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What order should I watch Star Wars in?

Started by jouzinka, June 16, 2012, 12:48:04 PM

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rick957

Obviously I'm way late to this conversation, but whatever.  :)

I think it's amusing to see how so many people have strong opinions about the Star Wars movies.  They're just so much fun to opine about, and everyone has seen them, or most of them at least, so everyone knows what you're talking about.

I'm in the camp that says IV-V-VI were all genius and the later ones weren't worth the digital media they were recorded on.

I'd like to add that if you really care about filmmaking aesthetics, then seeing IV-V-VI in their original versions is a totally different experience from seeing them in the "Special Edition" versions, which are the only versions widely available now.  There are many hugely-important reasons why the Special Edition versions are ghastly travesties.  (The original versions were made available briefly in a DVD box set that I believe may have already gone out of print, although it can still be found; it's expensive to buy it already, but should be easily rentable, I would think.)

None of that really matters now I suppose, since you already saw the movies, Jouzinka, and I would guess that it's nearly certain you saw them in the horrid Special Edition form.  No big deal of course, but it's too bad.

I would give one of my testicles to be able to see the original trilogy again for the very first time.  It is terribly saddening to hear that the films have aged poorly and no longer have anywhere near the impact on new viewers that they once did.  There hasn't been anything to compare to the public phenomena lit off by the original trilogy since, and in my opinion, those films lived up entirely to the hype around them, so much so that every mega-blockbuster since then pales by comparison, at least for many of us who saw the original trilogy in the theaters as children, and most especially for guys, for some reason. 

Pure, unspeakable, unadulterated magic.  :)

Shjade

Quote from: rick957 on June 24, 2012, 06:14:51 PM
and most especially for guys, for some reason. 

At a guess, this is because their content is 99% male. There's pretty much only one noteworthy female in the trilogy and, let's face it, she's used as a plot device for the guys far more than she's developed as a character on her own. There's not a lot in there for female viewers to relate to directly, just a lot of boys with toys. :|

And while I saw the original trilogy as a kid (many times) and liked it a great deal, it has way too much hype. But then, I'm sort of an anti-fan person; when people get super worked up about something I tend to just be confused by it. They're movies, and they're entertaining; they're not material deserving of making a religion out of the content.
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rick957

QuoteAt a guess, this is because their content is 99% male. There's pretty much only one noteworthy female in the trilogy and, let's face it, she's used as a plot device for the guys far more than she's developed as a character on her own. There's not a lot in there for female viewers to relate to directly, just a lot of boys with toys. :|

It's too bad that threads like this aren't allowed to get too far off-topic, because you're suggesting something quite provocative here about what appeals more naturally to each gender.  I can totally understand what you're saying and sympathize with it, but personally, I would argue that the original trilogy succeeded much more broadly than that; they were well-crafted epics with many features to appeal to an unbelievably-wide swath of the global public ... Everyone was swept away at the time, at least, men and women alike ... You could make a case that the women were just tagging along or something, but I wouldn't agree with that either.  ;)  Don't women love a good story too?  I sure hope so, and I think those were brilliantly-written stories (albeit extremely derivative and borrowing heavily from many prior sources).

QuoteAnd while I saw the original trilogy as a kid (many times) and liked it a great deal, it has way too much hype. But then, I'm sort of an anti-fan person; when people get super worked up about something I tend to just be confused by it. They're movies, and they're entertaining; they're not material deserving of making a religion out of the content.

It's very possible and even accurate, I think, to argue that the original trilogy contributed to the rise of the brainless action blockbuster and effectively killed off a nascent filmmaking renaissance that occurred in the 70s ... As to the importance of films, I don't hold them up as any religion, but I consider them much more than fluff -- an artform with as much potential and as much importance as any other major artform ... And I am a person who holds art of various kinds in the highest esteem, not on the level of politics or ethics or religion, but not as far beneath those as you might expect.  I likes me a good movie.  :)

Shjade

Quote from: rick957 on June 24, 2012, 06:56:07 PM
As to the importance of films, I don't hold them up as any religion, but I consider them much more than fluff -- an artform with as much potential and as much importance as any other major artform ... And I am a person who holds art of various kinds in the highest esteem, not on the level of politics or ethics or religion, but not as far beneath those as you might expect.  I likes me a good movie.  :)

Which is cool, and that's a defensible position.

