Currently, 30 States have put forth petitions to secede from the United States.

[Wolfy]

http://www.examiner.com/article/citizens-15-states-file-petitions-to-secede-from-united-states

After Tuesday's election, so far 30 states have put up petitions on the White House Website to Secede from the United States of America.

I don't..I just...Buh? @_@

I may be biased, but this is completely moronic. @_@

[Lilias]

Fee fi faw fum, I smell sore losers. ::)

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Can't really count Louisiana.  Every year the put that on the ballot to be voted on and every year nobody votes on the issue.

[LunarSage]

Isn't putting such a petition together technically treason?

A friend of mine who studied political science and history in college told me that under US law, there is no right of secession.

[Wolfy]

Isn't putting such a petition together technically treason?

A friend of mine who studied political science and history in college told me that under US law, there is no right of secession.

Ask him. :3

and really, I think a petition would be filed under Free Speech. Actually TRYING to secede would be treason.

[Lux12]

*sighs*Why do they do this when they know they'll fail?That said I won't shed any tears if Texas leaves the union.

[Valerian]

Can't really count Louisiana.  Every year the put that on the ballot to be voted on and every year nobody votes on the issue.

Same thing with Texas, really.  I don't know if they ever vote on it, but they like to make noises about secession.  Note that the article linked is from the Examiner, and that isn't actually a news source, so take their spin with a large hunk of salt.

The petitions don't mean a great deal, anyway.  They're trying to meet the 25,000 signatures in 30 days threshold that will get the petitions reviewed and an official reply drafted by the White House.  There's also at least one petition going calling for anyone who signed any of the secession petitions to be deported.

My guess would be people are just blowing off steam for the most part.  Also, some people are still woefully misinformed about the Affordable Health Care Act and that's why they're flipping out.  They should hopefully calm down when they see how it actually works.

[Moraline]

This whole thing sounds much worse then it is.

Anybody can put up a petition. Even if they got all of the required signatures they'd still need their own local governments approvals for it to mean anything and they don't' have that.

This is just a joke or a laughable attempt by a group of extremists.

If you want to see a serious attempt at secession then you should study the Canadian province of Quebec and the political parties of the Parti Québécois and Bloc Québécois of the Quebec sovereignty movements. These are actual political parties that at one time not long ago were actually the official opposition party in the Canadian parliament. They are still major players in politics in Canada.

[LunarSage]

Ah.  I had been under the impression that state officials had organized the petitions.

[Moraline]

Ah.  I had been under the impression that state officials had organized the petitions.

Nope, just click on "start a petition" and your underway.

I'm not even a US citizen and I could do it.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/

[Oniya]

I'd heard of the 15, didn't realize it was up to 30.  The Texas petition apparently has almost enough signatures to reach the White House's self-imposed threshold of 'we should look at this'.  Of the states that I was aware of, Texas is probably the only one capable of making a go of it - they have a separate power grid, for one thing, and a 'national' resource.  The rest of the southern states - um - Alabama and Mississippi are something like the poorest states in the nation?  Most of the government poverty benefits go to people in those states.  Take federal support out of those states, and you're going Third World, except for the major cities (many of which voted blue this year).

(What's up with Montana?  Landlocked is not a good start for a new country.  Were they thinking of joining Canada?  We're not going to trade for Quebec...)

And could someone tell me why people from Texas and Oklahoma are signing the one to 'let Pennsylvania secede from the United States'?  Stick to your own states if you want to secede!  >:(

[Valerian]

Ah.  I had been under the impression that state officials had organized the petitions.

That's probably what the Examiner staff wants everyone to think.  They like their scare tactics, and they pander to the far right.

[LunarSage]

I'm tempted to start a petition to... point and laugh at all the idiots who actually think they have a prayer of seceding from the United States.

This is nothing but hardcore Republicans whining that they lost the election, in my opinion.

[Oniya]

I'm tempted to start a petition to... point and laugh at all the idiots who actually think they have a prayer of seceding from the United States.

There are two competing petitions saying that people who signed petitions to secede should be stripped of citizenship and deported.

[Beguile's Mistress]

It has become an annual event in some states or at lease one they hold every four years.  Some areas of the South have never gotten over the War of Northern Aggression and still attempt to form their own country.  If nothing else it keeps people honest by keeping the issue open and gives us something to talk about when we should be doing something else. ;D

*starts on the stack of phone interviews that need done*

[Ravin]

The only state able to break away is Texas, and even then Demographically it is turning into a blue state. So unless they wish to risk an internal civil war upon themselves, they aren't going anywhere.

[LunarSage]

Well I made a petition that essentially (politely) says that everyone is being ridiculous, but I'm afraid I can't link it since it has my real name on it.  It's a shame, it would need 150 signatures to be publicly seen.

[Moraline]

I made up a fake petition as well:

Title:  Peacefully grant the Internet the right to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government.

Copy of petition Link and the sample email they send to you to mail out for support

Dear friends,


I wanted to let you know about a new petition I created on We the People, a new feature on WhiteHouse.gov, and ask for your support. Will you add your name to mine? If this petition gets 25,000 signatures by December 13, 2012, the White House will review it and respond!


We the People allows anyone to create and sign petitions asking the Obama Administration to take action on a range of issues. If a petition gets enough support, the Obama Administration will issue an official response.


You can view and sign the petition here:


http://wh.gov/9SCI


Here's some more information about this petition:


Peacefully grant the Internet the right to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government.

As the founding father Tim Berners-Lee didn't say to Robert Cailliau of CERN on 25 December 1990: "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for people to dissolve the TCP bonds which have connected them with other data centers, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of the IEEE and of IP protocol stacks entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to form an independent body." "...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of SOPA model is used as a destructive and restrictive force, it is the Right of People to alter or abolish the governing body that rules them."

I shall follow this with amused interest.

[Shjade]

There are two competing petitions saying that people who signed petitions to secede should be stripped of citizenship and deported.

That was my favorite part.

[Stattick]

It has become an annual event in some states or at lease one they hold every four years.  Some areas of the South have never gotten over the War of Northern Aggression and still attempt to form their own country.  If nothing else it keeps people honest by keeping the issue open and gives us something to talk about when we should be doing something else. ;D

*starts on the stack of phone interviews that need done*

I prefer calling it the Slaver's Rebellion.

[Vekseid]

The slavers didn't actually fight in the war. They even refused to pay taxes or provide supplies - it was their money, after all.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I do take offense to that considering the North wasn't exactly a bastion of freedom that people make them out to be.

[Callie Del Noire]

I prefer calling it the Slaver's Rebellion.

Actually till Lincoln used the Emancipation Proclaimation it had very little to do with Slacery. States Rights were a primary issue.

[Serephino]

If I remember right the south was mad because the House of Reps was based on population, and northern states had higher populations because of the industrial boom.  And so, stuff was passing the House that benefited the north because they had more Reps, and the south felt underrepresented.  There was also some stink about not allowing slaves in DC, so people couldn't bring theirs with them. 

[Pumpkin Seeds]

There was also something in regard to slave not counting for votes in the House of Reps, but counted for taxation purposes.

[gaggedLouise]

Isn't putting such a petition together technically treason?

A friend of mine who studied political science and history in college told me that under US law, there is no right of secession.

*nods vigorously, excepting Texas*

Like Lunar, I had the impression that the petitions had some sort of state or state senate backing...

