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Author Topic: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?  (Read 73029 times)

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Offline Samael

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Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #400 on: September 05, 2011, 02:35:40 AM »
I used to play a Paladin Tank.
Nothing better than joining a heroic and learning that your team consists of a Fury Warrior, a Hunter who refuses to use traps, and sends his pet in first, a DK and a Druid on healing, who is still undergeared.

...God, I hated that Grim Batol run...

Offline Shjade

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #401 on: September 05, 2011, 02:56:29 AM »
Hungering Cold is not good crowd control.  It lasts like 10 seconds, and if you've already engaged a mob, it will break to someone's dots pretty much instantly.  Similarly, I'm about a million more times useful in a fight actually killing things than I am kiting things in circle with chains.  Crowd control which removes my DPS from the fight is just not a good idea.  If giving up 16k+ damage is worth it for a tiny bit of not-actually-CC, I'm going to be curious why the dungeon assembler put me in with four warriors!

And this kind of thinking is why it was so rare for me to see any other DPS using their CC to save people in heroics. ;p

Giving up your epix damage is worth it if it saves your healer from a stray killer dog for the few seconds needed for the tank to pick it up. 16k+ damage < group being alive to finish fight.

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #402 on: September 05, 2011, 03:01:23 AM »
And this kind of thinking is why it was so rare for me to see any other DPS using their CC to save people in heroics. ;p

Giving up your epix damage is worth it if it saves your healer from a stray killer dog for the few seconds needed for the tank to pick it up. 16k+ damage < group being alive to finish fight.

Did you not read the entire post or what?

I'm playing a death knight.  I don't have to give up my damage to pull shit off the healer.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 03:06:28 AM by meikle »

Offline AllieCat

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #403 on: September 05, 2011, 03:08:49 AM »
Grim Batol?

Skinner's Paradise.. I love when I'm the only skinner in there.

Let's see, what have I been doing for the last few days..

I've been continuing to gear up, it's amazing how few people do Wintergrasp (the defender's exploit of killing cannons at the tower to rank up quickly makes it quick, especially when tbere's only 2-3 a side), and it pays more to win there then it does to lose in Tol Barad (I hate HATE HATE HATE HATE Tol Barad, especially as an attacker) So between that and doing a lot of PUG's I've kitted myself up pretty nice, three Justice Point gears.. then.

(insert emergency brake being pulled sound here)

I've hit a wall. I'm the last active member of my guild, and there's a lot of stuff in the bank, to explain. To get shoulders and/or helm, you need a drop that only comes from 10 man raids. The only PUG groups on Moonie that I see advertising for Raids require you to already have done it before (to show the acheivements to get an invite, etcetera). So I feel like I'm being locked out (and I've got pretty good gear (wow-heroes puts my gearscore at 4550)..

So to pass the time (and to rebuild my depleted account), I've been singling BC Heroics and WOTLK 5 Mans (as an arms warrior, it'd probably take more time to do heroic WOTLK then it's worth) and to get those achievement points. I even went and got my Jenkins title :)

But I gotta figure out what to do. If I take Lai out of the guild, I have other alts in it, but I can never get Lai back in (since I'm the only active member, I can't invite myself :P).. and now that I've done one of the Troll heroics, I'm running out of new things to do and that worries me. I don't want to drift away again.. I wanna see the new and exciting stuff)

Oh, and talking about the PUG from hell, on our Trollheroic today,, we have two people who just spend the whole run sniping at each other (one is used to a system where everyone rolls need on Crystals and Orbs while the rest of us roll Needs only on Orbs since they're profession specific). So one person accuses the needer of ninjaing a Crystak, and they spend the next twenty minutes calling each other every name under the sun. There are multiple attempts to votekick each other out of the group (all of which fail), and as we continue to go on through the bosses, it's like every bad word ever is being exchanged. Finally, after beating Zanzil, I tell both of them to grow up, that we could have resolved this by doing /rolls against what he had rolled for need on the crystal 45 minutes ago, and if the two of them didn't stop it immediately, *I* was going to leave and leave them hanging one boss away.

I think even though I'm not yet qualified for the Real Life Achievement "The Mom Voice", I was able to fake it enough that they stopped filling the party window with insults, and we managed to finish Zul'Gurub without a wipe on Jindo :)

But even after we finished, I felt like I needed a multiple hour break just to get the irritation I had over the two boys.

