Kitten Advice Needed

[olive]

Hello,

I have searched the web and I am getting a ton of conflicting information. If anyone has experience with kittens, I have a few questions about real food. I'm scared to death that I'll starve my kittens from lack of knowledge. I have raised kittens that were separated from their mothers too early, from 4 or 5 weeks old. For both of them, I used KMR mixed with a little wet food until they could eat solid food.

These kittens are not orphans and are not going anywhere anytime soon and neither is the mother. They are five weeks old and show absolutely no interest in eating real food. I have tried to give them dry food mixed with water to make a mushy gruel. Nothing. I gave them some soft high quality wet food made from chicken. Nothing.

Everything I have read says that they can start eating at five weeks but do they have to start eating by then? The mother is still happy to nurse them and they are happy and healthy, so far. I just don't want to unwittingly deprive them of any vital nutrition they need and stunt their growth or make them sick.

(I know...I'm insane. I wasn't this nuts with my own children. Now I'm like Shirley McClain in "Terms of Endearment" complete with getting up in the middle of the night to make sure they were still breathing, when they were first born.) 

So:

1. When do I put solid food out for them?
2. What kind of food do I use? Wet? Dry? Mixed with water? Mixed with KMR?
3. What else do I need to know regarding solid food and weaning that I don't know that I don't know?

Thanks!

olive

[olive]

Agador-Spartacus and Waffles

[Trieste]

I waaaaant the tabby! *grabbyhands*

My assumption would be that if you offer them mooshy kitten food or wet food, they will nurse until they are not getting what they need from mama any more and then they will explore the alternate foods set out for them. We brought Curie home around 6-8 weeks and she was okay with kibble by then. I haven't ever heard of mama refusing to wean them when it's time - aren't most mamas more than happy to not have nipple-suckers any longer than they have to? xD

I've never raised kittens from birth, so I don't know for sure, but I would be surprised if you have to do anything other than offer them kitten food.

[CharlieSariel]

I concur with Trieste here, Olive.

Kittens act much like wild creatures (super adorable wild creatures to be sure...), and they will go "hunting" when they need something that they're not getting.  Trust them to know their own bodily needs.  Put out dishes of kitten food at selected feeding times, and when they need it, they will go to it.

And for the record... those two are so cute as to nearly be illegal.  Velcro-kitties for the win!  XD

[olive]

So it is be okay to just set out dry kitten food and when they want it they will eat it, otherwise, no need to worry if they are still nursing well, is what I am hearing you both say. I keep dry food out for the mother, at all times, in the room.

She's still very protective of them and she won't leave them for longer than a minute or two. I leave the bedroom door cracked so she can push it open if she needs a break but it's too heavy for them to open on their own. They have their own room.

Thank you both. I just worry because I want to make sure they get the best start possible. Most of the good articles on feeding kittens assume they are either orphaned or that they need to be weaned by a particular time to go to new homes. The kittens will be with mom and their "aunt and uncles" for a while....like forever, probably.

And Trieste the grey one has the classic tabby "M" marking on her forehead. It's hard to see in the picture though.  :-)

[Trieste]

I love tabbies. <3

Do you have a family vet or a local shelter/rescue you can call for advice?

[Elina]

So it is be okay to just set out dry kitten food and when they want it they will eat it, otherwise, no need to worry if they are still nursing well, is what I am hearing you both say.

My understanding of dry food is that it is too hard for them to eat and digest so young.  I think that a couple of pieces moistened would be better.  You don't have to leave out much, just enough to see when they finally nibble, so it shouldn't be too wasteful.

[Beguile's Mistress]

*nods*      It's normal for them to nurse until the mother's milk thins and/or runs out.  As they begin to wean they'll look for food, exploring the adult's food if that's all that's available so putting kitten food near the nesting place and near the adult food will give them an alternate sources.  They might nibble AND nurse for a bit but eventually they'll move or be moved on from nursing to food.

I love those little babies. :-)

[olive]

I love tabbies. <3
Do you have a family vet or a local shelter/rescue you can call for advice?

No not really but I'm going to take them all in for a check up when I start working, hopefully in the next week or so. I call the little grey one 'Trieste's Baby' as a nickname.

