and clothe someone who will never repent.

Will this kid be one of those?  Who knows.  The real question is:  Do we want to take that chance?

The second, and equally important question is: how do deal with it?

Wish I had the answers.
My O&Os Peruse at your doom.

So I make a A&A thread but do I put it here?  No.  Of course not.

Also, I now come with Kung-Fu Blog action.  Here:  Where I talk about comics and all sorts of gaming

meikle

#222
Will this kid be one of those?  Probably, because the US prison system is designed to create repeat offenders, because the US prison system is a for-profit business that makes money by keeping people in jail.  Or probably not, because he'll probably get a life sentence and cost us lots of money because, hey, prisons gotta be profitable, yo.

Talk about a conflict of interest, right?  I don't think you can look to the US prison system for proof that people don't tend toward rehabilitation.  We put people in these tanks where we force them to live like violent criminals and then act surprised when they act like violent criminals when they come out the other end.  If our prison system bothered to make an effort to rehabilitate, rather than being financially incentivized to encourage repeat offenders, we might see a different result.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

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Hellis

Quote from: Chris Brady on April 24, 2013, 02:44:27 PM
Unfortunately, and there is no proof this kid will be one of these, but sometimes, it won't change them.  We like to think that rehab actually works and for a small selection it does.  But for some, prison is where they create ins and networks to other criminal enterprises.  And all that happens is that they come out unchanged and willing to commit again, and all we did was feed and clothe someone who will never repent.

Will this kid be one of those?  Who knows.  The real question is:  Do we want to take that chance?

The second, and equally important question is: how do deal with it?

Wish I had the answers.

We do, lest we be hypocrites and accomplices to state funded murder, effectively lowering us to their level.

Zakharra

Quote from: Hellis on April 25, 2013, 12:21:58 AM
We do, lest we be hypocrites and accomplices to state funded murder, effectively lowering us to their level.

If it can be proven he did it beyond a reasonable doubt, then I am fine with killing him. If he did it, why do we, as society, have to pay for his sorry ass to rot in jail for the next 60 plus years until he died or old age?  What's the cost to keep someone locked up for six or more decades?  $30,000 a year? If it is $30k a year, that's $1.8 million spent in keeping this murder alive. I'd rather just kill him and get it over with. Let his memory die. He intentionally and with deliberate forethought planted those bombs to kill people, he deserves death.

Moraline

Quote from: Zakharra on April 25, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
... Let his memory die. ...
Timothy McVeigh, Oklahoma City, April 19, 1995


Ephiral

"Deserve" is a horribly dangerous and misleading word when it comes to justice.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Ephiral on April 25, 2013, 05:10:27 PM
"Deserve" is a horribly dangerous and misleading word when it comes to justice.

I agree that justice should not be decided by the need for personal vengeance of the victims of an act. If we make the courtroom mainly an arena for personal vendettas, it begins to rot.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Zakharra

Quote from: Ephiral on April 25, 2013, 05:10:27 PM
"Deserve" is a horribly dangerous and misleading word when it comes to justice.

The punishment fits the crime. The death penalty shouldn't be used often, but it should not be forbidden as a punishment. If it's proven he did it with certainty, the death penalty is a fitting punishment. I do not see why society should be punished by keeping his ass alive for the next 60+ years in prison.

Ephiral

My point was simply this: We can approach matters of justice from a perspective of revenge, or one of minimizing damage to society. Only one of these speaks of what a criminal "deserves", and the two are not compatible.

HairyHeretic

Quote from: Zakharra on April 25, 2013, 06:09:55 PM
The punishment fits the crime. The death penalty shouldn't be used often, but it should not be forbidden as a punishment. If it's proven he did it with certainty, the death penalty is a fitting punishment. I do not see why society should be punished by keeping his ass alive for the next 60+ years in prison.

And when crimes are proven with certainty, and then , oops, disproven years later, how do you bring the innocent party back from the dead?
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Cattle die, kinsmen die
You too one day shall die
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Zakharra

Quote from: HairyHeretic on April 25, 2013, 06:12:37 PM
And when crimes are proven with certainty, and then , oops, disproven years later, how do you bring the innocent party back from the dead?

Given how good  forensics is getting, that's getting to be increasingly hard to do.  That's why I said with certainty. In this case, he is, or was cooperating with the federal authorities before he clammed up and from what it looks like, it's pretty much a given he IS guilty of setting the bombs with the intent to kill and main civilians.

Ephiral

#232
Quote from: Zakharra on April 25, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
Given how good  forensics is getting, that's getting to be increasingly hard to do.  That's why I said with certainty. In this case, he is, or was cooperating with the federal authorities before he clammed up and from what it looks like, it's pretty much a given he IS guilty of setting the bombs with the intent to kill and main civilians.