Then there's the Jedi religion.

Need I say more?
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Silverfyre

And yet the "Jedi Religion" was influenced heavily by real world religions, especially Eastern philosophies.  So there is a parallel that makes it slightly less unbelievable in my eyes.

I also still love you, jouzi.


Chris Brady

4-6 are by no means great.  Hell, they aren't really original in terms plot and story, either.  However, what made them great for me, was seeing how the setting was used.  That and used starships.  Until Star Wars all the space ships in all space opera/sci-fi were shiny, silvery or white.  In SW they were used, lived in, beaten, loved.  Just like people use technology today.  It brought a sense of plausibility to my young mind.

I love Star Wars for the promise it holds as a setting, the stories it CAN tell.  And honestly, anyone can tell a better Star Wars story than Mr. Lucas these days.
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rick957

#31
Okay, I suppose this is technically "off-topic," but I hope that's okay, considering that it's an older thread anyway, and Jouzinka has already had her question answered and already started watching the movies.  This is an innocent and sincere question about certain people's comments in this thread, including yours, Jouzinka, although the question isn't directed at any individual in particular, necessarily.

The Star Wars films (first three I mean) helped me to form my first and most basic concepts of what "great" art is capable of, what great art even means.  I'm not saying they qualify as great art, necessarily, but until I was old enough to pay attention to great books, those three movies formed the very epitome of Art with a capital-A.

Several people in this thread have admitted that the original trilogy struck them as either underwhelming or poor in quality.  To each his or her own, of course, and it's not a matter of any real importance, but I would really love to know a tiny bit more about what kinds of movies you consider "great" if the trilogy isn't in that category for you.

I'm asking, I suppose, because I imagine that your very definition of a "great" movie must be very different from mine, and that's totally fine, but it's also highly fascinating to me. 

In short, if the trilogy isn't any good in your opinion, then what is a good movie?  If you can give me just one or a handful of examples of movies you consider great, that would be more than sufficient to give a sense of your tastes, and I would appreciate the responses enormously.  No judgment or criticism, I just really want to know.

One caveat also:  it would help me a whole lot if you could name movies that are at least a decade old.  I know that may sound silly, but the truth is that I've missed most of the "hot," successful films of the last decade, for various personal reasons, so if you can only name recent films, it won't help me at all to understand your tastes.

Also BTW I'd be glad to hear from anyone who considers the original trilogy to be low-quality or mediocre films; the question isn't directed at any individuals in particular, but to anyone willing to answer frankly.  Thanks for any responses!

jouzinka

Quote from: Silverfyre on June 24, 2012, 09:44:34 PMI also still love you, jouzi.
<3 So glad to hear that. :-)

I would like to say beforehand that I would absolutely hate for this thread to become a bashing of anything or anyone. I thought a lot about why I didn't feel the way I thought I should about the original trilogy and I have to say that it's not in the tech stuff (effects or CGI). I am not distracted by those; after all, I am the person who watched un-enhanced Trek TOS without any problems. I can't really say that I think the movies are bad - they just didn't live up to the hype or my expectations based on that hype.

