Teen pregnancies rise in Texas

[Oniya]

The birth-rate among Texas teenagers has increased for the first time in 15 years. 

While this is/was completely to be expected with the near-total abortion ban, I don't think the old white guys reckoned on the demographics:  Latinas are the ones most effected, thanks to difficulties in obtaining health care (including reproductive care/birth control), and the economics of traveling out-of-state to get an abortion.

[ShadowFox89]

Oh I'm sure they're fine with that, means more sla- I mean prison labor that costs almost nothing.

[GloomCookie]

Just out of curiosity, do you think that because most Southern states are anti-abortion, that this somehow means we all long for the days of slavery once more? 

I'm asking because your statement comes across as you feeling that way, that it has absolutely nothing to do with the moral beliefs of people and is entirely based on this perception that every conservative secretly desires to own a plantation full of slaves picking cotton like it was 1860. 

I'm pro-choice, but there are people who are staunch pro-lifers who are the kindest people you will ever meet.

[Oniya]

It could be more of a comment on the wealth-gap that currently exists in this country, where low-income (frequently, but not always minority) families are practically tied to a given location with low opportunity for advancement because they simply can't afford the expense of moving.

Also, the staunch pro-lifers that are kind probably also allow for exceptions that are life-saving for the mother, or in cases of pregnancies from sexual assaults. 

[Keelan]

The birth-rate among Texas teenagers has increased for the first time in 15 years. 

While this is/was completely to be expected with the near-total abortion ban, I don't think the old white guys reckoned on the demographics:  Latinas are the ones most effected, thanks to difficulties in obtaining health care (including reproductive care/birth control), and the economics of traveling out-of-state to get an abortion.

Oh I'm sure they're fine with that, means more sla- I mean prison labor that costs almost nothing.

It could be more of a comment on the wealth-gap that currently exists in this country, where low-income (frequently, but not always minority) families are practically tied to a given location with low opportunity for advancement because they simply can't afford the expense of moving.

Also, the staunch pro-lifers that are kind probably also allow for exceptions that are life-saving for the mother, or in cases of pregnancies from sexual assaults. 

Southern state, 'old white men' and insinuations of Replacement Theory, and slavery?

You'll have to excuse me if I remain skeptical.

[Prism]

there are people who are staunch pro-lifers who are the kindest people you will ever meet.

I would think that any people who would qualify as the kindest people I will ever meet would have respect for my bodily autonomy.

[GloomCookie]

I would think that any people who would qualify as the kindest people I will ever meet would have respect for my bodily autonomy.

Their arguments are that the life of an unborn child should be considered against the casual convenience of terminating an unwanted pregnancy. 

It could be more of a comment on the wealth-gap that currently exists in this country, where low-income (frequently, but not always minority) families are practically tied to a given location with low opportunity for advancement because they simply can't afford the expense of moving.

Also, the staunch pro-lifers that are kind probably also allow for exceptions that are life-saving for the mother, or in cases of pregnancies from sexual assaults. 

A lot of pro-lifers will make exceptions for sexual assaults, rape, and incest, because these are situations where the bodily autonomy of the mother was violated to create a life against her will. What most pro-lifers don't want, however, are people who casually get pregnant because they didn't bother with protection (these people exist) or simply see pregnancy as an inconvenience but still want to have sex and when the inevitable happens, would rather kill a child than proceed with the pregnancy. 

I get it, a lot of people want to have full autonomy over their own lives, but a lot of people see abortions as straight up murder. Just like a lot of people are anti-death penalty because it kills someone and it's been shown that people in the past have been falsely convicted and executed before the truth could come to light.

Sometimes people screw up because they're uneducated or just don't know, but a lot of people still don't see that as justification for terminating a child. Because they see it as the same mindset that if a toddler becomes an inconvenience because they used a crayon on your favorite shoes, that's justification to take them out back and shooting them in the head. You can argue bodily autonomy to a pro-lifer all day, but they still see it as murder.

[Oniya]

One major issue is that the new laws are not allowing those humane exceptions.  The case with Karen Cox proved that.  While she was able to leave the state and have the procedure done, the Texas Supreme Court overturned the lower court's decision that she should have been allowed to have the procedure done without traveling.  A low-income family would not have that option.

