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Blade Lore

Started by Captain Maltese, April 27, 2018, 06:40:43 AM

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The Green One

Quote from: Captain Maltese on June 04, 2018, 06:09:59 PM
Bwahahaha! Very impressive. And they better be magical, because they look like they weigh about 20 pounds each. I can honestly say that I have never heard of a real weapon designed like a hulahoop. Now I want to see one.
Here's a SFW demonstration of Tira


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Oniya

Betting that sword he's got weighs even more.  I was sort of hoping for more spinny action with the ring blade.  As it was, she seemed to use it like a 'shield with a big hole in the middle' and a 'Klingon Bat'leH that goes full circle'.
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Captain Maltese

Quote from: Love And Submission on June 04, 2018, 06:20:23 PM
Oh no. You've angered the HEMA gods.


Ah. Well done there. You and he is correct. Although the fuller is often referred to as a blood groove, including by me, its primary value lies in the strengthening of the blade through the structuring process. Much like two laminated pieces of wood have a greater strength that one solid piece. I think I might do a longer post on this later on.

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Captain Maltese

Quote from: Liam Dale on June 04, 2018, 07:47:49 PM
Here's a SFW demonstration of Tira


Perhaps I can find something about bladed shields somewhere. I didn't think that shields would be relevant for this thread but maybe, maybe...

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Captain Maltese

"An elegant weapon for a more civilized age." Obi-Wan Kenobi was out of his mind but there is such a thing. The rapier was perhaps the defining bladed weapon of the Renaissance. As the Middle Age got more refined and sophisticated the wealthy and noble got less inclined to spend their lordships personally at war, and the broad sword started to seem heavy and clumsy no matter how many jewels you stuck on in. All over Europe smiths, armed with improved metallurgy skills and even richer customers, began to work on civilian swords that not only enhanced the elegance of the owner's wardrobe and weaker arm and lesser interest in brute combat but also offered longer reach at lesser weight. The rapier is a name that has been slapped on these thin long swords in posterity; back then they were simply called swords.



The rapier is best recognized by its blade, which is longer than most one handed swords. Both edges are sharp but not necessarily all the way down. The grip can vary from basket to the simplest crossguard but is always straight. And this really is an elegant weapon. It stabs, it slashes and and it parries and favors the speedy, nimble fighter over the one with brute strength. It is for good reason that the musketeer movies were so popular. The sport of fencing may be done with epees, swords with soft bending blades, but its roots lie in combat with rapiers. Dueling with rapiers became so common and so lethal that it was gradually forbidden among officers. Because while rapiers had been developed for civilians the officers were still allowed to buy their own and of course they went with what was popular too. There were also schools where rapier fighting was taught.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC6dgtBU6Gs

I won't be posting a lot of youtube videos in this thread but this one happens to be displaying pretty good rapier work as movies go.

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Oniya

They actually hired arguably the best sword instructor available for that movie.  When I took fencing in college, our professor did a showing of that movie as part of the class (along with a few other classics.)  Bob Anderson started his movie career working with Errol Flynn in 1953, did stunt-work in the fencing scenes in From Russia With Love, and was also a stand-in for Darth Vader during some of the light-saber battles (since you mentioned that. ;) )  Prior to that, he'd placed 5th in sabre fencing at the Helsinki Olympics.

(Also, fun-fact - Cary Elwes and Mandy Patinkin actually did that whole scene - no doubles, and including the ambidextrous fighting.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
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Captain Maltese

Quote from: Oniya on June 05, 2018, 11:10:15 AM
They actually hired arguably the best sword instructor available for that movie.  When I took fencing in college, our professor did a showing of that movie as part of the class (along with a few other classics.)  Bob Anderson started his movie career working with Errol Flynn in 1953, did stunt-work in the fencing scenes in From Russia With Love, and was also a stand-in for Darth Vader during some of the light-saber battles (since you mentioned that. ;) )  Prior to that, he'd placed 5th in sabre fencing at the Helsinki Olympics.