*nods*      It's normal for them to nurse until the mother's milk thins and/or runs out.  As they begin to wean they'll look for food, exploring the adult's food if that's all that's available so putting kitten food near the nesting place and near the adult food will give them an alternate sources.  They might nibble AND nurse for a bit but eventually they'll move or be moved on from nursing to food.

I love those little babies. :-)

I love them too!  They are in their own room with her and she access to her own food and water. Today they were drinking a little of the water, imitating her, but still not interested in eating. She's still nursing them on demand, so I'll keep putting out the food and see what happens. They have their own little bowl they can reach.

Thanks both of you!

[Oniya]

With wild felines, the mother eventually starts chasing them off from the teat, or standing up and walking away from them.  Dogs do the same thing.

[olive]

These little fellas are tame, the parents are too but I imagine she'll do the same thing when she's ready for them to be weaned? I have been keeping track and she's still nursing them pretty frequently and is still very protective of them.

I'll keep an eye out for that, though. Right now they seem fat and sassy. I feel a bit more at ease since reading the suggestions here.

[Oniya]

These little fellas are tame, the parents are too but I imagine she'll do the same thing when she's ready for them to be weaned? I have been keeping track and she's still nursing them pretty frequently and is still very protective of them.

:-)  I realize that.  Just wanted to let you know that they do have an instinct for that sort of thing.

[olive]

That's what I thought. Thanks so much! You all have helped calm my fears a lot.  :-)

[Saerrael]

Cats are very self-sufficient (and half-tame). Don't worry too much about it, Olive. Just offer them additional food next to the nursing. They should switch to food between 5 and 8 weeks, but it's not unheard of that they keep nursing at 10 weeks, too. As long as the mother cat has no problem with kittens drinking from her, all is fine.

[Kuroneko]

I agree with Saerra.  They'll self wean when they're ready, and be healthier and more adjusted for it. 

[Missy]

When I was a kid, but I can hardly remember.

We had to consult a vet when one of our cats was away (I think at the vet, but it was a looong time ago so it's hard to remember)

I want to say he gave us some kind of formula, but to be honest all I can remember for certain is that we bottle fed them for a while. They were probably a bit younger than that though.

Also, as a person with a fair bit of experience with cat's (I know it doesn't look that way, it was a long time ago okay and we only did it once) Having had tons of cats throughout my childhood momcats know when to stop feeding the babies, like Oniya said they just get up and walk away when it's time.

[olive]

Thanks Saerra, Kuroneko, and MCsc.

Today they actually had chicken that was cooked in the slow cooker. I cut it up very finely, with scissors and put it on a paper plate for the mama. Waffles (the fat cream colored one) surprised me by walking over and sitting next to mom and actually eating it.

I have been leaving dry food out all along, so I suspect they have been nibbling at that as BeMi suggested they might. The little grey one (Agador) didn't want anything to do with eating, though. She was too busy playing. She's a lot smaller than he is, I suspect she is the "runt" of the litter. So I was thinking she just isn't ready yet. Still it was encouraging to see one of them eat.

The thing is, as much as I hate to admit it, I cannot keep them both. My oldest daughter has found a home for Waffles. Really, just typing that makes me get tears in my eyes, because I love them both. She told me the people that want him would like him to come home in a couple of weeks if possible, so it is good that he is starting to eat. I would never let him go before he was weaned though, and I was firm with my daughter about that point.  I suggested they take the mean ol mama cat instead.  ::)   (You may or may not know that she attacked me on Christmas day, to the point of leaving scars.)

Anyway, thanks for the advice. So far one seems to be trying out real food, the other is still uninterested.  :-)

[olive]

A little update:

I made some boiled chicken breast, shredded it finely, and gave it to the mother. Waffles took right to it. He eats it anytime I offer it. Agador still wants nothing to do with solid fun and to hammer that point home, she climbed into the momma's dry food bowl and started to squat. I caught her just in time, but she seems to think dry food is kitty litter. Other than that, she's actually a bit smarter and more outgoing than he is.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Food critic?

