Free Will

Started by Inkidu, November 13, 2008, 10:41:59 PM

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Inkidu

Quote from: HPDDJ on November 13, 2008, 08:44:57 PM
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus
And... free will?
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Vekseid

Quote from: Inkidu on November 13, 2008, 10:41:59 PM
And... free will?

I would like to see a good definition of free will, honestly...

But as for the quote, when I was a Christian I answered the last line - God is defined, in many philosophies, as the Creator or First Mover. While Christian thought requires that God have an awareness of humanity, only some philosophies hold God to actually be omniscient or omnipotent.

Oniya

Quote from: Geddy LeeYou may choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears
Or kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose Free Will.

Or, to put it more concisely, Free Will rejects the idea that Man's actions are manipulated solely by outside forces, whether that be God, 'the stars', or some other higher power.

There are some branches of Christianity that require all three beliefs to be held simultaneously.  It's clear that the Old Testament God was not omnibenevolent, considering the Plagues of Egypt (which struck down the Egyptian-in-the-Street as well as those actually responsible) and some of the other over-reactions.  Although I've used the Epicurean argument myself to jolt the random door-to-door Bible salesman, it does have a bit of an 'allness attitude'.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Vekseid

Quote from: Oniya on November 19, 2008, 07:33:22 AM
Or, to put it more concisely, Free Will rejects the idea that Man's actions are manipulated solely by outside forces, whether that be God, 'the stars', or some other higher power.

I should be more clear (and probably split this).

Given the exact set of external stimuli and events in your life up until now, would you make a different choice?

Inkidu

#4
Quote from: Vekseid on November 19, 2008, 07:46:13 AM
I should be more clear (and probably split this).

Given the exact set of external stimuli and events in your life up until now, would you make a different choice?
The point is that you  have a choice. Now the choice might suck, and you might feel you have none but you do. Now there are times when man takes away the free will of another, but God won't.

Free will.

1.    free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2.    Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

EDIT: Removed the always, because people are literal.
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Valerian

I think the problem here is that it's impossible to remove the influence of external stimuli.  Your 'free will', or decision making power, is constantly being shaped by outside forces.  Whether those forces are divine or physical or what have you, they're still there, and can't be accounted for.

So if you were trying to conduct an experiment along scientific lines, isolating the concept of free will, you couldn't do it.  We are, one way or another, the sum of our experiences, and those are primarily external, therefore tampering with whatever internal free will we might have.
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

Inkidu

Quote from: Valerian on November 19, 2008, 09:54:16 AM
I think the problem here is that it's impossible to remove the influence of external stimuli.  Your 'free will', or decision making power, is constantly being shaped by outside forces.  Whether those forces are divine or physical or what have you, they're still there, and can't be accounted for.

So if you were trying to conduct an experiment along scientific lines, isolating the concept of free will, you couldn't do it.  We are, one way or another, the sum of our experiences, and those are primarily external, therefore tampering with whatever internal free will we might have.
True. One could argue that one should shape the outside forces that they can. Not let them shape him or her. I feel that is a half empty; half full argument, though.
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Oniya

Quote from: Valerian on November 19, 2008, 09:54:16 AM
I think the problem here is that it's impossible to remove the influence of external stimuli.  Your 'free will', or decision making power, is constantly being shaped by outside forces.  Whether those forces are divine or physical or what have you, they're still there, and can't be accounted for.

So if you were trying to conduct an experiment along scientific lines, isolating the concept of free will, you couldn't do it.  We are, one way or another, the sum of our experiences, and those are primarily external, therefore tampering with whatever internal free will we might have.

That was why I included the word 'solely' in my definition.  Everything depends on the initial conditions to some extent, some more sensitively than others.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Inkidu

Quote from: Oniya on November 19, 2008, 10:02:38 AM
That was why I included the word 'solely' in my definition.  Everything depends on the initial conditions to some extent, some more sensitively than others.
Well honestly I like to point out that I think free will is proven by the fact not everyone believes in God (Or any other god etc.).
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Valerian

Quote from: Oniya on November 19, 2008, 10:02:38 AM
That was why I included the word 'solely' in my definition.  Everything depends on the initial conditions to some extent, some more sensitively than others.

