A separate Intersex/transgender/genderqueer/etc tag?

[Scott]

So basically you want your cake and to eat it too?, if one wants to be identified as a third sex/gender, then why not embrace it fully? I've never seen any ridicule on E for anyone's ideas of preferences. 

I'm mildly uneasy with tag switching as well, It's a deception in my book.

[Karma]

Scott, a common trait of intersex and transgender is internal confusion. To call it a deception and expect everyone in the gray area to be able to embrace it fully frankly rubs me quite the wrong way.

[Transgirlenstein]

A deception?!

Not everyone wants to be identified as a third gender or sex.  A lot of transgender people want to be accepted as the gender they feel they should be.  if someone wants to change their tag to reflect their mental state, I don't see that as a deception at all.

[Scott]

Scott, a common trait of intersex and transgender is internal confusion. To call it a deception and expect everyone in the gray area to be able to embrace it fully frankly rubs me quite the wrong way.

A deception?!

Not everyone wants to be identified as a third gender or sex.  A lot of transgender people want to be accepted as the gender they feel they should be.  if someone wants to change their tag to reflect their mental state, I don't see that as a deception at all.

Then I will respectfully agree to disagree with both of you.

[Lithos]

Stepping my big foot to the powder keg as well :)

Here is my two cents to this discussion, this is more from the standpoint of as uniform and stable policy as possible.

For management of gender tags, I think that all of our governments have had to solve that allready, when gender changes, its identifier in your ID changes, so that takes care of the player gender tag, just look at your licence / passport / other ID.

Forums wise, I think that everyone should have access to either lords or ladies boards but not both (altough admins are exception to this allready, and it cannot be any other way :p)

People who identify inwardly as different gender than outwardly should definitely have board where they could talk about their unique issues, but it should be just addition, and not exclude lords / ladies board one is part of allready.

I think that policy along these lines would be fairest and easiest to upkeep overall.

Finally, as far as switching of gender tags goes, here is a bit of explanation to what I stated earlier:

I think that gender we announce in our profile is not the inwardly perceived gender, but the one people who walk around you on the street and spend time with you at work see. Gender change is two part process, first your mental state changes or allready is opposite gender, after that, with some modifications, body follows. Eventually, the gender we feel ourselves to be and the perceived gender both have changed, and that is when it changes in our identification. Our forum profile is just that, identification. Third tag would be... odd to say at least I think, and unnecessary, as there is no third gender really :P (except for true hemaphrodites perhaps).

[Trieste]

Many many people have expressed the worry before that they did not want to be caught out as 'lying' on their app and put their biological gender. This is, in my opinion, the deception, and it's one they have to deal with every day. It is no more fair than if I were forced to pretend I was straight.

It is because of this that your expressed point of view does not mesh with site policy, Scott.

Forums wise, I think that everyone should have access to either lords or ladies boards but not both (altough admins are exception to this allready, and it cannot be any other way :p)

People who identify inwardly as different gender than outwardly should definitely have board where they could talk about their unique issues, but it should be just addition, and not exclude lords / ladies board one is part of allready.

This is something I've been considering, myself.

[Greenthorn]

Okay...question:  Does a tag change mean that people are automatically able to see the Lord or Lady board?  Is it integrated into the software?  Are those who have changed tags now cut off from their gender board (gender as in genital gender...not mindset...not way of life) and allowed to see the other board?

This is really where I think the problem is.  As for a feeling of deception...yeah...I can see it.  I'm heterosexual, I see a Lord tag, I flirt, maybe I even develop a crush, I find out that he is really a she with a Lord tag.........drama/choas/possible loss of a member ensues.  I used "I" simply because well...while throwing around the scenario, I might have that reaction...and it's not because I am closed-minded (I gauge my opinions on people because they are people...not by what sex or lifestyle they live)...I would be embarrassed...hurt...upset...

Of course using myself as an example is a bit far fetched...but it -could- happen.

I don't like the taste of "what could happen" with everyone switching their tags to the opposite gender.  We get entirely too many new people in a month who are not here -seeing- the public switch.  I predict problems.  (and when I have actually thought about this overnight and have come back here to post...this is not a normal "off the cuff GT thing"...)