[Vekseid]

Actually till Lincoln used the Emancipation Proclaimation it had very little to do with Slacery. States Rights were a primary issue.

"States rights" to own slaves. "Equal representation" For slave owners.  California was forced to send one pro-slavery senator to the Senate, even though its citizens rejected such. When Minnesota and Oregon were admitted without such bullshit (despite attempts at making Kansas a slave state by murdering the anti-slavery population), the balance of power shifted, and Lincoln's election was the final straw.

And even then, slave owners forced Tennessee to secede. They could not get the state to join the Confederacy in an honest election.

So yeah.

It was all about slavery.

Revisionists have worked damned hard to 'whitewash' what the Civil War was about. And it just continues.

The Civil War was basically this: Slaves wreck the land they work on. Thus there was a constant, continual push for acquiring new territory as slaveowners wrecked what they had. This was not lost on the North. If the states were permitted to secede, then any aversion of war would be temporary at best before the slavers decided they wanted more slave territory - either through war with the North, or with Mexico.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Slaves were also wreaking havoc on the economy of the North.  An industrial economy does not function well with slavery because obviously slaves work cheaper than paid workers to do menial tasks such as those in a factory.  Also slave owners don’t have to worry about inhuman working conditions because a slave has to work there.  On a plantation economy there has to be slavery because the harvest wouldn’t be done, the cost would be too high for the products.  With industry, the wages are too low and the the cities supporting those factories would stagnate from lack of spending. 

The North could not survive an industrial expansion with slavery being an option.

[Callie Del Noire]

Revisionists have worked damned hard to 'whitewash' what the Civil War was about. And it just continues.

The Civil War was basically this: Slaves wreck the land they work on. Thus there was a constant, continual push for acquiring new territory as slaveowners wrecked what they had. This was not lost on the North. If the states were permitted to secede, then any aversion of war would be temporary at best before the slavers decided they wanted more slave territory - either through war with the North, or with Mexico.

I think that the whole Civil War was a pile of events.. States Rights.. the impact of population growth throwing the representative curve off. the lack of right to expand for the slave states.. a growing divide between a massive industrialized society and a slower advancing agrian society in the south.

There was a MASSIVE divide in outlook and approaches. Without any common ground these piled up and compiled. Was slavery part of it? Yes.. was it the MAIN point. ... meehh.. the North Carolina kid in me says.. .. it was part of the foundation of a LOT of issues.

It was NOT a central point till Lincoln made it officially so. I think had there been far less partisanship on either side of the divide we could have rolled back slavery like the British did. Partisanship and radical partisanship at that, made it hard..no.. IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen.

Even after the Civil War was ended and with Lincoln's assassination that partisan divide remained, which is why some parts of the south barely noticed the Great Depression decades later due to the fact that they were still economically ruined from the Reconstruction.

I find it ironic in a way.. the last time the Republicans were in control of the North Carolina government like they are now was during reconstruction. Back then they were the party of equality.. now.. they aren't.. weird.

[Vekseid]

Slaves were also wreaking havoc on the economy of the North.  An industrial economy does not function well with slavery because obviously slaves work cheaper than paid workers to do menial tasks such as those in a factory.  Also slave owners don’t have to worry about inhuman working conditions because a slave has to work there.  On a plantation economy there has to be slavery because the harvest wouldn’t be done, the cost would be too high for the products.  With industry, the wages are too low and the the cities supporting those factories would stagnate from lack of spending. 

The North could not survive an industrial expansion with slavery being an option.

Hardly. The situation could just as well have been reversed. It's not like they gave a damn about worker's rights before unionization - the slavers' epithet was calling them wage slaves.

Which, in many cases, they were. Company towns come to mind.

Plantations continued after the Civil War - there's a reason that ex-slave states worked hard to lock down the mobility of people of color.

Politically, it was about plantation owners getting 3 votes for every 5 slaves they owned (which did not always win them elections). Morally, it was about the purpose and place of 'the negro'. At least, those were the sorts of arguments being made in public., for print

There was a MASSIVE divide in outlook and approaches. Without any common ground these piled up and compiled. Was slavery part of it? Yes.. was it the MAIN point. ... meehh.. the North Carolina kid in me says.. .. it was part of the foundation of a LOT of issues.

Find me a pre-Civil War document discussing secession that does not discuss the role of black people.

[TheGlyphstone]

Here's the South Carolina Declaration of Secession, the document that actually kicked off the whole shebang:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

Starting on Paragraph 15, it talks almost exclusively about how the issue is oppression of slaveholding states by non-slave states. It was about 'State's Rights'...specifically, the singular 'States' right' to have and keep slaves.

[Callie Del Noire]

Would you at least agree that from some southern states points of view the growing militant abolitionist movements in the north looked to outright destroy their economic safety? The difference between abolition of slavery in European nations like England and elsewhere were gradual and organized..whereas NO ONE up north seemed to be willing to build up a new infrastructure to replace the one they wanted to pulled down IMMEDIATELY?

The impact was tangible and very real. And in many ways left scars on the states in question that lasted DECADES.. economic scars that were never really tended.

Was the 'peculiar institution' wrong. Definitely. I know of only one branch of my family that ever owned slaves and they emancipated their slaves in the 1780s. Most of my family were yeoman farmers in the Carolinas

[Shjade]

Deviating from the actual thread topic to think more about the Civil War triggers, I find myself confused by the hypocrisy of counting slave population for voting purposes at all.

I mean, if I consider them as property, as they were at the time, I don't see why owning any number of slaves should imbue a person with extra votes. Would you get more votes for having X number of horses as well, or Y dogs? Did the trees in their orchards count toward their voting power? If yes, I could see an argument for counting slaves toward votes, but if not, I don't see why they'd expect to get what amounts to extra political clout for owning more farming tools.

[Callie Del Noire]

Deviating from the actual thread topic to think more about the Civil War triggers, I find myself confused by the hypocrisy of counting slave population for voting purposes at all.

I mean, if I consider them as property, as they were at the time, I don't see why owning any number of slaves should imbue a person with extra votes. Would you get more votes for having X number of horses as well, or Y dogs? Did the trees in their orchards count toward their voting power? If yes, I could see an argument for counting slaves toward votes, but if not, I don't see why they'd expect to get what amounts to extra political clout for owning more farming tools.

The thing, if I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), is that the population of the northern states was rapidly growing and outpacing the less industrial south. As a result a LOT more of the House of Representatives was going to the North..with the exculusion of future states from the slave owning states it took no one at all to realize that sooner or later the gridlock upstairs in the senate WOULD break..and then the rich land owners who relied on slavery would get it in the shorts.

I don't recall if to vote you had to be a land owner.. but I THINK that the number of reps was determined by population. (Voting or not) I am NOT sure about the population to seats bit.

[Stattick]

I wrote a long post, but decided only to post the first few lines. For the rest, it's sufficient to say that I don't really have anything positive to say about the South.

Actually till Lincoln used the Emancipation Proclaimation it had very little to do with Slacery. States Rights were a primary issue.

States Rights to keep slaves is more like it.



"The War of Northern Aggression" was a name invented in the 1950's for the Civil War. It's a revisionist term coined by the same people responsible for Jim Crow laws, segregation, the Klan, and lynchmobs. It's indelibly tarnished by racism.

I'm fine with calling it the Civil War, or the War Between the States or whatnot. But I deeply dislike the term "War of Northern Aggression" and the inferences that the South was just an undeserving victim instead of a slaving monster.