Yes, my comments were aimed mainly at the dictionary definition... which seems to me good as far as a general understanding of the idea, but isn't precise enough for the fine points being dealt with here.  Really, I'm not sure there is a definition that's actually objectively precise enough when one gets really philosophical, but philosophers are sometimes forced to be subjective.

Edit: I don't believe in any one particular god myself, but that's almost certainly because going to church wasn't part of my childhood.  How does that prove free will?
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

Inkidu

I gave those definitions because Veks asked for them.

Fine. So God was a bad choice for free will. Do you choose what you watch on T.V., what you eat, what you wear? It's very basic but it's free will.
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Oniya

Quote from: Valerian on November 19, 2008, 10:12:33 AM
Edit: I don't believe in any one particular god myself, but that's almost certainly because going to church wasn't part of my childhood.  How does that prove free will?

Going to church was part of my childhood, and I'm in the same philosophical head-space in that regard?  

If free will didn't exist, then wouldn't that mean that God chose for me not to believe in Him?  (Not sure how valid that is logically, but it is an interesting question.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Valerian

Quote from: Inkidu on November 19, 2008, 10:20:08 AM
I gave those definitions because Veks asked for them.

Fine. So God was a bad choice for free will. Do you choose what you watch on T.V., what you eat, what you wear? It's very basic but it's free will.

And I was trying to expand on those definitions, to make them more useful here.  :)

One of my coworkers, an otherwise apparently intelligent human being, always votes the straight Republican ticket without thinking twice or even bothering to see who's running, in some cases.  When asked, he says he does this because that was how his father always voted.

Conversely, I've been known to decide on one of those more minor issues such as what clothes to buy by guessing what my mother would pick and then choosing something as opposite as I can get.

Both of us are exercising a sort of reverse free will, you could say -- perhaps he doesn't want the effort of deciding, so chooses to follow his father's path.  I don't need to be as different from my mother as possible, but it makes me feel better.  Still, I don't feel compelled to do that.  So it's both free will and external influence, mixing and combining in weird ways.  You simply can't separate them.

And clearly Oniya and I took two very different paths to arrive at roughly the same place.  Is that because our internal compasses would have taken us there anyway, or because upbringing can have such wildly unpredictable effects?

Quote from: Oniya on November 19, 2008, 10:22:24 AM
If free will didn't exist, then wouldn't that mean that God chose for me not to believe in Him?  (Not sure how valid that is logically, but it is an interesting question.)

Didn't some philosopher cover that question?  It's been much too long since that intro philosophy class...
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

Inkidu

Quoteperhaps he doesn't want the effort of deciding, so chooses to follow his father's path.
Still, that's his choice. He's exercising his free will. He is neither forced, nor obligated to follow in his father's footsteps but he does. 
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Valerian

But if it is free will, it's free will tangled up with externals.

External forces can't be separated from any concept of internal free will.  That's all I'm trying to say here, and you're not quite refuting that.
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

Inkidu

Quote from: Valerian on November 19, 2008, 11:45:13 AM
But if it is free will, it's free will tangled up with externals.

External forces can't be separated from any concept of internal free will.  That's all I'm trying to say here, and you're not quite refuting that.
Well you can let it. I mean. I'm not going to go shooting up a street because it's wrong. However, I could. Yes our personal experiences, upbringing, external stimuli, and such might influence our choices one way or another. However, you don't have to let them. Sometimes the choice is obvious sometimes it's not. Very rarely are we left without one. Very rarely. Just because someone's father was a racist bigot, doesn't mean the son or daughter has to be.
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

Mathim

#16
Free will is a load of horse***.

You have to take into account mental illnesses, childhood innocence and then debate when that ends, etc. Then there's my FAVORITE argument; homosexuals. If they are born that way, that's not their choice, since obviously if the god is the 'creator', he MAKES them that way. And they have to endure all kinds of prejudice and abuse based on that trait they're born with; they didn't receive a choice in that matter, so why would a creator give them that kind of difference and not give them a choice about it?

Then again, I don't know what we really ought to call our consciousness...maybe just consciousness is sufficient to sum it up?
Considering a permanent retirement from Elliquiy, but you can find me on Blue Moon (under the same username).

Valerian

Quote from: Mathim on November 19, 2008, 01:08:45 PM
Free will is a load of horse***.