I wish I had been the healer instead of DPS (my 75 Pally is a healer).. then I just smile and say "I can survive for a bit with out you, so remember to stay on the good side of the healer, they decide who lives and who dies... *evilgrins*"

They get the point. :)

And one more thing, quick. God bless Tanks. I couldn't do it. TOo much panic for me "Oh god oh god h god I'm losing aggro, no you get back here.. STOP CHASING MY HEALER.. no you can't wander off and attack that DPS... NO GET BACK HERE THE HEALER IS NOT YOUR CHEW TOY.. OK WHO HIT THE SHEEP.. AGGHHH! WHO PULLED THAT SECOND GROUP.  THERE'S TOO MANY HEAL ME HEAL ME HEAL ME ..."

When my guild was active I made it clear over and over again "LAI NO TANK!"

Offline Question Mark

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #404 on: September 05, 2011, 03:11:11 AM »
Long ass topic, will be fun to read during a boring lecture.

I only browsed the last page, but here's my 2cents on the topic.

If you play Alliance (which I do!  FOR THE ALLIANCE!), then Blizzard has a Horde bias.  If you play the Horde, then Blizzard has an Alliance bias.

Yes, there are some things that Alliance and Horde are uneven on.  Horde gained more territory in Cataclysm, their attacks were more successful. Their quest chains are more action focused.  BIG emphasis on honor and glory in combat, but also strong emphasis on the unjust and immoral lengths some Horde go to in the name of Glory (Forsaken zones, Stonetalon much?).

Alliance is mostly recovery and recuperation.  We're drawing the lines in the sand, holding the Horde at bay, soldifying our holdings.  This makes for a more introspective, silent suffering sensation (NElf zones, Worgen, SBarrens).  And also lots of terrible pop culture ripoffs (I'm looking at you Westfall and Redridge).  We also kick ass in Swamp of Sorrows, but most argue that no one gives a fuck about Stonard, being so way behind enemy lines.

It's easy to see bias one way or another, but I think - if anything - Blizz is biased against the Horde.  They're setting them up to be the Horde of old, all violence and aggression, raping and pillaging because its what they do.  Horde instigated more than the Alliance in Cata, and the Horde condoned the Forsaken's....  slaughter.  And Garrosh.  Garrosh.

Maybe Blizz is setting up Horde = Strength, Alliance = Survival.  But I don't see any bias any way.  The situation is open to assessment, not forced.  Thus, no bias.




On a side note, Protadins for the win!  My main's a protadin, the One Spec Wonder.  I love the class, the lore, the playstyle.  I like how we're the tankiest of the tanks.  And what I mean by that is, we're literal battle tanks.  CDs out the wazoo, tons of mitigation.  We're focused on survival, whereas warriors have a more malleable toolkit, DKs are more offensive tanks, and druids are avoidance based.  Samael, I hear ya on the stupid PuGs.  They suck.  But hell, people are stupid as a rule.  I just accept it.

BTW, Grim Batol is my favorite 5man (besides ZA).


Also, I don't think CC is anywhere near as important as it was 8 months ago.  I blow through most heroics and Zandalaris with minimal CC (mainly just Medicine Men, the occasional healer, or some special circumstance like a newbie healer).  When I'm on a DPS, though, it's possible that I may get a newbie tank AND a newbie healer.  So, just in case, I ALWAYS lay down a freezing trap in heroics.  Every bit of CC helps, especially now that Blizz has noobified-- er, I mean, "adjusted it for better quality of life by removing CC aggro."

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #405 on: September 05, 2011, 03:15:01 AM »
Quote
And one more thing, quick. God bless Tanks. I couldn't do it. TOo much panic for me "Oh god oh god h god I'm losing aggro, no you get back here.. STOP CHASING MY HEALER.. no you can't wander off and attack that DPS... NO GET BACK HERE THE HEALER IS NOT YOUR CHEW TOY.. OK WHO HIT THE SHEEP.. AGGHHH! WHO PULLED THAT SECOND GROUP.  THERE'S TOO MANY HEAL ME HEAL ME HEAL ME ..."