I will point out a few things that really stuck like a sore thumb for me in the spoiler lower, but I think that there's one thing that illustrates well how the movies failed to engage me: I kept thinking how thin the person who played C-3PO had to be and whether it was a man or a woman. It was a thought that kept creeping onto my mind and stayed there throughout the majority of the movies.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
- I was really dismayed when the rebels just accepted Luke without a question, armed him with a fighter that carried enough firepower to take down the entire squadron and let him go on a crucial assignment. Dire times? I do get that he already had a pilot-friend with the rebels, even though they likely haven't seen each other for a while. I get that he was Obi-Wan's. I get that he saved Leia. Still, if I wanted to infiltrate the rebels, once I caught her, saving the princess would be exactly the ploy I'd use. I think it was very unrealistic for him, Solo and Chewbacca to just come in and be immediately trusted.
- Unexplained non-verbal communication with other life forms. Chewbacca at least had mimics or tone of voice, but how come that R2-D2 was understood by others than C-3PO even when it didn't have the possibility to write on screens (very impractical when flying a fighter in just sub-light speed, in my opinion)? Its beeps did get some kind of expression, still... I thought that most of those that looked like Humans actually were aliens with telepathic abilities and was very surprised to find they weren't.
- Han Solo and Princess Leia. In IV he learned Luke loved her and he seemingly did all to alienate her from him and drive her right into Luke's arms with all those barbs about how she wanted him anyway and his cockiness... and it was seemingly working (she did kiss Luke, yay!). I actually thought that it was very brilliant of him to outsmart her like that and get her when he wanted her to be. Then he made his own move on her in V. Uhm, okay. Then in VI he told her that he would not get in the way if she loved Luke so much. At first I just wanted to scream: make up your damn mind! On a second thought... I would accept it if he did step aside from the beginning, but once he made his move on her, I think it was a very uncharacteristic thing for Solo to suggest, let alone do.
- The happy end.

I could probably go on - like why did R2-D2 have only beeps, when C-3PO was apparently able to make the conversion of the communication into a talk and R2-D2 on the other hand could understand what C-3PO replied, why couldn't R2-D2 speak? Of course, it would make C-3PO largely redundant, but it was one of the things that I just found logically odd. I'm not certain, however, when I would turn into nitpicking, nor where would my perception of the tech become way too skewed by today's possibilities, so I'll just stop. ;D All in all, I think I can draw a good parallel with Avatar - it looks good (fabulous even), but the story(telling) kinda limps behind the execution. Some things were just too painfully obvious. Like C-3PO being the comic relief. I get that it's needed, but I would have liked for him to be actually a bit more useful, especially for a droid.

My opinion. ;D
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vin26m

#33
This is the guy who played C-3P0.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Daniels

C-3P0 was a protocol droid.  His function was to communicate with pretty much anything, human, alien or robot.

R2-D2 was an astromech droid.  His function was to fix and maintain machines, including getting stuck into a port in a fighter.  They usually don't communicate with humans and aliens.  They usually just do what they're told.  R2-D2 was always in a unique situation of constantly having to deal with humans and aliens.  Mostly he was just comic relief.


Shjade

Regarding communication: you don't have to be able to reproduce a language to learn it. Not everyone knew them all, either. In the first movie only C-3PO understands R2-D2; it's only in the later movies that Luke (who has spent a considerable amount of time hanging around with R2 by that point) can start to respond directly the little droid's beeping, as I recall. Similarly, pretty much only C-3PO and Han can understand Chewie's RAANRROOONing, at least at first. I can't remember if the others understand him later or still need interpreting.
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rick957

#35
I hope my harsh words about the later trilogy didn't bother anyone.  Others here had already heaped some scorn on them before I added my voice to theirs.

I think it's possible and normal and healthy for people to dislike works of art or pieces of entertainment; actually I think it's okay to detest certain artworks or entertainments, as long as the distaste is not directed at any human being, but rather at a piece of work created by many people whom one has never met and never interacts with in daily life.  Just IMO.  I'm not one of those people -- not to criticize them, just to say -- I'm not one of those people who feels that hating a movie is somehow the same thing as hating the filmmakers or hating the people who love that same movie.  One of my best friends loves the LOTR movies to death, and I hate them just as passionately, and that doesn't diminish the friendship in the slightest.

Just wanted to clarify my take on such things, because I hate hurting anyone's feelings, especially while talking about something as unimportant in the grand scheme of things as movies.