So, my opinion:  Create a new tag or a new gender sign (one could have Lord title which is genetically what they are...yet have a female gender sign) but stop allowing Lords to be Ladies and Ladies to be Lords.  Really, the tag is there for everyone else, not ourselves.

(None of that is meant to be against anyone, so please, if you feel insulted or anything, PM me)

[Transgirlenstein]

I don't think I am insulted but the thing is GT is that (I am speaking for myself mind you) that I would want to be treated as the gender that you see on that little tag to my left.  Mind you, I can not predict what people might do but I would want to be treated as the gender that I see myself as mentally.  I know several trans/gender queer people that do get very upset being called by the opposite pronoun.

Also, the question is on the gender the person wants to be known as (I might have missed this part in previous posts so please correct me if I do) but then how do we tell the difference between a trans man or a trans woman?  If you see transgendered next to me..what do you call me?  Sir, Madam, Cousin It?  Transexual, transgendered, gender queer?

One of the reasons I signed up to this forum was because I felt it was a place I could be myself.  At first I didn't put my gender as female because I was at a point where I was unsure.  Now that I am in a place where I feel comfortable, I asked for the change because I felt it was proper for me to feel that it was good for me to come out on a place I felt comfortable.  Now, I'm not as sure as I was.  While I think the board is a good idea as it would be nice to talk to others going through similar things, I am disliking the idea of the tag less and less. 

[Zeitgeist]

An interesting dilemma Elliquiy finds itself in. I cant imagine this topic has not come up before this.

I myself do not have a strong opinion one way or the other. Switching genders after registration however seems to me as a bit disingenuous but who am I to pass judgment.

There's the men's room, the ladies room, do we add a third, trans-gender room? Will the janitor pay as much attention to the third room as he/she does with the other original two? Will they be ridiculed or pointed out for entering the third room?

If we are to be all inclusive, do you not have to be consistently all inclusive, and not selectively inclusive?

Therein lies the danger of being inclusive beyond the two genders. If you're going to include all, you must honor and accept all permutations beyond the 'typical'. Perhaps by day someone is principally male and by night female? Seems a likely scenario. Why isn't there a gay female, gay male, straight male, straight female permutation here at Elliquiy then?

Its interesting to sit back and watch, what one must admit is a largely 'liberal' group struggle to identify itself, giving labels to this or that, while at the same time trying to not offend anyone, most of all themselves.

Again, I'm not expressing my own opinion as much as I am observing. Personally, and in regards to my interactions on Elliquiy it matters little to me.

[Greenthorn]

The problem is not with the tags, the transgendered, or even a little sign which shows a bit of both...

The problem lies in the fact that Elliquiy does hold people here who are uncomfortable with a genetic man who holds a Lady title.  The problem is not the one who has the tag...it's what the tag says to others.

The solution to this is something else besides a Lord/Lady tag.  What would even be more universal is simply the gender thingy we all have underneath our tags...why not allow -that- to be changed?

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

Edit to add:  Plus, making it something a bit more subtle might be more comfortable for others who want people to know, but not in a big way ;D

[Scott]

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

Edit to add:  Plus, making it something a bit more subtle might be more comfortable for others who want people to know, but not in a big way ;D

Very Very good idea in my opinion.

[Maeven]

The solution to this is something else besides a Lord/Lady tag.  What would even be more universal is simply the gender thingy we all have underneath our tags...why not allow -that- to be changed?

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

This is just my personal opinion... but if that was adopted, I think the better implementation would be to have the Tag (Lord, Lady, Knight, Dame) be the gender with which that person identifies and the the actual symbol reflective of the XX or XY arrangement.

And, as far as the boards are concerned.  I really don't see the major issue with them having access to both boards (and a separate transgendered board set aside specifically for that particular usergroup).  There are certainly issues discussed on the Ladies board that would be pertinent to a person with a woman's body who identifies more as a man, just as, I'm guessing, there would be a benefit to seeing the Lord's board. 