The South started the war by seceding. It fired the first shots by marching north and attacking...




And that's really all I can say while trying to remain polite.

[Callie Del Noire]

I wrote a long post, but decided only to post the first few lines. For the rest, it's sufficient to say that I don't really have anything positive to say about the South.

States Rights to keep slaves is more like it.



"The War of Northern Aggression" was a name invented in the 1950's for the Civil War. It's a revisionist term coined by the same people responsible for Jim Crow laws, segregation, the Klan, and lynchmobs. It's indelibly tarnished by racism.

I'm fine with calling it the Civil War, or the War Between the States or whatnot. But I deeply dislike the term "War of Northern Aggression" and the inferences that the South was just an undeserving victim instead of a slaving monster.

The South started the war by seceding. It fired the first shots by marching north and attacking...




And that's really all I can say while trying to remain polite.

As a southerner.. I never liked the term. It was a civil war.. so I'm okay calling it the American Civil War..

The folks in South Carolina started it. Plain and simple.

It was a southern rep who beat a fellow rep senseless on the floor of congress.. so I never bought into it.. but most of my ancestors who fought were North Carolina yeomen who woke up one morning in the middle of the confederacy.

Yeah.. slavery was in the foundation of a lot of the issues that led to the seccession movements of the time. Of course it was only part of losing power, facing impending economic ruin with little or no recourse in the way to prevent it. As radical as the southern contingent of congress and the senate was.. their peers in the northern faction was equally determined to do 'everything NOW'. It takes two sides to tango..and like today.. neither faction was looking for a way to peacably settle things. So we wound up with 600,00 American dead and decades of distrust and hate that still fester in some areas.

I wonder what Lincoln would have been able to do had he lived. Could he have dulled the faction who wanted a 'pound of flesh'. 

[Stattick]

I could be wrong, but I thought that the abolitionists had been trying to get rid of slavery since the mid 1700's. Granted, the North perhaps could have been more diplomatic about it in the 1850's, but they were facing staunch and unified opposition. The South wouldn't negotiate or compromise at all.

[Callie Del Noire]

I could be wrong, but I thought that the abolitionists had been trying to get rid of slavery since the mid 1700's. Granted, the North perhaps could have been more diplomatic about it in the 1850's, but they were facing staunch and unified opposition. The South wouldn't negotiate or compromise at all.

You're right.. the south WASN'T willing to cooperate.. but in the decade or so leading up to the Civil War..there was nearly NO talk of easing it out anymore. On either side. (Or if it was I haven't found any evidence of it). I do know that there were enough precedents to let things change.. such as the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 which removed the institution of Slavery from the United Kingdom and the British Empire while giving a 'wind down' period of indentured servitude that would end years later.

It could have done a LOT to set precedent.. the problem was, like today, we have two dogmatic sides with very little willingness to talk.

[Lux12]

I would hope that people would not be so inclined to fall back on violence these days. Though I did fear that the election could in fact lead to a civil war over the strict partisan divide that has so dominated politics for all these years.

[Callie Del Noire]

I would hope that people would not be so inclined to fall back on violence these days. Though I did fear that the election could in fact lead to a civil war over the strict partisan divide that has so dominated politics for all these years.

I don't know how to back the parties away from the brink. Short of a total change of control of the GOP I don't see it happening. If Senator McCain had kept his spine over the last four years, I could see him to step up to lead the moderates back into control. As for any other option I don't see who could do it. Huntsman would be a nice choice from my POV but he's not well known and is still ringing from a pretty heavy hits in his run up for president. Not to mention he's on the short list to replace Secretary Clinton.

[Elven Sex Goddess]

All I have to say on what is amounts to nothing more then sore losers crying for secession.   A petition should be started to 'exile'  the cry babies.   

[Lux12]

Indeed.The whining is the part of this I find the most detestable. Though as I had said, I won't be upset if Texas leaves the union. My apologies to any Texans present on this forum who do not fit the stereotype so many seem to be hell bent on living up to.

[Oniya]

All I have to say on what is amounts to nothing more then sore losers crying for secession.   A petition should be started to 'exile'  the cry babies.

Two already have.  Been started, I mean.  Check my earlier post in the thread.

[Callie Del Noire]

Indeed.The whining is the part of this I find the most detestable. Though as I had said, I won't be upset if Texas leaves the union. My apologies to any Texans present on this forum who do not fit the stereotype so many seem to be hell bent on living up to.

Care to bet in 10 to 15 years it WON'T be a solid red state? I'm willing to bet that with the GOP's stupid state by state policies of immigration that the Mexican and other spanish speaking groups won't be backing them. I know that it pisses me off that my niece might have to prove her citizen ship because she looks 'mexican'.

[Miss Lilly]

Every ten years or so, there are grumblings in my state about seceding.  However, it's just not practical for a state to secede from its country. States are too interlinked with the rest of the country. Seccession would require the state to:

• have its own government
• have its own power supply
• have its own currency
• have its own defence force
• control its borders
• instigate appropriate immigration laws and passports
• set up trade routes with other states/countries

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Seccession is NOT a viable option for any state.

[Oniya]

Texas actually has its own independent power grid (thank you History Channel).  That makes it the only state on the list that I give even a moment's consideration to, as far as going through with it.

[Vekseid]

I think instead of outright secession what we're going to see is a blurring of state-national lines - at least in democracies. It's thus going to get harder for centralized authority of any sort to pull various stunts, and, slowly, localized regions will have more autonomy. You'll still be "American" or "Canadian" or "Australian", but the social blocks that are developing are not governed by borders. Instead they're governed by ideology and philosophy.

So I see a future where Seattle and Vancouver have more influence over each other - not just socially and culturally but also over each others' treaties, legal systems, conduct and even citizenship - than D.C. or Ottawa do, with national capitals eventually becoming more symbolic. There might be a world government of sorts, but it would function more as a body to track externalities, prevent violence and arbitrate or enforce treaties.

[LunarSage]

UCAS, CAS and Independent City-State of Seattle here we come!

I for one welcome the rise of Dunklezhan.  He'll make a better president than anyone else before him.  *nods*

[Oniya]

UCAS, CAS and Independent City-State of Seattle here we come!

I for one welcome the rise of Dunklezhan.  He'll make a better president than anyone else before him.  *nods*

*sporfle*

Well, as long as they keep thinking of corporations as people...

[TheGlyphstone]

UCAS, CAS and Independent City-State of Seattle here we come!

I for one welcome the rise of Dunklezhan.  He'll make a better president than anyone else before him.  *nods*

I'm not sure if I'll want to be a citizen of the Mafia or Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong...

[Oniya]

Hey, that was all supposed to start going down this year, right?  My sourcebooks are upstairs, or I'd check... ;D

[Callie Del Noire]

I'm not sure if I'll want to be a citizen of the Mafia or Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong...

Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong!

[Stattick]

I would hope that people would not be so inclined to fall back on violence these days. Though I did fear that the election could in fact lead to a civil war over the strict partisan divide that has so dominated politics for all these years.

I don't think there's sufficient organization or zeal on the right for an armed uprising.

[LunarSage]

I don't think there's sufficient organization or zeal on the right for an armed uprising.

Not to mention the US standing military forces would snuff out any sort of uprising really quick. 

The number of people who would actually be willing to physically go up against the US government are going to be in a severe minority.  Like around here in Virginia, the only people who swear that the south shall rise again are the elderly.