(Also, fun-fact - Cary Elwes and Mandy Patinkin actually did that whole scene - no doubles, and including the ambidextrous fighting.)

You went to a much more fun college than I did. On the other hand my college allowed me to start a gun shooter group and helped fund it as it promptly became the biggest student activity group at the school, so it wasn't for lack of willing :) What sort of blades the the class focus on?

Bonus video, since Errol Flynn has been invoked. It is relevant because even though the swords here are broadswords rather than rapiers the fighting style indicates that these are pretty light prop swords... And the fighting IS nice to look at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MqmpL6X_8w

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Oniya

We only used the foil, rigged with the electronic scoring system.  (It was more that there were a few professors who were fun - like the one guy who taught very unusual history classes at 8:30 AM 'so he'd know that the students signing up were actually interested', and the British history professor who included 'A Lion in Winter' and 'Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail' in her curriculum.)  There were two fencing courses - actual competition style (although I don't think we ever fielded a team), and 'stage fencing', which included analyzing the films.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Captain Maltese

Yet another item on the long list of concealable blades. This time the belt clasp knife.



This is an old concept and one of the better ones. Basically you are already wearing a bit of metal on your body, within easy reach, and it is well camouflaged in plain sight with the clasp as the handle and usually the belt as sheath.









And now you know why you have to take your belt off at the airport security check-in.

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Captain Maltese

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it still might not be a duck. A great example of this is the sai, a weapon of Asia that in the western hemisphere is best known from martial arts. And it is close to being irrelevant to this thread since it is missing both an sharp edge and strictly speaking a sharp tip.



The sai seem to usually be used in pairs, which is unusual enough as weapons go. And in spite of the dagger-like appearance it seem to have more in common with batons. Its main strike is a thrust with the blunt top which certainly is painful enough but nonlethal. It can also be used for a minor baton-like blow with the pommel end but the weight and balance precludes a heavy blow. The worst damage available with this weapon is with the sharp tips of the parrying hooks. These hooks are what makes the sai considerable defensive weapons against an opponent with a sword or handle weapon.

Beside being a colorful and highly versatile addition to the martial arts arsenal, the sai has been used by police forces in Okinawa of Japan. It is also known in other Asian countries, and under other names and minor variations.



As a westerner my first thought was, why not sharpen the damn things if you have that much steel to work with in the first place? The answer might be that it like other non-lethal weapons has origins in Hinduism and Buddhism which frown on things sharp. Also, a lot of people probably DID sharpen sais if they got hold of them, which would promptly have renamed them as daggers...

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Oniya

Another point is that the sword itself was limited to the noble class in Japan.  Other weapons grew from what the peasant class had available to them - and making one of these more 'sword-like' (by sharpening the edge) would be hard to explain away.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Captain Maltese

We have looked at axes in general in an earlier post. Today we look at the small version, the tool hand axe as opposed to the throwing axe. They are also different from hatchets in that they do not have a proper hammer head on the opposing side, just a flat side. You'll notice the difference as soon as you try to put in nails.







Your basic, classic hand axe looks a lot like a miniaturized version of your basic wood cleaving axe. Same head with the slightly curving blade and flat back, same overall shape of handle. It is a shape we can find as far back as the era of vikings although there were also other popular shapes all along the road of time. Also it is notable that some non-western cultures, having other types of nature to deal with, prefer completely different tools for doing yard work and wood cleaving - like machetes, or more hookbill-like tools. We might get to look at those later.

However, go into a tools store and you will find there are a number of modern variations. Some of them are capitalizing on a more modern look, or attempting to combine in extra functions. Some are chiefly trying to be cheaper, which comes at a cost.



I am not sure what to call this. A compact axe? With a handle this you lose much of the power (force=mass x acceleration, right?) advantage of having a handle to swing. It does give you a more usable hammer in return.



Another modern touch is the non-wood handle. This screams in the face of non-tradionalists but let's consider it. Hammers have had steel pipe handles since I was a kid. The old wooden handles were nice and today's hammers can actually permanently bend if enough force is applied, but at least they do not break. On the other hand a lot more force is applied to an axe than most hammers. Then there is the new plastic handles; I believe it is some kind of reinforced nylon thing and they have the advantage of being near impervious to water. And neither metal nor plastic handles will splinter and crack.

But wooden handles remain popular for a reason. They weigh little, are more comfortable to work with because the way the shock spreads through the handle, and if something happens that DOES damage it (like someone running over it with a car) it can be replaced. On the top of these wooden grip handles, they are secured to the metal head by a basic wedge. Get that wedge out, the handle can be pulled out and a new goes in. It might be a new one made out of a branch because you are a hundred miles away from a shop, but it is an alternative you will not have with a plastic grip like the one on the Gerber above.

The color is another area that gives us non-traditionalists a heart attack, of course. Bright red is a color that does make sense for a tool you will be using out in nature. Anyone who has been searching the camp place for half an hour for the axe will agree. If you however are among us who like to NOT stick out like a sore thumb in nature, you'll probably prefer the natural wood anyway.





The ideal axe for camping, in my opinion, does not have a very wide blade edge but also not a too short handle or too light a head, which means the above versions are not ideal.

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Captain Maltese

Some times you suspect a blade company makes something just to show they can.



The Microtech Jagdkommando is a triblade, and named after the Austrian special forces of the same name even though they are utterly unrelated. It is a pretty expensive, if fascinating toy available at prices starting at 900 dollars. For that kind of money you get good steel but, well, mostly the characteristics of a cheap survival blade. The makers point out that you can store things in the hollow handle, but for that price I was expecting it to be filled with pure gold. That WOULD have survival value.

As an exercise in engineering and manufacture this is a masterpiece. As a weapon or as a tool this ranks pretty close to putting a plushy Scooby Doo figure on your belt.

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Deamonbane

The long point means that a good stab means a deep cut, while the twisting pattern of the triblade means that it will leave a spiral or jagged cut that is more difficult to close up, with the perforations in the blade to make sure that you can still bleed heavily with the knife in the wound.

A 'tacti-cool' specimen and an interesting thought, but the steel handle instead of rubber or leather make it more of a gimmick weapon than anything else.
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Oniya

If it's actually steel, you could probably leave it in the sheath and use it as a billy-club.  Although the 'hollow' aspect probably removes a good bit of heft.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Captain Maltese

Quote from: Oniya on June 09, 2018, 11:50:03 AM
If it's actually steel, you could probably leave it in the sheath and use it as a billy-club.  Although the 'hollow' aspect probably removes a good bit of heft.

Varying on model it's either 440 steel or titanium.

Microtech are no back alley smithy; they have a number of models out and seem quite professional. Maybe a little too professional for my taste. Here's from their FAQ:

"Improper sharpening will void your knifeā€™s warranty. In many cases, improper sharpening will damage the blade, causing the knife to malfunction or worse. This type of damage is not covered under our Lifetime Warranty.

We believe Microtech knives to be one of the highest quality production knives on the market. In part because every knife that leaves our factory is hand-sharpened by skilled craftsmen. To ensure you are getting a perfect edge on your blade, we ask that you always send your knife to us for proper sharpening."

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Oniya

Titanium's pretty light.  Not as satisfying of a 'thunk' when you whack someone with that.  ;D
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Captain Maltese

Quote from: Deamonbane on June 09, 2018, 06:56:31 AM
The long point means that a good stab means a deep cut, while the twisting pattern of the triblade means that it will leave a spiral or jagged cut that is more difficult to close up, with the perforations in the blade to make sure that you can still bleed heavily with the knife in the wound.

A 'tacti-cool' specimen and an interesting thought, but the steel handle instead of rubber or leather make it more of a gimmick weapon than anything else.

I can't make my mind up on the stabbing value of a triblade. You'd think it would make one helluva wound. I hope I can find a test on that some time. My chief worry is that the triple blade tip will actually require a harder stab just to achieve the same depth of penetration. That, and the chances of getting it lodged easier in muscle and bone. I know this; if I am shelling out a thousand dollars of a blade I will have no intention of leaving it behind in a body.

