Should teen tweeter apologize?

[Star Safyre]

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/27/3289038/teen-tweeter-wont-apologize-to.html

A Kansas teenager who wrote a disparaging tweet about Gov. Sam Brownback said Sunday that she is rejecting her high school principal's demand for a written apology.

Emma Sullivan, 18, of the Kansas City suburb of Fairway, said she isn't sorry and doesn't think such a letter would be sincere.

The Shawnee Mission East senior was taking part in a Youth in Government program last week in Topeka, Kan., when she sent out a tweet from the back of a crowd of students listening to Brownback's greeting. From her cellphone, she thumbed: "Just made mean comments at gov. brownback and told him he sucked, in person (hash)heblowsalot."

She actually made no such comment and said she was "just joking with friends." But Brownback's office, which monitors social media for postings containing the governor's name, saw Sullivan's post and contacted the Youth in Government program.

Sullivan received a scolding at school and was ordered to send Brownback an apology letter. She said Prinicipal Karl R. Krawitz even suggested talking points for the letter she was supposed to turn in Monday.

Personally, I fail to see why a legal adult needs to apologize for expressing her political beliefs in a non-disruptive way.  She has no reason to be sorry.  It's a shame politicians and school administrators have enough time to browbeat young people's freedom of expression and instead turn that energy into enlivening political debate and addressing the issues students like her want.

[Caeli]

Saw this on my Tumblr feed, and I'm glad that she's recanting an earlier promise to send the governor an apology letter. I don't feel like she did anything wrong for expressing her views as she did. She wrote that tweet for her 65 friends, not as a representative of her school or the club of which she was a member, and not to the 3000 followers that she has gained from the publicity of this incident.

I think she could have used more respectful language in her tweet, but I do not think she should apologize for her opinion. It's a shame that the governor's director of communication was putting her energy towards making this an issue at all, rather than reaching out to Emma and engaging her (and her classmates) in a healthy, serious political dialogue.

Definitely think this girl has her head on straight, and I'm glad her mother is supporting her decision.

Not surprisingly, her personal opinion of Brownback remains low. “I’m just an 18-year-old girl who knows what I believe, and I know what he believes, and we disagree. That is not going to change.”

"She was talking to 65 friends. And also it's the speech they use today. It's more attention grabbing. I raised my kids to be independent, to be strong, to be free thinkers. If she wants to tweet her opinion about Gov. Brownback, I say for her to go for it and I stand totally behind her." -Julie Sullivan (mother of Emma Sullivan)

[Aiden]

So, she lied and didn't actually stand up and tell him "He sucked" in person, but tweeted she did?

[Callie Del Noire]

I look at it like this.. you going to make anyone who says it in public send a letter of apology? No. Not something that we can do right? So why is she having to do it for a tweet?

Sorry, it doesn't meet the measure of scope to demand such a thing. I've said 'President X sucks' to a lot of people a LOT of times... I don't see the secret service breaking down my doors demanding an apology.

This is a tempest in a tea pot, it would have been much smarter for the Gov's staff to keep their damn noses out of the girl's tweets or let it go once they found it.

[Capone]

So, she lied and didn't actually stand up and tell him "He sucked" in person, but tweeted she did?

I know, man. The real crime here is lying. And that she's 18 and typing something so juvenile sounding.

But in truth, this is just another example of a bunch of old bastards unable to understand the new era that is the Internet. What could have been absolutely nothing has now turned into a campaign against the Governor and the school. They are putting all this effort in to advertise against themselves, and we have a teenager that did nothing worthwhile getting publicity for something stupid instead of someone that actually makes a difference in the world.

[Caeli]

This is a tempest in a tea pot, it would have been much smarter for the Gov's staff to keep their damn noses out of the girl's tweets or let it go once they found it.

When I originally read about this, I wondered (aside from why she tweeted about something she didn't even do to begin with) if the governor's staff went after her because they thought they could get her to apologize and make a big fuss out of it that way.

Whatever the reason, it's clearly backfired.

[Martee]

She shouldn't apologize, although I hope this serves as a good lesson for her, and she attempts to sound a little more intelligent in her public commentary in the future.

What really bugs the crap out of me is the part where a politician's staff 'monitors social media for mention of his name', and then feels obligated to track down the commenter. It should have been immediately apparent that the tweet was nothing particularly noteworthy, and did not warrant any further investigation. I think the way everyone behaved, from the Governer's staff on down to the Principal, is pretty damn reprehensible, and is a very frightening reflection of the degradation of liberties in this country.

Now, if a constituent was tweeting about an actual issue that the Governer could address, I can understand contacting the tweeter. Anything else just screams of police state.

[Beguile's Mistress]

She was present at a school-related function and posted something that was a lie.

As a private citizen she had the right to say anything she wants no matter how stupid, disrespectful, immature and idiotic it makes her sound.

You really can't ask a person to apologize for being those things but she should apologize to everyone who read her Tweet because she LIED!

[Oniya]

Actually, the only thing she lied about was saying it to his face.  She still thinks he sucks.

Now, if she'd tweeted that he swallowed...

[Martee]

She did lie, and this whole episode makes her look very silly, but the point remains: she lied to her Twitter followers. She owes them an apology, maybe- so be it (and even there I hesitate to use the word 'owe', as the nature of the tweet lends itself to over-the-top, unbelievable exaggeration). Tweet the apology for lying.

Demanding she apologize in writing to an elected official for voicing an (admittedly crass) opinion? Unacceptable.

[Star Safyre]

If bosses told their employees to write an apology for every fib they told online, I think productivity would take a big hit.

[Caeli]

Yet another update today.

OPEKA, Kan. (AP) -- Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback apologized Monday for his office's response to a disparaging Twitter post by a high school senior who was attending a school function at the state Capitol.

"My staff overreacted to this tweet, and for that I apologize," Brownback said in a Monday statement emailed to The Associated Press. "Freedom of speech is among our most treasured freedoms."

