The Struggles of the Politically 'Purple'

[Twisted Crow]

... And Elliquiy already has topical biases, although instead of like/dislike it manifests posted on the activity in various threads or lack thereof. There's only three threads really on PROC which receive regular updates, and most subjects have their discussion and understanding heavily geared towards a US bias. When's the last time you've seen a thread on British politics and social affairs outside of the Brexit one?

Yeah, that's fair.

[Twisted Crow]

Dally Attempts to Understand the Humor Police

Found this today. And I felt like bringing this general subject up due to having some conversations about it with others, lately.

Jeff Dunham's Comedy Is Offensive And Racist

On the subject of Jeff, he's made me laugh at times. However, some jokes are more played out than others. Things like Jose's "On a Stick" punchline had been a broken record to me. I haven't seen his latest stuff, so this isn't so much in defense of him as much as it is talking about liberties of comedy itself and what I call the Humor Police. This is more about what I feel is important to consider with humor. I am going to try using use other examples here and there. For one, I do think that there is a stark contrast from certain comics when compared to others. I mean, we have Michael Richards, Louis CK and... people like Jeff Dunham and Gabriel Iglesias. But I am mainly linking this so people can understand what got me started on this whole track. This has very little to do with Jeff, actually.

So, I have had this talk with others many times before and I still don't quite understand where the line is according to the public. My theory is that there isn't one at all. I always felt like healthy comedy doesn't discriminate. If you can't make fun of yourself and laugh, or just have animus in your heart... then you probably shouldn't go on stage where you can hurt people with it. I've seen comedians like Jeff do their thing. People like Dave Chapelle, someone known to make fun of everything and everyone in the solar system. Bill Burr is another comedian that makes me laugh that isn't exactly a fan-favorite among others. Mostly because I think that they don't see the true targets of his type of comedy. They think they do, but they don't. The talks I have about this almost always begin and end the same way. I've had this re-run for years, though not really with fellow Elliers yet. It is my opinion that these critics don't understand what this form of comedy actually does because they can't unbuckle from their knee-jerk reaction to it. They don't peel for layers, they simply take it at face value. This "skin-deep" humor mentality. That initial sensitivity is sometimes more than enough to drown out the layers of what the spirit of the joke might be. Let's first tell a story:

Some years ago (before I found Elliquiy), I was at this friend's place at a party. We were playing a racing game (Forza or something, I can't remember) while a few others partied and watched on. The living room had people of various races. While we were playing, I once had a black friend pass me and this other friend (who also happened to be black) during one of our laps. My friend with me protests along with me, a classic "What the--?!" sort of response. To which the friend passing us obnoxiously spits back with "Yuuup! Keep your black ass back there, son. Back of the bus, Rosa Parks!" To which I and everyone else laughed... except for many of the other white friends in the room. I know these people, I've seen and heard them express amusement in the past. I can tell who's laughing and who's not laughing. Taking quick glances around and feeling the room, they all had that same reaction that I recognized. And it drives me up a wall everytime I see it. That nervous smile, the exchanged glances, that hesitation... that overall vibe that screams "Is it funny? Should I laugh at this? Is it okay if I find it funny?"

I remember the friend that passed us kept going with it for a while, not letting up with it. Even making puns (because we were playing a racing video game). I found it hilarious (and still do), but the energy in the room started to change and get tense in places. A few groans and faint muttering of discomfort here and there. So, I finally cut in with something along the lines of: "Hey, take it easy with the black suffrage jokes. What the fuck is wrong with you?" and then I let a beat drop before my punchline: "...You're gonna offend all of the white people in the room if you keep this up." Score! It got a giant laugh and the energy shifted again to a more positive one. Is it "making fun" of something serious? Perhaps. I guess... but I still find it rather healthy to laugh about. To me, the difference between a good joke and a bad one can depend a lot on the target, intention and how it's phrased. Now, looking back... I feel like some of my friends at the time might have felt "outed" with that one. But, there are more layers to it than I laid on the surface. One might look at it as shaming my white friends, another could look at it as me saying "Hey guys, lighten the hell up. What he said was funny and there was no genuine malice behind it. Stop being weird with guilt and learn to laugh at shit."