You have to take into account mental illnesses, childhood innocence and then debate when that ends, etc. Then there's my FAVORITE argument; homosexuals. If they are born that way, that's not their choice, since obviously if the god is the 'creator', he MAKES them that way. And they have to endure all kinds of prejudice and abuse based on that trait they're born with; they didn't receive a choice in that matter, so why would a creator give them that kind of difference and not give them a choice about it?

Then again, I don't know what we really ought to call our consciousness...maybe just consciousness is sufficient to sum it up?
No language like that in the public fora, please, Mathim.  It's also showing disrespect.

Inkidu, the point I'm trying to make (and which I'm not sure you're grasping) is that there's no way to tell, reliably, what is external and what internal.  If you become a vehement animal rights activist because as a toddler you once saw a dog kicked to death -- but you don't remember the incident; it's only in your subconscious -- did you choose that path of your own free will?

Mathim, that's getting into free will versus genetics, which isn't quite what we've been discussing.  However, the fact that one's sexual orientation isn't freely chosen doesn't mean that nothing is ever freely chosen... even if it's only mostly a free decision.
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

Mathim

Sorry, I forget which sections are which.

Still though, if we're debating if free will is something god-given then it really does make very little sense looking at it like that. I didn't quite get to finish my point but if someone is born gay and if someone does prove that it really is a sin in the bible (I think it's still up in the air whether or not there's a definitive answer to that, and I ain't touching another bible again with a fifty-foot pole) then giving someone the challenge of not 'living sinfully' even though they're born with that orientation, is a horrible thing for a creator deity to do. That was my big point about why free will doesn't make sense from that standpoint.
Considering a permanent retirement from Elliquiy, but you can find me on Blue Moon (under the same username).

Silver

Free will..

To me free will is real, very much so. God made man and gave him free will, the power to have control of his or her life. To reject him if they so chose or to welcome the creator with open eyes and arms.

The choices that are made are ours and ours alone. But perhaps there is fate, something to guide us to make the correct choices within life, would that be called 'God giving a helping hand' or is that something else completely. Is there more to free will, fate and other things? Is one more powerful than the other at any given time..

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Vekseid

Quote from: Inkidu on November 19, 2008, 12:18:37 PM
Well you can let it. I mean. I'm not going to go shooting up a street because it's wrong. However, I could.

Your physical capability to do such a thing does not entail mental capability. I can physically write out the Alcubierre metric, it does not mean I understand it. I have an -extreme- mental block against intentionally hurting people, even if they've hurt me. What makes your emotions, and interprets your experiences, are still nothing more than electrochemical stimulation.

But even if it's not - picture some soul that operates independently of your mind, guiding its actions - that soul, however much a part of you it is, must still respond to external stimulus. No matter how complex the machine, it can still be described in terms of input and decisions. The input may change that machine, but that machine was itself at some point constructed from lesser parts - the molecules that make you up.

Sugarman (hal)

Quote from: Inkidu on November 19, 2008, 10:20:08 AM
I gave those definitions because Veks asked for them.

Fine. So God was a bad choice for free will. Do you choose what you watch on T.V., what you eat, what you wear? It's very basic but it's free will.

yes, but only by what is available to choose from.
"And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make."

My On/Off's

Oniya

Quote from: Sugarman (hal) on November 19, 2008, 09:42:48 PM
yes, but only by what is available to choose from.

TiVo, man... TiVo.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

The Overlord

#23

I really tend not to believe anyone or anything 'made' us the way we are, beyond the human genome that's the blueprint for all of us. But mixing of genetic traits and mutations over time does the rest, along with nurture; the environments and experiences that shape us.

It irks me that it really comes down to numbers, and not to derail into another thread I opened recently, but mathematics is probably responsible for everything. If homosexuals and transgenders were the norm rather than the minority, we wouldn't think twice about them. What gets our goat really good as humans is when something sunders our comfortable little blueprint, pops that fragile little bubble of perception that we dwell in. All in all, we're not very progressive as a species because while we're adaptable to changing climates and technological environments, we're slow to progress on a lot of fundamental stuff.

