->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"

[Rajah]

Creation is falling apart. Led by a mysterious entity - Ishvara? Primordial? Sidereal? Who can say? - known only as the Nowhere King, an unaccountably vast army of the Fair Folk known as the Thousand Empires (for they are just that, a thousand bickering nations of laughing djinni and hungry ogres and yellow-eyed facestealers) has launched an invasion of Creation, seeking to unmake Creation into formless Wyld as it once was. They ravage mortals, drawing them into endless fantasy games and eating their dreams. They birth gossamer nightmares and send them roaring into civilized lands. They sing strange songs that shift leylines and draw unbidden gasps from unwed maidens. And they would make all their mad desires into reality - or reality into their mad desires, more appropriately - except that...

Creation is dying. They call themselves Deathknights, the Abyssal Exalted, Chosen of the Void - the worldkillers, the Underworld's lifelorn champions. Behind them are vast armies of undead abominations, hungry ghosts, zombified war machines, awful plagues, memetic suicide religions...and worse, the Deathlords and their petty tyrannies, their disagreements and hatreds and ancient agendas. Their eagerness to tear each other apart is all that keeps them from enacting the will of their unspeakable masters. The Neverborn...what can be said of such horror? They lie in their hideous tomb-bodies and whisper to each other of how glad they will be to die at last, when all that ever is and was and will be is reduced to nothing at all. They whisper, and sob, and scream, and would have their way if they were not stymied by the fact that...

Creation is being devoured. The Locust Crusade came from nowhere, a shattering of a great Seal heralding the arrival of the Alchemical Host and their technoturgical Harvest Engines, boring deep into the earth and ice and sand and water and loam to drain away its resources and Essence, returning all that they take to their coming Great Maker far beyond the mortal realm. Oh, and souls: they need those, as many as they can buy or steal, to expand their hopeless slave-society. Perhaps something could be found to spare them in a less dire Age, and perhaps they'd agree to help the world that would help them in term if their time was not also short...and if they hadn't brought IT with them. Gremlin Syndrome. A biomechanical desecration of life that aggressively spreads itself and terrifies even the undead, and worse: the Locusts don't know how many of their own have already been infected. Or what else aside from their hateful operation they are about to bring through. Not that it matters, because...

Creation is under siege. The Realm is collapsing into petty tyranny, backbiting, betrayal, and assassination; as always, it is the citizens who suffer first. The Lunar Exalted and the Sidereal Fellowship fight an interwoven and shadow-bound civil war over what to do with the returning Solar Exalted. Something stirs in the dark jungles of the East from where it has slept beneath Denandsor. Gem is moments away from being completely destroyed. Sacherevell's sleep is troubled and restless. The Solar Exalted run amok, overturning kingdoms, butchering legends, forging things best left unimagined. And He is nowhere to be found. Creation's greatest defender, once its most dedicated, always its strongest, is missing...so say some. Others whisper a thought not entertained since the Primordial War itself:

The Unconquered Sun is dead.

Oh, Holy still functions, still provides some small measure of comfort against the growing darkness - but it is a paling light compared to that of Sol Invictus. How could this be? How could this come to pass? Some say that it could not, that the Sun only bides his time to strike in the perfect moment and sweep away all the world's enemies at once. Some say Luna devoured him and keeps his principles burning hot in her belly. Some say he was slain by the Sixth Maiden, just now arrived from potentiality, who embodies an idea no one has yet dared to voice. Some say he was assassinated by Queen M-R-L reborn, who skinned him alive and wears his light for her dress. There are so many sayers, and so little truth...all that is for certain is that where sorcery and thaumaturgy fail, the world is dark.

The Yozis had grand plans for Creation. They would siege its strongholds and shatter its strength, and as the sole power left to march across Creation they would sear its geomancy down to the shinma and recast its gods and elementals into forms of infinite, endless suffering. They would drink Celestial Wine from the skulls of the Maidens and use Sol Himself to turn his favored children to ash, and then even the ash would be irradiated and poisoned against hope for all of eternity. They would Reclaim the Games of Divinity and make of their once-favored kingdom a charnelhouse. Now...they know not what to do. They could do nothing. They could turn their face as the Sun did. They wouldn't have to lose...but for the Titans who once worked inviolate truth from indeterminate chaos, how could they stand not to win? They argue and scream and tear at each other...and while they busy themselves with deciding how best to ruin everything for everyone, their once-human Exalted turn their eyes to their once-home and realize that they cannot wait. Some serve Hell and seek to sanctify what can still be saved while they await further instructions. Some have betrayed it for the memory of families, friends, and the painless love unknown to any of the demon realm. Some seek to build, dance, or carve their own legend into Creation. Some are simply bored...but all are moving, and although they number only two-score-and-ten, they are mighty enough to have their say. All that remains is to decide for yourself: what will I say? What will the stories of whatever survives - if anything does - say of me?