This can be found (or not, apparently) in a lot with comedy that fellow men might enjoy (or otherwise find comfort in). This sense of humor is rooted in the fact that many of us struggle to talk about our feelings openly. In order to not go completely insane, we men often feel to vent this pain through the filter of comedy. Some of what I consider to be the best jokes around oddly find their genesis in some very dark subject matter. And when we do a little digging, we discover what these jokes are referring to. It's been my belief that (as a tool) laughter helps us transcend that pain and suffering, suspending it to view the absurdity of something for just a moment. Which I feel to be an important part of what humor is. Humor, at its best, helps us evaluate our human condition, allowing us to transcend that pain while challenging us to question what we can do to change something for the better. In my eyes, this is what good humor does. This is when intention can be important. Going back to Jeff Dunham for a moment. I mean, when Achmed the Dead Terrorist is a fan favorite in the Middle East, should it not raise questions as to why? When I see Christians and Muslims bonding on the internet over something they both find humorous, it's rather interesting for me to behold. As for others, just how can Dave Chapelle pull off what he has done for many years? Is it just "because he's black"? Or could it be his intention being made clear in his humor? What of Bill Burr? He jokes about race, sports, things men do and say, things women do and say, etc. and he's beloved by people you'd think would be offended. When I look at these comedians, I don't feel any hatred from them. Maybe ignorance, sometimes. Yet good comedians tend to make that ignorance the target of their humor.

Take a look at Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles. Sure, people might argue that "it just was a different time and humor got away with a lot more". But what some don't understand about that film (even still, to this day) is what the movie was making fun of constantly when it came to racial humor. It was more than just shocking or absurd for the sake of it. From ignorant townfolks to stupid KKK members, the joke was always on them.

'These Are People Of The Land. The Common Clay Of The New West.

You Know… Morons.'

They were the dupes, the targets; the butt of the joke. Can you make another Blazing Saddles, today? No. And by 'No', I mean 'Hell No.' Mel Brooks had people like Pryor and Mooney validate his script, even if you got 2019's equivalent validated somehow in a similar fashion, it could cause a complete and utter shit show. It's humor, as presented, took racism and ignorance and showcased it in absurdity. That isn't the same thing as celebrating it. But we would likely never get anything like this again because... well, Humor Police.

A theory of mine concerning this country concerning matters like race and sex borrow's from Hanlon's razor: We either somewhere forgot the difference between ignorance and malice, or we never truly understood the difference to begin with.

[Twisted Crow]

Dally Attempts to Understand the Humor Police

A theory of mine concerning this country concerning matters like race and sex borrow's from Hanlon's razor: We either somewhere forgot the difference between ignorance and malice, or we never truly understood the difference to begin with.

To clarify, concerning humor related to subjects like that.

[Twisted Crow]

One more. A more visual example of how that works as opposed to, well... Louis CK getting away with some of the things he got away with in the past in stand-up.

Bill Burr on sports, white athletes, black athletes, ignorance, the list goes on.

Zero hate, all laughs and a lot of controversial bullets dodged here.

[TheGlyphstone]

George Carlin, legendary comic, had some pointed things to say about 'punching down' in comedy.

My phone is weirding out and refusing to allow me to copy paste from my clipboard here, so I can't give a direct link. (Someone else mind doing it?) Suffice to say that he didnt approve.

[Skynet]

Dally Attempts to Understand the Humor Police

The major thing with comedy is that it's subjective, and while Glyphstone pointed out the "punching down" aspect, it's not really a universal rule so much as an advisory on how to use one's power responsibly.

The article, and often complaints about PC Culture ruining comedy, almost invariably touches upon race and gender. And sometimes it's not the joke itself that is the problem so much as who is doing the joking. When Chris Rock performed his "Black People vs N***as skit," the intent was to demonstrate how some individuals in the African-American community perform bad behavior which affects the perception of them as a whole.  Rock later regretted this decision when a sizable portion of his fanbase was using his jokes as a shield against racist accusations when they expressed dislike of black people and black culture ("oh he's one of the good ones"). You mentioned Dave Chappelle earlier, and he went through a similar phase where he left comedy for a while in part because there were fans who used his jokes as more than just "jokes."