[olive]

Yeah, she REALLY doesn't like that brand. *giggles*

[LilFaerieAimee]

Hi Olive!  I apologize if my advice is a little late in coming.  I've had to wean several kittens during my life and the best tactic that always seems to work is to mix dry food with whole cow milk.  All of my cats I tried to give KMR to hated it.  The main important thing is to give a few moments for the dry food to get mushy (like leaving cereal too long.)  That's the weaning start point.  From there lessen the time the milk sits, then lessen the milk.  The big point is that they need fatty, fatty food. It helps them grow stronger.

As for adoption assistance.  I don't know where you live, but in many cities there is a local BARC.  Google BARC and your city, and I am sure they will have one.  They take the animal for free, you just have to bring your license.  It's 100% no kill and they fix and give all proper shots and even chip the animal upon adoption.  You can even keep track of your stray online. to make sure everything is going smooth.

[olive]

Thanks so much LilFaerieAimee! That's really good information.

I wanted to give a little update. I did mix some kitten chow with the KMR for a while but it's very expensive and the momma cat wanted to gobble it up. Apparently it is tasty too! Anyway, for the last few days, I simply have been leaving high quality kitten chow out for them and they are eating regularly and nursing less frequently. They seem to be thriving so I think they are well on their way to being weaned. The momma is spending less time with them and they are roaming the house freely when I am home.

I really appreciate all the good advice and assurance I received from you folks. Thanks again!  :-)

This is their 7 week picture, taken today. They are so active now, the only time I can catch them in one spot together is when they are sleeping. They love each other so, too.

[Trieste]

*makes such grabbyhands at the lovelies*

[olive]

Trieste, you would love Agador. She's got spots on her body, like her mother, instead of stripes. Her legs are striped but the rest of her is more of a cheetah pattern. Let me know when I can ship her to you!  :-) 

Actually, I cannot part with them until I find good homes, if ever. I try to imagine giving them to strangers and all I can think about is what kind of lives they will have and all the "what ifs." I've always considered getting a pet the same as making a promise. They are a life-time commitment, I think. I need to know they will have good lives with people that will love them forever and then I'd be willing to let them go. If I keep them and my daughter eventually comes for her two, that will leave me with five. I have lived with up to four, for several years. Still, it would be nice to see them go to homes where they didn't have to share the attention so much.

Edit:
By the way, I would consider yours a good home...*hint hint*  XD

[Trieste]

I already love Agador! Waffles is a sweetie, but I have a soft spot for the little grey ball of fluff. :) My husband would leave me, though. >.>

[LilFaerieAimee]

My final say?  Keep them.  They not only found a place in your home but your heart as well.  If by now you havent found an owner, truth is you might not, and you have obviously been wonderful with them, KEEP THEM!!  I am so being the little thing on your shoulder.  They're your babies, and you love them, you've named them even. 

My next tip- get a scratching post soon.  The two cats I own once lived with a good friend of mine and they scratched EVERYTHING he owns.  I took them in when I moved apartments and the first thing I did before moving furniture was to move in a scratcher.  Now they tear a scratcher to hell and back, and I have pristine wood furniture!

[olive]

~grins~

Thanks LilFaerieAimee.

If I needed any encouragement to keep them you sure gave it to me, but as you said, I already adore them. On the other hand, I don't know if I mentioned I have three cats of my own and I'm babysitting two others for my oldest daughter as she house-hunts. If she'll come get those two, I'd feel better about keeping the little ones. I know they'll be well loved here but I worry there's only so much time and attention to spread around and my house is not the largest, either. As much as I would hate to see them go, if a suitable owner shows up, it would be selfish of me to hang on to them. "Suitable" being the key word, though. They would have to pass a rigorous application process to get the the olive-seal of quality.

I actually have an adult cat that was left in a pet store by her owners when they moved. She had already been spade and had all her shots but she just couldn't compete with all the cute little kittens for sale, so she sat in a small cage for nearly 7 months before someone (me) took her home. Although there are worse things that can happen, it still reminds me that even those that have taken an animal in initially, often abandon it if it no longer suits their needs or lifestyle. I want them to go to people like me--people that would take their cats to a tent under a bridge if their life happened to bottom out, rather than see them destroyed or in placed in questionable homes.

