Toxic Masculinity

[JessicaHouse]

I think "toxic masculinity" is actually an old-fashioned idea, though it was called by a different name before. If you consider that toxic masculinity is often used to describe behavior that is abusive, or men who consider themselves entitled to sex, or men who are cruel to women and/or other men, then you basically have a list of behaviors that a classic "gentleman" was told never to engage in. So, if instead of pointing out the bad we maybe tried to encourage people to be gentlemen (and ladies), and set up good examples with the understanding that no one will ever meet the standards perfectly, maybe we'll do better as a society.

I think as a society we try too hard to define the negative, but too often fail to define the positive.

[Skynet]

I think "toxic masculinity" is actually an old-fashioned idea, though it was called by a different name before. If you consider that toxic masculinity is often used to describe behavior that is abusive, or men who consider themselves entitled to sex, or men who are cruel to women and/or other men, then you basically have a list of behaviors that a classic "gentleman" was told never to engage in. So, if instead of pointing out the bad we maybe tried to encourage people to be gentlemen (and ladies), and set up good examples with the understanding that no one will ever meet the standards perfectly, maybe we'll do better as a society.

I think as a society we try too hard to define the negative, but too often fail to define the positive.

These aren't mutually exclusive things. A lot of people who discuss "toxic masculinity," this thread included, also discussed positive ways of dealing with personal problems as well as social interactions with others.

[Silk]

These aren't mutually exclusive things. A lot of people who discuss "toxic masculinity," this thread included, also discussed positive ways of dealing with personal problems as well as social interactions with others.

While true, there IS a prevalance of just people wagging their finger and saying "Toxic masculinity is bad mkay" without never really giving a clear definition of what it is outside of anedotal examples of a situation that fits them at the time. But never really giving people a way to "not" be. It's a pretty big reason as to who Jordan Peterson, for all of his faults, resonated with so many disenfranshised men, because he came on the scene on the message "I will help you be better" than "I want/demand you to do better"

[Remiel]

Yeah, Jessica has a point.  We're very quick, as a society, to lambast men for bad behavior; but there isn't really a model for what constitutes "good" behavior (Keanu Reeves not withstanding, of course).

As a thought experiment, let's say that you're a typical heterosexual 16-22 year-old male.  Your modus operandi is pretty simple: you just want to get laid.

If you've been raised on a culture of sexual entitlement (if you do x, y, and z, you'll get the girl), and if you look around and see the jocks and frat boys behaving badly and still getting laid, what model do you think you're going to follow?

[Skynet]

Yeah, Jessica has a point.  We're very quick, as a society, to lambast men for bad behavior; but there isn't really a model for what constitutes "good" behavior (Keanu Reeves not withstanding, of course).

That was not what I interpreted from her post. Her post read to me was not to talk about the negative societal aspects and instead "focus on the good," which ironically would put us all back at Square 1 because a lot of traditional social standards promise "do x/y/z and marriage/happiness is a guarantee." Which sadly it's not.

And society does have models for "good" behavior. It often differs by political and cultural affiliation. Conservative and religious Abrahamic faiths tell you to follow God's law, marry the opposite gender and only have sex then, control your urges, and engage in activities which fit your gender (men liking sports, fighting for a cause, etc). More liberal and feminist groups tend to be malleable, and in terms of sex prioritize consent (whether the people involved are willing) and that alternative social structures (open marriages, same-sex, etc) are viable pathways. But what may be the toughest nut for outsiders and incels to crack is that said latter groups also say that nobody is 'owed' sex, aka just because you do x/y/z doesn't mean that people are obliged to sleep with you. It is usually read by conservatives as a defeatist attitude, although in reality it's merely prioritizing the reduction of non-consensual sex (not making people to feel pressured to do so if they aren't enthusiastic).

[RedRose]

Yeah, Jessica has a point.  We're very quick, as a society, to lambast men for bad behavior; but there isn't really a model for what constitutes "good" behavior (Keanu Reeves not withstanding, of course).

As a thought experiment, let's say that you're a typical heterosexual 16-22 year-old male.  Your modus operandi is pretty simple: you just want to get laid.

If you've been raised on a culture of sexual entitlement (if you do x, y, and z, you'll get the girl), and if you look around and see the jocks and frat boys behaving badly and still getting laid, what model do you think you're going to follow?

Depends on who you are deep down, how far you are ready to go for sex, if you find it more important than morality. It tells a lot about a person (I know men who married as virgins/had only one Relationship/only serious ones). When I was in my early 20's a good number of my male friends had 0/1 experience. I've dated virgins who planned on waiting for marriage or engagement and did not "change their mind" after weeks/months. FTR it doesn't mean they cannot be toxic on another topic. Just like a man with a pink tie, cologne, not afraid to touch another man, because that is ok in his culture, might still be super racist, sexist or classist. If anything in some of the most conservative traditions you'll see much more touching between boys. Public, "normal". Holding hands, arm in arm, sleepovers in the same bed in their 20s. Doesn't help their Gilead views.

