Elliquian Atheists

[Evrem]

Yeah, I have seen that before Sabby. It's a good selection. Love the bit with the Millenium Simulation in it at the beginning.

[Ironwolf85]

I enjoy theological and philophical discussion myself, and it got you guys talking didn't it?

[Sabby]

Broiach, I actually do feel the same, but I also know it's not something that will happen any time soon. Organized religion is a symptom of society. Even if we rounded up all members of the major Churches and tore down every establishment and outlawed the practice (which is just a VILE thing) all you'd be doing is creating secret Churches.

The only way that we'll be rid of organized religion is when the masses move past it, and not a second before. Between then and now, the only thing we can realistically do is keep the Churches in check and make sure they are reminded of their limits and responsibilities, while also encouraging modernization and reform. A Catholic Church that does not demonize peer review of The Bible is one that will disappear quicker then one that says "Just eat your cracker and shut up"

[Sabby]

The Real God: An Epiphany

I thought this was worth sharing. It was really kind of creepy with how well it struck home...

[MasterMischief]

Does that mean atheists feel rejected when confronted with theists?  Are our beliefs the same sort of extension of ourselves that god is for theist?

[Sabby]

I can only speak personally, and to answer your question... I feel pity Dx not a nice answer, but a truthful one. I try not to let it impact on my interactions with a person or to colour my opinion of them too much.

[MasterMischief]

The whole rejection thing just strikes me as a human failing, not a theist failing.  You see the same symptoms when someone says they prefer 4e/3.5 or Kirk/Picard.  I think our beliefs are seen as an extension of ourselves, whether that is the Judeo Christian God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[Sabby]

I prefer Ronon to Teal'c. My friend explains to me why Teal'c would have destroyed Ronon in his prime. None of his claims really sway me. I still prefer Ronon.

The thing is, I'm talking to a Stargate fan. We're having a difference of opinion on a topic we both mutually enjoy.

So no, I don't see that as the same rejection.

However... if someone were to say to me that both Teal'c and Ronon and every other fictional hero pale in comparison to actual historical figures, then you may have something. That's two completely different fields, and appropriately, one is about fantasy and the other reality. But does that mean they would unconsciously effect us in the same way as the video describes?

I doubt it, but it's worth exploring :)

[MasterMischief]

You have obviously missed the 4e/3.5 wars.  Be thankful.  They were every bit as ugly as the worst atheist/theist exchanges I have witnessed.

[Sabby]

Yes, but both sides are still on common ground, regardless of how civil they are or aren't. Someone trying to introduce me to God, there is no familiarity there. The entire thing is just an alien proposition to me. It's like, instead of 4e vs 3e, it was DnD vs Martians.

[MasterMischief]

Still, it boils down to someone thinking your beliefs are wrong.

Just as you may not feel rejection when exposed to a theist, not all theist feel rejection when exposed to an atheist.  The video flashed a disclaimer about different responses from exposure, but I think it is more than that.  The response depends on a lot of different factors.  When I am exposed to a belief I do not share, my first instinct is not defensive, it is curiosity.  So I do not feel rejected when someone tells me there is a god or that 3.5 is far superior to 4e or even something most people would find extremely offensive like white people are better than other races.  My first instinct is, "Really?  Prove it."  But not in a challenging way...in a genuinely curious way.  Let's see what you got.

But that is me.  Many people get all kinds of bent out of shape if you tell them you like chocolate over vanilla ice cream.

EDIT: Sorry if I feel like I am arguing with you, Sabby.  I just wanted to play Devil's Advocate with the video.

[SaturnCeleste]

I prefer to simply study religions as opposed to putting myself in one belief system.  I've fluctuated so many times I forget.  I've done the atheist to death was an agnostic a few years ago, am coming out of my pagan mindset and have seriously been exploring Hinduism.  For me the enjoyment of practicing a religion is studying it first.  I just never stick with one belief. 

The ONLY thing that nags in my head is I believe in the big bang theory BUT where did that first atom come from?  Perhaps when that question can be answered, that will be my final religion. 

[MasterMischief]

The ONLY thing that nags in my head is I believe in the big bang theory BUT where did that first atom come from?  Perhaps when that question can be answered, that will be my final religion.

A friend of mine and I postulated that it was an alternate dimension/time where scientists were smashing atoms together.   ;D

[Sabby]

EDIT: Sorry if I feel like I am arguing with you, Sabby.  I just wanted to play Devil's Advocate with the video.

You offended me greatly! I encourage reasoned debate, but not when it involves my personal feelings >: This is what's wrong with the world, such intolerance.

[MasterMischief]

You offended me greatly! I encourage reasoned debate, but not when it involves my personal feelings >: This is what's wrong with the world, such intolerance.

I would offer hugs but I know you don't like furry creatures.   >:)

[vtboy]

That's another good one that pops up. Seeing God in the world because it's just too perfect to be chance. I have an analogy for this one I've been working on. Someone told me that life on this planet is too perfectly suited to their environment, natural selection couldn't have nailed it that good. This is my response.

