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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 249648 times)

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3650 on: June 07, 2021, 11:07:22 pm »


3. Actually the magic number for blast is above 6, but when you go above 10 things just get even worse because of how the dice rolls start working. That is why I found stopping at 9 to be the most effective at least just from reading over the rules. Also I went with the Celestians because of the bodyguard rules... and the fact they are more effective than the cannon fodder regular sisters.

4. Is the Imagefier bad in the new book, because I planned to combine it with the Stratagem to get double abilities off it. 

5. Since when did Exorcist get bad? I mean they are the best anti-tank at long range for the sisters... unless in the new book they have been nerfed.

Also I changed the list to only one Exorcist and one Archoite and also added a Hosptolier.

Well if the Retrabutioner lost the move and shoot then yeah I am glad I dropped them for the moment. My list is current able to changed... because I have to finish my base sister squads of five... and yeah... I am the type who does all models in each kit so that is probably going to equal out to 30 models over all. With 15 I am not going to use at the moment XD.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3651 on: June 08, 2021, 07:21:04 am »
According to the core rulebook, blast weapons do a minimum of three attacks against units with 6+ models, and maximum number of attacks against units with 11+ models. So the magic numbers are 5 and 10 respectively.

Celestians may fight better (they shoot the same and have the same access to special/heavy weapons) but they don't have Objective Secured. Objective Secured wins games, bodyguard rule is only really relevant if you don't have enough troops, which you would have if you took more Objective Secured troops.  But your mileage may vary.

Imagifier's ignore -1 AP ability got changed to -1 to wound against weapons of S3 or less, which is mindbogglingly useless. The Deny the Witch ability got changed to reroll advances and charges, while the +1 Str option remains, but a bit ehh since battle sisters and celestians outside of Bloody Rose don't really hit that well. Furthermore, to take two abilities, you now have to take a relic, which means that now instead of costing 1CP, it now costs 1CP and one of your relic slots. She's just not what she used to be.

Exorcist didn't get CORE so no rerolls, became T7, lost an AP for its main gun, lost a wound. It did go down by 30 points and can now fire indirect for 2CP, which is too expensive to spam. I think one exorcist is fine but heavy support is a surprisingly crowded slot for sisters.

Retributors also lost their +12" range strat. However, I think they're still good because four multimeltas hitting on 4+ with rerolls of one and miracle dice support, will still hit extremely hard. They're just no longer the undisputed best antitank unit in the game.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3652 on: June 08, 2021, 03:19:15 pm »
Wouldn't the Exorcist reroll come from a Canonesss using her abilities near them? I am not sure what CORE means... if you could please explain?

It almost seems like it would be better to take a Immolator or a few Rhinos over the Exorcist at this point :( A lot of the sisters stuff seems to have so horribly nerfed I am no longer sure what to pick. 

Also is the Objective Secured a new rule for Battle Sisters Squards... I didn't see anywhere on their actual stat sheet so is that in the new book?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 03:32:47 pm by Andol »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3653 on: June 08, 2021, 03:26:51 pm »
Eigth edition introduced the idea of units having specific keywords that enable them to get certain buffs from special elite & HQ units. Like a SM captain's re-roll 1's to hit. but that captain's aura only affects other SM units who are part of his chapter.

9th edition took this a step farther and made it so that most aura's only affect 'CORE' units instead of every unit in an army. Core is a new keyword that usually only applies to units that are basic vehicles and troops. things considered the core foundation of that given faction's army. To use space marines again as an example, Tactical marines and dreadnoughts are both core units considered integral to most army compositions. But Terminators and predator tanks are not core, and thus do not benefit from a captain's or lieutenant's re-roll auras by default.

This was to try and prevent situations where you would have 3 predator tanks and a devastator squad all parked in one corner of the map, all sorrounding a Captain and a lieutenant letting them re-roll all their 1's. or similar situations with other units. It was common with nearly any faction to see something similar. Even drukhari had the ravager/archon bubble.

so most auras now only affect basic troops and select vehicles. Though stratagems may allow for units to be temporarily designated as core.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 03:34:01 pm by Ollumhammersong »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3654 on: June 08, 2021, 03:41:09 pm »
Wow that makes the Exorcist seem highly useless in the face of things like giving the Sisters some Immolators, Rhinos, and Retributions... :( Guess I got to go back and re-work my list. Though I am trying to stick with some basics since this is my first Sisters Army... so I want it be something that when I am done painting I can reuse a lot of the units in any build. My budget is sadly kind of small in that regard  :-)

Another reason I had my Sister of Battle Units so small was because I wanted the Immolators to be able to carry them into battle and support them. Is that not an effective Sister tactic anymore?