Emma Sullivan, 18, of the Kansas City suburb of Fairway, Kan., was taking part in a Youth in Government program last week in Topeka, Kan., when she sent out a tweet from the back of a crowd of students listening to Brownback's greeting. From her cellphone, she thumbed: "Just made mean comments at gov. brownback and told him he sucked, in person (hash)heblowsalot."

She said she was just joking with friends, but Brownback's office, which monitors social media for postings containing the governor's name, contacted the youth program. Sullivan said she spent nearly an hour in the principal's office and was told to apologize in writing to the governor.

As word of the governor's office reaction spread, Sullivan went from 61 Twitter followers before the incident to more than 9,000 Monday - more than three times the number that follow Brownback's official Twitter account.

The Shawnee Mission East senior decided to not write the apology letter and the school district issued a statement Monday saying there would be no repercussions.

"Whether and to whom any apologies are issued will be left to the individuals involved," the statement said. "The issue has resulted in many teachable moments concerning the use of social media. The district does not intend to take any further action on this matter."

Doug Bonney, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kansas and Western Missouri, said the teen's speech was clearly protected by the First Amendment.

"Saying that the governor is no good and is a blowhard is core protected speech," Bonney said. "It's absolutely what the First Amendment was designed to protect."

Sullivan's 19-year-old sister, Olivia, told the AP her sister was in school Monday when their father talked to school officials. The elder sister, who initially alerted the media about what happened, said she texted with her sister and the teen told her "things were fine."

Emma Sullivan said Sunday that she thought the tweet "has turned into a good starting point to open up dialogue about this ... free speech and the power of social media and the power that people my age could potentially have, that people will listen to us."

[Callie Del Noire]

If bosses told their employees to write an apology for every fib they told online, I think productivity would take a big hit.

Yeah, I figure if we penalized everyone who spoke out their ass or shot off their mouth we'd never get anything done.

[Torch]

Facebook is the Devil...and Twitter is his Handmaiden.

[Beguile's Mistress]

If bosses told their employees to write an apology for every fib they told online, I think productivity would take a big hit.

All of the people who work for me are expected to be honest and respectful at all times when they represent our company.  Situations that give them problems are referred to me and I handle them.  I don't like being lied to and I don't like it when a client or anyone else is lied to.

In the same way Ms. Sullivan had a responsibility to be respectful and honest even if derogatory as a representative of her school.

Doug Bonney, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kansas and Western Missouri, said the teen's speech was clearly protected by the First Amendment.

"Saying that the governor is no good and is a blowhard is core protected speech," Bonney said. "It's absolutely what the First Amendment was designed to protect."

Yet another update today.

Might want to educate the ACLU about the definition of the term Sullivan used.

Yeah, I figure if we penalized everyone who spoke out their ass or shot off their mouth we'd never get anything done.

Sadly, no one holds anyone responsible for anything and therefore jerks like Sullivan are there to be ridiculed.  Holding people to a higher standard is never wrong and her school did the right thing in attempting to censure her.  Demanding an apology may have been too much but she's put herself in a bad spot.  When she applies for anything she'll be Googled and this situation will come up.  She'll be excluded from a lot of things because of it and because of her attitude. 

[Serephino]

The whole thing is just stupid.  It should never have gone any farther than her Twitter account.  She didn't like him, and that was an opinion.  No one should have to apologize for an opinion. 

[Silverfyre]

Her Twitter account has nothing to do with her high school and nor can the school's principal tell her to perform such actions legally when it does not happen on their grounds or within the extent of her representing her high school.  She was at the meeting as a representative of the "Youth in Government" program which is run by the Youth Council program out of her local government's city hall.  She was not representing her high school, so thus they have no right to demand a writing apology from this student.

If someone should be pissed at her, it should be the program's staff, not her school.

Link for the "Youth in Government" program: http://www.ci.manhattan.ks.us/index.aspx?NID=680

[Callie Del Noire]

Sadly, no one holds anyone responsible for anything and therefore jerks like Sullivan are there to be ridiculed.  Holding people to a higher standard is never wrong and her school did the right thing in attempting to censure her.  Demanding an apology may have been too much but she's put herself in a bad spot.  When she applies for anything she'll be Googled and this situation will come up.  She'll be excluded from a lot of things because of it and because of her attitude.

I don't AGREE with her actions but last time I checked there was no law against being a smarmy teenager. This was something that should have been ignored and never gotten this much attention.

And it's just another reminder of the 'immortality' of the Net. Twenty years from now her kids can find out about this by googling mom.

[Silverfyre]

Or she will be forgotten in six months.  Net "immortality" is a fickle creature. 

[Callie Del Noire]

Or she will be forgotten in six months.  Net "immortality" is a fickle creature.

Ah.. but your actions remain on the net no matter what.. I can find my first fanfiction no matter what. Checking certain sites shows every address I've had in the last 17 years.

[Silverfyre]

A good point.  I merely think the greater web presence will forget about her but yeah, you are right there. I have found some of my earliest fiction still floating around and that is over fifteen years old.  Scary thought...

[Beguile's Mistress]

Ah.. but your actions remain on the net no matter what.. I can find my first fanfiction no matter what. Checking certain sites shows every address I've had in the last 17 years.

Every prospective employer who uses Google to search applicants for jobs will find it as will any professional organization and school she applies to.  Forever.  Forever!  FOREVER!  Until the internet dies.

I would never hire her and neither would anyone in charge at my company. 

[Silverfyre]

And that's part of the price she has to be willing to pay for her beliefs, just like anyone who does something like she did and had it become so public.

[Beguile's Mistress]

The thing is that if she had made a statement to the effect that her remark, while it expressed her opinion accurately, could have been phrased more respectfully and that she was wrong to misrepresent how it mwas made in her Tweet, she'd actually look good.  Now she's just a joke and whatever her beliefs are it's not worth it to say the governor blows.

