At What Point Does A Protest Become A Riot?

[RedPhoenix]

As a reminder, speaking of looting, we looted this entire fucking continent.

[Remiel]

La dame en noir and Tmii3,

Thank you for speaking up.

We are listening.

[Fox Lokison]

As a reminder, speaking of looting, we looted this entire fucking continent.

There's a good video that was made in response to Trump by some Native artists, here. I wanna say around 1:56, they included a phone call made by one of the protesters to the government (I believe, it's unclear) asking if they could get help and who to go to when the police were the ones attacking them. I keep thinking of it in the current situation. Your post reminds me of it, Red. It's a graphic video, as a warning. Definitely no holds barred in talking about this.

[Darkcide]

This past weekend was the 99th anniversary of the Tulsa Massacre. I've seen people try to refer to it as a race riot, it was not. But nearly every attempt by Black Americans to either empower our communities, speak out against our oppression or even view ourselves in a positive light is met with derision, apathy or it is just flat out undermined by the powers that be. Systematic racism is woven into the fabric of this country. It is so entrenched that when you criticize racism, the talking heads claim you're criticizing this country. This past week I just really think to myself, "These motherfuckers really should have listened to Kaepernick." Well, this is what you get.

This tipping point was inevitable. People used to think I was crazy in highschool when I would say as much. My parents were born in 47 and 50 respectively. The Civil Rights Movement did make things better in a lot of ways, but it wasn't enough. Now when you have the internet and social media? The entire world is seeing the United States for what it really is. There has always been two Americas. People cannot be willfully ignorant anymore, and they can choose to either be on the right side or the wrong side of history. I've done a whole lot of cleanup across my social media lists. I've had to talk to my nephews as well as my nieces about what all this means. When my father has to tell me as a kid how to deal with police to avoid being murdered, it means the systems in place in this country are broken. When I share a post on Facebook because I've had cops point a gun in my face, it means all of it is broken.

Systematic racism in this country needs to be treated like cancer. It means all of us need to stay angry. It means all of us cannot let up for a single second. I've long been a proponent of policing the police, because a lot of those people that wear a badge? Should not. Are all cops cunts? No. But a person cannot be a good cop if they're complicit in cover-ups and obstruction in regards to holding other cops accountable. The ones engaging in the brutality are evil, and the ones who are doing absolutely nothing and protecting them, are bad cops. When a culture is in place that prioritizes protecting these motherfuckers as opposed to serving justice, it means that culture is corrosive.

I've been called an 'angry black man' my entire life. James Baldwin said, "To be a negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all the time." I have been angry most my life because I know it should not be like this, and because all of this bullshit being my life and that just being the way it is, is absolutely fucked up. BUT the thing that really gets under my skin is the lengths people have gone to to gaslight people that look like me.

We are at a tipping point here. And people really should have listened to Kaepernick. It is only going to get uglier before it gets better.

[RedPhoenix]

Thank you for speaking Darkcide. I know it isn't easy. And you're right, that people didn't listen when the message was given quietly and respectfully (and didn't just not listen, called the messenger a traitor and a blackballed him) are the reason it has to be shouted through a bullhorn now.

Found this very powerful, would ask people who want to understand this to watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb9_qGOa9Go&feature=youtu.be

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre

^ For those who don't know the history she references.

[la dame en noir]

This past weekend was the 99th anniversary of the Tulsa Massacre. I've seen people try to refer to it as a race riot, it was not. But nearly every attempt by Black Americans to either empower our communities, speak out against our oppression or even view ourselves in a positive light is met with derision, apathy or it is just flat out undermined by the powers that be. Systematic racism is woven into the fabric of this country. It is so entrenched that when you criticize racism, the talking heads claim you're criticizing this country. This past week I just really think to myself, "These motherfuckers really should have listened to Kaepernick." Well, this is what you get.

This tipping point was inevitable. People used to think I was crazy in highschool when I would say as much. My parents were born in 47 and 50 respectively. The Civil Rights Movement did make things better in a lot of ways, but it wasn't enough. Now when you have the internet and social media? The entire world is seeing the United States for what it really is. There has always been two Americas. People cannot be willfully ignorant anymore, and they can choose to either be on the right side or the wrong side of history. I've done a whole lot of cleanup across my social media lists. I've had to talk to my nephews as well as my nieces about what all this means. When my father has to tell me as a kid how to deal with police to avoid being murdered, it means the systems in place in this country are broken. When I share a post on Facebook because I've had cops point a gun in my face, it means all of it is broken.