Oh and going back and reading the book again... I noticed the "Strength of Faith" thing... huh... you guys are right. I didn't think about that... cool beans.

I wanted to ask... if Judith has been made weaker to where she is not as good, is Celestine a better choice? I wanted to use her in the future when I make a 1500 point Army anyway... even if she isn't because she is my favorite Warhammer lady XD... But I was hoping she was.

Another question about CORE... given that the Sisters use a lot of Aura type rules. Does this make the basic Sister of Battle Squad the best choice? As you have units handing out the +1 to their invulnerable save or has that been nerfed too. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 03:49:08 pm by Andol »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3655 on: June 08, 2021, 03:51:09 pm »
In fairness you don't see many tanks in games at the moment. I think Immolators would be a good option your army, especially equipping them with heavy flamers. That way if you do get a unit charging, 1 CP and overwatch. Instant hits so you'll have the opportunity to cause some wounds on a charging unit.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3656 on: June 08, 2021, 03:54:32 pm »
i don't want to say it's a bad tactic to use larger squads. it depends on your army comp. but unfortunately 40k in general gives little incentive for any faction other than orks to use max squad sizes. and the 9th ed blast rules makes that even less worthwhile.

I appreciate what gw was trying to do with the blast rule but the last thing 40k needed was yet more incentive to go msu.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3657 on: June 08, 2021, 03:59:02 pm »
Another question about CORE... given that the Sisters use a lot of Aura type rules. Does this make the basic Sister of Battle Squad the best choice? As you have units handing out the +1 to their invulnerable save or has that been nerfed too.

Keep in mind, until the new codex actually launches we don't know what will be designated as 'CORE' and what wont. it's possible the exorcist will be a core unit. probably not but it's possible. if nothing else there will almost certainly be a stratagem that will allow you to make a non core unit 'core' for a turn. so you can base strats around that.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3658 on: June 08, 2021, 04:02:25 pm »
In fairness you don't see many tanks in games at the moment. I think Immolators would be a good option your army, especially equipping them with heavy flamers. That way if you do get a unit charging, 1 CP and overwatch. Instant hits so you'll have the opportunity to cause some wounds on a charging unit.

Wait... they get flamers?... I thought the Immolators where either had two heavy bolters or upgraded to two multi-melta... wow... I have missed a lot of changes XD

Was is a good squad size? When I first started I was thinking 5 to avoid blast all together, now it seems like 10 to have good numbers, but not get max blasted :(

Yeah that is true... sadly for me I have to wait to get book a little later than I want to, but hopefully I can order it with my second squad of battle sisters. Unlike with fantasy I am not making the mistake of not finishing my painting before getting more... because the hording struggle was real with that and I learned a lesson. Hey though I guess that is what I have you guys for to let me know :D

Speaking of... are the Archorites still ok? I do have one in my list, but it is starting to seem like a wasted 65 points, but meh... who knows considering how the Paragon Suits are actually made point wise. The numbers I heard have to be wrong or else they would be useless at cost that friggen much.

Also how do we know what is CORE... or will the book say that specifically?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 04:05:29 pm by Andol »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3659 on: June 08, 2021, 04:06:11 pm »
Taking them in squads of ten probably isn't the end of the world. put a ten gal squad in a rhino to speed them to an objective is a proven tactic with pretty much any faction. I can't see SoB suddenly being the exception. Try it, the worst that can happen is you lose a couple games and realize it doesn't work.

and yes, the datasheets will specifically designate a unit as 'CORE' it will be listed in the keyword section of the datasheet.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 04:08:51 pm by Ollumhammersong »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3660 on: June 08, 2021, 04:12:35 pm »
Immolators get the three options; heavy bolters, multi-meltas and heavy flamers though I think they are changing points wise. I watched a battle report on Youtube who were using the new Sisters codex and if memory serves I think they went up. I'd have to double check though.

Now a good squad size does vary. Some play small units of 5, others 10. It comes down to personal preference. I myself field standard Sisters of Battle units in 10 to make use of two extra weapons but that's just me. Results wise it's all mixed. Of course, I'm interested to see whether anyone goes the new upgrade and takes a unit of 20 but with blast weapons, I can't see that happening often. I might be wrong though, we'll wait and see.