If you want to see sexual deviants as a disease, a curse, a mutation, whatever....ultimately they are what they are because it's written into their DNA. What makes me really laugh is that all this is often seen as going against our nature...but the people that say this think evolution is some ancient force that made the world and then moved on. I challenge that notion with the idea that sexual deviance such as homosexuality is part of our evolution as a species.

Oniya

It is actually seen in nature during times of overpopulation.  Funny, that.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

ShrowdedPoet

First, I only read the first few posts but I feel like sharing my thoughts on free will.

I don't think anybody has any true "free will".  Choices are always effected by outside forces.  Tom doesn't make much money.  He makes the choice to pay rent instead of buying groceries.  Tom is hungry but he chose to keep a roof over his head.  His free will was not really free will it was a choice effected by outside forces.  Also thought of as the sociological imagination.  We may think that we are making choices because we want to but we're not.  We're all effected by outsdie forces to make our choices.
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


mannik

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on November 20, 2008, 04:07:43 PM
First, I only read the first few posts but I feel like sharing my thoughts on free will.

I don't think anybody has any true "free will".  Choices are always effected by outside forces.  Tom doesn't make much money.  He makes the choice to pay rent instead of buying groceries.  Tom is hungry but he chose to keep a roof over his head.  His free will was not really free will it was a choice effected by outside forces.  Also thought of as the sociological imagination.  We may think that we are making choices because we want to but we're not.  We're all effected by outsdie forces to make our choices.

Free will is the ability to choose between two or more courses of action...if Tom didn't have any free will than those outside forces wouldn't matter, he'd still do the same thing no matter what. If he was starving, he'd still pay rent. If he had no clothes, he'd still pay rent. If his house burned down, he'd still pay rent...the fact that those outside factors effect his dicision means he has free will.

ShrowdedPoet

Quote from: mannik on November 20, 2008, 04:19:30 PM
Free will is the ability to choose between two or more courses of action...if Tom didn't have any free will than those outside forces wouldn't matter, he'd still do the same thing no matter what. If he was starving, he'd still pay rent. If he had no clothes, he'd still pay rent. If his house burned down, he'd still pay rent...the fact that those outside factors effect his dicision means he has free will.

But what Tom really wanted to do was buy groceries.  He was starving and wanted food but instead he chose to pay rent because he needed a roof over his head.  He didn't choose it cause he wanted to he chose it cause he had to.
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Oniya

#28
Quote from: mannik on November 20, 2008, 04:19:30 PM
Free will is the ability to choose between two or more courses of action...if Tom didn't have any free will than those outside forces wouldn't matter, he'd still do the same thing no matter what. If he was starving, he'd still pay rent. If he had no clothes, he'd still pay rent. If his house burned down, he'd still pay rent...the fact that those outside factors effect his dicision means he has free will.

Oooh - SIMS!

Edit - because I am a geek.

program  TOM (input, output);         
var status, action : string;
account : real;
begin;
While account>0 then
case status of
'starving': action :='buy food';
'naked': action :='buy clothes';
'horny': action :='hire hooker';
'won lottery': action :='call boss a weenie';
else action :='pay rent'
end;
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

mannik

#29
Quote from: Oniya on November 20, 2008, 04:24:50 PM
Oooh - SIMS!

Edit - because I am a geek.

program  TOM (input, output);         
var status, action : string;
account : real;
begin;
While account>0 then
case status of
'starving': action :='buy food';
'naked': action :='buy clothes';
'horny': action :='hire hooker';
'won lottery': action :='call boss a weenie';
else action :='pay rent'
end;

Yup...that's how you give a computer free will.

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on November 20, 2008, 04:24:06 PM
But what Tom really wanted to do was buy groceries.  He was starving and wanted food but instead he chose to pay rent because he needed a roof over his head.  He didn't choose it cause he wanted to he chose it cause he had to.

He still chose. I have seen plenty of people choose what they wanted instead of what they needed. Tom was just intelegent enough to realize what his priorities were.

The Overlord

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on November 20, 2008, 04:07:43 PM
First, I only read the first few posts but I feel like sharing my thoughts on free will.

I don't think anybody has any true "free will".  Choices are always effected by outside forces.  Tom doesn't make much money.  He makes the choice to pay rent instead of buying groceries.  Tom is hungry but he chose to keep a roof over his head.  His free will was not really free will it was a choice effected by outside forces.  Also thought of as the sociological imagination.  We may think that we are making choices because we want to but we're not.  We're all effected by outsdie forces to make our choices.