Systematic racism in this country needs to be treated like cancer. It means all of us need to stay angry. It means all of us cannot let up for a single second. I've long been a proponent of policing the police, because a lot of those people that wear a badge? Should not. Are all cops cunts? No. But a person cannot be a good cop if they're complicit in cover-ups and obstruction in regards to holding other cops accountable. The ones engaging in the brutality are evil, and the ones who are doing absolutely nothing and protecting them, are bad cops. When a culture is in place that prioritizes protecting these motherfuckers as opposed to serving justice, it means that culture is corrosive.

I've been called an 'angry black man' my entire life. James Baldwin said, "To be a negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all the time." I have been angry most my life because I know it should not be like this, and because all of this bullshit being my life and that just being the way it is, is absolutely fucked up. BUT the thing that really gets under my skin is the lengths people have gone to to gaslight people that look like me.

We are at a tipping point here. And people really should have listened to Kaepernick. It is only going to get uglier before it gets better.

lord have mercy, this right here reminded me of John Boyega speaking at a protest.

Thanks, I'm officially in love lol

[Twisted Crow]

Reading more and more about these events has made me feverish, though I feel it is important for me to understand why this continues to happen. It has also taught me a lot about myself that has been rather refreshing.

In the past, I would have resentment about the big talk on this matter because it easily gets lost in lashing, accusations and what have you. I get frustrated that nothing ever gets done. Another reason why I had always liked Darryl Davis, in general.

I am mainly in the 'lives over property' camp. Though, I do understand the fear in regards to the relationship with what destruction could cause. Still. Life is life. I can rebuild a bridge, I cannot bring back life from death. There is just no fix for that.

A problem I fear is that we have let this hit critical mass. Too many glib excuses like "resisting arrest", or other classic ones. It has made me realize that I need to be precise on how to drive at an ideal goal with conversations related to these problems. Particularly on the subjects of police brutality, white privilege, et. al.

I feel that I have had a confused stance for a while. Not so much where I stand. But what I can do about it.

What I have reasoned is this: First, continue to educate myself on the matter. Equip myself mentally. I have realized after some time that it is not about grinding myself down with 'white guilt' or anything like that. That does no favors to me, to black people or anyone. I feel that maybe, the answer is to not tear myself down... but to help build others up in a common cause. Not shift blame, not try to have us 'hug it out and forget about the problem'. But to join hand in hand and stand as a comrade. Together, so that we might hold a system responsible and maybe try to fix it.

But the first step, aside from staying healthy and alive... educating myself even further. Thinking before I speak.  :-\

[TheGlyphstone]

But the first step, aside from staying healthy and alive... educating myself even further. Thinking before I speak.  :-\

This. Too much this. We live in a world where too many people are content to settle for the soundbites they're fed by TV news or talk radio, instead of going the extra mile and making informed opinions. A society that does not take advantage of its freedoms will see them atrophy into nothing.

[AzureRain]

If anyone is interested...

Maybe years ago, Harvard created an actual test for bias. The test works by seeing how strongly you associate “positive things” with certain groups of people. I’ve taken the test a number of times, and it’s been informative for me to acknowledge my own biases so I can focus on changing them.

Here is the test: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

Takes under 10 minutes, and you can do it on your smartphone too! There are separate tests for racial, gender, LGBT, religious, weight and more biases.

[Fox Lokison]

This. Too much this. We live in a world where too many people are content to settle for the soundbites they're fed by TV news or talk radio, instead of going the extra mile and making informed opinions. A society that does not take advantage of its freedoms will see them atrophy into nothing.

My cousin gets her political opinions from 30 second videos on tiktok and instagram, and they'll entirely change her stance on something. She'll swing from pole to pole in her belief system because she was told it. If you tell her you are going to research before agreeing, she'll get mad. And if your research has more viewpoints than initially offered, or raises questions, she'll double down and insist the source she heard her misinformation from was reliable, so you can just shut up, basically. And she's far from the only person I know who is like that. It terrifies me. It really does. Especially because she can vote, yet can have her entire worldview changed with no evidence in minutes, because she liked the person saying it. That's not just an issue with her generation either. My mom and I fought my grandpa tooth and nail because he believed that if they said it on TV, it had to be true, and he liked the newscasters. Hell, factor in the paradoxical relationship and you get people acting like you've attacked their friend for suggesting this soundbyte is misinformed. Honestly, it worries me. We do have a tool at our fingertips that has vast potential to educate us and broaden our horizons, but lack the social context and education system to use it to full potential. And with the prevelance of misinformation on the internet and in our media, it's really not something we can afford to skim past.