Don't worry about buying models before you've painted your current ones. We've all done that. I still do it XD

Not too sure if they get any changes or not. We'll have to wait until the codex comes out to see.

As for Core units, I can imagine your basic troops choices, retributors, dominions, celestians, seraphim and possibly paragon warsuits will be Core but again, we won't know until the book comes out.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3661 on: June 08, 2021, 04:18:59 pm »
Taking them in squads of ten probably isn't the end of the world. put a ten gal squad in a rhino to speed them to an objective is a proven tactic with pretty much any faction. I can't see SoB suddenly being the exception. Try it, the worst that can happen is you lose a couple games and realize it doesn't work.

and yes, the datasheets will specifically designate a unit as 'CORE' it will be listed in the keyword section of the datasheet.

That was my original tactical idea with them. Still not sure how I want to kit them out... was thinking Heavy Flamer, Melta, and Combi-Melta on the Squad Leader with Power Sword. Heck I would go full Multi-Melta, but the spures didn't have one. This was always my biggest problem in trying to figure out how to kit out my base Sister Squads especially the Sister Superiors since only one comes in each kit XD 

Also if Immolators went up then that really sucks... I mean they where expensive enough, now they really are not that good for their point cost and their use as transports.

I was looking around... and if the Celestianes do become a CORE unit... then couldn't the Dogmata just give them Objective Secured for a turn? Or did I misread that?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 07:11:28 pm by Andol »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3662 on: June 08, 2021, 07:14:23 pm »
Having 'CORE' and having obsec are two different things. All troops have both CORE and obsec. But only troops (and a really rare selection of vehicles like leman russels and maybe dreadnoughts?) get obsec.

Elites, heavy support and fast attack specifically do not get obsec unless there is a faction/chapter specific rule allowing it. I.e Imperial guard Leman russells, but even then only under specific circumstances.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 07:17:17 pm by Ollumhammersong »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3663 on: June 08, 2021, 07:30:17 pm »
Having 'CORE' and having obsec are two different things. All troops have both CORE and obsec. But only troops (and a really rare selection of vehicles like leman russels and maybe dreadnoughts?) get obsec.

Elites, heavy support and fast attack specifically do not get obsec unless there is a faction/chapter specific rule allowing it. I.e Imperial guard Leman russells, but even then only under specific circumstances.

Yeah that is what I am talking about, the new sister unit Dogmata on some previews I have seen has an ability called unflinching determination that can give one CORE unit within 6' the obsec ability until the start of your next command phase. Depending on the cost, it might be worth it make the changes in my list to reflect a use of those and keep the Celestians depending on what the book says XD...

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3664 on: June 08, 2021, 07:32:24 pm »
Then yes. I haven't been reading all the updates. But that sounds like it will do exactly what you're thinking. For.1 turn your seraphim or dominion squad or whatever can contest an objective

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3665 on: June 09, 2021, 08:44:09 am »
Yeah that is what I am talking about, the new sister unit Dogmata on some previews I have seen has an ability called unflinching determination that can give one CORE unit within 6' the obsec ability until the start of your next command phase. Depending on the cost, it might be worth it make the changes in my list to reflect a use of those and keep the Celestians depending on what the book says XD...

In terms of CORE, every infantry unit excluding characters - yes, repentia and arcoflagellants included - get it. So go nuts. Get a 10 strong Celestian squad (sacresants especially, those seem undercosted) or 20 man sisters and sit on points with their invul save buffed to 4++ and making enemy units only wound them on a 4+...

Dogmatas are 80 points with a host of good rules so she's definitely an option. The new sisters codex seems pretty strong.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3666 on: June 09, 2021, 12:25:12 pm »
In terms of CORE, every infantry unit excluding characters - yes, repentia and arcoflagellants included - get it. So go nuts. Get a 10 strong Celestian squad (sacresants especially, those seem undercosted) or 20 man sisters and sit on points with their invul save buffed to 4++ and making enemy units only wound them on a 4+...

Dogmatas are 80 points with a host of good rules so she's definitely an option. The new sisters codex seems pretty strong.

That is good... for me. I would say that with this rule change my personal list won't change much. Though it will have less tanks in it. I was curious which units pass out the invul save buff's to Sisters? Beyond the characters like Celestine and Judith, I know you can get it through the Warlord traits... and if they keep the stratagem that gives a character a warlord trait you can get it there... which is my overall question. What is  the best way to go about spreading out the invul buff. I hear that is a big tactic with the Sisters. 