[TheGlyphstone]

Every prospective employer who uses Google to search applicants for jobs will find it as will any professional organization and school she applies to.  Forever.  Forever!  FOREVER!  Until the internet dies.

I would never hire her and neither would anyone in charge at my company.

While you've every right to set your hiring standards, BM, this sort of comment unnerves me, because it sounds very much like the way people with criminal records are treated in the professional world. Far too often, simply having any sort of criminal history, no matter how minor, is an automatic rejection on a job application. That's a topic that deserves its own thread,  but my point is that speaking out, no matter how rudely or crudely or disrespectfully, should never be a criminal act, socially or legally.

[Beguile's Mistress]

While you've every right to set your hiring standards, BM, this sort of comment unnerves me, because it sounds very much like the way people with criminal records are treated in the professional world. Far too often, simply having any sort of criminal history, no matter how minor, is an automatic rejection on a job application. That's a topic that deserves its own thread,  but my point is that speaking out, no matter how rudely or crudely or disrespectfully, should never be a criminal act, socially or legally.

It isn't the speaking out that's in question.  It's the fact that she's a loose cannon with a now proven record of a lack of self-control and any organization that handles sensitive material or has a public face to protect shies away from people they can't trust to act in the best interests of the the company/group/organization.

The contempt she showed for an elected official and doing it in a public forum could easily translate to a boss or a company.  She did nothing to show respect of any kind and if at 18 she is to be considered an adult with all the rights and privileges of an adult then she needs to accept the responsibilities too.  I feel bad for her but not bad enough to want her sort working for me.  Actually, a criminal record that could be discussed would be more acceptable that what she's done. 

It's also common practice for companies to Google prospective employees and do social media searches along with criminal records searches when hiring for certain types of jobs or levels of exposure to clients.  I know of a religious organization who found out the hard way that the person they hired to manage their fund raising had an online site for prostituting herself.

[TheGlyphstone]

  I know of a religious organization who found out the hard way that the person they hired to manage their fund raising had an online site for prostituting herself.

...That had to be embarrassing, for everyone involved.

[Zakharra]

Every prospective employer who uses Google to search applicants for jobs will find it as will any professional organization and school she applies to.  Forever.  Forever!  FOREVER!  Until the internet dies.

I would never hire her and neither would anyone in charge at my company.

Are you serious?  Goddess I hope not...

Basing a hiring on what people say (and isn't even threatening or such) in tweets and such to friends would stop you from hiring her? Really? She didn't do anything criminal. nothing more than an off-hand comment that nearly everyone makes. A little lie. It was nothing big and truthfully, I would expect someone her age, clear up to 21, to say something like that.

If you're going of petty criteria like that, better fire yourself. I don't think there is probably a person alive that hasn't said something like that before. 

[Torch]

Are you serious?  Goddess I hope not...

Basing a hiring on what people say (and isn't even threatening or such) in tweets and such to friends would stop you from hiring her? Really? She didn't do anything criminal. nothing more than an off-hand comment that nearly everyone makes. A little lie. It was nothing big and truthfully, I would expect someone her age, clear up to 21, to say something like that.

If you're going of petty criteria like that, better fire yourself. I don't think there is probably a person alive that hasn't said something like that before.

We've all said things we shouldn't have at one time or another.

The difference is, most of the things we say aren't recorded for posterity. This is the point BeMi is trying to make.

Once something hits the intarwebz, it cannot be erased. Ever.

The bell cannot be unrung. Ever.

This is what young people do not understand about social media sites. There is no Shift/Alt/Delete.

[Iniquitous]

I think my stance on this is…

She’s 18. In a time where it is common to voice your opinions on mediums that reach out to millions of people in a manner that the older generation would not do.

Do I think she needs to learn the lesson about how she voices her opinion? Most definitely. Do I think she needs to apologize? Hell no. Do I think she needs to have people holding it over her head forever and ever amen? No.

She’s a kid. She made a mistake. We all make mistakes and to hold it over her head for the rest of her life is just flat wrong. Kind of reminds me of that old adage “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.” Not a one of us is perfect so who are we to judge a childish action made by a childish teenager? She’ll grow up, she’ll learn to temper what she says online. If she doesn’t, then you penalize her.

[Zeitgeist]

Let me add my (conservative) voice to those that say she should not apologize for voicing her opinion. One might wish she did it a bit more eloquently perhaps, but nevertheless it is free speech. The only thing worse would be to offer up an insincere apology.

And in truth, they lost a possible opportunity to win her over, contact the young woman directly after discovering the tweet, and ask how she thinks the Brownback administration might do better in the future. Rather than reacting the way they did.

[Wajin]

Why would she need to apologize? In my opinion it's just about the Gov. wanting to look all big and important.... I say screw him and don't write the friggin' letter

[Brandon]

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/27/3289038/teen-tweeter-wont-apologize-to.html

Personally, I fail to see why a legal adult needs to apologize for expressing her political beliefs in a non-disruptive way.  She has no reason to be sorry.  It's a shame politicians and school administrators have enough time to browbeat young people's freedom of expression and instead turn that energy into enlivening political debate and addressing the issues students like her want.

I dont see why an apology is needed but I can see why one is desired.

Heres the thing Im seeing as I watch our culture change. Apologies are becoming more of a device to get out of trouble then to admit genuine remorse. This is where my conservative side comes in and says keeping an apology as a genuine sign of remorse is the way to go. By demanding insincere apologies we ultimately devalue what an apology really is

I also see this idea used in parenting and when I see an adult disciplining their child and sa something like "Say your sorry" I just feel disgusted that sorry and apologies have become this get out of trouble act rather then a meaningful act of the human will.

ANyway, if they do try to punish her she has grounds of a lawsuit against the school and possibly the governor as well if he uses his power to have her punished for her comments.

[Caela]

I dont see why an apology is needed but I can see why one is desired.