Creation is dark. But Sol is not the only light. Whether they comes to save or slaughter, to enlighten or enslave, loving, hating, or to simply laugh or dance or hold tight that which is precious one last time - they will come. Should the Sun not rise, an emerald dawn will sear the horizon.

Hi! This is an interest check - and an ST request, before anyone gets too excited we need one of those - for an Exalted game set in the twilight of the Second Age. It need not be exclusively or even mostly Infernals, they're just my favorite splat and this is written from their perspective. Other folks will have other perspectives, and every Exalted is a hero capable of shaping the path of history according to their desire. If you wish to open this hypothetical to other Exalted types and if they turn out to be a majority that's acceptable, my only requests are that Infernals are at least open as a choice, 2.5 and the Ink Monkeys are used, and that the game start off with Exalts of middling power - say, a hundred XP on top of standard creation.

Desired but not insistently so would be the use of flat XP costs to retain the value of Abilities, Attributes, and growing Virtue, Revlid's Mutations, using Solar costs and creation for every splat should you open the game to other Exalted types so that everyone gets to have fun at the same rate if not quite the same raw power, and that Essence be a fixed number raised automatically after various XP plateaus are reached: IE, starts at 4, increases to 5 at 250xp, increases to 6 at 400xp without cost but also without allowing players to jump ahead of the curve. I find these make for a smoother and more enjoyable experience all-around, including on the ST's side of the screen, but as noted, these are not hard requirements.

[AndyZ]

Interested but I won't be running.

[Rajah]

So, while we're waiting, characters ideas you'd like to kick around or discuss? I am considering a Malefactor favoring Malfeas, a sort of newmade priest-king Hellbent on dominating, devouring, and unleashing anew, alien, and inviolate everything of Creation he can get his hands on. Most of the time he plays up the arrogant god-emperor vibe to maximum effect, but his personal motives are all...quite laughably personal. Once nothing more than an irreverent silk merchant who made his living by completing the trade route between An-Teng and the Realm, he was Chosen when he saw a gang of laughing cultists of the Pale Mistress and the chain-bound undead they led like dogs beset a small village he was much-given to passing through on his road to the seaports (there was a girl, you see). As the cultists cut down the villagers, the village priest asked him to gift them his silks as a sacrifice to their Golden Lord and HIS lord, the Unconquered Sun, and to kneel with them and pray for intercession, saying that the words of a rich man turned poor would be loud in the ears of Heaven.

He told the priests his cargo was theirs to burn as they wished, but rather than put his faith in distant gods he drew his heirloom scimitar and went with his caravan guards to try and stem the slaughter, spitting curses personalized to each Incarnae between screams of terror as he threw himself into the fray. They succeeded in driving back the killers, but much of the village was lost and no miracle came to restore it; if he had fought past his faithlessness to take a chance on some good still existing in the world, he might have Exalted as a Zenith and burned away the incursion with minimal loss of life. Instead it was Cecelyne's vision he received later that night, and one of Her souls that came to him with an offer of power and soothing murmurs to ease his bitterness and reinforce his hatred of the gods.

[Synecdoche17]

Hi.  :-)

Rajah, are you going to be running this game? I'm interested in doing an Exalted game, but I don't have any experience with Infernals and pretty little with the system/setting as a whole.

[Re Z L]

I'd certainly be interested in playing as well, if we found a DM.

[Rajah]

Hi.  :-)

Rajah, are you going to be running this game? I'm interested in doing an Exalted game, but I don't have any experience with Infernals and pretty little with the system/setting as a whole.