Suppose Tom chooses to appropriate the funds needed to keep a roof over his head and keep from going to bed hungry, possibly through less than legal means. What then? Then we’re talking does Tom choose to play by the rules that are shafting him, or playing his own game. Is that free will, or was he coerced since he was at risk of going hungry?

Zakharra

Quote from: The Overlord on November 20, 2008, 09:42:03 PM
Suppose Tom chooses to appropriate the funds needed to keep a roof over his head and keep from going to bed hungry, possibly through less than legal means. What then? Then we’re talking does Tom choose to play by the rules that are shafting him, or playing his own game. Is that free will, or was he coerced since he was at risk of going hungry?

Free will. That doesn't mean he will not suffer the consequences of his actions though. Stealing is stealing.

Vekseid

Quote from: mannik on November 20, 2008, 04:19:30 PM
Free will is the ability to choose between two or more courses of action...if Tom didn't have any free will than those outside forces wouldn't matter, he'd still do the same thing no matter what. If he was starving, he'd still pay rent. If he had no clothes, he'd still pay rent. If his house burned down, he'd still pay rent...the fact that those outside factors effect his dicision means he has free will.

The discussion, here, is whether or not that choice is in some way predetermined.

What, truly, separates Tom making the choice from a computer making the choice?

mannik

Quote from: Vekseid on November 21, 2008, 01:17:49 AM
What, truly, separates Tom making the choice from a computer making the choice?

Possibilites. The computer only has as many possible choices as was programmed into it. Humans on the other hand can choose an infinate number of things to do for any given problem.

Tom can pay rent, or Tom can eat, or Tom can say screw this town and leave, or Tom can try seducing his land lord to avoid paying rent, AND eat...his choices are not really limited by anything but Tom.

Humans also have the ability to choose multiple things at once. A computer must go line by line through code to make it's decision to ultimately pay rent, then start running the code to decide how to feed itself. Where as Tom would concider options on how to obtain food while trying to figure out weather or not to pay rent. By the time he reaches a conclusion about one problem, it is quite possible for him to have already figured out the other. *Tom can pay rent now, and bum some food off his friends and family untill pay day, then he'll be fine.* A computer simply can not do that.

Pumpkin Seeds

The religion aspect of free will does not refer to buying groceries or fixing a house.  This concept is a choice of whether to obey God or not.  A choice to go to Church, to stay at home or to follow another religion.  God was not going to reach down and drop you down where he/she preferred.

Vekseid

Quote from: mannik on November 21, 2008, 02:24:41 AM
Possibilites. The computer only has as many possible choices as was programmed into it. Humans on the other hand can choose an infinate number of things to do for any given problem.

Tom can pay rent, or Tom can eat, or Tom can say screw this town and leave, or Tom can try seducing his land lord to avoid paying rent, AND eat...his choices are not really limited by anything but Tom.

This is, of course, incorrect. Your brain is a neural network. No structure within the brain has been found that cannot be emulated, even if said emulation would come at great cost.

QuoteHumans also have the ability to choose multiple things at once. A computer must go line by line through code to make it's decision to ultimately pay rent, then start running the code to decide how to feed itself.

Where as Tom would concider options on how to obtain food while trying to figure out weather or not to pay rent. By the time he reaches a conclusion about one problem, it is quite possible for him to have already figured out the other. *Tom can pay rent now, and bum some food off his friends and family untill pay day, then he'll be fine.* A computer simply can not do that.

Elliquiy is currently running 87 threads as I type this, FYI.

ShrowdedPoet

There is the arguement (I think I learned in Physical Science but it could have also been philosophy) that your atoms predetermine what you will do.  So therefor it is predetermined just like the computer.  Your atoms give you the instructions and you follow them out.
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Oniya

I think it might be higher up than atoms.  Molecules, maybe.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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ShrowdedPoet

Quote from: Oniya on November 21, 2008, 01:58:52 PM
I think it might be higher up than atoms.  Molecules, maybe.

Maybe. . .though I thought it was atoms. . .
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
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Pumpkin Seeds

There are a lot of arguments as to why people do what they do.  Never heard the atom one though I guess someone could say so.  Course there’s about as much evidence to support a lot of these theories as there is to support a divine being.  So not sure how much stock I put in many of them. 