You appear to have fallen victim to the CSI effect. It is extremely unlikely that forensics works the way you think, if you think it routinely leads to 100% certainty. Speaking of which, given that the standard for conviction at all is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and wrongful convictions still happen, I'm curious as to how you'd define "certainty" in a legal sense. Note that this case is highly probable but hardly certain - false, fabricated, and alleged confessions happen. Often enough that I, for one, am hesitant about killing people on the back of a confession, moral issues aside. (Worth noting: During the incident, the police managed to come up with two obviously bad descriptions of the assailants - ethnicities that visibly do not match the suspects, and names that match neither the suspects nor, in one case, the given ethnicities.)

Trieste

Quote from: Zakharra on April 25, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
why do we, as society, have to pay for his sorry ass to rot in jail for the next 60 plus years until he died or old age?

So that he doesn't do it again. We as a society get the benefit of safety in return for the money and the other costs. That's kind of the way it works.

Quote from: Zakharra on April 25, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
Given how good  forensics is getting, that's getting to be increasingly hard to do.  That's why I said with certainty. In this case, he is, or was cooperating with the federal authorities before he clammed up and from what it looks like, it's pretty much a given he IS guilty of setting the bombs with the intent to kill and main civilians.

Okay, it doesn't matter how much forensic science has advanced when the average education of a jurist is famous for being at or below average. Colleagues of mine put the education level of the average jury in my county at 8th grade. This book supposedly puts the education level of the average juror at closer to 12 years. My guess, although it's not supported by research at this time, is that jury education level corresponds to average education level in the area of the trial - which isn't a problem if you're being prosecuted in, say, Cambridge... It is a problem if you're being prosecuted in an area that has prevalent socioeconomic problems. Like, oh, say, a poor minority neighborhood...

Have you ever tried explaining advanced biology and chemistry concepts to a high schooler? Have you ever tried to get someone who Doesn't Get It to understand what DNA actually is, what RNA is, what different types of chemical reactions do? Our justice system is often only as good as its jurors, and if the jury is inclined to be awed by the fact that someone on the stand can take a can of air and measure how many 'dead body fumes' are in it, it doesn't actually matter if the science behind it is bad. Conversely, if the jury is disinclined to believe that you can actually accomplish something even with science (see above, re: dead body fumes), it doesn't matter how good the science is behind it.

The US justice system needs significant revision before it can ever, ever be trusted to prove someone guilty beyond a doubt.

DarklingAlice

Quote from: Zakharra on April 25, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
Given how good  forensics is getting, that's getting to be increasingly hard to do.  That's why I said with certainty. In this case, he is, or was cooperating with the federal authorities before he clammed up and from what it looks like, it's pretty much a given he IS guilty of setting the bombs with the intent to kill and main civilians.

Increasingly likely and certainty are two different things. What is the acceptable margin of error expressed in terms of innocent people executed? Because I really don't see any argument for letting that number rise to even 1.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


Valerian

Quote from: Zakharra on April 25, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
If it can be proven he did it beyond a reasonable doubt, then I am fine with killing him. If he did it, why do we, as society, have to pay for his sorry ass to rot in jail for the next 60 plus years until he died or old age?  What's the cost to keep someone locked up for six or more decades?  $30,000 a year? If it is $30k a year, that's $1.8 million spent in keeping this murder alive. I'd rather just kill him and get it over with. Let his memory die. He intentionally and with deliberate forethought planted those bombs to kill people, he deserves death.
Well.  According to this, the cost per year of keeping federal inmates incarcerated is a bit over $25,000.  He almost certainly won't live another sixty years, however.  Serving prison time is shown to reduce life expectancy considerably.  This study is for state prisons, in this case Michigan, but they show an average life expectancy of 58.1 years, or about another 39 years for someone who goes into prison at 19.  Those who started serving their life sentences as juveniles (and those people were probably not a great deal younger than 19) had an average total lifespan of just over 50 years.  That's 26 years less than the average for a non-incarcerated male in the U.S.

I've never been comfortable with reducing lives to monetary amounts -- as mentioned above, there's a great deal more involved than that -- but if you're going to crunch numbers for the overall cost, you should probably calculate it out at more like 30-35 years, not sixty.  In other words, this kid's lifespan -- and he is a kid -- has been cut in half.  Also, he will likely spend most, if not all, his remaining years in some form of solitary confinement.  He isn't exactly going to be kicking back and enjoying living a rich, full life on the public dime.
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE