Is god just a bunch of numbers?

[Vekseid]

Unless intelligent design is the cause of the universe and then it becomes highly relevant. One would think. I never said the universe couldn't not or doesn't work in cycles or infinitely regress. You're putting words in my mouth.

Straight from your mouth:

Except nothing in the universe exists without a reason. So therefore anything that exists has a reason. Thus if the universe didn't have a reason then it wouldn't exist. Which it clearly does. :D

So intelligent design has to be a part of it.

You made both a false assumption and a false conclusion.

I suggest that intelligent design, tied to culture of people or not, is the cause of the universe. Nothing just happens. If there wasn't some reason for the creation of the universe then it would have been created. Thus, a creator of some kind.

And now you're just repeating the fallacy again.

Maybe it would help if I put it a different way. What made the creator, then?

[Kurzyk]

Problem with seeking a catalyst or beginning is what if our concept of time is flawed? In other words what if there was no 'beginning or end' as we conceive it? How would we measure an initial causality?

[Oniya]

If you believe in a god and he does not exsist you lose nothing; if you do not believe in a god and he does exist you lose everything!!

I choose to believe there is a god!

Pascal's Wager, I believe.  The question is, what if the god that exists isn't the one that you believe in?  (Personally, I believe all religions are valid, and you end up where you truly believe you'll end up when you die.)

Doesnt mean he is not an inventor or builder..or have a sense of humor...after all explain a duck billed Platypus...there has to be a weird sense of humor behind that!!!


Phaia

We used to joke that the platypus was one of those crayon drawings that His Child brought home one day.  'Look, Daddy!  Look what I made!'

(God better have a sense of humor, or I am so hosed.)

With regards to the original post, I've done a lot of independent study of fractals and chaos theory.  Used to play with the old Life game until my eyes dried out from staring at the screen.  Contemplating the idea that God could be a (or a set of) divine equation(s) - as unpredictable as Lorenz's - gives me distinctly non-PG13 feelings.

[Vekseid]

If you believe in a god and he does not exsist you lose nothing; if you do not believe in a god and he does exist you lose everything!!

I choose to believe there is a god!

I missed this one...

If you believe in the God of the Bible, and the Gnostics are correct, you are actually worse off than you would be if you did not believe in him, as faith in the Demiurge keeps you trapped in this world, whereas true knowledge will set you free. The Demiurge wishes for you to believe and have faith in him because he fears the power that humans will attain with sufficient knowledge.

This is actually pretty vivid in the Bible

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

[Sherona]

Just to be a stickler...didn't the God in the old testament punish mankind for becoming too intelligent? Wasn't that where the bible claimed the different languages came from? God got impatient with human's knowledge and trying to build a tower to god, so he struck them all with different languages so that humans would be too diverse to try and do so again?


Tower of Babel....

Seems to me if that god is the true god then many of us are in deep shit for trying to become more knowledgeable?

Edit: Disclaimer: It has been admittedly more then a decade since I have read the Old Testament so yeah, just dredging fragments of memories there..and don't feel like cracking out the bible. :P

[Oniya]

Just to be a stickler...didn't the God in the old testament punish mankind for becoming too intelligent? Wasn't that where the bible claimed the different languages came from? God got impatient with human's knowledge and trying to build a tower to god, so he struck them all with different languages so that humans would be too diverse to try and do so again?

That's where Vekseid's quote comes from.  There's also the fact that the Forbidden Fruit gave humans the knowledge of Good and Evil.

[Sherona]

That's where Vekseid's quote comes from.  There's also the fact that the Forbidden Fruit gave humans the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Yes Vekseid's quote gave me the idea. It actually states several times in the bible that trying to aquire knowledge is evil or a sin.

It was, supposedly, the fact that Adam and Eve became 'as gods' and knowing 'right from wrong' that they were no longer innocent and thus...apparently...had to earn their way back into god's good graces.

*shrugs*

The way I see it, if God created me...then he created me to be inquisitive, to be questioning, and unable to blindly believe in anything..and then made it to where he could not be proven to exist...thus he should not punish me for making me the way I am :P

[The Overlord]

Yes Vekseid's quote gave me the idea. It actually states several times in the bible that trying to aquire knowledge is evil or a sin.