[Lux12]

I don't think there's sufficient organization or zeal on the right for an armed uprising.

That's what I was thinking and hoping, but at the same time I fear some of the radical right might try something. Some neo-nazi groups have boot camps set up in places.

[Oniya]

I can't help but be slightly amused at them.  Between the tattoos (verboten, except for the identification tattoo on the arm), and the general lack of discipline, they wouldn't have lasted a week in the actual fighting zone - or even in the training camps.  Cannon fodder, most likely.

Not that I'd want to meet one in a dark alley, or even a brightly lit thoroughfare, but put the 'Fourth Reich' up against some of our men in uniform and watch 'em run.

[Stattick]

Editorial over at redstate (conservative blog/news site) tells secessionists GTFO.

[Callie Del Noire]

Editorial over at redstate (conservative blog/news site) tells secessionists GTFO.

[slow golf clap]....

I actually feel a little hope.. given what he says about some Republicans I hold in low esteem. I respect the tone and content of his post. It was polite (if a bit sarcastic in spots) and stated the thing we NEED most. To come together as a nation.. not divide and run.

[Lux12]

[slow golf clap]....

I actually feel a little hope.. given what he says about some Republicans I hold in low esteem. I respect the tone and content of his post. It was polite (if a bit sarcastic in spots) and stated the thing we NEED most. To come together as a nation.. not divide and run.

Exactly. Things are bad enough as it is. Things would not improve for either side if we were to just split apart. All we would have is a bunch of petty people who have seen a certain goal come to fruition at the cost of stability. If ever there was a time to unite, it would be now when we are at a low point. We need to come together to solve our problems rather than create more problems by moving apart.

[Callie Del Noire]

And FYI.. the count is up to FORTY states now.. just goes to show there are idiots and asshats throughout the union.

[Oniya]

Hey, if everyone secedes, what will they be seceding from?

[Callie Del Noire]

Hey, if everyone secedes, what will they be seceding from?

DC?

[LunarSage]

I secede from your secession!  :P

[ShadowFox89]

There are two competing petitions saying that people who signed petitions to secede should be stripped of citizenship and deported.

I would say shot, but they wouldn't be worth the price of the bullets.

[Vekseid]

I would say shot, but they wouldn't be worth the price of the bullets.

This sort of attitude is not called for.

[gaggedLouise]

...and the same week, the people of Puerto Rico vote yes for aiming to join the U.S. as the 51st state.

[Lux12]

...and the same week, the people of Puerto Rico vote yes for aiming to join the U.S. as the 51st state.

I was thinking we should replace Texas with them.

[Callie Del Noire]

...and the same week, the people of Puerto Rico vote yes for aiming to join the U.S. as the 51st state.

They finally passed the measure?

[Oniya]

Okay - secessionists can go to Puerto Rico, and the Puerto Ricans can move into Texas (should be enough room there for the whole island, and the climate isn't too far off).  Cool people can stay.  ;D

[Lux12]

Okay - secessionists can go to Puerto Rico, and the Puerto Ricans can move into Texas (should be enough room there for the whole island, and the climate isn't too far off).  Cool people can stay.  ;D

Works for me. Though that would be logistic hell to implement considering the very scale of it.

[LunarSage]

Let's say on average each state's petition gets 25,000 signatures.  Let's also say that all 50 states get a petition.  I say an average of 25,000 because it's very likely that a lot of folks are signing petitions that aren't even for their state.  That's 1,250,000 signatures.  Let's assume for the sake of argument that all of those signatures are from different people (unlikely).

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

The site I linked above tells us that the current US population is (roughly) 314,772,190.  Let's round that down to 300 million just to make the math easier. 

That's not even a half of a percent of the population.  Even if you halved the population to take into account the number of viable adults, you're still left with like an 8th of 1%. 

Think about that and you can see that these yahoos signing these petitions are such an insignificant number that their efforts are irrelevant.  I've heard folks around my area gasp and say "Wow!  25,000 signatures for one state!  That's a lot!" 

I just have to shake my head.  25,000 seems like a lot until you compare it to a country's population being in the hundreds of millions.

[Stattick]

I came from one of the suburbs of the one of the suburbs of L.A. Los Angeles has a population of nearly 4 million, and that doesn't count all the other cities piled on top of L.A. You can drive for something like three hours on the freeway in a more or less straight path while the traffic is actually moving, and not get out of an urban environment, it's all just city atop of city. 25,000 doesn't seem like a lot to me. But I hear what you're saying.

[Secretwriter]

Every ten years or so, there are grumblings in my state about seceding.  However, it's just not practical for a state to secede from its country. States are too interlinked with the rest of the country. Seccession would require the state to:

• have its own government
• have its own power supply
• have its own currency
• have its own defence force
• control its borders
• instigate appropriate immigration laws and passports
• set up trade routes with other states/countries

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Seccession is NOT a viable option for any state.

Add to the petitions that in each state there's people voting from other states that don't even live there.  It's all a big bluster show.

What I'm more worried about is the nuts who are running around screaming that Jesus is coming tomorrow because the great nations are falling.

[Oniya]

What I'm more worried about is the nuts who are running around screaming that Jesus is coming tomorrow because the great nations are falling.

Gaw.... Tell them they have another five weeks.  Then we can all get another punch on our 'I survived the Rapture' card.  (Fill the card, and your next one's free!)

[Stattick]

Add to the petitions that in each state there's people voting from other states that don't even live there.  It's all a big bluster show.

What I'm more worried about is the nuts who are running around screaming that Jesus is coming tomorrow because the great nations are falling.

Maybe he will. That would be all sorts of awesome, if Jesus came back, and kicked the over living shit out of the GOP for being bigoted pricks. Also, he could take on inner city gang violence like Bronson's Death Wish movies. Actually, I envision it almost exactly like Gandhi 2.

[LunarSage]

"I'll have a steak.  Medium rare."

[KennethNoisewater]

I say let them become their own country.  Let's end all the crap and make it a blue country and a red country.  I am all for it.  Because when they do, the breakout looks like this (and yes I was just bored enough one night to go down this rabbit hole and put it together) And this is after flipping Indiana and North Carolina.  Hell I would give them Florida just to make drawing the borders that much easier:

% GDP
Blue: 67.46%
Red:  32.53%

Number of the top 100 universities in the country
Blue: 76
Red:  24

Total number of Fortune 500 companies
Blue: 359
Red:  141

Total population (and this is after the great migration to the sun belt)
Blue:  198,129,430
Red:   113,462,550

Percentage of that population in poverty:
Blue: 11%
Red:  14%

Number of states listed as one of the 10 poorest in the country:
Blue: 1
Red:  9

Number of states listed as one of the 10 most obese in the country:
Blue: 1
Red:  9

Number of States listed as one of the 10 least educated in the country:
Blue: 1
Red: 9

So please please please lets do this.  I might be a little sad about the loss of great cities like Atlanta, St. Louis, New Orleans or Boise, but let them drown in their own misery of obesity, lack of education, extreme poverty, smaller tax base (and thats not even counting how many of those retired residents are part of that number), and an insignificant economy (where nearly 1/4 of that is made up by Texas alone).  I will add my name to their petitions for them just to get them the hell out quicker.  As demonstrated by some of these numbers, clearly Republican politics are serving them really well.

[payne]

TBH, I wouldn't trust what The Examiner says, they tend to spin the truth. A lot.

[Oniya]

Apologies for this, but - well, MATH.