As a slightly relates aside, I did find where the bloodthirsty mobs comments are coming from. Mike Pence's ads on Facebook. That's where I've seen it now.

[Twisted Crow]

I stay the Green Hell away from Facebook for many reasons, now. One of which including just about everything mentioned, already.

[Fox Lokison]

My earlier comment should say "parasocial relationship", autocorrect thinks it knows things.

Honestly if I didn't use FB to stay connected with a select few people, and for work, I'd probably ditch it altogether. As is, I have to take loooong breaks from it and all other social media at points. It absorbs you in a different mindset, and dulls your ability to question things. That's my experience anyway.

[Remiel]

My cousin gets her political opinions from 30 second videos on tiktok and instagram, and they'll entirely change her stance on something. She'll swing from pole to pole in her belief system because she was told it. If you tell her you are going to research before agreeing, she'll get mad. And if your research has more viewpoints than initially offered, or raises questions, she'll double down and insist the source she heard her misinformation from was reliable, so you can just shut up, basically. And she's far from the only person I know who is like that. It terrifies me. It really does.

Not to derail the topic, but that is the very definition of cognitive dissonance.  And unfortunately, it seems to be a defining human quality--we all have it to a greater or lesser extent.  Once you are emotionally invested in an opinion, all the facts and data in the world won't change your mind.  In fact, research has shown that being shown evidence that they are wrong will only make most people double down on their original opinion.

But anyway.

[Vekseid]

This tipping point was inevitable. People used to think I was crazy in highschool when I would say as much. My parents were born in 47 and 50 respectively. The Civil Rights Movement did make things better in a lot of ways, but it wasn't enough. Now when you have the internet and social media? The entire world is seeing the United States for what it really is. There has always been two Americas. People cannot be willfully ignorant anymore, and they can choose to either be on the right side or the wrong side of history. I've done a whole lot of cleanup across my social media lists. I've had to talk to my nephews as well as my nieces about what all this means. When my father has to tell me as a kid how to deal with police to avoid being murdered, it means the systems in place in this country are broken. When I share a post on Facebook because I've had cops point a gun in my face, it means all of it is broken.

Strange, we were talking about a sense of something fundamentally wrong when I was in high school, building to a head. There's always been a sense in my social circles that things were fucked. Even if from our perspective was only seen as a facet of it. A tool for certain interests to hold power.

Make no mistake, this isn't a US only problem. The protests aren't rocking the UK and other countries just because of solidarity. A very early fling of mine was a Brazilian girl living in Sweden. She'd pass for white in most of the US.

Not in Sweden.

Have had plenty of Scandinavian acquaintances tell me certain other people weren't white.

Of course, according to an African Supremacist, because I can tan okay, I am in fact part black. One of my ancestors was probably a slave, but I didn't get my ability to tan from that side of the family.

Systematic racism in this country needs to be treated like cancer. It means all of us need to stay angry. It means all of us cannot let up for a single second. I've long been a proponent of policing the police, because a lot of those people that wear a badge? Should not. Are all cops cunts? No. But a person cannot be a good cop if they're complicit in cover-ups and obstruction in regards to holding other cops accountable. The ones engaging in the brutality are evil, and the ones who are doing absolutely nothing and protecting them, are bad cops. When a culture is in place that prioritizes protecting these motherfuckers as opposed to serving justice, it means that culture is corrosive.

As I tried to sympathetically explain to one of our retired LEO members, the saying is one bad apple spoils the entire bunch, not that the rest of the bunch is good and will stay that way.

I'm for an entire independent, co-equal investigative branch of government, personally. On equal footing with the other three branches. This would be on top of police being accountable to their own state investigative branches, of course. Dual chains of authority work well for mechanisms like this - if one gets corrupted the other can expose both.

We are at a tipping point here. And people really should have listened to Kaepernick. It is only going to get uglier before it gets better.

If the people involved were of a mind to listen to Kaepernick, Kaepernick wouldn't have had cause to protest in the first place.