As for the computer emulating our decision making capabilities…I’m certainly not seeing that right now.

mannik

Quote from: Vekseid on November 21, 2008, 01:55:04 PM
This is, of course, incorrect. Your brain is a neural network. No structure within the brain has been found that cannot be emulated, even if said emulation would come at great cost.
Do you have a link to support that claim?
Quote
Elliquiy is currently running 87 threads as I type this, FYI.
Elliquiy is not a decision structure. It is more of a data base that is storing 87 threads, even then when a user calls up the forum it is loaded line by line, one at a time untill everything is ready to be displayed.

Vekseid

Quote from: mannik on November 21, 2008, 04:28:31 PM
Do you have a link to support that claim?

http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~lss/NNIntro/InvSlides.html

That site is old, and of course does not cover recent discoveries in how plasticity works, for example, but the basic idea is similar.

I am a programmer by trade and am not unfamiliar with AI structures. : )

Quote
Elliquiy is not a decision structure. It is more of a data base that is storing 87 threads, even then when a user calls up the forum it is loaded line by line, one at a time untill everything is ready to be displayed.

Even on a single processor system, there are multiple logical units capable of handling instructions, the order of which is sometimes changed on the fly by the processor itself in order to improve pipelining - out of order execution. You may recall - back when it mattered - discussions about branch prediction, I'm not sure why you would not call those things a 'decision'. They are certainly more complex than the electrochemical summation that occurs in an individual cell of our brains. It's just that there are quite a few cells in the human brain to begin with.

Likewise, in order to support doing 87 things at once, elements need to decide what share of the processor they receive, how much memory they need to be allocated, disk and network access. Queries cannot be allowed to block each other, for example, otherwise everyone here would be at the mercy of smf's rather goofy database design. Some people are forced to wait several seconds when they first log in - but that does not block your access, for example.

The decisions are mechanical, even if sometimes randomness actually drives those decisions - certain elements of TCP require such, for example. But they are still decisions, and your own decisions and thought processes are basically an immense cascading series of summations.

mannik

Quote from: mannik on November 21, 2008, 02:24:41 AM
Possibilites. The computer only has as many possible choices as was programmed into it. Humans on the other hand can choose an infinate number of things to do for any given problem.

Tom can pay rent, or Tom can eat, or Tom can say screw this town and leave, or Tom can try seducing his land lord to avoid paying rent, AND eat...his choices are not really limited by anything but Tom.

Humans also have the ability to choose multiple things at once. A computer must go line by line through code to make it's decision to ultimately pay rent, then start running the code to decide how to feed itself. Where as Tom would concider options on how to obtain food while trying to figure out weather or not to pay rent. By the time he reaches a conclusion about one problem, it is quite possible for him to have already figured out the other. *Tom can pay rent now, and bum some food off his friends and family untill pay day, then he'll be fine.* A computer simply can not do that.

I can't believe I did this, but I completely forgot about fuzzy logic when I made that post.

Basically it is possible to program a computer to do things without fully knowing the outcome or what is expected of it. I first heard of it when I was watching a special on robotics that mentioned the ASIMO. Using various different technologies you can give it simple commands, like take this soda can, and it will, even if you try to move the can away from it or twist it the robot will still make a verry good attempt to take it from you. Dispite the changing circumstances it will figure out a way.

I appologize for my previous arguments, it is clear now they are unfounded...

Oniya

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on November 21, 2008, 01:59:47 PM
Maybe. . .though I thought it was atoms. . .

I'm not a bio-chem person, just to be clear - my adjustment is based only on the fact that you don't often see free-roaming atoms, and I think that's usually when they are bumping around between two interacting molecules in a reaction.

"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

The Overlord

Quote from: Zakharra on November 21, 2008, 12:39:44 AM
Free will. That doesn't mean he will not suffer the consequences of his actions though. Stealing is stealing.

This assuming of course there is something there to hold us accountable for our actions beyond our own human laws.

I might be the only one here with this philosophy, but when it comes to personal survival, things change. If it came to me ending up on the streets in a cardboard box or worse, oh yes, I would steal to prevent it. No question about it.