Number of that population in poverty (rounded up to a whole person):
Blue:  198,129,430*11%=21794238
Red:   113,462,550*14%=15884757

[KennethNoisewater]

What about the math? 1. it is correct.  2. having 6 million more in poverty when you have over 85 million more residents to offset that is a good thing.  It is a lower ratio of residents who live below the poverty line.  It isnt about the pure number it is about the percentage.

[Oniya]

Most people don't have the same affinity for math that I do.  Hence, the apologies for all the eyes glazing over. :D

Yes, the ratio is important, but it's still 6 million more human beings.  Of course, considering the other factors of Red vs. Blue, that raw number might be more easily reduced after the division.

[Secretwriter]

StoreHouse of Useless Trivia  <---  *eyes glaze over*

[Funguy81]

It looks like the fortune five hundred companies are based in those blue states. Are they red companies in blue states, or really blue companies.

[ShadowFox89]

 It's just people blowing smoke out their asses, really.

Other governors, perhaps sensing the overall "non-starter-ness" of seceding from the United States, have also publicly declined to support these secession petitions. "I don’t think that’s a valid option for Tennessee," said Tennesee Gov. Bill Haslam. Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley released a long statement through a spokeswoman in which he reiterated his belief in "one nation under God" and that "states can be great laboratories of change."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/14/secession-50-states-_n_2131447.html

[TheGlyphstone]

There is probably a fourteen-syllable German word that precisely captures the combination of juvenile whining, sour grapes and goofy anti-government fervor that drove an infinitesimal number of Americans to submit and support these petitions, but the word that the kids in America use to describe this is "butthurt."

[Oniya]

If there isn't, I'm sure one can be invented.  Although, limiting it to 14 syllables might cramp the style.

[As Day Fades]

Living in NJ, it made me blink a few times to see my state listed among the names...and then facepalm. Considering the Democrats won the state(by a huge margin), it's clear that this is a special type of butthurt -- the handful of people putting this together are apparently too ignorant to understand how dumb they are.

Pettiness liek whoa.

[Secretwriter]

On my face book I posted something about removing me from friends lists if someone signed one of the petitions because I have issues with being friends with idiots. 

[Callie Del Noire]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/establish-new-legal-system-motorcycle-riding-judges-who-serve-police-judge-jury-and-executioner-all/QS9sBWBc

oh-kay..

[ShadowFox89]

Viral marketing for Judge Dredd?

[Lux12]

Wow.People will petition for anything won't they? Petitioning for a dystopian tomorrow. Well at least it's rather original.

[loki]

All the bashing aside, doesn't this scare anyone? I'll admit that I didn't vote for Obama, but this? Our 'one nation under god' is dividing, and the sad part about it is that most youths today don't know history well enough to stop it from repeating.

If you look at what Hitler did, he took over the youth and got his army to destroy. I have a friend, whom is almost thirty, who actually told me that she didn't believe that the holocaust happened. I must of just stared at her for a minute without being able to say anything. Add that with the new reports about collage students that don't know much history, unless they are history majors, and I see a scary trend happening.

First, the holocaust didn't happen. Next, the hardships of slaves are never talked about in schools anymore. Then, we were never attacked on our own soil???

Throughout out history, things repeated themselves because people either, didn't learn from before, or weren't told what really happened and repeated it. This uprising, even as impossible as it is, should scare people. This country is going to spit again or fall because it will refuse to join together and work for the greater good.

It will be a sad day when a country that is so nationally mixed falls because of a unwillingness to put differences aside, stop blaming others and take responsibility, and work together for the hope of all young ones that are being born now.

[LunarSage]

The nation isn't dividing.  Those petition idiots make up less than 1% of the. United States population.  I wouldn't worry, myself.

[Vekseid]

1% would be three million.

Since there's no real limit on how much or often one person can 'sign', it's more like 1% of 1%.

[Oniya]

And young people are actually getting out and doing something.  In the wake of Sandy, the OWS crew got out to people that the Red Cross and FEMA hadn't even stopped to check on.  I read something about them setting up a 'registry' so that needed items could be more easily gathered and gotten to the right places.  There's even a group starting an organization that purchases debts the way collectors do, but then 'passes that savings' on to the person who owes the debt.

I used to think I was born a decade or so late.  Now I'm thinking I might have been early.

[Moraline]

1% would be three million.

Since there's no real limit on how much or often one person can 'sign', it's more like 1% of 1%.

Not to mention that you don't even have to be a US citizen to sign.

I signed the Judge Dredd petition. That would be totally badass!

[LunarSage]

1% would be three million.

Since there's no real limit on how much or often one person can 'sign', it's more like 1% of 1%.

Well I was being generous and assuming 25,000 signatures per state, which I know very unlikely.

[Stattick]

Well I was being generous and assuming 25,000 signatures per state, which I know very unlikely.

A lot of the same people signed the petitions for multiple states too. It's a scam by a few crazy nutballs.

[kckolbe]

The only state able to break away is Texas, and even then Demographically it is turning into a blue state. So unless they wish to risk an internal civil war upon themselves, they aren't going anywhere.

Well, many people say this, and it is very misleading.  Texas has no special dispensation to secede.  They do, however, retain the right to divide into separate states, each of which qualifying for admittance into the union.  There are several theories as to how that can be interpreted into secession, as new states could be formed and then refuse to join, as the clause states that they qualify for admission, not that they require admission.

Additionally, Tom DeLay brought up an interesting theory of dividing Texas into 5 states, draw up to all still be Republican, and to do so while the Democrats control the Senate.  Once this happens, the new states send their constitutionally granted senators to the Senate, where they will likely be blocked or at least postponed as this will unseat the Democrats majority.  Once this happens, secede citing "denial of representation."  Scary, and with a lot of variables, but definitely the kind of shenanigans that could happen.

Alternatively, one could simply state that the constitution does not grant the federal government the power to prevent secession, and that all powers not explicitly granted to the federal government remain with the states.

Texas actually has its own independent power grid (thank you History Channel).  That makes it the only state on the list that I give even a moment's consideration to, as far as going through with it.

Thank you for saying it.

...and the same week, the people of Puerto Rico vote yes for aiming to join the U.S. as the 51st state.

I know.  If Texas leaves and Puerto Rico joins, we can keep our flag as is.  That's just economical.

[Will]

Actually till Lincoln used the Emancipation Proclaimation it had very little to do with Slacery. States Rights were a primary issue.

But the particular State's Right in question was slavery.  State sovereignty was just a facade, a justification, just like "No taxation without representation" was a justification for wanting independence.

[Stattick]

I'd support breaking Texas up into several different states. It would help to kill off the deleterious effect the Texas School Board has been having on the nation's textbooks. It would break up the big block of Electoral College votes that Texas gets. It also makes it easier to divide and concur a red state, which is strongly blue in a few places. It would also pit parts of current Texas against other parts of current Texas as they fight against each other for pork. All in all, I think it would be a good thing for the nation. Probably not such a good thing for Texas or Texans though. Likewise, from a nationalist point of view, I'd support breaking California up into Crazyville California (N. Cali) and Curbstomp California (S. Cali). From the vantage of someone raised in Southern California (Curbstomp), I think splitting the state would ruin Southern Cali though because of water issues though, since Southern Cali pipes in lots of water from Northern Cali.