[LilFaerieAimee]

You and I are two peas in a pod, Ms. Olive.  I have two cats of my own both adopted less than three months after the other.  They actually belonged to a good friend of mine and his roommate who thought it was a good idea having pets.  The second one is the older and we adopted him as a playmate for the first.  It was a total Lilo and Stitch moment when we adopted him- we were at the vet looking for a rough house ready playmate and the nurses were trying to pawn this puffball of a white kitten on us.  We heard this massive crash and there was this giant orange tabby tom sitting there with this, "No not me, man." look on his face and this scattering of kennels.  We wanted him, and the vet said, "No you don't.  He's been returned three times already, he's too feral to be kept and he'll be put to sleep if returned one more time."  We took him anyway and he's been my best friend since then.

From a daughter's stand point, I also wanted to thank you.  I recently lost my job and moved home with my mom.  We have three cats at home (one has a dormant strain of feline leukemia) and now I added my own.  It was a tough move, and I couldnt bare giving them up.

[olive]

Awww, I loved your story about your orange tabby. God love him, he had to trash the place to get your attention, is all. *grins*
I love to hear stories like that. People find the best friends in the most unusual places or circumstances. Thanks for sharing your fella's story with me.

And yes, my daughter tried to not bring them the 350 miles drive up here, knowing I already had 3 of my own, but when the folks she had left them with neglected them to the point of letting them be eaten up with fleas (without letting her know there was an issue), she had no choice. Her male long haired cat--Socks--looked like one of those shaved cats with the lion's mane. He was pitiful because he had an allergy to the flea bites. He didn't even look like a cat. He's all fat and sassy again, though.

That's Socks on the right, next to one of my male cats: "Little Guy"

[Beguile's Mistress]

They look so cute sitting there touching tails. :-)

[olive]

 :D Thanks! And don't they look hungry? Poor little skinny cats....

[LilFaerieAimee]

I feel so sorry for your daughter!  That must have been so heart breaking.  I am glad you, just like my mom, are so welcoming and allowed them home.  Yea my orange is my buddy.  When we brought him home, the two guys went to studying, and left me trying to chase after the two cats who were warring with one another.  Anyone that tried to pick him up ended getting the same treatment as if they stuck their arms in a disposal.  I pass out on the couch, wake up with this heavy sudden punch to the chest and there is this massive orange animal.  He looked down at me, makes one complete circle and passes out.  True love right there.

So since you did it... here are my kids:

         

[Tachi]

One of my cats we got as a kitten of 2 weeks. His mother had died and we bottle fed him. When it was time to wean him we put out tuna in oil. Tuna in water doesn't work, they want the oil and that gets them wanting wet food after a while. Then go from wet food to dry food.

Edits with more info:

Wean kittens at 4-5 weeks.
Tuna in oil to wet food to dry food takes about a week. Be sure to give them milk (bottle) along with the oil if you think they aren't eating enough. After getting them on wet food they're good with water. If they don't take to water then start mixing tuna oil with water until it's just water.

[Vorcen]

Confession time. I own 5 cats. Used to be 6 until my elderly Jenny passed on. Which I'm fine with, she was -really- old, 20 in cat years give or take I believe. Either way, four of my cats are all sisters and we rescued them from a barn. Their mother was a feral who'd been hit by a car and we quickly realised something was going to have to be done to save the litter, so we spoke to the RSPCA about getting some traps in order to catch the little things.. they were five to six inches big but still little horrors. And thus after two days we ended up with a catch with, two identical tabbys (we'd presumed there was only one), a black and white cat and an English blue. After feeding them ourselves for several monthes, names finally became apparent.

Tabby number 1 with a skin complaint - Toffee, she's sweet, thus Toffee. She has an amusing habbit of standing on her hind legs like a meerkat.
Tabby number 2 - Fudge. Foisty fudge, she's the bully girl. :)
Black and white cat - Onion, on account of the fact she didn't stop eating and ended up as round as one.
English blue - Originally it was going to be Sage to go with Onion, however, she kept trying to escape as a kitten and thus we decided, 'Mack' would be a good name. Mack being the person from the great escape whom kept trying to go over the fence.
Existing cat, a tortoise shell - Jenny or Jennifer. She was an old girl who was quite put out to be sharing a house with whippersnappers. Amusingly they all thought she was there mum. I firmly believe she hated this but she could still be seen with a kitten sleeping on her every now and again.