And, really, someone said it before, but it's not like what's discussed on the Ladies board is super-top-secret stuff.  It's just that it seems more appropriate to be asking just the girls what to do when you're PMSing so bad you're ready to rip the heads off puppies or whether that set of rabbit ears is better for clitoral stimulation than this one. And I'm sure you boys could live the rest of your life without knowing what a Diva Cup is... but I digress.

Switching genders after registration however seems to me as a bit disingenuous but who am I to pass judgment.

I don't think it's disingenuous. I think it's a testament to the level of comfort that's nurtured inside Elliquiy. 



My point is that how someone else perceives themselves shouldn't concern me.  If I like someone and/or enjoy writing with someone... what difference does it make what gender they are or what gender they identify with? The person who is actually feeling that difference is the person who has been labeled one way and doesn't identify with said label. If we have the ability to change that label so that that person feels better, then why don't we do it?

[Cthulhu]

So basically you want your cake and to eat it too?, if one wants to be identified as a third sex/gender, then why not embrace it fully? I've never seen any ridicule on E for anyone's ideas of preferences. 

I'm mildly uneasy with tag switching as well, It's a deception in my book.

It's not like we decided one day "Meh, this ladies/gents board is totally boring, let's see what the gents/ladies are up too."

We're genderconfused. We don't always fit into neat little categories. In order to reply to GT's question - this is the internet. A lot of people could have signed up as a different gender, really. In the theoretical case someone would come on to me, as soon as it would get to flirting, I would discretely let them know the truth.

Maeven is right - this community mattered enough to people that they want to be their true selves there. Can't be anything wrong with that.

[Oniya]

From the questionnaire:

Gender - Your real gender. (you should set this in your profile after getting accepted). This determines whether you get accepted as a Lord or Lady, which determines a number of minor things on this site. If you are hermaphroditic, transgendered, intersex or similar, you do not need to reveal such though we have a small open community here, but please list the gender you identify with.

I know several people offline who are TG, at least one of which is going through reassignment.  Due to the binary system that we all learned from the time we first used a public restroom, there is most definitely a conflict during a person's realization and acceptance of their own gender.  It's not surprising that someone unsure of acceptance might err on the side of caution when making an introduction, and then, as a comfort level is reached, explain the totality of this very personal situation.

[Greenthorn]

My posts were not an attack on anyone.  I am friends (at least I consider them friends) with a few who fall into this category, but that does not change what I see as potential problems.

I'll stop posting here.

[Oniya]

I don't know that anyone has considered them attacks.  The problems exist, and would have to be worked out no matter what. 

[Karma]

Since this is a community... we have to consider the lowest common emotional denominator.

[Cthulhu]

My posts were not an attack on anyone.  I am friends (at least I consider them friends) with a few who fall into this category, but that does not change what I see as potential problems.

I'll stop posting here.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel like I was being defensive. It was a mere reaction of mine, I didn't take your comment personally. 

[Trieste]

Clearly this problem has only arisen because y'all have forgotten one thing:

There are no girls on the internet. Nada. None.

[Will]

Clearly this problem has only arisen because y'all have forgotten one thing:

There are no girls on the internet. Nada. None.

*snickers*

And seriously, I would feel pretty silly begrudging someone access to the Lords' Board.  It's not exactly the most intellectually stimulating collection of topics. :P

[Scott]

And seriously, I would feel pretty silly begrudging someone access to the Lords' Board.  It's not exactly the most intellectually stimulating collection of topics. :P

Agreed.

Just as the Intersex/transgender/genderqueer crowd has the right for a reasonable amount of accommodation to their needs, do the needs of the straight gender crowd have to be cast aside; to be reasonably certain that the partners they have chosen for games be indeed anatomically/emotionally unconfused male or female partners? 

That's why I feel Greenthorn's idea is the most accommodating to all genders, and think it should be given serious thought.

The solution to this is something else besides a Lord/Lady tag.  What would even be more universal is simply the gender thingy we all have underneath our tags...why not allow -that- to be changed?