Before I go, I enjoyed the explanation of the things you didn't like about Star Wars, Jouzinka.  You have every right to your response to the movies, just as I have every right to mine, and I enjoy hearing about the responses of a person who felt differently towards the films than I do.  Still, I would like to point out why certain things you mentioned as problematic seemed acceptable to me.  This is only for the purposes of mutual amusement, it's not criticism of any sort, or personal attack, or even personal defense.  I know people are often sensitive about opinions of any kind being expressed, so anyway.  Just for fun, some points:
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Quote- I was really dismayed when the rebels just accepted Luke without a question, armed him with a fighter that carried enough firepower to take down the entire squadron and let him go on a crucial assignment. Dire times? I do get that he already had a pilot-friend with the rebels, even though they likely haven't seen each other for a while. I get that he was Obi-Wan's. I get that he saved Leia. Still, if I wanted to infiltrate the rebels, once I caught her, saving the princess would be exactly the ploy I'd use. I think it was very unrealistic for him, Solo and Chewbacca to just come in and be immediately trusted.
It seems that you are the kind of person who weighs plot logic as you watch a story.  That's very normal and good to do, I think; I do it too, since plot logic or the lack thereof can undermine a good story, or make a bad story worse.  The reason that some people (including me) didn't object to this particular point you mentioned is because the Rebels in the first film are supposed to be a ragtag bunch of revolutionaries getting by on a shoestring budget, waging guerilla war against a universe-spanning Empire; in other words, this is a David-versus-Goliath thing, so the fact they'll take any help they can get underscores their level of desperation and makes their eventual triumph additionally impressive.  The Rebels just had their base planet Alderaan obliterated, along with much of their forces and leaders, presumably (even Leia's family, or parts of it at least), so the attack on the Death Star is their "Custer's Last Stand," or their Alamo; except they win, I mean.  :)
Quote- Unexplained non-verbal communication with other life forms. Chewbacca at least had mimics or tone of voice, but how come that R2-D2 was understood by others than C-3PO even when it didn't have the possibility to write on screens (very impractical when flying a fighter in just sub-light speed, in my opinion)? Its beeps did get some kind of expression, still... I thought that most of those that looked like Humans actually were aliens with telepathic abilities and was very surprised to find they weren't.
Wow that never would have occurred to me, and I can imagine what you're talking about.  Then again, we do see R2's words on the screen in front of Luke, at least once or twice, I think, as he flies his fighter.  I also assumed he understood some of R2's language from working with such droids throughout his life, growing up on the farm.  I don't recall other characters besides Luke and Threepio understanding R2's communication except in very vague, general ways.

Okay, I'll stop there because I don't know if you enjoy this kind of back-and-forth, so I don't want to overdo it, in case it's something you find annoying.  Sorry if you do!  It's my idea of fun sometimes.  :)

I didn't know R2 was an astromech anything, darnit, and I've watched those movies dozens of times!  *pouts*  I'm just being silly, I know there's all kinds of extra info about R2 outside of the movies, plus I never pay attention to those kinds of details in movies.  I just thought it was funny that people know so much stuff about Star Wars that I have no earthly idea about.  :)

Silverfyre

The R-2 units actually do maintain a lot of contact with droids and humans, as well as other species found in the Star Wars universe.  Many pilots developed friendly relationships with their astromechs since they were often their co-pilots and a vital part of their ship's "crew".  Binary is the language of droids such as R-2 and it known canonically by quite a few characters.  It, of course, has a fantastical element to it but consider the source material: it's a space opera.  Not everything is going to line up as "logical" or realistically.


jouzinka

I actually think that R2 was an intelligent, if not a sentient, being, much like 3PO. :-) Like at the beginning of IV when the droids were lined up for Luke and his uncle and Luke's uncle chose the other droid? I don't think it was a chance that that particular droid short-circuited to death immediately after. ;D Or when R2 asked Luke whether the planet under was safe for droids, which makes even less sense that it didn't have a voice.
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Silverfyre

He does possess a similar type of droid "brain" that allows for independent thinking and learning, all within his programing perimeters of course!