When 1 out of 6 Americans voted for Trump, people are defending the actions of ICE when they torture immigrants and deprive them of water and basic hygiene, and lawyers have successfully used "trans panic" defenses to justify the murder of transgender people, jokes making fun of said groups can then inherit a very nasty tone. Before the Internet really took off, a lot of media portrayals of transgender women involved them as sexual predators seeking to trick straight guys into sleeping with them, often as a punchline (the movie Dude Where's My Car? is a more recent example). And given there's still a sizable percentage of the population who believes this, said jokes risk reinforcing negative attitudes if the person you're meant to be laughing at is them and not with them.

Of course, conservatives have a very different sense of humor, and for many of them the cruelty is the punchline. Take this Stephen Crowder clip, for example. Many would not call it comedy, given the lack of build-up or punchline, and the cheap gag is "Mexicans love burritos." But Crowder is a wildly popular YouTube host with tens of millions of views, so there are many people who do enjoy these kind of jokes.

Celebrity comedians aren't telling jokes among gamer friends in the privacy of their own homes, but to a larger audience. And people posting jokes on social media run the risk of being taken out of context or losing the tone in a written medium, where many people who aren't "in on it" can come across the post by itself and in some cases not know the identity or life story of the poster.

It really comes down to matters of taste and cruelty. Race and gender issues as comedic subjects touch on very recent ongoing social wounds, and humor can and has been used as a means of poking fun at societal hypocrisy and institutions. But it can just as easily be weaponized and turned the other way, like blackface minstrel shows.

[Callie Del Noire]

George Carlin, legendary comic, had some pointed things to say about 'punching down' in comedy.

My phone is weirding out and refusing to allow me to copy paste from my clipboard here, so I can't give a direct link. (Someone else mind doing it?) Suffice to say that he didnt approve.

Something like this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahaswell/2019/09/28/un-pc-comedy-lovers-george-carlin-and-eddie-murphy-arent-on-your-team/#1c56cb3d1ed4

[TheGlyphstone]

Something like this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahaswell/2019/09/28/un-pc-comedy-lovers-george-carlin-and-eddie-murphy-arent-on-your-team/#1c56cb3d1ed4

That's the one, thanks.

[Twisted Crow]

For people that don't want to manage their adblockers. This is the Carlin and Larry king interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Xkey41AYQ

Denis Leary is another that comes to mind, one that I felt could be seen as an Andrew Dice Clay. Odd thing is, I liked Denis Leary's humor and didn't like Andrew Dice Clay at all.  :-\

[Twisted Crow]

Oh, going back to Blazing Saddles for a moment and some of what Sky mentioned above. With some conservatives, it reminds me that there seems to be a very different take on that movie and the particular the era it was made. The famous "Where the white women at?" still being quoted, yet not everyone seems to remember that the joke was on KKK members that would take the bait.

Talking about that movie reminds me of some conversations that have this spirit of "Ah, those were the days, you could say offensive things in movies and people had a thicker skin about it." Or something along those lines. As Sky mentioned with cruelty, it seems that that shocking part is mentioned and remembered fondly... yet the intended target of the joke is sometimes "forgotten" or just doesn't come up in these conversations I have with some. It's one movie that sometimes saddens me to talk about because the movie is hilarious to me. Yet, I'm often faced with either this weird Mandela effect thing people have with it, or people that find it to be in bad form for whatever reasons they have. Some being understandable, as not everyone likes race humor because it might hit too close to home for some depending on how it's executed.