If I can find a test I will post it.

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Oniya

Well, a little Reddit diving, and it turns out that the triangular blade for bayonets, at least, was for more strength and easier production - this from the guy who wrote the book on it.

In addition, one of the folks in the conversation actually had met someone who got stuck with a triangular blade (reenactor accident) and reported that the 'scar was unmistakable.  The bleeding was profuse, but not preposterously so.'
Source

The 'screwdriver point' (I believe from context that this is a cross-tip) is mentioned as apparently being able to penetrate bone - which as you mentioned might be a rather bad thing as far as getting it stuck.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Captain Maltese

Quote from: Oniya on June 09, 2018, 02:01:35 PM
Well, a little Reddit diving, and it turns out that the triangular blade for bayonets, at least, was for more strength and easier production - this from the guy who wrote the book on it.

In addition, one of the folks in the conversation actually had met someone who got stuck with a triangular blade (reenactor accident) and reported that the 'scar was unmistakable.  The bleeding was profuse, but not preposterously so.'
Source

The 'screwdriver point' (I believe from context that this is a cross-tip) is mentioned as apparently being able to penetrate bone - which as you mentioned might be a rather bad thing as far as getting it stuck.

Well yes, triangular blades are great for stabbing. It strengthens the blade of course. But the medieval stilettos and the triangular bayonets all have straight, blunt edges. The whole idea about the Jagdkommando is that the blades are twisted around each other AND they are apparently honed like razors.

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Oniya

I did find a video about the 'banned' Cyclone knife (similar construction) - but since the guy was apparently doing a 'giveaway' of the thing (banned, remember), I really don't know about accuracy.  He did need to use some effort to get it out on a couple of the tests, so your concern about it getting stuck looks valid.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Captain Maltese

From one dubious blade to another. On the list of I-can't-believe-it-is-military weapons, today we take a look at the spring knife. No, not a switchblade. An actual knife propelled forward with a spring. Or as it is perhaps better known, a ballistic knife. A one shot crossbow!



The above is an American version, but the first I heard of this esoteric device was in the arsenal of the then called Spetsnaz, the Russian special forces. See below. The concept is simple enough; a spring is coiled up with considerable force and is released, at the touch of a button, with equal force at an unsuspecting target. The effective range is probably not much more than ten feet. Versions have been built that replaces the spring with gun powder. Which leaves you with a gun with a much too heavy bullet.



As far as I know this weapon is now banned in many places. But so is murder. Personally I am not hot on this whole thing; you could build a very powerful gun within the same dimensions and that would be casually reloadable while you would need luck to recover the knife part of this contraption. And anyone who have played around with springs will know that they are not exactly silent either. Is it however a functional James Bond weapon, or at least comparable to a throwing knife? I have to concede that if someone pointed a flashlight at me and it suddenly transformed into firing a huge arrow at me I'd be in big trouble. Maybe dead. But a gun would still be worse, on account of having far more things to hit me with than this one shot gadget.

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Captain Maltese


When World War One started the world was well used to war, but the barbarism of the trenches was something that had not been seen for a very long time. The 17th, 18th and 19th centuries had conducted clockwork wars with formalisms, muskets and tin soldiers in pretty uniforms marching and dying in neatly conducted rows. Bot somewhere in Somme, in some filthy trench full of barbed wire and rats and mud and blood, humanity returned to its roots. Snarling beasts indistinguishable in the mud fought each other tooth and nail like rats, and not even bringing their proper rifles and long bayonets with them because the generals had not foreseen that the battlefield would be sewers and tunnels where there was no room to swing such large and unwieldy weapons.

So instead there were other weapons, less sanctioned by the conventions of warfare. Spiked clubs. Home made hand grenades. Pistols. Revolvers with bayonets. Combat knives surfaced soon too, in various shapes and of various efficiency. Length of blade quickly became sacrificed in exchange with better stabbing potential.