[LunarSage]

None of it is ever gonna happen in our lifetimes, though.  The government can and will physically force Texas to sit down and shut up if it tries that.  This isn't the 1800s and an individual state does not have sufficient willing manpower to physically resist the US military.  Hell, I'd be willing to bet if every red state banded together in this day and age, they'd still get smacked down.

[kckolbe]

When smaller entities try to break away from larger ones, other countries tend to get involved to help it happen.  Look at how much territory Russia has lost over the years.

[TheGlyphstone]

When smaller entities try to break away from larger ones, other countries tend to get involved to help it happen.  Look at how much territory Russia has lost over the years.

Who's going to help Texas? The only country I can think of with the ability and will to aid a U.S. secession attempt would be China, and that's an awfully long way for them to project their power- militarily, at least, they could turn the screws on us economically if they wanted to. Russia and about two-thirds of South America might have the will, but not the ability - a lot of European countries have the ability, but they're mostly friendly or neutral to us and lack the will.

[kckolbe]

Economic pressure can accomplish serious things as well.  My point is that the US is not invulnerable.  I am concerned with the tone this thread is starting to take.  It seems a lot more argumentative than a normal discussion.  I've been trying to keep to actual laws and precedents, but it is becoming more difficult.

[KennethNoisewater]

All the bashing aside, doesn't this scare anyone? I'll admit that I didn't vote for Obama, but this? Our 'one nation under god' is dividing, and the sad part about it is that most youths today don't know history well enough to stop it from repeating.

If you look at what Hitler did, he took over the youth and got his army to destroy. I have a friend, whom is almost thirty, who actually told me that she didn't believe that the holocaust happened. I must of just stared at her for a minute without being able to say anything. Add that with the new reports about collage students that don't know much history, unless they are history majors, and I see a scary trend happening.

First, the holocaust didn't happen. Next, the hardships of slaves are never talked about in schools anymore. Then, we were never attacked on our own soil???

Throughout out history, things repeated themselves because people either, didn't learn from before, or weren't told what really happened and repeated it. This uprising, even as impossible as it is, should scare people. This country is going to spit again or fall because it will refuse to join together and work for the greater good.

It will be a sad day when a country that is so nationally mixed falls because of a unwillingness to put differences aside, stop blaming others and take responsibility, and work together for the hope of all young ones that are being born now.

These are very dangerous assumptions that you are making.  If I am reading you correctly you are attempting to draw a correlation between Hitler garnering the young population and Obama getting young people votes.  If so this is beyond foolish to compare a dictator whom from the start was known be a racist and anti-semetic.  Two traits that you can never associate with our current president.  There are no parallels between the two. 

Furthermore to go from denying the holocaust to ignoring slavery to forgetting 9/11 are some very big leaps. This is similar to those morons who think gay marriage is going to lead to people marrying monkeys.  Unfortunately there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there.  And those that deny the holocaust are exactly that.  They didnt forget or ignore history, they are selecting to act as if it didnt happen and that is for reasons we may never understand (very similar to the conservative population drawing a communistic correlation with Agenda 21.)  Conspiracy theorists who either couldnt get into that nights shufflboard tournament (elderly ultra conservatives) or morons who have smoked pot for too long and think everything is a conspiracy (young ultra liberals).  So no one is forgetting the holocaust.  And yes some elements of history are not being taught very well, and in many cases not being comprehended as well.  Some by choice, and others because of reduced budget cuts and underperforming schools (maybe conservatives should stop slashing school budgets in favor of road construction and military spending and this problem might improve).  But slavery is a part of our culture that will never be lost and a lesson never forgotten.  And as far as 9/11 goes, most conservatives have no right to even sympathize with that (you know the rough neck moron in Alabama who wears the t-shirt "never forget" with a giant American flag on the back window of his truck)  because a majority of those morons spend the other 364 days of the year bashing and tearing apart New Yorkers as a bunch of liberals, libtards, or whatever half ass adaptation of the word they can formulate.  But magically on one day of the year in September they just love New Yorkers, until September 12th rolls around and its back to hating them. 

You are right.  This country is being split down the middle.  And I will admit that my earlier post probably didnt help that cause.  But when half of the country is busy trying to compare socialism, communism, and Obama its a little hard to be united.  Especially when most of those assholes dont even know what true communism and socialism is unless it is defined to them by Michelle Bachmann or Lindsey Graham, whom speaking of needing a history lesson, havent the slightest inclination what it truly is and use the words as scare tactics and buzzwords. 

If we want to stop the splitting of this country then we need to realize that health care is a right not a privilege no matter what form it comes in; RomneyCare, ObamaCare, or JustMakeSurePeopleCanHaveHealthCare Care. But regardless the livelihood and health of our country should not be a free market for-profit enterprise.  We need to realize that the mass accumulation of wealth while squandering the underprivileged with unfair regressive tax structures and inadequate educational and employment opportunities  is just as much class warfare as asking the rich to pay more.  We must realize that education is more important than a new toll road or an additional fighter jet that will be parked on an aircraft carrier until it is decommissioned.  We need to realize that the most important things we can do is provide those being born now, as you stated, is to provide them with proper healthcare, proper education, and an opportunity at economic mobility.  The same economic mobility that has declined year over year while free market capitalistic profits and wealth accumulation have increased year over year.  We need to realize that the needs of women and old white men are drastically different and the decisions for each of them should not be made for them by the opposite.  We need to realize that just because of one horrific day, immigrants are not our enemies.  Immigrants are the same people that have started countless enterprises that employ millions of people around this country and they are also the same ones that will serve you fast food, clean your toilet, mow your grass, and watch your children-all things that the rest of us are too unwilling to do yet we want to stop those that are willing from doing it.  We need candidates that understand the basic tax structure of this country and how it works, rather than splitting the country into 47% and 53% and still getting it completely wrong about what that means.  We need to stop ignoring climate change, the detrimental effects of suburban sprawl, the need for renewable energy, and the overall need to just do better not because we have to or are scared into it, but because its right.  We need to understand that individualism is not what makes country great, it is collectivism.  And lastly we need to realize that this country does not look like Mitt Romney, Lindsay Graham, Paul Ryan, and Mitch McConell anymore.  This country looks like Barack Obama, Bobby Jindal, Julian Castro, Kasim Reed, Marco Rubio, Deval Patrick, Cory Booker, and Rahm Emanuel.

My apologies for my rant to anyone who made it through the whole thing.  But begging for unity when throwing around names like Hitler to compare or insinuate our current political climate is just downright foolish and represents a complete lack of historical knowledge, hypocritical of what was requested from others.

[Lux12]

In speaking of this, I heard that Puerto Rico actually voted in favor of statehood recently. Funny since I was saying that we should boot Texas and make Puerto Rico the new 50th. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

[Oniya]

In speaking of this, I heard that Puerto Rico actually voted in favor of statehood recently. Funny since I was saying that we should boot Texas and make Puerto Rico the new 50th. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

They did vote in favor of statehood - but it's complicated.

(Source)

A majority of the votes cast were in favor of becoming a state.  However, there was a significant amount of the population (half a million) that didn't vote on that particular issue at all.  Did they not care one way or the other?  Did they think it was a dumb question and things should stay the way they are?  No real way of telling from the results.

Also, the decision to let PR become a new state still has to go through the House and Senate - that's two more Senators and 4-5 more Representatives, and the current 'class' will want to make sure that the 'transfer students' are on the 'correct' side of the aisle.

[Lux12]

They did vote in favor of statehood - but it's complicated.