[Tolvo]

As has been mentioned regarding punching down it is a question of what jokes hurt people, what people are constantly getting hurt, what is being sensitive? If I went in front of a general audience and made jokes about cis and heterosexual people being goofy and weird and laughing at them would that be well received, how many death threats would I get, how many people might actually come and physically hurt me or kill me? Meanwhile it seems every season Family Guy gets to spread conspiracy theories and outright bigotry on national television with misinformation about trans women cutting off their dicks and jokes like "I identify as a basketball" and such. Latest episode featuring that below. Content warnings for extreme transphobia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7p5hGwF1DM

Again what is the joke? The joke is just hatred, it is "Aren't trans and nonbinary people weird freaks?! Let's laugh at them!" A common part of bigoted humor is it is extremely lazy. Frankie Boyle has said some pretty horrible things I'd say he shouldn't, but he's generally someone I'd say is very funny even when he's saying horrible things. I still quite enjoy many of his jokes and even the ones I think he shouldn't have said have an actual build up and punchline to them with wordplay. And depending on the stage of his career he has spent a lot more time punching up and ranting and poking at rich people, at people fucking over those who have it worse in society, the humor is more often about taking people down a peg. But when the crux of a joke is to take someone down a peg and said person/group is already considered to be one of the lowest in society it more so encourages hate crimes and violence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50166900

https://www.brandwatch.com/reports/transphobia/

Keeping in mind that there has been a lot of research into how groups and people are viewed especially online, these reports for instance on the conversations around transgender people online and how of 10 million messages examined during a period of time over 1 million messages and posts were openly hostile to trans people. Which was defined as contained actual threats and open use of slurs and genocidal support for the extermination of trans people, so that's not even people just being generally transphobic or ignorant but pure hatred witnessed and categorized, and it was 1/10th of it, with a small portion still being even positive. Everywhere I go I get South Park jokes regurgitated at me, I get compared to Mr Garrison, there are spikes in transphobic violence and suicides that happen around comedy specials on Netflix and Comedy Central. People are having their lives destroyed and are being killed. And it's over jokes that a five year old could craft, they're thoughtless ignorant and contribute nothing positive at all. They encourage violence and spread ignorance.

Dave Chapelle or someone just barking the t slur and giggling isn't really funny to anyone without malice in their heart or without a severe amount of ignorance within them(Or a severe lack of understanding might be a better way to phrase it). And jokes of these sorts will most often target the marginalized and will be more vindictive towards them. Joking about "Ha white guys are dumb am I right?" What is the likelihood someone listening has been physically threatened or killed over such an idea? It's a very extremely low percentage. "[t slurs] are just men who cut off their dicks and want to fuck children haha! I don't care if you identify as an attack helicopter you're just a mentally ill man!" is something that is used to justify legislating me out of existence and an ongoing genocide against transgender people.

Now we do have instances where people can make understandable mistakes or questionable stories and jokes, Louis CK is a supreme bastard but the scene of the awkward moment from his show with him sleeping with a trans woman was very awkward but did at least examine how the fears were based on societal perceptions and his own insecurities, not that the woman he was sleeping with was "Really a man." It was not perfect but was saying a lot more than the standard forms of comedy surrounding trans people.

And as I was typing this you mention Mel Brooks, who I think in interviews can be a bit of an asshole and can miss the mark when looking back critically(Regarding mainly anti-queer humor) but he is a part of a long tradition of Jewish people using humor to control narratives surrounding their oppression and to mock Nazis and Anti-Semites and create large cultural touchstones around essentially "Fuck the Nazis." His absurdist satire can be really great and while at times I think things like the Producers can be a bit uncomfortable in between bouts of laughter it is a point that not many Nazis like that film and most seem to really hate it. Humor even self depreciating humor can often be a way for people who are marginalized to control narratives around themselves and cope with what they've gone through, what their people have and are going through. And I think it can be both hilarious and a great tool for fighting ignorance and hatred and as a way to tackle various subjects while punching up. When I'm with other trans people I love to joke about being trans but with actual community knowledge and experience so I get to have fun moments like "If I ever get GRS I'm getting a photo of myself holding the book Tuck Everlasting." Or "You know the journey will help me realize the girldick was inside us all along." Or any variation of trans women fighting the battle of the bulge jokes. Sometimes there can be things that are funny in between the horrible, or that are funny and ironic about something horrible. Like when someone calls me a trans woman and follows up with "You were born a woman! You can't become a man no matter what you do!" With like "Well I don't have the heart to tell her she confused the terminology and in her transphobic rant was rather validating. How hatefully supportive of her."