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3667 on: June 09, 2021, 01:48:44 pm »
Using it on a big blob of 20 sisters sounds effective. You're  sinking some points into that but not too much. And it could be a real bitch to shift.

Personally I can see putting it on a mqx squad of zypherim sisters and using them to tarpit/punch up against something  scary like a genestealer blob or lychguard

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3668 on: June 09, 2021, 07:04:07 pm »
Last codex it was fairly easy to get the 4++ invul save. This one it's quite tricky - the warlord trait Indomitable Belief still exists, but Junith and Celestine both lost their ability to buff the invul. The second half of the invul save buff now lies in the new prayers that the Sister "priest" units (Missionaries, Preachers, Dialogus, Dogmatas) can take, and is restricted to only the last two. These buffs are cast on a 3+ in the command phase and target only a single unit. The 4++ invul is no longer something you can put on 3/4 of your army, just on one specific unit that you expect to take a lot of fire, like a big blob of twenty sisters or a zephyrim unit running deep into the back lines.


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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3669 on: June 10, 2021, 08:21:56 am »
Meh for me I am going to wait and see how the meta pans out and play my first few games before I take my squads over 10... I have a good solid idea for a 1000 point core list that doesn't include major characters and is a good start to my collection. I ended up stressing myself out way to much over the realization that my oringal list was completely... well... yeah, but hey at least I haven't bought the miniatures.

I did like the change to Celestine. Now she is 200 points and comes with both her ladies anyway... which was how I was going to take her when I got around to doing so... so yeah... saves me the trouble and an elite spot. Said to see her lose that buff. My original tact was to have her and some Zypherim (Or whichever of the units deepstrikes...) Go crazy in the back field of the enemy for a bit and cause as much damage as they can. Now that seems like it will be harder without the invul save bonus sadly. Will have to see if there is another way I can do it...

Can character units like the Priest be loaded into Rhinos and such... I wanted them to be able to keep up with my Celestians.

Oh and I notice the Paragon Warsuits where CORE... That is just... That is just... man. At higher point levels... hehehehe.

Also I saw something about the Castigator Sisters now have... and from it is stats and point cost. It seems to me it could to the Exorsist job from 8th edition. Unless I am wrong on this. Any thoughts on it? I was thinking it might be a decent replacement in my list for the Exorsist... and I could also have it advance with the Rhino's as support.   

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3670 on: June 10, 2021, 10:32:02 pm »
Meh for me I am going to wait and see how the meta pans out and play my first few games before I take my squads over 10... I have a good solid idea for a 1000 point core list that doesn't include major characters and is a good start to my collection. I ended up stressing myself out way to much over the realization that my oringal list was completely... well... yeah, but hey at least I haven't bought the miniatures.

I did like the change to Celestine. Now she is 200 points and comes with both her ladies anyway... which was how I was going to take her when I got around to doing so... so yeah... saves me the trouble and an elite spot. Said to see her lose that buff. My original tact was to have her and some Zypherim (Or whichever of the units deepstrikes...) Go crazy in the back field of the enemy for a bit and cause as much damage as they can. Now that seems like it will be harder without the invul save bonus sadly. Will have to see if there is another way I can do it...

Can character units like the Priest be loaded into Rhinos and such... I wanted them to be able to keep up with my Celestians.

Oh and I notice the Paragon Warsuits where CORE... That is just... That is just... man. At higher point levels... hehehehe.

Also I saw something about the Castigator Sisters now have... and from it is stats and point cost. It seems to me it could to the Exorsist job from 8th edition. Unless I am wrong on this. Any thoughts on it? I was thinking it might be a decent replacement in my list for the Exorsist... and I could also have it advance with the Rhino's as support.   

Celestine is a great beatstick now and also more survivable, she can deepstrike with your Zephyrim and protect them with the stratagem that forces enemies to hit her instead of them. So even without the save buff she's still very good at keeping the Zephyrim healthy.

Yup, characters that are infantry can be loaded into Rhinos. Note that outside of a strat, the priest buffs are done in the command phase, which means that they'll still be in the rhino that turn and thus can't use their buffs.

I honestly think Paragon Warsuits are not worth their points cost. They're not as tanky as premier terminator units (like Deathwing or Deathshrouds) because they lack a good invul, and they're really expensive ways to carry multi-meltas. Their punching is not bad but they're not that fast and also don't have deep strike like termies, and with the loss of advance and charge strat they're not mobile. On top of that they're vehicles so they can't move through terrain as easily. I think they'll just got shot off the board by meltas/lascannons/dark lances. I might be wrong but they really seem underwhelming to me, plus they look a bit too goofy. I know 40k is supposed to be over the top, but this is a bit much.