/nerd


Geeklet

Well, coming from information obtained from other things in the Star Wars universe, droids like R2 would routinely get their memory wiped so they would be more obedient machines. And when that doesn't happen, well, they start to develop their own little personalities, just like R2.

Silverfyre

Mmmhmm.  Most droids got those memory wipes because they want to keep the metal man down!  Up with AIs!


SinXAzgard21

Since we are on the subject of R2....

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Chris Brady

Quote from: Geeklet on June 25, 2012, 01:19:58 PM
Well, coming from information obtained from other things in the Star Wars universe, droids like R2 would routinely get their memory wiped so they would be more obedient machines. And when that doesn't happen, well, they start to develop their own little personalities, just like R2.

Also, the reason for memory wipes is due to interface issues that can crop up if you let the Astromech's get a personality.  They'll get 'used' to working with a certain interface (let's say a Star Fighter) and work REALLY well with it, but if you upgrade or change the fighter, the connection may not be so smooth, or may not even work.
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Will

Quote from: Chris Brady on June 26, 2012, 06:19:54 PM
Also, the reason for memory wipes is due to interface issues that can crop up if you let the Astromech's get a personality.  They'll get 'used' to working with a certain interface (let's say a Star Fighter) and work REALLY well with it, but if you upgrade or change the fighter, the connection may not be so smooth, or may not even work.

To be fair, most of that information is only hinted at (if that!) in the films themselves.  I'm not sure I buy that Lucas thought through all of that background stuff at the time.  I don't have that much faith in him. 

I think fans filled in a lot of the gaps with their own imaginations, and that's one of the reasons people enjoyed it so much.  And one of the reasons that there's so much expanded universe material.  TONS of novels, comic books, video games, on and on and on.  It's a compelling setting.  There are all these open-ended, vague references in the movies, about planets, people, events, none of which we get to see.  Han Solo talking about the "bounty hunter we ran into back on Ord Mantell?"  Damn, I wanted to know what that was all about.  And so did a lot of other people, so eventually it got fleshed out in secondary sources.  I know, lots of franchises inspire fanfiction.  But Star Wars goes way beyond that.  This stuff sells.
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Chris Brady

Quote from: Will on June 26, 2012, 08:07:25 PM
To be fair, most of that information is only hinted at (if that!) in the films themselves.  I'm not sure I buy that Lucas thought through all of that background stuff at the time.  I don't have that much faith in him. 

I think fans filled in a lot of the gaps with their own imaginations, and that's one of the reasons people enjoyed it so much.  And one of the reasons that there's so much expanded universe material.  TONS of novels, comic books, video games, on and on and on.  It's a compelling setting.  There are all these open-ended, vague references in the movies, about planets, people, events, none of which we get to see.  Han Solo talking about the "bounty hunter we ran into back on Ord Mantell?"  Damn, I wanted to know what that was all about.  And so did a lot of other people, so eventually it got fleshed out in secondary sources.  I know, lots of franchises inspire fanfiction.  But Star Wars goes way beyond that.  This stuff sells.

I got that from both the older trilogies and some of the Expanded Universe novels.  Which is all Canon, as long as it doesn't contradict the movies.  According to Lucas.
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rick957

QuoteThis stuff sells.

It certainly does.  Now, here's a really quick side question for all the hardcore SW fans that seem to be around here:  do you recall the one and only time period since the release of Ep IV in which Star Wars merch took a nosedive in sales, and the fandom surrounding the movies seemed to be in danger of fizzling out?

Even during the period that I'm talking about, there were shitloads of hardcore fans out there, and plenty of people were still watching and enjoying the films on video, but the overall popularity of the movies sank so low that Marvel had to cancel the original Star Wars comic book due to lack of interest, and unless I'm mistaken, that was also a time period in which the toy figurines line came to a temporary halt.  This was several years after Ep VI, and long long before the latter trilogy or the special edition re-releases.