[Twisted Crow]

Wow, I haven't watched Family Guy in forever. But that bit isn't too surprising to me. While Family Guy I think tries the "humor with moral lesson or deep message" thing, I think it still struggles with its execution for reasons that you've mentioned already. South Park is another that is rather... bipolar about that in a lot of ways. Don't watch that much anymore, either. Anyway, there are too many things at once that is just slapped together in this scene, so the intended joke (if any) doesn't scream anything to me that's particularly clear. *shrugs* I couldn't tell you. Like I said, I don't watch it anymore like I used to for many reasons. Now, that I think about it... I don't watch much of any of what Seth McFarlane's people make anymore. Hmmm... seems that A Million Ways To Die In The West was the nail in the coffin for me.  ::)

A common part of bigoted humor is it is extremely lazy.

I can't really argue with that, because it can indeed be very lazy. I would also argue that it's part of the point, sadly. I find that the spirit of what is meant to be laughed at is often ignorance on some level. While I sometimes find it funny, I won't lie and say that there are times when I think it could be a dangerous message. A "willful ignorance" I'd say could be laughed at. When it comes to how to treat people, some that don't know better, just don't know better. Some, however... do not want to know better. They don't care.

The Big Lebowski is often a gold mine of quotable lines by many. One of my favorites on this subject comes to mind, where I once actually had to explain what was funny about it. The line was spoken by a posturing Big Lebowski himself. The millionaire Jeff Lebowski, not "The Dude" Lebowski:

"I didn't blame anyone for the loss of my legs... some Chinaman took them from me in Korea. But I went out and achieved, anyway!"

The term 'Chinaman' can refer to a native to China, but as many well know, it's also used as an offensive broad stroke term to refer to pretty much anyone from East Asia. Given the context, it's can be presumed that he's more than likely claiming that a Korean soldier is responsible for Lebowski's inability to walk. Whether or not it is ignorance and being stuck in old vernacular or genuine racism, what we are supposed to take from this scene is that The Big Lebowski (the "rich" one) is an asshole. His ignorance (at best, if that is what it is) is something that he doesn't feel the need to correct. His wealth enables him, his clout and narrative for himself as an "achiever" barrs him from being humbled. And because the Dude is our underdog "hero", The Big Lebowski is someone we are supposed to laugh at as opposed to laugh with.


With these sort of jokes or lines, I feel like I can appreciate them as reinforcement of my sensibilities as opposed to attacks against them.



As for the rest, I don't really have much to say about humor like this mentioned in your post though. When it comes to jokes about transpeople, I don't feel like I understand enough to get whatever the intended "gotcha" might be. So can't pass the ball on that given my lack of knowledge about that sort of thing. But I would say a lot of that seems like an example of genuine malice, as opposed to ignorance. Again, I'm not really on the same tree with that. Shows like Family Guy and South Park feel more and more like TV trash as I have gotten older. With other things LGBT related, though... I often find that there can be a lot to unpack depending on the joke in question.

[Regina Minx]

Denis Leary is another that comes to mind, one that I felt could be seen as an Andrew Dice Clay. Odd thing is, I liked Denis Leary's humor and didn't like Andrew Dice Clay at all.  :-\

Everything funny about Denis Leary he stole from Bill Hicks.

[Twisted Crow]

Actually had to look that up. Wow. It's like Amy Schumer stealing jokes, except she steals from... pretty much everyone.  :-\

[Brittlby]

Everything funny about Denis Leary he stole from Bill Hicks.

That's not true! Supposedly he stole a few bits from Louis C.K. as well!