We thought that was going to be the last of our cats. However.. after a few monthes a small black and white kitten turned up, unannounced, and started eating our cat food. Thinking he was someone elses cat, we kept putting him back outside. Each morning he was waiting at the backdoor to be let in, shivering. Eventually our resolve broke and we adopted him as well. He grew and grew and grew. I'm pretty sure he's more closely related to a panda bear than a cat, but because he's our only male his name is Boyo. He is fat, playful and sassy. Currently me and him are in contest for the Alpha male position. He likes to ambush my shoes as I walk out of a room. I like to wrap him in a towel and treat him like a baby as he scowls at me. I'd say I'm winning this competition so far.

[TheGlyphstone]

I already love Agador! Waffles is a sweetie, but I have a soft spot for the little grey ball of fluff. :) My husband would leave me, though. >.>

Who would be more upset, your husband or your rats? ;D

[Trieste]

The rats don't care so long as the cats keep their paws away from the cage (and they aggressively enforce that rule when one of the cats tries to put a paw in there)... so probably the husband. He seems to have resigned himself to crazy animal house-ness, though.

[TheGlyphstone]

Ah. Didn't realize you already had a mixed-species pet collection.

[Trieste]

8 rats, 3 cats, 2 gerbils, and one Beast. ;D

[Autumn Sativus]

One of my cats we got as a kitten of 2 weeks. His mother had died and we bottle fed him. When it was time to wean him we put out tuna in oil. Tuna in water doesn't work, they want the oil and that gets them wanting wet food after a while. Then go from wet food to dry food.

Edits with more info:

Wean kittens at 4-5 weeks.
Tuna in oil to wet food to dry food takes about a week. Be sure to give them milk (bottle) along with the oil if you think they aren't eating enough. After getting them on wet food they're good with water. If they don't take to water then start mixing tuna oil with water until it's just water.

Be extra careful with this. Some tuna in oil is plainly labelled to include vegetables. Onions are extremely toxic for cats and you've got to be extra careful the tuna has nothing onion related in it (most do, I can only give my cats tuna in water as a result).

[olive]

Tachi, thanks so much for the advice, and Saffy for the warning. I think they'll be okay, now. They are nibbling at the cat chow along side momma cat.

Vorcen, I appreciate and I enjoyed the confession. Wow, five cats...I'm happy to know that I'm not the only one who just cannot say no to the little fellas. It's cool how you picked their names or rather their names picked them.

And Glyph, I haven't given up hope that Agador might live happily ever after with Trieste. I mean, if I can have 7 and Vorcen can have 5, surely one more little beast won't hurt much, right? *giggles*

[Beguile's Mistress]

If she dyed them all blue he'd never know unless they were all in bed with him at the same time. :D

[olive]

Oh wow, that's the best idea....just keep him confused and have all the kitties she wants. *nodsnodsnods*

[TheGlyphstone]

Oh wow, that's the best idea....just keep him confused and have all the kitties she wants. *nodsnodsnods*

Unless the rats tattle. I wouldn't put it past those critters to start spelling messages with their feed pellets.

[Trieste]

What would happen would be that one of them would start to spell out one message, another one would come along and start to spell out another message ("Treats plz!") and then a third or fourth one would come along and start picking up the pellets and squirreling them away. Someone else would find the squirrel-spot and steal food from that spot to hide it in a completely different spot. Then it would be rat-war...

To be fair, though, the one laid back rat, Korben, would probably watch all of it from the comfort of one of the hammocks, too comfortable to be bothered.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Dysfunctional rat family. *nods*

[Vorcen]

Tachi, thanks so much for the advice, and Saffy for the warning. I think they'll be okay, now. They are nibbling at the cat chow along side momma cat.

Vorcen, I appreciate and I enjoyed the confession. Wow, five cats...I'm happy to know that I'm not the only one who just cannot say no to the little fellas. It's cool how you picked their names or rather their names picked them.