If you believe in a god and he does not exsist you lose nothing; if you do not believe in a god and he does exist you lose everything!!

I choose to believe there is a god!

All part of a centuries-old propaganda system. Keep the masses at a certain level of education, feeding them only filtered or fabricated information.

The even bigger risk to authority; a population base that not only is educated but, and this is the important part, capable of critical debate. Stating that the acquisition of knowledge is evil or a sin can have no other purpose. If they're not thinking critically they're not likely to question what you're telling them. It is my sincere wish that people could see the gunboat diplomacy for what it is.


If it turns out there is a biblical hell and it's all as described, then fine, god can send me to hell for asking questions.

Do that, and I'll gladly do the work of his opposite number. ...oh, whoops, maybe sending OL to hell isn't a good plan suddenly.  ;)

[Moondazed]

It does seem rather illogical that a higher being would give us the ability to think critically, and then make it a sin to do so regarding certain issues, but that's probably off topic, since it doesn't really address whether there's a Higher Being or not, but more which structured religion one follows if they believe there is :)

[Oniya]

If it turns out there is a biblical hell and it's all as described, then fine, god can send me to hell for asking questions.

Do that, and I'll gladly do the work of his opposite number. ...oh, whoops, maybe sending OL to hell isn't a good plan suddenly.  ;)

Are you saying Heaven doesn't want you and Hell's afraid you'll take over?  ;D

[The Overlord]

It does seem rather illogical that a higher being would give us the ability to think critically, and then make it a sin to do so regarding certain issues, but that's probably off topic, since it doesn't really address whether there's a Higher Being or not, but more which structured religion one follows if they believe there is :)

Stuff like that will get the thinkers asking for who's benefit that came up, for god or your fellow man. It doesn't take a PHD in anything...

Are you saying Heaven doesn't want you and Hell's afraid you'll take over?  ;D

Well if I can't run the place, I'll settle for leading at least one major hellspawn army...while listening to the Metallica cover of the evil army march in Wizard of Oz.  :)

[Maeven]

Have you seen the movie Pi? If you're in a "math" mood, you might throw it on your netflix queue.  It's been a couple-- ok, almost 10-- years since I've seen it but I remember it being pretty fascinating.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_the_movie

[Mathim]

Personally I follow the great bosoms in the sky...I am her high priestess you know...*hands out tracts on Bosomism.*


/end joke

I think this really comes down to the very reason that I am agnostic. Aethiest can not escape the trap of faith. "God made the very science that you are using to refute him. We can not know the nature of God." and Religious people can not escape that there is not a shred of absolute scientific proof that a God exists (can't give absolute proof of faith). *shrugs*

If there is a greater being out there, humans in our finite knowledge can nto possibly comprehend someone who could govern a universe. Personally, I think its more likely that there are beings of higher intellect (face it, the odds against not having intelligent life in the cosmos somewhere are pretty astronomical) and not gods at all. At least, not in the sense of a creator of the universe...might be pretty godlike compared to humans depending on advancements etc and so forth.

That statement reminds me of the gods in the anime Saiyuki. They're all pitifully human in nature, they just possess powers we can't match. That would account for why the world is still such a fucked-up place in spite of gods existing; if I did believe in any higher power at all, that polythestic parliament, sort of like the Greek gods or other sort similiar to that, would be the one I believed in because they mirror us and it would be expected that they'd never be able to stop bad things from happening and indeed relish in it when bad things did happen.

[Oniya]

There's always Clarke's Law to consider, too:  Any sufficiently developed technology is indistinguishable from magic. (I would imagine it could apply to divine powers - maybe Lazarus only needed CPR.)

[Mathim]

Plus if you think about it, we've come along a LONG way in terms of technology, in a very short period of time. Considering how dumb we can all be, that's pretty impressive. Suspiciously impressive. It almost makes me want to believe we had help from some kind of outside source.