[Twisted Crow]

I still find it annoying that I get slumped in with MGTOW whenever I sometimes go to bat for MRA-related issues. Seriously, these are night and day. And every time these topics come up, I have basically to teach an entire class for a couple of hours (wasting valuable time and energy that could be used discussing the actual problem) in order to play some pointless game of mental gymnastics with my 'usual opposition' (in this case) that can just treat the two as colloquialisms. There are many things that I would say that I am probably ignorant of in life. Ignorance is forgivable and redeemable. As I have said before, it is a state of not knowing. But it's not always innocent ignorance. Sometimes it's just a "willful" ignorance. And I hate saying that because it just sounds stupid, but I can't think of any other polite way to describe it.

To vent more on this and 'talks' like this in general...

I mean, the burden is always on me to explain these differences. If I can't explain the difference, then I have to 'take an L' and the productive conversation that I want doesn't happen. And it's always the same three barriers that I have to get over, as well;

1. Explain the difference to somebody that wants to pretend (for a moment) that grass and water are the exact same thing... or something.

2. Clearly point out their own cognitive dissonance... or something similar, depending on how the 'give-and-take' is going.

3. Accuse them of trying to conflate the argument and make me lose track of whatever the original topic was. Because that is usually what is happening.

Then after all of that, if they aren't too upset at me for turning their own logic in on itself... then we might be able to have a talk about how both sides can gain from one another. Sometimes they rage-quit, other times they actually hear me out. It all depends on how ignorant they are and/or how much of an asshole I want to be after my patience has been stretched with this nonsense for so long.

It's even more aggravating that I get the feeling that some already know "the difference" in these kinds of conversations and just choose to play aloof so they can place the burden on me for their 'advantage'. You see, it's about winning the argument instead of trying to find a solution to the thing we are arguing about. And patience for this foolishness is nearing critical mass, as I normally just want to talk about the actual problem in these situations. But no, first I have to enter someone else's Thunderdome and entertain their little childish "zero-sum" battle first. I've become so annoyed by these "arguing the argument" mental gymnasts that I am beginning to understand why we have people like Dr. Shaym, SomeBlackGuy, Amazing Athiest, etc. in the first place. 

It's because people like me get so frustrated having to jump through a bazillion flaming hoops before even getting to the table to hold the conversation that is actually worth having.  :-\

[Remiel]

Could you please define what MGTOW is?  I've heard the term before, but was curious to hear your take on it.

Also, there's a podcast on NPR that I listen to religiously--it's called "Hidden Brain", and it delves into some pretty interesting psychological and sociological stuff.

Recently, there was an episode that focused on social media and the culture of outrage.  It's called Screaming Into the Void: How outrage is hijacking our lives hijacking our culture, and our minds.  Regardless of political affiliation, I highly HIGHLY recommend that everyone who reads this give it a listen.

[Skynet]

MGTOW are basically misogynistic men who declare their desire to cut off all women from their lives, a la Mwn Going Their Own Way. They believe in broad stereotypes and pseudoscience about women, ie they ‘slutty and only want men for money’ or that they’re inherently promiscuous and constantly committing infidelity by ‘riding the cock carousel.’

In spite of their self-imposed gender segregation their forums are constantly complaining about women and in some cases brigade online communities with lots of wow men members to spread their brand of ‘truth.’

[Twisted Crow]

Thank you, Dallas...   :P

Well, I have my own take on MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) that is a bit less generalistic. In my experiences meeting men that claim to be MGTOW, I have had some rather mixed results, some match the MO Sky describes... others don't at all. Not all MGTOW are necessarily misogynists, for example. It is a bit of an umbrella similar to Feminism. I am working on something at the moment, but I will give a more detailed explanation on this in a bit.

[Twisted Crow]

Thank you, Dallas...   :P

Just teasing here, by the way. Your opinions are always welcome, of course. ;-)

[Skynet]

Well my last post has one too many typos for me to be comfortable with; that's what I get for posting on a smartphone!

I'm generally skeptical of any movement which encourages people to cut off contact with broad swathes of one's social circle (much less half the global population) for the most banal reasons. It's pretty much Cult Brainwashing 101 in terms of isolation tactics.