[Prism]

Their arguments are that the life of an unborn child should be considered against the casual convenience of terminating an unwanted pregnancy.

Approaching this from the position that abortion is a "casual convenience" (rather than the emotional ordeal it usually is) seems like a rather unkind way of looking at it.

[GloomCookie]

Approaching this from the position that abortion is a "casual convenience" (rather than the emotional ordeal it usually is) seems like a rather unkind way of looking at it.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have worded it that way. 

[Beorning]

A lot of pro-lifers will make exceptions for sexual assaults, rape, and incest, because these are situations where the bodily autonomy of the mother was violated to create a life against her will.

Hm. Not sure about the US pro-lifers, but I suspect they aren't that different from pro-lifers in Poland? And back here, there's quite a lot of pro-lifers who argue in favour of banning abortions in cases of rape. Because "the child is not a fault" etc.

[Al Terego]

there are people who are staunch pro-lifers who are the kindest people you will ever meet.

Does being "staunchly pro life" means that they are for affordable healthcare, strict firearm control, improving inmate condition, curbing police brutality, and abolishing the death penalty?

Because, you know, all those things cost lives.

And if they aren't, then we must have different definitions of kindness.

[greenknight]

I get it, a lot of people want to have full autonomy over their own lives

It's not autonomy over one's life, it's autonomy over one's body. Incarcerated felons have autonomy over their bodies and, recognizing the inherently coercive nature of incarceration, have amplified protections regarding when they can give consent to things. How much harder is it for a prisoner to consent to donating an organ or the like? Under what circumstances can a prisoner consent to sex?

And women, by virtue of being born with a vagina, should have less autonomy over who can use their uteruses than if they were felons?

I get that's not a compelling argument for some. I don't care. Any position ignoring this is born of control of "the womens" more aggressively than the rest of society and should be treated as such.

[Keelan]

Does being "staunchly pro life" means that they are for affordable healthcare, strict firearm control, improving inmate condition, curbing police brutality, and abolishing the death penalty?

Because, you know, all those things cost lives.

And if they aren't, then we must have different definitions of kindness.

Right, because as we know everyone who cares about the lives of the innocent (unborn children/'the fetus') famously want expensive healthcare, violent criminals to have guns, inmates to be tortured endlessly in rusty hovels, more police overreach and violent action, and nigh-summary executions.

It's not autonomy over one's life, it's autonomy over one's body. Incarcerated felons have autonomy over their bodies and, recognizing the inherently coercive nature of incarceration, have amplified protections regarding when they can give consent to things. How much harder is it for a prisoner to consent to donating an organ or the like? Under what circumstances can a prisoner consent to sex?

And women, by virtue of being born with a vagina, should have less autonomy over who can use their uteruses than if they were felons?

I get that's not a compelling argument for some. I don't care. Any position ignoring this is born of control of "the womens" more aggressively than the rest of society and should be treated as such.

...I'm sorry, but *HOW* would banning abortion give OTHER PEOPLE the right to USE women's sexual organs? Banning abortion wouldn't make rape and sexual assault legal, nor would it allow the state to forcefully inseminate women or what-have-you. Likewise whether that right is there or not would be consistent regardless of the incarcerated status right?

Who exactly would be given more rights to "use" a woman's sexual organs if abortion were illegal?

[GloomCookie]

Does being "staunchly pro life" means that they are for affordable healthcare, strict firearm control, improving inmate condition, curbing police brutality, and abolishing the death penalty?

Because, you know, all those things cost lives.

And if they aren't, then we must have different definitions of kindness.

Being pro-life doesn't automatically mean they are anti-affordable healthcare, anti-firearm control, anti-anything! You're committing a strawman argument by claiming that if someone is pro-life, they must also fall into this strict line of reasoning and thus are for these other things I don't like. People can be part of a group and disagree, such as someone being pro-life and want to have strict gun control, just like someone else can be pro-life and be anti-gun control. Abortions are just one political issue that is very personal because it's up to the individual.