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

Edit to add:  Plus, making it something a bit more subtle might be more comfortable for others who want people to know, but not in a big way ;D

[Elohim]

If this was most other roleplaying sites on the internet you wouldn’t even have the tags to represent your gender as one or the other.  All you’d have is a person’s name, and their word that they are of the gender they are claiming to belong to.  No one is trying to “Cast aside” the straight people, if you’re that freaked out by the idea of playing with someone of another gender perhaps you should stick to players that your sure sport the correct connecting hardware that you feel comfy with.  If anything I would have imagined the people who switched their gender tags while HERE would warrant a little more respect then what you’re showing to them.  They’ve shown themselves to be one, but came out as feeling more comftorable as the other.  You KNOW that they’re biological sex is different then they’re gender identity. 

[Scott]

I don't remember not showing respect, all I was asking for is straight forward honesty to people who may not have seen this thread, or know that switching gender tags was even possible.

If anyone feels I have disrespected them I truly apologize, I've tried to address an issue and not any individual, and If I've failed at that then I apologize.

[Paradox]

Just a question, somewhat related to one of Seraph's points--

Who cares what the tag says? Most of us are here to write. Some men enjoy playing women, some women enjoy playing men. It really shouldn't matter what gender the writer is, only what gender the character is, but if someone is uncomfortable when it comes to writing with someone else of the same-sex or someone transgendered, then just don't write with those people. Just find a different partner who suits your preferences. It's not that difficult.

[Trieste]

... I should probably note that what happened just recently was not a quick flipping of tags. It was not something that someone asked me out of the blue and I just went and changed and went along on my way. I knew previous to their requests that Cthulhu and Satyr had had some ambivalence with regard to gender. The changing-over of tags was not out of the blue, and if someone randomly came to me asking to switch to Lord or Lady from Lady or Lord, I would have been a bit more cynical.

Please also remember that up until very recently, doctors took it on themselves to mutilate genitals not only without the consent of the newborn, but also without even parental consent. If you had someone born with vestigial female genitalia, it was removed and they were raised as a boy, often without the parents being particularly aware of the surgery until it was too late. They were then told that it was to the child's best interests to be raised "normally", and it was thought that they would adjust.

There is now strong, strong evidence that they most definitely do not. It is happenstance if the doctor happens to assign the correct gender at birth, and some were not assigned that. Many people are blessed with being comfortable in their own body, for the most part. Sure, someone might wish to be taller, or lose a bit of weight, but that's about the extent of it.

Elliquiy has always recognised, subtly, that this is not always the case. It just happened to be placed in the open lately, and if people are not comfortable with it, then I'm very sorry, but this is the way that site policy has been for quite a while. I would feel extremely wrong about enforcing anything less open-minded, because it's cruel and needlessly narrow-minded. Please note that I am not calling people those things, but I do believe that bigotry is as bigotry does.



As far as a separate intersex/gender neutral tag, I have yet to see anyone who actually is gender neutral or intersex ask for one. The only people asking for the differentiation are people who are frightened that there could be freaks among us. When someone who would actually need the tag asks for one, I would love to consider it, but until then...

Perhaps this comes off as harsh, but I'm truly shocked at how many people on Elliquiy are so touchy about this. We have people who are openly gay, bi, masochist, sadist, dom(me), sub, kinky, poly, open, label label label label. I had thought we were past attaching negativity to things that are different from our own experience or state of being. If someone were questioning their sexuality, they would have no such reaction here, but because they are questioning the root word - their sex, versus their gender - people feel the need to get all stirred up. The incredible amount of negativity I have seen regarding someone who doesn't happen to have the 'right' equipment for their identity ... *shakes head* Gender confusion has its own problems. Let's not be yet another place they don't feel comfortable.

Do not misunderstand - I am not advocating the comfort of one group at the discomfort of another. However, it does not take that much extra effort to make sure that the person with whom you are flirting/talking/planning a game is actually someone with whom you would like to flirt/talk/write. If you find out someone is one sex but another gender ... don't write with them. Don't play with them in the Steamboxxx. It does not rob them of their right to be known by the gender they feel is correct.