It's not quite so bad in practice. :)  The extra responsibility makes it more intense but also more rewarding (in my experience, anyway.)  I played a prot warrior through all of vanilla, and a prot paladin from Burning Crusade through WotLK -- I guess all of that stuff about constantly watching for aggro and checking on the healer and watching for adds is just second nature to me now, because I do it regardless of which character I'm playing. :p

Offline AllieCat

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #406 on: September 05, 2011, 03:21:53 AM »
I think the upcoming changes (5x threat gen for tank instead of 3) will make tanking a lot easier.. but for me it was pretty much like I said.. trying to maintain my rotation, then all of a sudden I see someone else's name light up red, and you start panicking, I have to resist the urge to stop attacking and go grab it (rather then letting the DPS/Healer bring it back to me), because once you lose that rythum, you DON'T get it back, and then you start panicking and then bad things happen.

Offline Question Mark

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #407 on: September 05, 2011, 03:28:23 AM »
Tanking has always come naturally to me.  I healed as a pally up to L40, but then it just...  felt like whack-a-mole.  I tried out tanking (can't even remember why) and never went back.  Leading a group feels right.  Do this, do that, I'll take care of this.  And it all falls into place.  Tanks, I think, are the keystone of any group.  They determine when a pull starts, how it progresses, and how the group handles any SNAFUs.  It comes naturally to me, and that makes me pretty proud.  But it is an intense role.  I usually only do it for one or two dungeons in a row, then call it quits.  Long raids make me feel exhausted.

Tanking is not for everyone.  But that's cool, because healing sure as hell ain't for everyone (esp. me).

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #408 on: September 05, 2011, 03:30:03 AM »
I want every dungeon to be like tanking 45 minute Stratholme.  Always.  Forever.

Nothing in the game will ever live up to trying to do that in pre-raid gear.  When we finally pulled it off (I was in high school back then and played with a regular group of friends) it was awesomely rewarding.  Especially since we had a paladin healer (do people remember how ridiculous paladins used to be?)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 03:31:20 AM by meikle »

Offline AllieCat

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #409 on: September 05, 2011, 03:33:47 AM »
Bubbledins! :)

Offline Black Howling

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Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #410 on: September 05, 2011, 07:33:58 AM »
When I did play WoW, I could only get into the tank role. I played good Heals, and had a pretty high level priest; but my main was always my Prot Warrior. Never did like plain old DPS for some reason. I tried it with a rogue and hunter, but it just wasn't any fun. Though Meikle is right, you get use to the aggro watching and crap after a while.

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #411 on: September 05, 2011, 02:00:22 PM »
god fing d.... I had this big long post typed out and hit a button on my mouse which then made my browser go back a page and I lost my entire post......

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #412 on: September 05, 2011, 02:10:07 PM »
Okay lets try this again.

Point One the CC in heroics. I for one feel that you need to keep using the cc even if you are geared or mostly geared group. This is because if you don't most people tend to get big egos and then when it comes time when oyu need the CC they say of we don't need it and wind up causing problems. IT is the mind set of I am so geared I don't need it that lead to Wraith Baby Syndrome. News Flash when it comes to the raids and the new 5 man content that will be dropping next patch you will require CC as you do/did for the troll heroics. So why not just keep in practice and make sure that other people you are pugging in know how it is properly done so that way when they get into a group with newer 85's they can simply show them how it is done rather then being the next line of snobbish elitist assholes. I know I for one make the groups I am tanking cc when we have it on most pulls because it makes everyone's life easier and generally it takes less time just to CC and kill the trash then it does to argue over whether or not it is needed. There shouldn't be any hunting for your CC guys it should already be on your tool bars.

Now unto my second thing, The Tanks. While I play a Prot Pally I feel we are more the mitigation tanks now were as the Druid are the Damage dealers, the warriors, are the single target debuff tanks, and the DK are the survival tanks since a properly geared and skilled DK can have higher self heals then a Pally without the CD on WG and they can survive longer. Hell even blizzard is saying that the DK's don't need much of a change to their tanking and may be modeling the other tanks after the DK...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #413 on: September 05, 2011, 02:10:57 PM »
god fing d.... I had this big long post typed out and hit a button on my mouse which then made my browser go back a page and I lost my entire post......

i HAET HAET HAET when that happens...