Heres the thing Im seeing as I watch our culture change. Apologies are becoming more of a device to get out of trouble then to admit genuine remorse. This is where my conservative side comes in and says keeping an apology as a genuine sign of remorse is the way to go. By demanding insincere apologies we ultimately devalue what an apology really is

I also see this idea used in parenting and when I see an adult disciplining their child and sa something like "Say your sorry" I just feel disgusted that sorry and apologies have become this get out of trouble act rather then a meaningful act of the human will.

ANyway, if they do try to punish her she has grounds of a lawsuit against the school and possibly the governor as well if he uses his power to have her punished for her comments.

I agree that no apology (especially an insincere one) is needed and that an apology shouldn't be a "get out of jail free" card. I don't quite see the correlation though between this and teaching small children to apologize. I make my daughter apologize to people if she does something wrong but it doesn't get her out of trouble for the actions committed. Small children have to be taught to apologize. If I didn't make her say sorry (at least now while she's little) how else would she learn to do it? Kids don't learn by osmosis, they learn by being taught. I also make sure that when I do something wrong, even if accidental, she sees me apologizing.

It's all part of teaching them manners.

In the instance of an 18 year old shooting her mouth off, I think the biggest problem is that teenagers just don't get how very PUBLIC their FB, tweets, etc. really are. They think they are saying something to their friends and suddenly there is this feeding frenzy over something they considered inconsequential. Hopefully this will teach her to be more mindful of what she puts out there for other people to read and notice. If I were a perspective employer, especially years from now, I might look at this incident and then look to see if there have been any similar incidents since then. If not then it would be clear that she'd learned her lessons and someone who can learn from their errors and improve their behaviours, or how they represent themselves, should be someone worth considering for a job. If more of the same was found to continue over time, then certainly I would agree that she wouldn't be likely to be the type of person you'd want representing the public face of a company to clients.

[Oniya]

The little Oni has this thing (I'm not sure where she learned it) where she'll 'machine-gun' an apology:  'I'msorryI'msorryI'msorryI'msorry!'  We've actually been working on getting past the words and getting her to understand the 'why' of an apology.  Why should one be sorry about running through the neighbor's flowers?  Running through the flowers squishes them, and makes them look yucky.  Mr(s). Neighbor did a lot of work to make the flowers look pretty.  That way, the 'I'm sorry' is more genuine instead of something Mommy (or Daddy) makes her say.

[Torch]

The little Oni has this thing (I'm not sure where she learned it) where she'll 'machine-gun' an apology:  'I'msorryI'msorryI'msorryI'msorry!'  We've actually been working on getting past the words and getting her to understand the 'why' of an apology. 

Yeah, we've had that around here, too.

I call it the "You aren't sorry you did something wrong, you're sorry you got caught" apology. And then we discuss a sincere apology and why it needs to be given.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Some of my friends with small children have developed a system where after the time out is over they ask the child if they know why they were giving the time out and then they discuss how the child feels.  The next step is to ask how the child thinks the other person feels and quite often that is followed by a totally voluntary apology or one following a simple prompt.  These kids apologize to each other when playing if one does something that upsets or hurts another and they kids are also comfortable expressing displeasure with each other without hitting or retaliating - most of the time.

[Zakharra]

We've all said things we shouldn't have at one time or another.

The difference is, most of the things we say aren't recorded for posterity. This is the point BeMi is trying to make.

Once something hits the intarwebz, it cannot be erased. Ever.

The bell cannot be unrung. Ever.

This is what young people do not understand about social media sites. There is no Shift/Alt/Delete.

I can understand that, but still, to base a hiring on something as petty as that? It was an off hand comment by a young woman. It shouldn't be taken seriously. Now if she'd said she wished she had shot/stab/kill him if she'd been able to stand in front of him, that's something completely different. Was what she did petty? Yes, but the youth do a lot of petty things because they are young. It's certainly not worthy of using as a decision to not hire someone.

That was my issue with that BiMi said.

I do agree that a lot of people don't realize the sheer openness of the internet. That once you post something there, it's pretty much there forever.  That's one reason I don't tweet or have a facebook page or anything like that. I like my privacy and I know on social sites like there, there is none.

[Torch]

  I do agree that a lot of people don't realize the sheer openness of the internet. That once you post something there, it's pretty much there forever.  That's one reason I don't tweet or have a facebook page or anything like that. I like my privacy and I know on social sites like there, there is none.

I agree. I don't use Twitter or FB either, for the exact same reason.

My older daughter has a FB page and I check it regularly (I know the password) to keep tabs on her and her friends.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I can understand that, but still, to base a hiring on something as petty as that? It was an off hand comment by a young woman. It shouldn't be taken seriously. Now if she'd said she wished she had shot/stab/kill him if she'd been able to stand in front of him, that's something completely different. Was what she did petty? Yes, but the youth do a lot of petty things because they are young. It's certainly not worthy of using as a decision to not hire someone.

That was my issue with that BiMi said.

I do agree that a lot of people don't realize the sheer openness of the internet. That once you post something there, it's pretty much there forever.  That's one reason I don't tweet or have a facebook page or anything like that. I like my privacy and I know on social sites like there, there is none.

I'm not saying it to be mean.  I'm saying it because that is real life hitting people in the face.

Social media today is taking the place of what used to be the permanent record in school.  A single infraction can ruin a person's chances of getting all they want out of life.  When a limited number of openings are available and there are more good candidates than enough I don't want to waste time on someone who makes that sort of ill-considered remark about a public figure, Tweets about it and lies, then acts all "too bad, so sad."  Maybe she'll grow up and maybe she won't. 

Do I want her identity as that person to be the focus of client meetings, presentations and sales calls?  NO!  Do I want to have to worry every time she opens her mouth?  NO!  Do I need a disruptive influence in my workplace and among the people I'm responsible for motivating?  NO!  When our deprtments merged a year go I inherited staff from the other department.  Several were young women who have since left because they weren't promoted.  They showed up late at least once a week, called off sick 2-3 days a month, disrespected the break and lunch schedules and talked about fellow workers behind their back.  They were rude and disrespectful to clients, as well.  When the case was being made to deny promotion HR Googled them.  One man refused to handle the files because he said their facebook pages looked like porn.  That wasn't held against them and neither were the remarks they made on their pages about co-workers and bosses, myself included.  What we did take exception to were the remarks they made about clients and their companies. 