Oniya

Quote from: The Overlord on November 21, 2008, 07:30:02 PM
This assuming of course there is something there to hold us accountable for our actions beyond our own human laws.

I might be the only one here with this philosophy, but when it comes to personal survival, things change. If it came to me ending up on the streets in a cardboard box or worse, oh yes, I would steal to prevent it. No question about it.


Different people have different levels where they'll break from the 'law-abiding citizen' mold.  For meth addicts, it can be a simple matter of needing that next hit.  For Joe Average, I hope it takes something more extreme.  I've never fired a gun in my life (personal choice), but if it came down to protecting myself or my family from imminent death, I'd be targeting center mass and to heck with 'thou shalt not murder' or the laws against premeditated homicide.  (I'd probably get off on self-defense, but that's beside the point.  I most likely wouldn't be rationalizing at that point.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

The Overlord


This might indeed be a sidetrack for the thread yeah, but likely true everyone has his or her limit. With rare exceptions I think most of us have a dire point where the law of the jungle overrides the law of man. A hundred million years of hardwired coding in our DNA might not hold up in court, but there's no denying it's there.


Meth is a poor example of free will though; I know a meth addict and when that poison gets hold of you, it's not the real person. The drug takes all priority.

Pumpkin Seeds

There is nothing simple about what the human brain accomplishes on a regular basis.  Maintenance of an entire system like the human body is hardly an insignificant task.  Tack onto this the complexity of even simple coordination and the brain is a complex center of activity.  Then there is still the unknown activity involved in creating a personality, making complex decisions and making quick judgments.  Even a simple reflex involves far more activity than just a simple impulse.  How can any of that be considered a simple task.  This when even the article presented states that the animal brain is far too complex for us to mimic at this time.  The human body is a marvel that we are still trying to understand and may never truly comprehend all of its secrets.

As for survival, I would wholly dispute that.  There are incidents across the board where people have taken the unexpected path.  Not everyone faced with poverty turns to theft and not everyone faced with death responds with violence.  There are people that follow the path of others while some actively fight against that path.  People do a lot of strange things when faced with desperate measures.  Some makes choices from survival and some from their own ethical code.

As for meth...then how do some decide to quit and do so?

The Overlord

Quote from: Asku on November 21, 2008, 07:54:17 PM


As for meth...then how do some decide to quit and do so?



To briefly touch on this-

Of the addictive drugs I know of, meth is perhaps the absolute worst. The stuff grips like a vise on your balls; based on what I've personally seen, a meth addict will literally steal from his own mother for his next fix...I cannot stress enough how bad this crap is.

What amazes me about meth is what's in it, should you read the ingredients...what's amazing is all of that crap doesn't take you out immediately, but I think it's about magnification of an effect via multiple components...just as anyone who's ever drank alcohol and smoked weed at the same time knows X does not = 3+3...it's more like 3 squared.

Point is, it's a sheer act of will by a very strong or very lucky person if you manage to kick that monkey off your back.

Oniya

That's why I was using it for the pretty-ultimate-low-end of the scale. 
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Pumpkin Seeds

People do still make the choice though, for whatever reason and some do overcome their addiction.

The Overlord

Quote from: Oniya on November 21, 2008, 08:51:36 PM
That's why I was using it for the pretty-ultimate-low-end of the scale. 

*nod

Best way to beat meth is never to start.

ShrowdedPoet

Human nature will eventually take over.  Breaking points are different for different people but in the end human nature does take over once the breaking point is reached.  As I am struggling to pay bills and eat and make it through life I have a higher breaking point.  I've been homeless before.  Have I stole food to eat?  Yes.  Have I had sex with a co-worker just so they would provide me with a place to sleep that night?  Yes.  Am I proub of any of these actions?  No.  But it's human nature and survival.  If I was faced with protecting myself or my family my breaking point for violence is reached VERY quickly.  If I have a gun in my hand and you are a threat to myself or my family or friends or even a poor sad stranger I will shoot to kill.  If I have a knife in my hand and again am faced with the same predicament I will attack viciously and aim to kill.  If I have no conventional weapons I will use my hands or some other odd object and yes, my aim would be to kill.  Some people when faced with things like this wouldn't act in the same way.  Their breaking points are different.  But there is still a breaking point where they will break down and go for protect and kill.  Animal instincts are in all humans because we are essentially in the most basic point animals.  Yes, morality plays a part in our breaking point but in the end that breaking point still exists. 