[Sherona]

If we are going on the premise that the bible stories are based atleast on a bit of fact, the Lazerus being dead for three days would probably not have been dead at all. there was incidents where the physicians, ahving no intricate instruments to determine life beyond touch and hearing, could ahve just assumed he was dead..and he ended up waking back up.

[HairyHeretic]

if I did believe in any higher power at all, that polythestic parliament, sort of like the Greek gods or other sort similiar to that, would be the one I believed in because they mirror us and it would be expected that they'd never be able to stop bad things from happening and indeed relish in it when bad things did happen.

I'm curious, why do you think the Gods would relish having bad things happen to people?

[The Overlord]

If we are going on the premise that the bible stories are based atleast on a bit of fact, the Lazerus being dead for three days would probably not have been dead at all. there was incidents where the physicians, ahving no intricate instruments to determine life beyond touch and hearing, could ahve just assumed he was dead..and he ended up waking back up.

If you go into it, there's compelling evidence that a lot of key biblical events are describing actual historical occurrences. However, it seems they might have been given supernatural attributes to sync it up with people's faith at the time. I watched a special on, for example, a prehistoric flooding which I believe was in and around the Black Sea region that may have been responsible for the story of the great flood. The key here is the known world at the time, as the classic civilizations on the Eurasian and African continents had limited geography at the time.

Lazarus was likely medically dead for the times, but I'm sure today the guy wouldn't have made the headlines. We must be mindful that centuries past the time of Christ we still tied a string to people's fingers with a bell to alert someone because maybe even the creator doesn't know how many people were buried alive.

The strongest case I've seen is when I researched for a class project the possible science behind the ten plagues of Egypt. There is actual geologic evidence that at least one eruption on the Greek isle of Santorini sent a volcanic fallout to the southeast that blanketed Egypt during its classical pharaonic dynasties.

Fire and hail and days of darkness should of course be obvious when we're talking about a pyroclastic or ash fallout, but the rest are just as interesting. The event could have triggered an algae bloom that turned the Nile red, and disrupted the local ecosystem, triggering things like the animal plagues, but of course locust plagues are still pretty common in parts of the world to this day. It’s easy to figure out the boils and pestilence after you're dealing with the death and destruction in the aftermath.

When I did the research, the one weak link in the chain appeared to be the final plague, the death of the firstborn...of course what sort of natural disaster might have been so selective? Well, turns out that's got a strong chance of veracity as well. The fallout would have decimated Nile crops, and triggered a mold growth in food stores like grains, that was potentially fatal if ingested.

Being as families would have indeed given priority to the firstborn male among multiple children, as has been the case in a number of cultures, the kid would have been the first to go from contaminated food, a type of black mold IIRC. Once I did the research I went from intrigued by the topic to pretty much convinced that the OT was describing an actual event. The Jews just gave it a supernatural spin to describe it as god's punishment on Egypt for their captivity. Did this event actually change history by changing the pharaoh’s mind? Hard to say, but in the ensuing chaos one wonders if Egypt would have had the capacity to contain the Jews when they we're most likely doing nothing but licking their wounds.

[Sherona]

I watched the special on the flood and the plagues of egypt as well. This is why I suggested the lazarus explanation that he really wasn't 'dead' just they believed him to be.

I fully believe that there were people in the bible that correspond wtih the bible stories..but I think the stories are just attempts at explaining things they could ot explain in their time period.

[The Overlord]

I watched the special on the flood and the plagues of egypt as well. This is why I suggested the lazarus explanation that he really wasn't 'dead' just they believed him to be.

I fully believe that there were people in the bible that correspond wtih the bible stories..but I think the stories are just attempts at explaining things they could ot explain in their time period.

There's quite a bit to suggest that, including to back up some natural reasons behind a lot of what is attributed to Christ beyond the Lazarus incident.

All I've seen and heard to date suggests an alternative to Christ being the Son of God. I am compelled to believe he was an actual and pivotal historical figure, also given divine attributes...other miracles he allegedly preformed (assuming we can trust the gospels that far) may have natural causes.