As someone whose first language isn't English I am forever puzzled by "I'm not crying" etc. I mean, cry or don't, disclose it or don't, but what is it??

[Phelan8801]

Depends on who you are deep down, how far you are ready to go for sex, if you find it more important than morality. It tells a lot about a person (I know men who married as virgins/had only one Relationship/only serious ones). When I was in my early 20's a good number of my male friends had 0/1 experience. I've dated virgins who planned on waiting for marriage or engagement and did not "change their mind" after weeks/months. FTR it doesn't mean they cannot be toxic on another topic. Just like a man with a pink tie, cologne, not afraid to touch another man, because that is ok in his culture, might still be super racist, sexist or classist. If anything in some of the most conservative traditions you'll see much more touching between boys. Public, "normal". Holding hands, arm in arm, sleepovers in the same bed in their 20s. Doesn't help their Gilead views.

As someone whose first language isn't English I am forever puzzled by "I'm not crying" etc. I mean, cry or don't, disclose it or don't, but what is it??

Crying is considered a sign of weakness in a lot of cultures. As a Mexican I grew up a very sensitive and anxious boy, and still have memories of being told not to cry by several people.  Because I wasn't good at following that specific direction, I got bullied a lot. So, this is a meme that makes fun of that notion. I find it to be an actually positive meme, because it communicates that men do cry, and makes fun of the fact that we're just scared to admit it. Both of those are positive things in my view.

I don't have an issue with the term toxic masculinity, there are clearly parts of masculine culture that are toxic to kids, such as the afore mentioned example. But, I do have an issue with radical feminism, the brand that portrays all masculinity as being TOXIC.

[Remiel]

Holding hands, arm in arm, sleepovers in the same bed in their 20s. Doesn't help their Gilead views.

That must be a cultural difference, then.   Men definitely don't do that in America.

[RedRose]

I can't tell you if they do in America! But I can tell you I have seen this on three continents that I can think of :) The concept that this would be a sign of open mindedness is really wrong. Two boys arm in arm yelled at me about lack of perceived observance of some custom… lol. Without seeking far off examples, Simply visiting my super religious cousins shows me there is more normalcy to this.

[Tolvo]

I mean, I'm an American I can attest to at least witnessing those things. "Bro culture" can at times be rather homo erotic. A lot of young men and boys end up very sexually confused because of our homophobic, sexist, and prudish society.

Though I would not say men who believe in abstinence unless married are not toxic, rather I find that ideology to be quite harmful and that it can often reinforce and support a lot of toxic ideas. If it is a mentality of forced abstinence.

[Azuresun]

While true, there IS a prevalance of just people wagging their finger and saying "Toxic masculinity is bad mkay" without never really giving a clear definition of what it is outside of anedotal examples of a situation that fits them at the time. But never really giving people a way to "not" be. It's a pretty big reason as to who Jordan Peterson, for all of his faults, resonated with so many disenfranshised men, because he came on the scene on the message "I will help you be better" than "I want/demand you to do better"

I agree. Like I mentioned before, I think there's been a lot of effort put into telling women that they can find or make a new way and don't have to be beholden to the old ways, but not nearly as much effort spent on sending a comparable message to men beyond a vague "don't be a jerk, don't be a wimpy Nice Guy".

And society does have models for "good" behavior. It often differs by political and cultural affiliation. Conservative and religious Abrahamic faiths tell you to follow God's law, marry the opposite gender and only have sex then, control your urges, and engage in activities which fit your gender (men liking sports, fighting for a cause, etc). More liberal and feminist groups tend to be malleable, and in terms of sex prioritize consent (whether the people involved are willing) and that alternative social structures (open marriages, same-sex, etc) are viable pathways. But what may be the toughest nut for outsiders and incels to crack is that said latter groups also say that nobody is 'owed' sex, aka just because you do x/y/z doesn't mean that people are obliged to sleep with you. It is usually read by conservatives as a defeatist attitude, although in reality it's merely prioritizing the reduction of non-consensual sex (not making people to feel pressured to do so if they aren't enthusiastic).

I agree, though I think for young men, the universal and sympathetic wishes for respect and affection things are more tightly entangled with sex, and they're more likely to think the only ways to gain them are through having sex with a women (implicitly, by any means necessary). It's more acceptable for a man to say he wants a girlfriend or to get laid than to openly admit he just wants a friend--just look at how a man being "friendzoned" by a woman is regarded as a failure to get the real prize.