And I know someone will say that because states are banning abortion, that it's somehow different. I'd argue the same argument could be made in states like Massachusetts that makes getting a CCW impossible and just having a gun in your vehicle, unloaded and in a case, could still get you arrested. Yet no one will argue that this is somehow an abhorrent thing that means everyone in Massachusetts wants to go around beating small children to death with clubs.

It's not autonomy over one's life, it's autonomy over one's body. Incarcerated felons have autonomy over their bodies and, recognizing the inherently coercive nature of incarceration, have amplified protections regarding when they can give consent to things. How much harder is it for a prisoner to consent to donating an organ or the like? Under what circumstances can a prisoner consent to sex?

And women, by virtue of being born with a vagina, should have less autonomy over who can use their uteruses than if they were felons?

I get that's not a compelling argument for some. I don't care. Any position ignoring this is born of control of "the womens" more aggressively than the rest of society and should be treated as such.

Abstract
Objective: We attempted to determine the national rape-related pregnancy rate and provide descriptive characteristics of pregnancies that result from rape.
Study design: A national probability sample of 4008 adult American women took part in a 3-year longitudinal survey that assessed the prevalence and incidence of rape and related physical and mental health outcomes.
Results: The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45); among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. Among 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy, the majority occurred among adolescents and resulted from assault by a known, often related perpetrator. Only 11.7% of these victims received immediate medical attention after the assault, and 47.1% received no medical attention related to the rape. A total 32.4% of these victims did not discover they were pregnant until they had already entered the second trimester; 32.2% opted to keep the infant whereas 50% underwent abortion and 5.9% placed the infant for adoption; an additional 11.8% had spontaneous abortion.

Link to paper

Description of System: Each year, CDC requests abortion data from the central health agencies for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and New York City. For 2020, a total of 49 reporting areas voluntarily provided aggregate abortion data to CDC. Of these, 48 reporting areas provided data each year during 2011–2020. Census and natality data were used to calculate abortion rates (number of abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years) and ratios (number of abortions per 1,000 live births), respectively. Abortion-related deaths from 2019 were assessed as part of CDC’s Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System (PMSS).
Results: A total of 620,327 abortions for 2020 were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. Among 48 reporting areas with data each year during 2011–2020, in 2020, a total of 615,911 abortions were reported, the abortion rate was 11.2 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 198 abortions per 1,000 live births. From 2019 to 2020, the total number of abortions decreased 2% (from 625,346 total abortions), the abortion rate decreased 2% (from 11.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years), and the abortion ratio increased 2% (from 195 abortions per 1,000 live births). From 2011 to 2020, the total number of reported abortions decreased 15% (from 727,554), the abortion rate decreased 18% (from 13.7 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years), and the abortion ratio decreased 9% (from 217 abortions per 1,000 live births).

Link to paper

Now, let's do some math. There were 615,911 abortions in the year 2020. From the paper on rape statistics, 50% of the 32,101 pregnancies from rape ended in abortions, or 16,050. That means that, statistically, 97% of abortions were performed on women who consented to sex which means they are directly responsible for the act that resulted in their child. While we will never know the number of 'accidental' pregnancies (which would be from broken condoms, mistimed ovulation cycles, etc.) it's still safe to conclude that the majority of these events are consensual.

While you can say that yes, it's absolutely horrific that rape still occurs in our modern day (and don't you fucking dare claim that we are insinuating that it's natural or anything), it still accounts for a fraction of the total abortions per year. Meaning that women, shocker, have autonomy over who they have sex with. 

Guess what? Some women are pro-life. Some women are pro-choice. Women have autonomy and have the ability to form their own opinions and have their own thoughts and feelings on such issues, and claiming otherwise is plain wrong. People can have their own opinions. 

You're making the same argument that kicked off this entire debate. It all started with the argument that abortions were only banned to increase a population of slaves. Now you're claiming it's about controlling women. Go back to reading A Handmaid's Tale or whatever dystopian fantasy novel you're into, because it isn't a reflection of reality. This has been a talking point for decades that old rich white men shouldn't have a say in women's bodily autonomy, and it's a dead horse. 

[ShadowFox89]

Guys, maybe spin this off to it's own thread?

[GloomCookie]

Guys, maybe spin this off to it's own thread?

Yes, that sounds like a good idea.

New Thread