I would honestly take the Exorcist over the Castigator. It's not a bad tank, but the Exorcist at least has the flexibility to shoot behind cover if your opponent has taken a lot of anti-tank. Exorcist in the previous codex also had T8 which doesn't sound like much compared to T7, but it's decepitively strong against most antitank weapons. The Castigator is just going to trundle forward and die to after one turn of shooting. Which is a shame, because it is a lovely model and the gun options sound legitimately good - it's just that the platform is a bit too fragile.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3671 on: June 11, 2021, 08:16:26 am »
Oh yeah I saw that stratgem that allows Celestine to Deep Strike now, as well as the one that keeps them healthy. Does she still have whole thing with her girls that allow her to keep bring them back? I believe it was called Tears of the Saint or something like that. To me that combined with their bodyguard really helped her to stay around longer. Now though that the three are considered one unit... I believe there are other ways you can prevent her from taking damage I think. At least until the other two ladies are wiped out. XD...

Don't worry I agree totally about the Paragon Warsuits. I wouldn't run them outside of a casual game at around 2000 points or more, and that is just to actually play with them. I mean I want to stick with the Sisters so why not give all the units a chance to try out different ideas and see what I can learn about the game. The worse that happens is I add another awesome model to the mantle. XD I personally want to give them a shot before ruling them out. They are new and you never know what janky stuff people might do with it *Looks at March of Saint Katherine* XD

Really... the Exorcist can shoot behind cover? How is it able to do that? I thought it needed line of sight... is that a specific Strat or ability? Does the Exorcist still have T8 or did it go down to T7?

I have to admit given some of my tactics I want to take Bloody Rose, but meh... for now I am just a flithy casual so Martyred Lady it is. I will wait a bit to paint my ladies for a separate Bloody Rose force when I want to give competion a try, because that is a whole new thing from causal.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 08:22:30 am by Andol »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3672 on: June 11, 2021, 08:30:50 pm »
Celestine takes wounds on the Geminae first, before she takes wounds herself. She can also do an action to bring them back if they die, or heal all wounds on the unit. They don't give her bodyguard anymore.

Go nuts with Paragon Warsuits then haha. I played the Triumph of St Katherine a lot in the previous codex and she was incredible - just so much miracle dice, that you could spread out among your units, and nigh unkillable even though you couldn't really hide her behind troops. The new version tones down a lot of her abilities in exchange for a points hike and character protection, which I don't think is as worth it. It'll need testing, for sure.

Exorcist now has a 2CP stratagem to ignore line of sight for one turn. It's not something you can spam and they lost a lot of their lethality in the new codex (loss of rerolls, loss of AP) while also losing a wound as well as dropping to T7. Excessive nerfs, in my opinion. The stratagem also feels too expensive to warrant taking them for it, but we'll see.

I think all the orders are good, just that Bloody Rose is the best in melee (and sisters are still a primarily melee faction, as is the game). Our Martyred Lady is a great order and it's what my army is painted as too, even though I play them as whatever Order. I don't think I've met a single opponent who's kicked up a fuss because my sisters are painted a different Order - I mean, a lot of peoples' armies aren't even painted fully in the first place haha.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3673 on: June 11, 2021, 09:51:42 pm »
I went back and looked over the rules and list. I am thinking maybe the idea of running those Celestian squads wasn't as good as I thought in comparison to the dominion squad.

Especially since that new rule allows me to simply vanguard forward whatever vehicle the Dominion are being transported in. Allowing the Rhino and any characters inside to gain that vanguard movement as well. Maybe it would be worth it to understrength the units by one or two apiece in order to bring my characters along and dump everyone at once after that vanguard movement phase on my turn if.

What do you think of the Supreme Commander lady they got. I have read in some places she is a bit OP... as in... geeh why is that not in your list OP XD Which I don't find to be a fun prospect. Even if I would so run her at 2000 points. Would much prefer other units before then... aka... Celestine and a horde of 'angels' raining down from heaven in the back field at 1500 points... yes please.   

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #3674 on: June 11, 2021, 11:49:17 pm »
Dominion scout rule seems very strong and seems good along with retributors, or small squads of arcos or repentia. I haven't tried it out yet but it seems strong.

Morvenn Vahl seems strong, I'd take her in every list. She makes the Zephyrim horde stronger too, if you don't deepstrike with them.