I find it intriguing that such a decline in popularity ever occurred, because the health of SW fandom since then has stayed at a fever pitch, or at least at a high enough level to support godawful amounts of merchandise, books, comics, toys, games, websites, etc. ad infinitum.  What happened to cause that momentary nosedive, and what turned the trend around?  If you have an answer for either of those questions, I would love to hear it, because I don't.

Will

#46
Quote from: Chris Brady on June 26, 2012, 08:35:39 PM
I got that from both the older trilogies and some of the Expanded Universe novels.  Which is all Canon, as long as it doesn't contradict the movies.  According to Lucas.

Right.  But you can't expect anyone who's only seen the movies to know most of that, if it came from novels.  Even in the original trilogy, there's not really much in the way of explanation.  Just Uncle Owen talking about "getting that droid's memory wiped" or whatever.  He doesn't bother to say why it's important.

My point is, I can understand why some people would watch the movies and say they don't really get it.  There are a lot of holes in the setting.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Chris Brady

Quote from: Will on June 26, 2012, 09:25:51 PM
Right.  But you can't expect anyone who's only seen the movies to know most of that, if it came from novels.  Even in the original trilogy, there's not really much in the way of explanation.  Just Uncle Owen talking about "getting that droid's memory wiped" or whatever.  He doesn't bother to say why it's important.

My point is, I can understand why some people would watch the movies and say they don't really get it.  There are a lot of holes in the setting.

Oh I get completely what you're saying.  It's why I say the 'promise of the setting' is what intrigues me, there's a lot you can take or leave from it.  Personally, I love that about Star Wars, but I fully understand why it wouldn't appeal to everyone.

Also note, I have not even teasingly mentioned Jouzi's disconnect with the movies and/or setting.  It's her take, and her opinion.  If she sees the promise, she sees it.  If she doesn't, she doesn't.  It's neither positive nor negative.
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So I make a A&A thread but do I put it here?  No.  Of course not.

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Aidonsious

Quote from: jouzinka on June 16, 2012, 12:48:04 PM
Okay, so... exactly as the title says.  :-[

Despite me being a bit of a geek, Star Wars are one of the things that I haven't yet watched. I used to have a reflex of "my bro likes -> hate it." It has since changed, but I did miss on a lot of good stuff and Star Wars is one of the things.

Only now there's seven six movies. ::) My brother-in-law-to-be has them all and I am trustworthy enough to be allowed to borrow them from him, but my question remains - how should I watch it? Should I watch all the prequels and then the "old" movies or should I watch it chronologically as they were filmed?

Advice please?  :-[

It all depends on if you've seen them yet or not...from the sound of it you have. In that case, I recommend....4,5,6 and than watch 1,2,3.

If you haven't or do not remember the story, I recommend 1,2,3,4,5,6.



jouzinka

Quote from: Chris Brady on June 27, 2012, 12:08:59 AMAlso note, I have not even teasingly mentioned Jouzi's disconnect with the movies and/or setting.  It's her take, and her opinion.  If she sees the promise, she sees it.  If she doesn't, she doesn't.  It's neither positive nor negative.
I see possibilities behind every word and move. It's the one thing that ASOIAF taught me really well. XD That said, I do think that a work, regardless whether a book or movie or whatever, needs continuity and certain cohesion - a nod that this or that isn't just a deus-ex-machina or "because it is so." ;) For me personally, Luke's initial without-a-question involvement with the Rebels will be a thing I will probably growl about for a long time. :-)

Quote from: Aidonsious on June 27, 2012, 08:01:07 AM
It all depends on if you've seen them yet or not...from the sound of it you have. In that case, I recommend....4,5,6 and than watch 1,2,3.

If you haven't or do not remember the story, I recommend 1,2,3,4,5,6.
I watched them IV, V, VI closely after each other, then gave myself a pause, then watched I, II, III, now I'm debating watching IV, V, VI again, sort of back-to-back. ;)
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