And Glyph, I haven't given up hope that Agador might live happily ever after with Trieste. I mean, if I can have 7 and Vorcen can have 5, surely one more little beast won't hurt much, right? *giggles*

We thought about putting them into the cat home when they grew up. But.. they're so fat and sassy. I just ban them from my room and provide food.

[olive]

We thought about putting them into the cat home when they grew up. But.. they're so fat and sassy. I just ban them from my room and provide food.

Is the cat home like the old folk's home?  :-)  I think it's great that you are keeping them. I banned mine from my youngest daughter's room too. She needs one spot in the house not covered in cat hair and catnip toys. Of course that is the one room they think the must get in to. Cats don't like boundaries, I've noticed.

[Zipporah]

I don't have any advice, but those kits are so. incredibly. cute. 

[Vorcen]

Nope. Cat home for unwanted cats. RSPCA ran, essentially people who want cats go and choose. After being told the average stay is 9 monthes. We weren't keen. Now they're all sassy and lovely.

And yes, if they can get into a banned room, they will try. I even hilariously found one trapped in my room, she was asleep on the bed after I'd come in from a full day of education, must have snuck in, in the brief period I left my door ajar when brushing my teeth that morning. Suffice to say, I allowed her to stay that night as something to cuddle. But the next morning rules resumed.

[gsptGoddess]

Agador-Spartacus and Waffles

So, the naming of these two.... How'd that happen? :P

[TheGlyphstone]

Should have just named both of them Spartacus.

[Serephino]

No, cats don't like boundaries.  I keep them out of my bedroom so they don't get lost in there and shed everywhere.  If I'm not careful they'll sneak in and dart under the bed where they know I can't get them out.  Some days I hate smart animals....

I did have 5, but I couldn't handle keeping up with the boxes, so it's down to 3.  We got them all pretty young.  My tortoiseshell Rista we got at about 4 weeks.  My vet said if they have teeth they can eat solid food, but to start out with soft stuff.  I gave them canned at first, then started mixing dry with canned.  Eventually I lessened the amount of canned until it was all dry.  Rista is fat and happy so I guess it worked. 

The other two were 7 weeks when we got them.  The only problem I had with them is I'd put kitten food out for them, and adult food out for Rista.  The kittens decided they didn't want the kitten food, they wanted the adult food.  I was a little worried they wouldn't get enough nutrition, but they seem fine.  Oliver is huge, and I don't mean fat. 

[olive]

I don't have any advice, but those kits are so. incredibly. cute. 

Thanks! They were 9 weeks old last Thursday but they are too fast and I'm too busy to take a picture. I'm going to try to catch them long enough for their 10 week old picture, this week.

So, the naming of these two.... How'd that happen? :P

My little olive named them. Waffles, I have no idea why? Agador-Spartacus was from the movie "The Bird Cage" with Nathan Lane and Robin Williams. My little olive loves that movie. In the movie they have a house-boy named Agador. When the conservative parents of Robin Williams character's son comes to visit (Gene Hackman), Agador pretends to be the butler and answers the door "I am Spartacus." Later in the movie as their ruse to fool the conservative parents that they are just a straight couple who are not two men (one in drag) who own the drag club downstairs, fails, Robin Williams gets nervous and says:

"Oh Agador..."

And Gene Hackman says, " I thought his name was Spartacus?"

"Oh Agador Spartacus....." calls Robin Williams without missing a beat.

That was one of her favorite moments in the movie, so she named one of the kittens that.

Agador Spartacus


and here is fun montage from the movie:

Birdcage

[Oniya]

That's a really fun movie.  One of these days, I'll get around to seeing La Cage Aux Folles, but until then, Williams/Lane will hold those roles.

[olive]

Me too Oniya. I haven't seen the original and my bestie is always after me to see it. I adore the Williams/Lane version though. Nothing beats Nathan Lane, in my view. *smiles*


And an update:

I'm the worst kitten mom ever. I missed their 9 and 10 week pictures. They turned 10 weeks old yesterday. They are like super duper spastic kitties. They remind me of little chipmunks (Chip and Dale) chasing each other around the house. Nevertheless, as a adorable as they are, they are hard to take a picture of at this stage of their lives. I hope I get one posted before they get too fat and lazy, like the rest of the crew around here.  XD