I literally don't care what type of person Ms. Sullivan might turn out to be.  I don't have the time or desire to put up with worrying about what she'll do next and frankly quite a few companies and employers think that way.  They would rather have people they can count on.

If that's a hard pill to swallow I can't do anything about that.  You either act like an adult or you take your lumps.  She made a choice.  Now she has to live with it.  Also, it would have all blown over much more quickly if whoever tipped it to the media about the apology and made a big deal out of it had kept their mouth shut.  They did her no favors either.

Their 15 minutes of fame can very well translate into a long term smudge on their record.

[Will]

A Facebook page is constantly updated; what is said there is current and relevant to the applicant/employee's character.  It's not at all the same as denying them a job or promotion based on something they tweeted when they were 18.

[Caela]

The little Oni has this thing (I'm not sure where she learned it) where she'll 'machine-gun' an apology:  'I'msorryI'msorryI'msorryI'msorry!'  We've actually been working on getting past the words and getting her to understand the 'why' of an apology.  Why should one be sorry about running through the neighbor's flowers?  Running through the flowers squishes them, and makes them look yucky.  Mr(s). Neighbor did a lot of work to make the flowers look pretty.  That way, the 'I'm sorry' is more genuine instead of something Mommy (or Daddy) makes her say.

Mine hasn't started the machine gun apologies yet. She has started automatically saying it when she does something wrong, thinking it will get her out of trouble. I thank her for apologizing (if it's me she's saying sorry to) and then she still gets her punishment for whatever she did wrong. When her time out is done we talk about why what she did was wrong, and how she would feel if the same thing was done to her. This, usually, elicits a much more sincere apology, without any prompting, and then she gets hugs and we move on.

If she really doesn't feel she did something wrong, you won't get her to say it no matter how much trouble she's in though. Example, one of the girls at her daycare pulled her hair and wouldn't let go, so she turned her head and bit the girl...hard. We tried to get them to apologize to each other since they were both wrong but she just dug in her heels and said, "But SHE hurt me FIRST Mom!"  She got into trouble for biting and we've been reenforcing the rule that if one of the other kids touches her in a mean way she needs to tell C and let them get into trouble instead of her. lol

A Facebook page is constantly updated; what is said there is current and relevant to the applicant/employee's character.  It's not at all the same as denying them a job or promotion based on something they tweeted when they were 18.

Except that this IS who she is right now. Granted in a couple of years I would agree and hope that she has grown up and that employers will look past one stupid tweet when she was younger. Some may not though, and it's on parents to try and make their kids realize that what they put out on the internet is not like a note passed in class. It can't be thrown away or hidden and could have far longer reaching consequences then they think.

I have a FB page and am very careful about what I put on it. I use it mostly to keep in contact with friends and family out of state so it is mostly just updates about the munchkin and general life stuff. IF I put anything on there about work, the worst I let it get is that 3, 12hr shifts in a row is tiring, or that it was a long day and I'm ready to relax. I make sure to NEVER actually say anything negative about my job, patients, management etc, even if I think it at times. I may tell my friend such things privately, or on the phone, but never in a public forum that a new potential Boss could see and have it come back to bite me in the ass!

[Zakharra]

I'm not saying it to be mean.  I'm saying it because that is real life hitting people in the face.

Social media today is taking the place of what used to be the permanent record in school.  A single infraction can ruin a person's chances of getting all they want out of life.  When a limited number of openings are available and there are more good candidates than enough I don't want to waste time on someone who makes that sort of ill-considered remark about a public figure, Tweets about it and lies, then acts all "too bad, so sad."  Maybe she'll grow up and maybe she won't. 

Do I want her identity as that person to be the focus of client meetings, presentations and sales calls?  NO!  Do I want to have to worry every time she opens her mouth?  NO!  Do I need a disruptive influence in my workplace and among the people I'm responsible for motivating?  NO!  When our deprtments merged a year go I inherited staff from the other department.  Several were young women who have since left because they weren't promoted.  They showed up late at least once a week, called off sick 2-3 days a month, disrespected the break and lunch schedules and talked about fellow workers behind their back.  They were rude and disrespectful to clients, as well.  When the case was being made to deny promotion HR Googled them.  One man refused to handle the files because he said their facebook pages looked like porn.  That wasn't held against them and neither were the remarks they made on their pages about co-workers and bosses, myself included.  What we did take exception to were the remarks they made about clients and their companies. 

I literally don't care what type of person Ms. Sullivan might turn out to be.  I don't have the time or desire to put up with worrying about what she'll do next and frankly quite a few companies and employers think that way.  They would rather have people they can count on.

If that's a hard pill to swallow I can't do anything about that.  You either act like an adult or you take your lumps.  She made a choice.  Now she has to live with it.  Also, it would have all blown over much more quickly if whoever tipped it to the media about the apology and made a big deal out of it had kept their mouth shut.  They did her no favors either.

Their 15 minutes of fame can very well translate into a long term smudge on their record.

The problem is though you are basing your hiring off of a petty thing. Almost ALL teenagers are somewhat disrespective of their elders. So what if she lied about saying it to the governor's face. I would list that under 'inconsequential' at the most and leave it at that. She's still a kid. Kids do stuff like that. It certainly shouldn't hurt her chances three, four, five years down the road after she has finished collage.  By that time, any perspective employer should be looking at her grades and any work experience she has. Not some stupid thing she tweeted when she was 18, for the Goddess's sake. If that is the only thing that keeps her from getting a job, your standards are too bloody high.

If she had a criminal record, that would be something, but a stupid tweet? Please....