[Tolvo]

If I'm to be honest, a lot of this thread seems like deflection and refusal to accept there are many laid out bits of advice, ways to not give into toxic behaviors, how to not treat women and people in general as if they exist solely to make one matter to be owned by them. Some of these things have been brought up in thread and seemingly been ignored, others are often pretty widespread like the controversial Gillette commercial(Which is imperfect but has a general message of don't join in bullying, stop bullying to be a role model to young boys).

[Skynet]

I think a major problem is that the OP labeled the thread Toxic Masculinity, but the starting conversation point was to discuss what traditionally masculine behaviors can be considered positive in a broad sense. Basically a sort of mislabeled product. And given that the fact that the two are related (you cannot talk about societal ideals without also discussing what happens to men who fail to live up to said ideals) means that one can then argue that a poster is focusing on the "wrong" subject.

[Tolvo]

Yeah I'm not sure is the thread for discussing and addressing toxic masculinity, what it is, ways to work towards helping to improve society and make life better for everyone which includes men? Is the thread for in general defending masculinity toxic and non-toxic? Is the thread for criticizing feminist movements and analysis? Is the thread for venting about how hard it is being a man? It's really unclear to me currently. I'm still confused that multiple posts claimed posts in this thread don't exist. I might just bow out since this thread might just not be for people who study sociology.

[Skynet]

Since it's a lazy Sunday for me, I'll compile some posts of for lack of a better term, positive examples/working solutions to existing societal problems in this thread.

Eye of Horus touching upon self-sacrifice and how certain things like strength can be positive, but it becomes toxic when it's taken to ridiculous extremes.

CopperLilly expanded on specific examples to the above.

Oniya did the same for self-sacrifice.

Lilias linked a compilation here showing how men who fit into stereotypical "masculine" roles can still retain that while doing actions unexpected of their gender.

I'm tooting my own horn a bit, but Olly explained how he overcame his ordeal with an abusive ex-girlfriend and how he's making something good from it, by showing others in similar situations they aren't alone. Several people in the comments section explained how said video got them to see the signs in their own abusive relationship.

Oniya sharing a poem discussing that expressing your emotions is not wrong or a sign of weakness.

[Oniya]

Slight correction - it wasn't a poem, but a pair of tweets from an author.

And just to add a bit more positive reinforcement to the thread:

Patrick Swayze and what people loved about him.

[Remiel]

Yeah I'm not sure is the thread for discussing and addressing toxic masculinity, what it is, ways to work towards helping to improve society and make life better for everyone which includes men? Is the thread for in general defending masculinity toxic and non-toxic? Is the thread for criticizing feminist movements and analysis? Is the thread for venting about how hard it is being a man?

All of the above, really.  I was hoping to hear from a variety of perspectives and viewpoints.  I think we can all agree that there are aspects of how we currently view masculinity that are, in fact, toxic, and we can all agree (apparently) that there are aspects of masculinity that are healthy and desirable.  The question is, then, is how we reinforce and reward the latter while working to diminish the former.

[Azuresun]

Yeah I'm not sure is the thread for discussing and addressing toxic masculinity, what it is, ways to work towards helping to improve society and make life better for everyone which includes men? Is the thread for in general defending masculinity toxic and non-toxic? Is the thread for criticizing feminist movements and analysis? Is the thread for venting about how hard it is being a man? It's really unclear to me currently. I'm still confused that multiple posts claimed posts in this thread don't exist. I might just bow out since this thread might just not be for people who study sociology.

My mistake was that I posted on the third page before looking at the second page. Now backing out of this thread before I put my foot in my mouth again.  :-(

[Tolvo]

I don't mean to say people shouldn't give their views, it is just a bit confusing and at times these things are antithetical to each other. So it can be a very messy thread when it's all in one, but then splitting threads can also make people more confused or have less engage with the subject matter.

[Lustful Bride]

There's a channel called Like Stories of Old which has quite a few videos that touch on Masculinity and ties it into philosophical and archetypal ideas and theories. Masculine and Feminine energies and how they can be seen in pop culture.

Their video on Moonlight feels like a good fit here

This one on the warrior archetype was also quite fascinating.

[Skynet]

While the video's main subject is not Toxic Masculinity per se, a ContraPoints video recently came out discussing men's issues in today's society, and how a lot of traditional societal rhetoric and leftist groups as well have not incorporated ideal solutions for common men's problems:

[Remiel]

Some very excellent points made in that video.  I particularly resonated with the bit that men are, by default, either invisible or potentially dangerous.

[Twisted Crow]

I have to admit that her pacing and erratic "Seth MacFarlene-esqe" joke shift cutaways can be distracting (and sometimes annoying) but... I do find some merit to some things that she had touched on. I find it refreshing to see someone actually say that we could use a movement of our own.

That's honestly a first to hear something like that for me, all while I've been thinking on how the hell it could work for years.

[Remiel]

I think she's dead right that women can't tell men what an example of healthy masculinity should be.  We have to decide it for ourselves.

And then we can't do the "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" thing that we usually do.