Say I show you a room with a hundred dice. As far as you can see, they are all 6. I didn't move them, they landed on 6, and I placed them here. WOW you say. That's incredible! How could that ever happen by chance? It's just too perfect.

But would you find it so impressive if you stepped over here and looked out this window? That's the ocean. Filled entirely with dice. All of them rolled 1 to 5. The reason this room looks so perfect is because your only seeing the winning numbers.

In the case of life, about 92% of the species on the planet are extinct. They just didn't get a good roll of the genetics die. Simply unlucky, to not have gotten just the right genes, and the ones that did still died off some times. That 8% of species we see now are just incredibly lucky, and even they have nagging problems from genetic randomness.

Further to your example, even without the ocean, the room full of dice landed on 6 is no more or less probable than any other combination of the same number of dice. The probability of a die landing with any particular face up is 1 in 6. The probability that in any particular room with n dice all will land with 6 up (or any other face) is 1 over 6 to the nth power. But that is the same probability for any other combination of n die faces showing. So, for example, if we were rolling only 3 dice, the probability of rolling three 6s would be 1/216 (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6). This is the same as the probability of rolling 1, 2 and 3, or 4, 5, and 6, or 2, 2 and 5 or 1, 3  and 6, etc., etc. For this reason, I've never understood the argument that the improbability of this particular world's existence points to the intercession of some intelligent being -- ours is no more or less probable than any other world.

One of the other problems with the anthropic argument -- and I think this is where your ocean of dice comes in --  is that we don't know how many rooms full of dice there are. The probability that any particular room will contain all sixes may be very small, but the probability that some room will contain all sixes varies with the number of rooms. If there is an infinite number of rooms, there will be an infinite number containing each possible combination of n dice.

There are credible (though, as yet, difficult to test) scientific theories positing the existence of many, perhaps an infinite number, of universes. If there is a large number of universes, the likelihood that one or more will favor life may not be small at all.

[Apple of Eris]

The ONLY thing that nags in my head is I believe in the big bang theory BUT where did that first atom come from?  Perhaps when that question can be answered, that will be my final religion.

And when discussing Religion I ask a rather similar question. "Where did God come from?" The answer I invariably get is God has always existed. If that answer works for god, it could work just as well for an atom.

Or perhaps there was no initial atom, perhaps it was to universal membranes colliding that created a new universe with the energy released. That was a sexy idea I saw in some video a few years back about what could have caused the big bang.

[Oniya]

If you believe in the oscillating universe theory, the 'cosmic egg' (the super-massive chunk-o-stuff that blew up in the Big Bang) is the combined result of all the matter from the previous universe - typically collected by the galactic black holes that eventually end up 'collecting' each other.  Another option, if you assume that a black hole can warp space-time into an actual conduit (worm hole), then the Big Bang could be the explosion of matter that the black hole took in.

Of course, once you start getting to black holes, scientists are schismed almost as strongly as the various religions.

[Hemingway]

The ONLY thing that nags in my head is I believe in the big bang theory BUT where did that first atom come from?  Perhaps when that question can be answered, that will be my final religion.

I thought I responded to this, but I must've deleted my post before actually posting it, as is my habit ( I do this on purpose, mind, when I feel like what I've written doesn't really contribute to anything ).

For a possible explanation, I'd recommend either listening to one of the talks given by Lawrence M. Krauss, or reading his book A Universe From Nothing ( there are talks by the same name ). By his own admission, his theory won't convince a creationist, but it's almost certain to be interesting to anyone who's genuinely interested in learning about the cosmos. I won't pretend to understand the physics of it, but I found this fairly good explanation which I hope gives an accurate representation of the basics.

And whether the theory is accurate or not, I think it shows something else: postulating the existence of a god or gods to answer very difficult questions is nothing but a lack of imagination. Further, per Occam's razor, practically any hypothesis that seeks to explain something like the Big Bang without invoking god is simpler and more elegant than the god hypothesis, which represents something like the light speed of complexity. By which I mean that god would basically have to be infinitely complex to explain increasingly complex things. A universe from nothing is certainly more plausible than a god from nothing - at least we know universes exist.

[Apple of Eris]

And to drown out the seriousness, and add a video that isn't narrated by someone speaking in a boring monotone (sorry, but it's true!):

A Sign for All Atheists...Incredible!

[Hemingway]

When you're an atheist, it's possible to have it both ways. Both serious and entertaining. With the power of Christopher Hitchens!

[Sabby]

Oh my xD What was that scene from? I thought it might have been The Onion for a bit.

Atheist Comedy - Family Values

[Apple of Eris]

It was from Mitchell and Webb, a british comedy duo

[Caehlim]

who here at Elliquiy is an Atheist

Me.

and how does this effect your (and others) lives?

I have more free time on sundays...?

Seriously though. Having never been religious, I have no basis for comparison. Without knowing how my life would be as a religious person, I can't know for certain in what ways it's different as an atheist.

[Sabby]

I ask that because many parts of the world have a mostly religious population. It's not so much about changes with yourself, but how your Atheism has effected your life. Just be glad that you have nothing to post :P Too many Atheists are afraid to come out because of family and community.