We must remember that Christianity sprung up at this time as a cult...it wouldn't be the only time that a cult leader has given himself divine qualities or was described as such by his followers, but it does get interesting how this fledgling cult managed to become the faith of realm later in the Holy Roman Empire....seems to me the line is very fine between religions and cults; perhaps only cultural significance makes the difference, but that's fuel for a whole other thread.


This is going off on a limb somewhat, but if you want to describe Christ as anything more than human, the whole notion of ancient astronaut theory gets interesting. Assuming for the time that we have been visited by extraterrestrials since antiquity...if you wanted to come down and influence these primitive apes in a positive way, you'd want to not appear too alien and stoke their fear. Appearing as one of them would do...and of course having crossed interstellar space you'd have technology at your fingertips that would be seen in many eras of history as magical or miraculous.

Hell, go through a time machine and take a laptop with extra batteries to the Middle Ages. Assuming you're not branded a witch you might just have divine powers.  :-\

[Mathim]

I'm curious, why do you think the Gods would relish having bad things happen to people?

You must never have studied mythology, dude. The gods were horribly vengeful. They sat by and watched as the Greeks and Trojans slaughtered each other, only stepping in when the humans pissed them off. Humans were their playthings; the whole Odyssey happened just because Poseidon got pissed off at Odysseus, and enjoyed watching him suffer. So of course I think they'd relish watching bad things happen to humans. Why should they care, why should they NOT want to? It's got to be pretty boring up their on Olympus. Didn't most of the gods take human sex partners to cheat on their spouses with, too? And the only ones paying for those consequences? Humans. Deservedly so, in the eyes of those gods. There's tons more examples and reasons, but I'm just saying, when the gods cause or allow something bad to happen to the humans, they knew full well what they were doing, even if they knew the humans didn't deserve it.

[HairyHeretic]

You must never have studied mythology, dude.

Studied .. not to a great extent, but I have read it recreationally for long enough. Just look who I have in my avatar :)

The gods were horribly vengeful. They sat by and watched as the Greeks and Trojans slaughtered each other, only stepping in when the humans pissed them off. Humans were their playthings; the whole Odyssey happened just because Poseidon got pissed off at Odysseus, and enjoyed watching him suffer. So of course I think they'd relish watching bad things happen to humans. Why should they care, why should they NOT want to? It's got to be pretty boring up their on Olympus. Didn't most of the gods take human sex partners to cheat on their spouses with, too? And the only ones paying for those consequences? Humans. Deservedly so, in the eyes of those gods. There's tons more examples and reasons, but I'm just saying, when the gods cause or allow something bad to happen to the humans, they knew full well what they were doing, even if they knew the humans didn't deserve it.

Thats one particular group of Gods. You seem to have plenty of examples of them behaving badly, but what about stories of them behaving well, and helping humanity?

For my own Gods, take Ragnarok. The end of the world comes, and the Gods will fight and die to defend humanity from the forces of chaos. Seems that's a fairly nice thing to be doing.

[Oniya]

Studied .. not to a great extent, but I have read it recreationally for long enough. Just look who I have in my avatar :)

Thats one particular group of Gods. You seem to have plenty of examples of them behaving badly, but what about stories of them behaving well, and helping humanity?

For my own Gods, take Ragnarok. The end of the world comes, and the Gods will fight and die to defend humanity from the forces of chaos. Seems that's a fairly nice thing to be doing.

Most of the polytheistic religions have myths that show the immortals as both noble and knavish.  The same god that will grant a boon for a devout worshiper will curse someone who shows disrespect of the slightest degree.  Instead of one Being that is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, the polytheistic gods are what my Myths and Legends teacher called 'Human, but more so.'

As for 'sitting by and watching' during the Trojan War, you won't find a war in history where some of the losers didn't ask why their god had sat by and watched it happen. Or nutjobs like Phelps who say that God lets us lose people because we don't hate the same people he does.

[Inkidu]

All numbers are abstractions humans make to quantify the infinite. God is the infinite so in an abstract way God is a bunch of numbers, however that means you and I, and everything is just an abstraction. Cooooool.

[Oniya]

Dammit, now I want to go read Principia Mathematica.  Closest thing to 'Fiat lux' that mathematics has.