[Beguile's Mistress]

A criminal record can be discussed and evaluated.  A criminal record is an issue that has many aspects to it and can be more than a black and white situation.

And since when is the opinion of an employer any less important than her opinion of an elected official?  If she has a right to her opinion then I have the same right.  She chose to express her opinion with a falsehood, on a public forum and using derogatory personal terms and language I find beyond the pale.  I choose to express my opinion by saying she is not the type of person I want in my workplace. 

Immaturity, a lack of respect for authority, lying and laughing about it and expecting to be able to say and do anything you want without facing consequences is not my idea of qualities I want in any employee and the sooner people realize there are consequences to their actions whether they like them or not the better off we'll all be.  As I said earlier, if she had admitted in any way that what she did was inappropriate I'd be looking at her differently. 

[TheGlyphstone]

And what if, 5-6 years down the line, she has since changed her attitudes? That's part of what growing up entails, after all - becoming more mature. Just because 18 is the legal age of adulthood doesn't make everyone worthy of the title 'adult', as we can clearly see here.

She is not the type of person you would want in your workplace now. Is it not unfairly judgmental to prematurely condemn her for the rest of her natural life based on her actions in high school?

[Beguile's Mistress]

First of all, she condemned herself.  She is not beyond redemption but that redemption comes at a price she must want to pay.  To satisfy me she needs to take responsibility for her actions and at least admit that the way she expressed her opinion might have been inappropriate.  An inability to do that will color any future accomplishments she might have.  I've done things in my life that I'm ashamed of and have owned up them, apologized for them and tried to make amends whenever possible. 

It's not impossible for her to do that, too.  She has that power.  The measure of her worth in this instance is not what else she does with her life but what she does to show a sense of maturity and respect about this situation.  Sweeping it under the rug or running away from it by pretending everything is fine doesn't cut it with me.

She feels that apologizing would be insincere.  That tells me that she thinks what she did was right and excusable and justified.  I don't see that at all and I don't see her as being a part of my circle of friends or an employee.  I don't approve of her or her attitude.

[Silverfyre]

She condemned herself? She needs to seek redemption for her words?  She spoke out in a disrespectful way to a state official; she didn't set a church full of children on fire and dance around the ashes.  I think some folks are taking this entirely too strongly than it needs to be taken.  She was disrespectful yes, but the governor's office's own actions speak of just as much dishonesty and disrespect.  Bullying her school into making her issue an apology speaks louder to me than some 18 year old's white lie to her Tumblr followers and her rude opinion on a state official.  There is a big difference between an 18 year old and an experienced adult who has a great deal of public responsibility.

Am I saying that the blame lies entirely outside of her? Not at all. She did this in a way that could have been done a great deal better and a great deal more constructively.  Do I think she should be judged solely by this action and made to "seek redemption" for her remarks? No.  Her entire life and professional reputation is not going to hinge on this single instance.  I think it is being a little extreme here.

[Zeitgeist]

Forgive me if this angle has been covered already, but was it not the school that demanded the apology? Perhaps it doesn't matter who demanded the apology but the gist of the stories written about this has largely been admonishing the Brownback administration for 'over-reacting'. And maybe they did by calling the school in the first place.

But the way I read it, it was the school principal that demanded an apology.

[Silverfyre]

According to the news stories, it was the governor's office that called the school as well as the "Youth in Government' program and demanded that some action be taken, even though the school had no involvement in this situation since the student in question was part of a city-run program that had nothing to do with her representing her school.

[Zeitgeist]

According to the news stories, it was the governor's office that called the school as well as the "Youth in Government' program and demanded that some action be taken, even though the school had no involvement in this situation since the student in question was part of a city-run program that had nothing to do with her representing her school.

Then why did the school principal butt in and demand an apology of the girl? Because that's what the reported story says.

[Silverfyre]

A good question.  I think that is why there is a great deal of outrage on the school's response.

[Beguile's Mistress]

She condemned herself? She needs to seek redemption for her words?  She spoke out in a disrespectful way to a state official; she didn't set a church full of children on fire and dance around the ashes.  I think some folks are taking this entirely too strongly than it needs to be taken.  She was disrespectful yes, but the governor's office's own actions speak of just as much dishonesty and disrespect.  Bullying her school into making her issue an apology speaks louder to me than some 18 year old's white lie to her Tumblr followers and her rude opinion on a state official.  There is a big difference between an 18 year old and an experienced adult who has a great deal of public responsibility.

Am I saying that the blame lies entirely outside of her? Not at all. She did this in a way that could have been done a great deal better and a great deal more constructively.  Do I think she should be judged solely by this action and made to "seek redemption" for her remarks? No.  Her entire life and professional reputation is not going to hinge on this single instance.  I think it is being a little extreme here.

You don't understand that in the business/corporate world what I'm saying really exists.

No matter what she does from now on, no matter where she goes or what she achieves she'll always be known as the girl who said the governor blows.

And lied about saying it to his face.

We discussed this extensively at work today and I wasn't the one who brought it up.  Everything else aside and on a purely professional level she presents as a person who is unreliable and refuses to take correction or direction.  The immaturity might be correctable as well as the foul language which are both highly inappropriate in a business setting but the lying is a big problem and is a red flag.  She does not inspire trust and where people could be more forgiving she didn't even apologize for lying.  In the corporate world where confidentiality and legalities are more important than personal opinion she is tainted.  Maybe as someone's little girl, a child, she could get away with it but it's out there on the web and someone will always bring it up.

If you want to hire her fine.  If you want her to represent you and your company that's great.  If you want to hold her up as a role model to other young people be my guest.  I can't in good conscience put her in any position where she would come in contact with customers because of her reputation and I can't protect her from hazing by fellow employees because of her actions.  I mean, they have as much right to criticize her as she did the governor.  Her reputation and actions will be forever attached to her like toilet paper stuck on her shoe.  Her reputation is what she made it and only she can fix it. 

I didn't do this to her.  She did it to herself.  She made her bed, now she has to lay in it.