(Source)

A majority of the votes cast were in favor of becoming a state.  However, there was a significant amount of the population (half a million) that didn't vote on that particular issue at all.  Did they not care one way or the other?  Did they think it was a dumb question and things should stay the way they are?  No real way of telling from the results.

Also, the decision to let PR become a new state still has to go through the House and Senate - that's two more Senators and 4-5 more Representatives, and the current 'class' will want to make sure that the 'transfer students' are on the 'correct' side of the aisle.

Oh Lovely, a new partisan clash in the making.

[Stattick]

I'm not sure what the exact process of becoming a state entails, but I know that Puerto Rico's done it's part (voted to switch from being a territory to becoming a state), and now the ball's in play in Congress. I have a feeling that they'll probably get in too. I think that the Republicans want to try to portray themselves as friendly toward Hispanics, and make friends hoping that Puerto Rican congress critters will caucus with them. My understanding is that on social issues, that Puerto Ricans tend to be pretty conservative. I think that the Republicans think that if they're nice to the Puerto Ricans, that it will help them extend an olive branch to Hispanics in general.

I think that the Democrats will go for Puerto Rican statehood as well, considering that Puero Rico was strongly pro-Obama in the last election. Furthermore, the Republican party has no real strength or power in Puerto Rico, which means independent voices in Congress, ones that won't likely vote in lockstep with the Republicans, even if they happen to be mostly conservative. On the other hand, Hispanics, particularly in recent elections, have been voting overwhelmingly for the Democrats, possibly due to the not so subtle racism that the Republicans have been throwing around.

President Obama has already come out for supporting Puerto Rican statehood. I'm pretty sure that the Democrats will follow the presidents lead. It remains to be seen whether the Republicans will support it as well. They'll have enough votes in the House to be able to block it if they want. So, do the Republicans further risk tarnishing their name with Hispanics by blocking Puerto Rican statehood, or do they embrace them and hope to turn the Puerto Ricans into Congressional allies? I'm guessing that we'll get a mixed bag from Republicans; some will support statehood, and some will be against it and say a bunch of racist stuff (either with the dog whistle, or just blatantly for everyone to hear). I don't know if Puerto Rico will get enough Republican votes to get in, but I'm pretty sure that the Republicans are going to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot on this, and further alienate minorities.

Ironically, in eight to twelve years, it could be the Puerto Rican conservative party (or is it parties?) that might start to expand into the US if the Republicans don't get their shit together. Puerto Rico has several major political parties, and none of them start with a D or an R. Right now, no one that I've talked to seems to know whether the theoretical Puerto Rican representatives and senators will caucus with the Dems, the GOP, or mostly with themselves, swinging from left to right depending on the issue. It could be a real game changer in US politics in the long run. Or maybe in a few years, the native Puerto Rican political parties will get squeezed out by the D's and the R's.

[Oniya]

Oh Lovely, a new partisan clash in the making.

That was about my thought, too.   ::)

[Callie Del Noire]

I don't know Stattick.. I think the PR parties will DEFINITELY have a hit in their ethnic centers.. and yeah.. a few more seats in the House and 2 in the senate will be VERY potent at this point in time.

I give the GOP a 1 in 5 chance of recovering from their cranial rectumitis to think enough to move down there to try and accommodate things. I suspect the parties in Puerto Rico will be approached by both sides.. but the leadership of the GOP will demand they 'join' with the GOP and play by the parties rules..and folks in the leadership positions will either be pushed aside or accommodated

[Lux12]

Indeed. Puerto Rico has held out longer than most other territories and one cannot expect them to just give up their own internal partisan loyalties and interests so easily. The two big parties will have to make very local appeals if they want to have a greater measure of influence over what goes on there.

[Callie Del Noire]

Indeed. Puerto Rico has held out longer than most other territories and one cannot expect them to just give up their own internal partisan loyalties and interests so easily. The two big parties will have to make very local appeals if they want to have a greater measure of influence over what goes on there.

My understanding is they aren't too particularly happy with Mitt's visits .. or the GOPs attitude in general.

[Lux12]

My understanding is they aren't too particularly happy with Mitt's visits .. or the GOPs attitude in general.

Well they haven't been the most sympathetic to the Hispanic demographic  or quick to adopt agreeable stances on issues important to them as of late.

[Callie Del Noire]

Well they haven't been the most sympathetic to the Hispanic demographic  or quick to adopt agreeable stances on issues important to them as of late.

I think the rabid assertion that if you speak English with an accent that isn't either New Yorker, New Englander or White Southern means you have to prove your citizenship is pissing off more folks than they thought.

I have said it before..I don't want this to be a country where my 8 month old neice in Texas has to show proof that she was born here because mom's family has been working both sides of the US/Mexico border for the better part of 2 1/2 centuries.

[Lux12]

I think the rabid assertion that if you speak English with an accent that isn't either New Yorker, New Englander or White Southern means you have to prove your citizenship is pissing off more folks than they thought.

I have said it before..I don't want this to be a country where my 8 month old neice in Texas has to show proof that she was born here because mom's family has been working both sides of the US/Mexico border for the better part of 2 1/2 centuries.

Nor should she have to. For many years people have fought to make sure that it is known that being American is not about being white or the way you look in general. To remind us that this is supposed to be a country for all ethnic groups, creeds, and affiliations. I may not have a loyalty to any government these days or believe in government, but I do believe in that.

[Secretwriter]

No. Nothing is going to happen. People, from my experience, like to bluster and run their mouths, take action from the anonymity and safety from the internet… but when it comes to actually putting their money where their mouth is they won't.

No one wants to give up the social security they've paid in, risk the chance of losing their homes to the new government, or lose the money they have in the banks to a currency change that no one else will recognize. Or lose their disability checks, food stamps, or anything else. They talk about change but ask them to actually give up their comforts.

The truth of the matter is that when it comes down to it people will be covering their asses and jumping overboard off the bandwagon like rats from sinking ships. 

When people are too lazy to come together to do anything for other causes they 'believe in' they're not gonna do anything for this one.  So we have a bunch of people clicking a button on the net and running their mouths. But it's not just one click that they get; they get unlimited votes and anyone that wants to vote from wherever have internet access in the world.

I see a whole lot of bull dog mouth and puppy dog ass, fingers typing out checks that they can't cash.

Don't forget about the lovely branch of the government that has been making people's lives a living hell since 9/11.  Homeland Security.

Those who seriously do try to do something… we won't have to worry about them long. 

Texas... specifically? It can't patrol it's own Mexican border properly, how can it protect all of them?  This isn't South Park with the fence made of Canadians... :P

[Will]

They did vote in favor of statehood - but it's complicated.

(Source)

A majority of the votes cast were in favor of becoming a state.  However, there was a significant amount of the population (half a million) that didn't vote on that particular issue at all.  Did they not care one way or the other?  Did they think it was a dumb question and things should stay the way they are?  No real way of telling from the results.

Also, the decision to let PR become a new state still has to go through the House and Senate - that's two more Senators and 4-5 more Representatives, and the current 'class' will want to make sure that the 'transfer students' are on the 'correct' side of the aisle.

It's even less conclusive than that.  It was a two part question.  The first question was to ask if people were content with the current status, and of those that voted, a majority voted no.  On the followup question, which offered three alternatives to the current status, a majority of those who voted chose statehood.  So you're breaking things down into a majority of a majority, which does not equal a majority of total voters.  That's before you even consider the huge number of people who didn't vote.  So yeah, hardly a guarantee of statehood.