[Skynet]

I haven't really ahd cause to post in this thread, partly on account that anything I could say has been said much better than others. But I did find a good video to share on the matter (link instead of direct as cannot verify ages of everyone in a crowd).

Vox: Protests Aren't What They Look Like On TV

[Darkcide]

lord have mercy, this right here reminded me of John Boyega speaking at a protest.

Thanks, I'm officially in love lol

Lol. John Boyega has been going pretty hard.

Strange, we were talking about a sense of something fundamentally wrong when I was in high school, building to a head. There's always been a sense in my social circles that things were fucked. Even if from our perspective was only seen as a facet of it. A tool for certain interests to hold power.

Make no mistake, this isn't a US only problem. The protests aren't rocking the UK and other countries just because of solidarity. A very early fling of mine was a Brazilian girl living in Sweden. She'd pass for white in most of the US.

Not in Sweden.

Have had plenty of Scandinavian acquaintances tell me certain other people weren't white.

Of course, according to an African Supremacist, because I can tan okay, I am in fact part black. One of my ancestors was probably a slave, but I didn't get my ability to tan from that side of the family.

As I tried to sympathetically explain to one of our retired LEO members, the saying is one bad apple spoils the entire bunch, not that the rest of the bunch is good and will stay that way.

I'm for an entire independent, co-equal investigative branch of government, personally. On equal footing with the other three branches. This would be on top of police being accountable to their own state investigative branches, of course. Dual chains of authority work well for mechanisms like this - if one gets corrupted the other can expose both.

If the people involved were of a mind to listen to Kaepernick, Kaepernick wouldn't have had cause to protest in the first place.

Oh this paradigm shift is definitely far bigger than what happens in America. The world as a whole is changing more quickly than the people who have made it a hellscape would like it to. They will fight tooth and nail to keep things the way they are. But change is inevitable.

That's an interesting idea as far as law enforcement. I know I do not think law enforcement should be militarized. I think that police have a lot of work to do to earn the trust of marginalized communities and that they should be beholden to the communities that they work in If said cops live in or near those communities? That is even better, they understand them then. There absolutely needs to be more accountability however, they need to be better trained, and they need better screening processes in place. It should not be as easy as it is to become a cop.

[Twisted Crow]

I really should shut up but... on one hand, as an ex-soldier, myself? I can somewhat understand the logic in putting our police through some of the disciplinary regimen that we had to go through.

Some of us weren't all clean-handed, mind you. Just as you might find bad eggs in local law enforcement, you can find a bad soldier in the ranks. It's just inevitable. But most of us, I'd wager (from personal experience, mainly), have better trigger discipline than your average beat cop.

That being said... the thought of turning our police into a 'Junior Army' on it's own doesn't sit well with me for a number of reasons.

That's all I can think to contribute that is worth anything I. That discussion, though.  :-\

[Twisted Crow]

Oh, and one could argue that they already are a junior army. And... I can't say I have any retort to that sentiment, sadly. *shrug*

I wouldn't blame people for thinking or feeling that way, that is for sure.

[Skynet]

I really should shut up but... on one hand, as an ex-soldier, myself? I can somewhat understand the logic in putting our police through some of the disciplinary regimen that we had to go through.

Some of us weren't all clean-handed, mind you. Just as you might find bad eggs in local law enforcement, you can find a bad soldier in the ranks. It's just inevitable. But most of us, I'd wager (from personal experience, mainly), have better trigger discipline than your average beat cop.

That being said... the thought of turning our police into a 'Junior Army' on it's own doesn't sit well with me for a number of reasons.

That's all I can think to contribute that is worth anything I. That discussion, though.  :-\

There was a scandal several years ago when an ex-Army guy offered training courses for Law Enforcement to instinctually train them to kill on reflex.

As far as I know he's still having events booked.

[TheGlyphstone]

I think that, in part, is one of the contributing factors to the problem. After 9/11, the rush to over-fun police and protect against terrorists led to the police departments being able to buy all sorts of military-grade or near-military-grade equipment. APCs, full-auto rifles, body armor, helicopters...the list goes on and on, giving us cops who have military weapons and materiel without military discipline and training - they have their shiny expensive toys, and so there's an impulse to use them so spending the money was justified.

[Twisted Crow]

There was a scandal several years ago when an ex-Army guy offered training courses for Law Enforcement to instinctually train them to kill on reflex.

As far as I know he's still having events booked.

Whoa. Yeah, that isn't quite what I had in mind, but I had somewhat suspected that stuff like this could have been happening. But this is a bad egg in a position he clearly shouldn't be in.