The governor's people and the school could have handled things better too, but the governor actually comes out looking better than she does because he took responsibility for what his people did and apologized to her.

The thing is that no matter how you argue it and how much you don't like it she's up against a tough situation that she created for herself with, I think, some help from her sister.  Whether or not I like it, agree with it or endorse it is beside the point.  It is what it is.  Real life can really suck.

[Silverfyre]

And not all business/corporate world companies are of one single mentality.  I have worked in the corporate sector before as both a base-level employee and in management.  Not all companies and employers are going to look at this single event and see her as "tainted'.  That's a generalization of an industry that is made up of many varied viewpoints, hiring policies and ethics.  There is no single "united business code" that all corporate companies follow.  I've learned that in my own years of working in such a sector and most of the companies I have worked for could really care less what one of their employees did when they were still in high school and not representing their school or place of employment.

The governor's office and it coming out of this better than she has is subjective.  I think they both look like idiots in their own ways and whatever backlash they have to deal with is something they will have to face.  Plain and simple.  I believe we agree on that at least.

It is what it is and it's their problem, not mine.  Would I hire her at the moment?  No.  Would I consider it in the future?  I can't say because I don't know her in the future or the type of person she will become.  She can change and grow, like all people and become a wonderful individual or she could stay the same, smart-mouthed teenager she is.  Only time will tell and until then, I don't like to speculate.

[Beguile's Mistress]

It was the governor's people who called, not the governor.  He apologized for their behavior and the actions they took unilaterally.

I know the world I work in, the clients I deal with and the corporate philosophies they embrace.  Perhaps she'll get lucky and find someone who couldn't care less about what she did in the past and perhaps she'll be even luckier and no one will recognize her name or play at Googling everyone they know and find her out.  Perhaps she'll grow up and gain some understanding. 

Every day I come across people who have trouble finding jobs because of what shows up in their past and every day I face choices of how to help them.  There is no help for some of them and she is very close to the demographic that falls into that category.

I get tired of people who think nothing of saying and doing mean, hurtful and nasty things and then act surprised when people don't want them around.  I also see the people that have been hurt by things like that.  They have my compassion.

I feel sorry for her and I pity her.  I truly do.

[Silverfyre]

I find it interesting that he has someone on staff who cruises around social media sites looking for things that make him look bad.  She would have slipped under the radar otherwise, I think.  I wonder if they use tax payer dollars for that...

But I have no doubt you know your part of the corporate sector and the business philosophies that are held by your employers and are used to measure your potential employees.  I would never question that as I know how much of a professional you are when it comes to such things and I commend you for it. 

What she said is foolish and rude but I don't think it is going to measure up in her future unless she lets it and she continues down such a course.  If it does, she reaps what she sows.  If she smartens up and remains outspoken yet does it in a respectful way, I applaud her for standing up for her beliefs.  No one should have to be forced into apologizing by a government institution or a school or organization that she was not representing.  What her principal was asking for was not in his jurisdiction nor in his rights.

[Zakharra]

You don't understand that in the business/corporate world what I'm saying really exists.

No matter what she does from now on, no matter where she goes or what she achieves she'll always be known as the girl who said the governor blows.

And lied about saying it to his face.

We discussed this extensively at work today and I wasn't the one who brought it up.  Everything else aside and on a purely professional level she presents as a person who is unreliable and refuses to take correction or direction.  The immaturity might be correctable as well as the foul language which are both highly inappropriate in a business setting but the lying is a big problem and is a red flag.  She does not inspire trust and where people could be more forgiving she didn't even apologize for lying.  In the corporate world where confidentiality and legalities are more important than personal opinion she is tainted.  Maybe as someone's little girl, a child, she could get away with it but it's out there on the web and someone will always bring it up.

If you want to hire her fine.  If you want her to represent you and your company that's great.  If you want to hold her up as a role model to other young people be my guest.  I can't in good conscience put her in any position where she would come in contact with customers because of her reputation and I can't protect her from hazing by fellow employees because of her actions.  I mean, they have as much right to criticize her as she did the governor.  Her reputation and actions will be forever attached to her like toilet paper stuck on her shoe.  Her reputation is what she made it and only she can fix it. 

I didn't do this to her.  She did it to herself.  She made her bed, now she has to lay in it.

The governor's people and the school could have handled things better too, but the governor actually comes out looking better than she does because he took responsibility for what his people did and apologized to her.

The thing is that no matter how you argue it and how much you don't like it she's up against a tough situation that she created for herself with, I think, some help from her sister.  Whether or not I like it, agree with it or endorse it is beside the point.  It is what it is.  Real life can really suck.

One, it's a small lie. Everyone does it. That's not really damaging. It's nothing of consequence. If it had been a bigger lie, then maybe yes that might be something. As Silverfyre says, 'There is a big difference between an 18 year old and an experienced adult who has a great deal of public responsibility.

Am I saying that the blame lies entirely outside of her? Not at all. She did this in a way that could have been done a great deal better and a great deal more constructively.  Do I think she should be judged solely by this action and made to "seek redemption" for her remarks? No.  Her entire life and professional reputation is not going to hinge on this single instance.  I think it is being a little extreme here. '

You appear to be judging her worse than if she had a criminal record. Your words, 'A criminal record can be discussed and evaluated.  A criminal record is an issue that has many aspects to it and can be more than a black and white situation. '  Why can't this be discussed and evaluated? She's 18. What other positions besides entry level jobs, would she have right now? Would you have put her in a managerial position even if she hadn't said that? I highly doubt it.,  What about in 4-5 years after she has finished collage?  Why would a little incident be held over her head several years down the road?  She, 1, didn't steal anything, 2, didn't kill anyone, 3, didn't commit any ghastly crime. What she did was make a stupid comment to her friends. Sort of ego building. The only difference is it's in a media that it was spotted in.

If she doesn't apologize as you seem to be asking (almost demanding in a way) and has a good solid work record for ten years, a diligent, reliable and good worker , would you refuse to hire her in ten years because of this little incident?