The French did not lack for a warlike disposition in these fields of horror and met their German foes with ferocity, but they were lacking in other areas. Ever since the previous war with the Germans, 40 years earlier, the backpack and gear of the French soldier had gotten heavier and bulkier to the point where he was more staggering along than marching. Solid, quality gear by all means, but his back was breaking. And yet there were things lacking, it turned out. The Frenchman had no combat knife, just a long bayonet. He had no personal digging tool either, unlike the Germans who were sharpening their for close combat and using them to terrible effect.



So the defining French trench war weapons turned out to be improvised ones. One popular version was the spike dagger. It was simply the metal poles that the engineers used to string barbed wire over; fairly soft metal so few tools were required to make one. They would be bent into a handle, then given a sharp end or at best a bit of hammered-out blade. It was some times referred to as a French Nail.



Apparently it sufficed for the purpose, which was to stab through German uniforms with all the force the wielder could muster. It is none the less one of the crudest, most savage weapons known from modern warfare.

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Captain Maltese

#98
Battlefields and swords have been a thing together since probably early Stone Age. It's the automatic gun that put the final lid on that one, but although bayonets may have been rather sword shaped at times they were were rarely used as one. At this point we need to differ between the cavalry sword and the infantry sword. I'll get back to the cavalry sword later.

If we bypass various cultural versions for now, the cavalry sword and the infantry sword started parting ways somewhere around the late 17th century. Up to then cavalry had not been a major offensive force on the battlefield, at least not compared to the pike infantry which was excellently suited for destroying offensive cavalry. Instead the main horse riders were the officers, who were already carrying swords but were not exactly going to ride into attack before their foot soldiers. Not if they were sane. However, horse cavalry was coming into its own again because the pike men were being exchanged with musketeers who were more deadly, yet more vulnerable to a swift surprise charge. These cavalry men were getting new swords more suited for their tasks.

Meanwhile, the men on foot still needed swords. At least some of them. Officers needed swords because they had no musket or rifle to put a bayonet on, and so did the artillery soldiers and the grenadiers. The artillery soldier got something fairly close to a machete so they could use it for bushwork; we'll take a look at that one one later too. Grenadiers already had guns and bayonets and grenades for a while too, but also got short swords to emphasize their elite status. Later, I promise. Right now we look at what was essentially the infantry officer's sword, and you will see the superficial similarity to the aforementioned rapier pretty quick.

Okay, a few illustrations for comparison:



Model 1845 English infantry sword. Notice that the upper edge does not go far down, the straight grip and the straight blade. This is a weapon far better suited for striking than stabbing. It is meant for a two-ring carrying system which makes it well suited for wearing during riding.



Pattern 1816 French infantry sword. It differs from the 1845 in being shorter and having a wider blade. It is also, unlike the former, meant to be carried in a leather harness.



USA: Model 1850 Army Staff & Field Officers sword.


It is a little difficult to pinpoint where infantry swords last saw any real use. So many small wars, so many strange individuals. Of European wars things simmered down a bit after the end of the Napoleonic wars, but the unification of Germany was just beginning. At the same time the Age Of The Musket was fast being left behind by the Age Of The Rifle And The Artillery Grenade. Unsurprisingly, officers of most countries were quickly losing interest in having attention drawn to themselves in the front lines. The point in carrying a sword on foot was pretty much gone anyway. The next big war, the Crimean War of 1853-56, was the first time machine guns of any kind were put into use and a lot of old foolish notions were being put to a bloody rest. For the Americans the lesson was hammered in pretty thoroughly during their civil war of 1861-65. At this point most field officers would have preferred a cavalry sword if they had a horse, and they would be also be carrying revolvers.



Still I think the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71 may have been the last major war where infantry swords were carried for anything but decoration, and the last war in Europe where bolt-and-magazine rifles and machine guns weren't issued to all involved armies.

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Oniya

Well, there was always this guy - who not only carried a broadsword, but also a longbow and bagpipes.


And used all three at one point or another.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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