I... can't discuss too much about my own operations and time in the service here for various reasons, but... I was always taught to keep my finger off the trigger and always maintain muzzle awareness. There can always be innocent civilians in an area we might otherwise treat as potentially hostile. Civilians were off-limits, obviously. I took that whole rules of engagement thing seriously, though. *shrug*

But... wow. That's some chilling shit, though.

[Darkcide]

Whoa. Yeah, that isn't quite what I had in mind, but I had somewhat suspected that stuff like this could have been happening. But this is a bad egg in a position he clearly shouldn't be in.

I... can't discuss too much about my own operations and time in the service here for various reasons, but... I was always taught to keep my finger off the trigger and always maintain muzzle awareness. There can always be innocent civilians in an area we might otherwise treat as potentially hostile. Civilians were off-limits, obviously. I took that whole rules of engagement thing seriously, though. *shrug*

But... wow. That's some chilling shit, though.

This piece. The training I am suggesting is so we don't get all these cases of them 'fearing for their lives.' Like a cop can point a gun in my face, and panic. I am on the business end of said gun, and I have to remain calm? They need to be trained to better deescalate as well. Military absolutely has better trigger discipline, and a lot of cops view themselves as a junior army. They view themselves as combatants, and people that look like me? As essentially being enemy combatants. When you have a bunch of skittish assholes with guns viewing the neighborhoods they police as enemy territory? You wind up with a startling lack of accountability, and officers that are very willing to abuse their authority.

[Fox Lokison]

People we know are vanishing. Straight up vanishing. They re last seen at protests and then not heard from again. Those friends of my cousin that got arrested have just vanished. And they're not the only ones. They're not finding them in the inmate system, they're seemingly not booked, but not anywhere outside a cell that we can find.... And it's not just here. I'm hearing similar stories from the PNW. Last seen at protests, and just radio silent from there on out. Talk of unmarked vans, though how true that is, I don't know. It's just a lot of jumbled info and missing people. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'm worried.

[AzureRain]

People we know are vanishing. Straight up vanishing. They re last seen at protests and then not heard from again. Those friends of my cousin that got arrested have just vanished. And they're not the only ones. They're not finding them in the inmate system, they're seemingly not booked, but not anywhere outside a cell that we can find.... And it's not just here. I'm hearing similar stories from the PNW. Last seen at protests, and just radio silent from there on out. Talk of unmarked vans, though how true that is, I don't know. It's just a lot of jumbled info and missing people. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'm worried.

I have also seen a lot of very worrisome personal accounts of people’s experiences at protests, where peaceful protesters have been assaulted and tear gassed by the very people who are supposed to be protecting them. Also had the misfortune of clicking on a video which is widely circulating now, where police shove over an elderly man, causing him to pass out and bleed all over the concrete below.. and the police just walk by. From what I’ve seen, it does seem like a great majority of the violence is coming from police (and a bit of it from non-POC escalating things, as well), though I know social media does not always portray an accurate picture of what is actually going on. Still, I am worried and disgusted.

My social media has also been filled with posts about defunding the police because of all the above. I’ve never seen this point of view before, and I have no idea what a future without police would look like. But my knowledge of the Stanford prison experiments does make me stop and think.  I’m curious if anyone can speak to this?

[Fox Lokison]

Last we heard, they were sitting after a protest waiting for a ride. Signs with them, not waving them, just there. The moment curfew struck, the cops formed a wall, and moved in. Tear gas, blunt weapons, no idea if they used rubber bullets... live fire was authorized in Seattle I believe, too. But only one of the people in that group we know got away. And they had to RUN. The police locked everyone in with a human wall and descended on them. They were peaceful and calm before. It just exploded. Now they're missing. Honestly, I'm fucking sick and tired of this and I'm tired of the goddamn propaganda about "murderous mobs" and "violent antifa" I'm seeing. They were fucking college students exercising their free speech and now they're fucking gone. People are being let go from jobs that we know because they're not white, I know at least one military base cop who got paid leave for his safety because he's not white and open carries a gun at work, and his bosses are worried for HIS safety with the regular cops... this country is on fire. And the ones that should be putting it out are pouring gasoline.

This is how revolutions and civil wars happen. When people have little to lose and everything to gain. Frankly, rioting is likely just the beginning if this continues. People are angry. And they have every right to be.