[Beguile's Mistress]

The work record might redeem her reputation.  Right now she has a reputation for being a liar, a foul-mouthed, disrespectful and immature person who needs to grow up and someone who does not take responsibility for her actions.

I'm not judging her as a person but commenting on her public image as it stands today and as it will continue to stand unless SHE changes it.  If and when she's Googled people will look at what she's done and then look for mitigating circumstances or some type of resolution to it.  She simply tells people by ignoring it or celebrating it that she doesn't care about how she might hurt other.  Her mother's comments supporting her behavior tell people she was raised to be this type of person. 

The rest of the world has the right to side-line her if they choose, especially when there are plenty of people with better characters out there or public personae that won't bring down embarrassment and ridicule to their organization.

Google the name Mary Jo.  On page one you'll get responses referring to Mary Jo Koepeckne and Mary Jo Buttafuco, both notorious for having been involved in a scandal many years ago.  These things never go away when they are thrust into the spotlight.  Her situation will never go away either.  But, if she did the mature and adult thing and owned up to what she did wrong and apologized for it the spotlight will be kinder to her.

I really could not care less about her, her situation or whether or not she apologizes.  She has no effect on me or my work or personal life.  I'm stating facts here.  People can make excuses for her and defend her until they are blue in the face.  That will not change what happens in the future when the name Emma Sullivan is Googled.  Even if it doesn't impact on her chances for a job, an education or a membership in a professional association people are always going to see her as that girl who said the governor blows.  They aren't going to remember who the governor was or if he was a good one.  They won't care. 

It's a negative aspect I wouldn't want haning around my neck.

The point I've been trying to make, whether anyone likes it or not, is that out in the world these things matter and people find out about them and discuss them.  You can say she did nothing wrong.  You have to accept the fact that anyone who thinks she did do something wrong has a right to that opinion and a right to use it in evaluating her.

Also, a lie is a lie and a person who lies is a liar.  She didn't fib and tell her friend her hair looked fine when it didn't so that her feelings wouldn't be hurt.  She posted on public media that she spoke to the governor face-to-face and told him what ever it was she Tweeted with the foul language she used.

[Zakharra]

The work record might redeem her reputation.  Right now she has a reputation for being a liar, a foul-mouthed, disrespectful and immature person who needs to grow up and someone who does not take responsibility for her actions.

I'm not judging her as a person but commenting on her public image as it stands today and as it will continue to stand unless SHE changes it.  If and when she's Googled people will look at what she's done and then look for mitigating circumstances or some type of resolution to it.  She simply tells people by ignoring it or celebrating it that she doesn't care about how she might hurt other.  Her mother's comments supporting her behavior tell people she was raised to be this type of person. 

How is what she said 'foul-mouthed'? I can see some of the disrespectful(maybe) and immature because practically everyone at that age is disrespectful and immature. It shouldn't be something to hold over her though. It's not like she stole something. She made an off-hand comment about someone she obviously doesn't like. If she'd called him a 'fucking jackass that sucks corporate cocks', 'I wish he'd be shot/killed' or something like that, you would have a basis to call her foul-mouthed or disrespectful.

As it is, you are overreacting because this,

I'm not judging her as a person

is wrong. You are judging her as a person by calling her foul-mouthed, disrespectful and immature. The last two being a normal part of being a teenager.

The point I've been trying to make, whether anyone likes it or not, is that out in the world these things matter and people find out about them and discuss them.  You can say she did nothing wrong.  You have to accept the fact that anyone who thinks she did do something wrong has a right to that opinion and a right to use it in evaluating her.

Also, a lie is a lie and a person who lies is a liar.  She didn't fib and tell her friend her hair looked fine when it didn't so that her feelings wouldn't be hurt.  She posted on public media that she spoke to the governor face-to-face and told him what ever it was she Tweeted with the foul language she used.

I never said she did anything wrong. I just think that what she did is so minor, an apology isn't needed and if so, just to her friends, of that.  I am sure that none of them really feel she needs to apologize to them.

Her lie is a tiny one. She gave her opinion of the Governor, why should she retract it? Why is that disrespectful? I've called politicians far far worse than what the girl did. Politicians have called other people things just as bad or worse. The fact you might find it disrespectful is irrelevant. It's free speech and ALL political free speech is protected. Even if it isn't what people don't want to hear it.

Honestly you seem to be blowing this far out of proportion. Putting it above a criminal record for how damaging it is for her future.  It's something small and minor. not worth the wffort to be really concerned about

[Iniquitous]

Calling for an apology still stands as wrong in my book - at least towards the Governor. Just because he (or his aides) did not like what was said does not mean she should say she is sorry. What she said is her opinion and nothing that should be apologized for. Would any of us want to have to apologize for our unpopular opinions? I can answer that easily. No, we would not want to be forced into saying sorry.

Now, here is what I find interesting. I have read through that article and nowhere does it say that she did not actually converse with the Governor - rude comments or no. Matter of fact, her exact tweet says “Just made mean comments at gov. Brownback and told him he sucked, in person (hash)heblowsalot.” That implies that she did not converse with him at all but rather blurted out her opinion, be it through yelling or what have you. None of us were there and the article does not clarify if she actually did say those things. For all we know, she could have actually said them. Which would mean she did not lie and that all of this talk about her lying is just people jumping to conclusions.

In other words, assumptions are being made off an article that does not say for definite one way or the other. Now, if there is something printed somewhere that says she most certainly did not say what she tweeted, then yes - she lied (at worst) or exaggerated (at best) to her friends.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Since I've been misquoted here by having my words deliberately taken out of context and having future readers mislead by having the quote source removed and since I've said all I have to say about this subject I'm going to abstain from further posting in this thread.

[SRT4NightRider]

Getting in here a little late but no way in hell should she apologize. I am tired of all these lazy ass politicans who want to silence people because they tweet or facebook their opinion