*shrugs*  The fact that I am animal and will react as an animal at times does not bother me like it seems to bother other people.  I have just accepted the fact as fact and deal with it. 
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Moondazed

While I understand your point, it irritates me when people use 'human nature' as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility.  I'm not saying that you do that, just that I've seen a LOT of it in the polyamory community, "I don't mean to be bitchy when I'm jealous, it's just human nature.".  Jealousy may be human nature but the actions one takes in response to it are that individual's responsibility.
~*~ Sexual Orientation: bi ~*~ BDSM Orientation: switch ~*~ Ons and Offs ~*~ Active Stories ~*~

ShrowdedPoet

Quote from: Moondazed on November 23, 2008, 11:27:11 AM
While I understand your point, it irritates me when people use 'human nature' as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility.  I'm not saying that you do that, just that I've seen a LOT of it in the polyamory community, "I don't mean to be bitchy when I'm jealous, it's just human nature.".  Jealousy may be human nature but the actions one takes in response to it are that individual's responsibility.

I know you're not saying this to me personally but it definately made me want to clarify my standing in the matter.  Human nature is no excuse.  You did it, you are responsible.  That's how I feel on that subject.  If I killed someone and was charged with murder I'd go to jail and take my punishment because I did it and deserve what I got.  I knew the consiquences of what I did and even if human nature set in it wouldn't matter. . .I still did it, I'm still fully responsible.  If a dog pisses in my floor I hold the dog responsible even though it's just dog nature. 
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Pumpkin Seeds

I'm not sure how far the human nature argument can really go though.  There have been people that refused to fight another person even when death was an option.  There have been cases where people have stood in front of gunfire to save strangers.  Firefighters routinely rush into burning buildings, paramedics under gunfire will go out onto a street to save a wounded person and teachers have barricaded doors with their bodies to protect their students.  None of these speak of this "animal instinct" to me.  Even then, your reference to morality seems to involve social constraints on that person. 

I do not steal because the police will come for me.
I do not kill this person because I will go to jail.
I don't cheat on my taxes cause the IRS will probe me.

Free Will involves more a question of morality.  Is it wrong to steal when I am starving?  Is it wrong to sleep with someone because I need a warm bed?  Is it wrong to kill another person to save myself?  Free Will says that you can make that choice for yourself, nobody will hold your hand or whisper in your ear.  For me the best analogy is the Sims.  Whereas if a Sim goes to pee on the floor, the players can stop him and click on the bathroom.  Free Will says they can't do that.

ShrowdedPoet

We still all have human nature and animal instinct.  We just all have different points of breaking.  Those people you mentioned above, theirs are different than other peoples.  It's normal for one person to be different than the other.  I will kill more quickly when my daughter is threatened than when I am threatened.  I will die more quickly for someone when it is my child than when it is a complete stranger.  Different levels.  Different people.  Different situations.  These are things that effect decisions and when a person will revert to animal instinct. 

I do what I have to to survive, fuck the law and fuck religion.  When it comes down to it I will do what it takes to keep myself and my family going.  It has taken alot of getting comfortable with myself to be able to say that. 

Morality is more a human trait.  Are you saying that without morality you do not have free will?  If we really have 'free will', I am inclined to believe that all living creatures have it.  But, do all living creatures have morality?  If free will is directly tied into morality then there is the question of who or what can feel morality.  Sociopaths are said to have no morality.  Does that then mean that they have no free will.  Wouldn't it then follow that they are not responsible for what they did because they couldn't stop it, it was somehow programed into them?  Not saying any of this is so but it is a very interesting thought that I will now linger on for a while. . .
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Oniya

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on November 23, 2008, 06:21:32 PM
Sociopaths are said to have no morality.  Does that then mean that they have no free will.  Wouldn't it then follow that they are not responsible for what they did because they couldn't stop it, it was somehow programed into them?  Not saying any of this is so but it is a very interesting thought that I will now linger on for a while. . .

This is actually the basis of some insanity defenses - that - although they knew it was wrong - they were unable, due to a mental defect, to comport themselves to the law.

(*watches too many live court cases on TV*)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17