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #414 on: September 05, 2011, 02:45:03 PM »
So why not just keep in practice and make sure that other people you are pugging in know how it is properly done so that way when they get into a group with newer 85's they can simply show them how it is done rather then being the next line of snobbish elitist assholes. I know I for one make the groups I am tanking cc when we have it on most pulls because it makes everyone's life easier and generally it takes less time just to CC and kill the trash then it does to argue over whether or not it is needed.

Calling people who don't play with a crutch they don't need 'snobby elitist assholes' is kind of over the top, don't you think?

I mean, maybe it's safer (it's always going to be safer), but when you've got a party who are all geared beyond the dungeon (far beyond it, in the case of 359s or even 372s at this point), being extra-careful just makes the game slow and boring.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:50:15 PM by meikle »

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #415 on: September 05, 2011, 02:47:02 PM »
CC is not a crutch though it is a mechanic that was intended to be used in the dungeons.

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #416 on: September 05, 2011, 02:52:41 PM »
CC is not a crutch though it is a mechanic that was intended to be used in the dungeons.

When it ceases to be necessary (or even helpful, as in the case of people in 372 gear running through heroics), it is just a crutch.

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #417 on: September 05, 2011, 02:58:13 PM »
If you have an entire group of 372 and it is a group that runs together all the time I can see that but if you have even one person you pugged in that is not in epics then it is not a crutch it is simply showing someone that may not have the same game experience as you how to properly run the dungeon. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you need to. Now I know that works both ways and it could be argued that just cause you can CC doesn't mean you should. The point is that when it comes time to raid you will be using CC when the new % mans drop unless you are running with a guild group in high end raid gear you will have to CC. Really I don't see a reason not to when using the DF simply because it makes things run nice and smooth. 9 times out of 10 when people listen and just CC with out argue the dungeon goes by nice smooth and fast with little problem. I would rather have used the CC and not have needed it then not have used it and found out that we needed it and the fight either dragged on for 5 minutes or most/all of the party died.

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #418 on: September 05, 2011, 03:02:26 PM »
It is a valid stance, I guess!  I don't agree that it's my job to go out of my way to teach strangers how to play the game, but I don't think I've ever given someone a hard time about being new or having to modify our tactics to suit someone who wasn't quite as geared or whatever.  On the other hand, if 4/5ths of the group are geared & capable enough to handle the dungeon regardless of what the fifth member does, I'd rather just carry them through than draw the dungeon out.

But, and here's the distinction, I didn't call anyone an asshole for choosing to use CC. :p

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #419 on: September 05, 2011, 03:07:03 PM »
There are exceptions to every statement, and I am are there are people out there that are well geared and that don't like to cc that are not Assholes or elitist. That said the majority of them are elitist snobbish assholes. I know I for one back when I was raiding regularly and was ranked in the top 20 on the server I am was one of those people. Most of the guild I was in became those people we hated most. We began to feel because we were progressing as well as we were and had become as geared as we were. We were better then most...I still do it from time to time but I try to make sure I check myself and that I go back and apologize to those people when I can if I get into that mood or line. Mainly because it is no fun to play with those people because god forbid you need ot take a holiday or a break and then come back because they will have moved on and oyu will no longer be as good as them.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #420 on: September 05, 2011, 03:22:18 PM »
CC is a good tactic. It makes it easier for folks to handle things. Just because you can tank/smack down 5 to 8 mobs at once doesn't mean everyone else can. Not to mention it's a GOOD thing if you're having a bad night. I had one group where the tank and one of the DPSes dropped for 90 seconds in mid fight. That left me, Ret Pali, a druid healer and mage to work the crowd. I did my CC, the druid got off an entangle and the mage polyed.. Then I ret-tanked one mob at a time while the Healer and Mage worked to help me get things down. By the time the other two got back I was rezzing the mage and the druid was off getting something (and this is a quote) 'Something strike me blind' strong'.

Accidents happen and CC is a good tool to help keep Mr. Murphy from sucking the marrow out of your toon's bones. :D

Not to mention it's good practice for when you do the new raids. I had a lot of guys say 'I forgot I could CC'.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #421 on: September 06, 2011, 01:33:29 AM »
I.

Hate.

PuGs.

That is all.