[kckolbe]

My understanding is they aren't too particularly happy with Mitt's visits .. or the GOPs attitude in general.

To be fair, they were fairly angry at Obama's visit as well, though that seemed more a one-time incident as opposed to a prolonged clash.

[Callie Del Noire]

To be fair, they were fairly angry at Obama's visit as well, though that seemed more a one-time incident as opposed to a prolonged clash.

True, though the vibe I get is that he didn't automatically run over them like Mitt did. I do know there is an undercurrent of discontent at what they see as only 'token attention paid to garner support back in the states with Spanish speakers'

Like they are a spot on a checklist between 'cinco de mayo appearance' and 'promise to remain back adding Cuba'.

[kckolbe]

I read complaints of shutting down traffic on a large part of the island, some costs for security and other preparations, and the fact that he walked away with over a million in fundraising.  But yeah, the biggest gripe seemed to be that his speech was just too vague and didn't offer solutions to Puerto Rico problems.

Honestly, any group of people that can be critical and a little pissed off at both Democrats and Republicans is a group I want voting.  I hope they are on board before 2016, though I am not counting on it happening that quickly.

[Lux12]

True, though the vibe I get is that he didn't automatically run over them like Mitt did. I do know there is an undercurrent of discontent at what they see as only 'token attention paid to garner support back in the states with Spanish speakers'

Like they are a spot on a checklist between 'cinco de mayo appearance' and 'promise to remain back adding Cuba'.

I'm fine so long as they dislike the GOP more.They can at least say that if they're a state they can make the powers that be care. However, the Puerto Ricans haven't exactly been extraordinarily sympathetic to the rest of us and still have some form of notable opposition up until a few decades ago.

[Callie Del Noire]

I'm fine so long as they dislike the GOP more.They can at least say that if they're a state they can make the powers that be care. However, the Puerto Ricans haven't exactly been extraordinarily sympathetic to the rest of us and still have some form of notable opposition up until a few decades ago.

The GOP won't let them in till they are sure that they are in their pocket.

[Lux12]

The GOP aren't everyone and some of are more moderate.

[Callie Del Noire]

The GOP aren't everyone and some of are more moderate.

6 seats on the house of reps floor.. could overturn their majority.. or stymie it.. sooooo.. I'm betting they WON'T back statehood till they are sure they get the bennies of the new seats.

[Cyrano Johnson]

A couple of thoughts:

First, Americans shouldn't be disheartened or frightened by the secession petitions. Partly I say this is because I'm Canadian and have lived through what a real secession bid looks like; also it's just really obvious that the secession petitioners are a bunch of sad wasters, a relatively tiny group who filed petitions online on behalf of a bunch of states that few them live in, the functional equivalent of clueless second-graders threatening to run away from home because Daddy wouldn't let them eat all the chocolate cake they wanted. (The Canadian example is heartening in other ways. Quebecois secessionism was much, much more sophisticated and dedicated than this -- it only died irrevocably when the PQ was co-opted into participating in Confederation and the Parliament -- but it ultimately failed because its chosen scenario was based on fantasies like "sovereignty association" [wherein Quebec would conveniently not have to assume all its own fiscal responsibilities on acquiring independence] and on getting France to somehow mysteriously compel the US into diplomatically recognizing a sovereign Quebec. The moral being that fantasy can carry a "movement" for a long while, but the more reality starts smacking the marks in the face, the harder it becomes to sustain.)

Second, the United States is divided today in a way it hasn't been since the Civil War... but there's a crucial difference. The Civil War sprang from real, irreconciliable economic difference between two major regions: the North, which couldn't afford to allow slavery to expand, and the South, which believed its economic power was nothing without slavery as a vital and expanding force. (Both of them were right in their way, at least to an extent, as the South's subsequent relative poverty once it lost the war it recklessly started proved.) Granted that reality should have told the South of the Civil War era that it could win far more by politics than it could by open war, there was still a far more concrete reason for the open war, however foolish it proved to be.

There are no such irreconciliable regional differences today. There is no compelling reason for the white rural South and western so-called "Empty Quarter" regions to fear today's urban, modern America other than that they have been told that they should do so; in real terms they're actually far more reliant on collaboration than confrontation, in a way that wasn't nearly as true of the antebellum South. Today's division endures only so long as a more-or-less open fraud of a "conservative movement" can keep it alive. The derangements of that movement are just the fantasies sold to them by the party's moneyed base so that it can keep bilking its marks. That's a division that can quite plausibly be broken down -- however vehement it now seems -- without the trauma of war.

Whether it will remains to be seen, but there's plenty of cause to be hopeful IMO.

[loki]

These are very dangerous assumptions that you are making.

My apologies for my rant to anyone who made it through the whole thing.  But begging for unity when throwing around names like Hitler to compare or insinuate our current political climate is just downright foolish and represents a complete lack of historical knowledge, hypocritical of what was requested from others.

First off, I wasn't making assumptions that our president is like Hitler. I was however, pointing out the fact that if things in history are not taught properly to our youth, then they can and will repeat themselves. It is human nature to make mistakes, especially, if we were not taught from others about previous mistakes and their outcomes.

Also when I was growing up, there was a huge, solid, one piece of a  country call the Soviet Union or USSR, Which... if I remember my life history correctly, is now torn apart and separated into individual countries. A feat that no one would of ever believed would happen, but did. And yet, we have people here today that say that it can't happen here.... history can and will repeat itself if we don't learn from it. Everything has a starting point.

Now, am I one of the ones that wants the secession, no. Do I hate Obama, no. I might not agree with what and how he has done his job so far, but that's my opinion and that's what makes this country great. The right to disagree with something against another. But there is trouble brewing with our great nation and people need to be aware of it instead of burying their heads in the sand. How to fix this, well that's anyone's guess. But to smugly act like nothing is wrong and would never go wrong, is dangerous.

[TheWildcat]

First of all *starts singing* Blame Canada! But seriously, even if ome did manage to secede, there would be people that say what I saw a few pages back: "I secede from your secession!" Back when Alabama seceded just before the Civil War, a day later there was a meeting in a tavern just outside Double Springs. The result? Winston county effectively became the Free State of Winston, basically saying, "We're staying out of it, let us know when you're finished." Furthermore, Puerto Rico has been waiting for a long time to become a state, and I've heard rumors of it happening soon since before Clinton was unsuccessfully impeached. I would love to see how they would vote, and I'm also interested in seeing what other territories like the Virgin Islands would say given the choice for statehood. Oh, and, what besides Castro's brother is stopping us from making Cuba a territory?

[Oniya]

Oh, and, what besides Castro's brother is stopping us from making Cuba a territory?

Not wanting it?

[Callie Del Noire]

Not wanting it?

+1..


though.. I think we're handling Cuba wrong.. we got TONS of successful Cubans here in florida who talk about family 'back home' even though they have grown up here. Economically it would make us their biggest trading partner overnight.

[Lux12]

Oh, and, what besides Castro's brother is stopping us from making Cuba a territory?

Well as others have said, no one really wants it. Second it's a sovereign nation and taking it over would come with a great deal of difficulty and controversy.Third, I'm not certain anyone sees a major economic or political advantage to be gained by taking it.I believe that Cuba certainly does have some economic strengths, but other people need to see it that way. They need to feel that they have something huge to gain from seizing it. Lastly, we have other problems right now and taking over Cuba is pretty low on the list of things everyone is thinking about.