[Twisted Crow]

^^ This accurately makes the distinction that I was going to make. :-)

Two of the constants surrounding MGTOW are often these: Anti-feminism and isolation from elements of society that they consider harmful to men. MRA can be opposed to certain feminist notions, yet MRA don't push for isolation from society. It is also important to note that anti-feminism does not necessarily equate to misogyny. Though everything else that comes with MGTOW can be misogynist. It really depends on that person's headspace. As Sky said above, a key difference between Men's Rights Activism and MGTOW is that one isolates from society and the other really doesn't. The problem is the blur the comes with MGTOW. For one, there is what can be often found on the internet and there is what can be observed in person.

I have met 6 or so people that have claimed to be MGTOW. And they all seemed to be different sorts of people. The two I will describe (outside of Sky's description) are not the only kinds of MGTOW I have seen, but they seem to be the most common.

I have met the "begrudged man" a few times that simply felt disenfranchised by society. This man can be the sort to claim to be MGTOW. Yet, this is the same sort of man that would still call his mother and wish her a Happy Birthday. He still isolates himself from what he believes is harmful to himself (as a man). In fact, I will admit to share some qualities with this particular "type". Yet, this resentment does not necessarily equate to malice toward women, but rather a dislike for society that (in his eyes) coddles and protects women while telling him to sink or swim. A crude way to summarize it is: It is not fair to him, so he's packing his shit and checking out and "going his own way."

Then again, I have encountered the "Pick Up Artist MGTOW" that tries to employ various seduction techniques, mind games and what have you to "stay in control" of their relationships with women. This one got tired of being used by women and whatnot, so he decided to go to a playbook (or make one) to take advantage of people's psyche. I... stay away from these people when I can, simply because I find their methods to be generally abusive.

So, yeah... some of them are exactly the mold that Wikipedia might paint them. But the main thing with that movement is isolation to protect themselves as men, whereas I don't isolate by choice. I am just not good at dealing with people, sometimes.

[Remiel]

A crude way to summarize it is: It is not fair to him, so he's packing his shit and checking out and "going his own way."

That's pretty much what I understood MGTOW to mean: a man who, for his own reasons, decides to opt out of the dating/relationship game.

What shocks and dismays me is the level of hate and vitriol that is triggered by simply bringing up the term.  The top entry in the Urban Dictionary, for example:

Bitch ass Neckbeards who think they know everything about women even though they've never talked to one. Think they've been "redpilled" but in reality they just gave up on trying to get women and beat it to porn because they look like a baboon's ass cheek . If you disagree with these losers they'll call you a "blue pilled cuck".

MGTOW: I'M UGLY AF AND WATCH PORN 24/7 BUT I WILL BLAME MY LONELINESS ON HOW WAHMEN ARE FUCKING SLUTZ

Or to use another example: incel.  Perhaps I'm naive, but I've always understood the term to mean "involuntarily celibate,"  i.e. someone who, for whatever reasons, wants to have sex but cannot.  By this definition, women can be incels as well as men.  And yet, it seems that word has been co-opted, and now seems to mean the absolute worst kind of human being, someone who must be vilified, silenced, ridiculed, dehumanized, and destroyed at all costs.

Anyway, I apologize, Dallas.  I don't wish to derail your thread.

[Skynet]

That's pretty much what I understood MGTOW to mean: a man who, for his own reasons, decides to opt out of the dating/relationship game.

What shocks and dismays me is the level of hate and vitriol that is triggered by simply bringing up the term.

It's not without good reason. Most of their communities on Reddit got banned for spreading of hate speech, and while not banned /r/mgtow's top-rated posts of all time are full of vitriol and general anger rather than support.

Even otherwise well-meaning people who end up in the communities are confronted with negative reinforcement. The phrase "rope material" is used among incels in the tying up of having sex with women as a man's primary worth and that those who cannot achieve this should just hang themselves. They're angry at traditional gender roles, but reinforce those very roles without an iota of irony. The original phrasing of incel was made by a woman who sought to provide a positive space, but was horrified when misogynists hijacked her own community and became far more widespread and popular.

[Remiel]

Ah, I see.  That makes sense.