I'm looking for an ST, unfortunately. I'm glad to see interest in the thread picking up! I was getting worried. Infernals are a pretty unique starting point within Exalted - the rockstars of Hell, caught halfway between humanity and becoming full-on Eldritch Abominations, with the power to do anything they want as long as they're *weird* about it. Among their thematics are nuclear fire, demonic architecture, deserts, religion, hypocrisy, psychic power, crystal and glass, killing winds, love-as-weapon, darkness, betrayal, motherhood, and alien ocean creatures - and if you survive long enough, you can weave these together into things like the ability to summon an impromptru cathedral for worshiping yourself  in, or pull your love out of your heart and use it as a throwing star, or send out a pack of irradiated shadows to devour your enemies and take their place as dopplegangers.

They're a lot of fun, but they can be very strange and kinda scary. Any ideas as to what sort of character you'd be interested in? Same to you, Re Z L.

[Synecdoche17]

They're a lot of fun, but they can be very strange and kinda scary. Any ideas as to what sort of character you'd be interested in?

I guess I'd take my cue from the rest of the group. Probably a failed heroine of some sort, though.

[AndyZ]

Unfortunately, there's three things that'd keep me from being able to run this:

1.) I don't know Infernals whatsoever.
8.) An inability to count properly
4.) Work has been kicking my butt of late
3.) My inspiration seems to have abandoned me.

(Sorry, haven't done that joke in forever)

I hope it goes well for people, though.

[Rajah]

Seems like a lot of people are interested in Infernals but haven't played, eh. I hope this gets off the ground - the concept is a bit like the deep end of the pool, but sometimes it's nice to submerge for a learning experience.

[Rajah]

Still looking for players and an ST! To pass the time, consider this an informal Q&A for people with questions about Infernals or Exalted at large.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Would be nice to see an Infernal game.  If I understood them better I probably would take a crack at running them.

[Rajah]

Would be nice to see an Infernal game.  If I understood them better I probably would take a crack at running them.

I'll take that as a question.  :P

Probably the best writing on the topic has been done by Holden Shearer, one of the core designers of Infernals and one of their most vocal proponents. Themed collections:

Are Infernals evil? (short answer: sometimes, but not usually)
Doesn't everyone want to kill you? (short answer: not unless you give them a reason)
What do you need to watch out for when playing Infernals? (short answer: the Reclamation and the Yozis are too focal; Hell and Creation are not focal enough)

Also, from Aquillon, as the writers tend to be more diplomatic than necessary at times:

Why DON'T Infernals just serve the Yozis like they were meant to? (short answer: "They don't care about you. To the extent that they care about you, they hate you for making them care about you.")

[Synecdoche17]

How can you best play Infernals as good guys?  :P

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Anti-heroes really and martyrs in a way.  Sort of how Batman becomes the villain for Gotham or people do horrible things in order to help others in the long run.  Probably take an "ends justify the means" approach.

[Rajah]

How can you best play Infernals as good guys?  :P

For me, the easiest way is to think in terms of consequence rather than action. A Solar hunts down masquerading Fair Folk dream-eaters and kills them in single combat, then inspires the people of her dying kingdom to work harder and more effectively even as she blesses her government with flowing paperwork and her farmlands with more nourishing sunlight. An Infernal whispers to the earth, which grows tangled with poisons that drive the raksha mad until they willingly seek her out to be devoured; she drinks up their magic and then vomits it out as a swarm of enchanted cats that maul to death traitors to her kingdom's Policy and carry rapturous dreams to the best and brightest. When winter comes, she spends a week asleep submerged in the local water tables, and thereafter those who drink from the kingdom's wells soak up cold the way plants draw strength from the sun.

In both cases the raksha threat is dead, the kingdom runs smoothly, and the people don't starve. Infernals are alien and often terrifyingly so, but warping and corrupting the natural order doesn't have to be a bad thing. In Creation, the natural order sucks.

An Infernal hero wants the same things a Solar hero wants; where a Solar will apply skill to overcome a problem, however, an Infernal tends to either become a solution, create a solution, or change the parameters of the problem so it's not a problem any more.

[Synecdoche17]

But isn't the core premise of Infernals to be agents of Hell whose actions will someday lead to the return of the horrifying demon kings of old?

Not Solars. I meant the demon kings before them!

[Black Howling]

But isn't the core premise of Infernals to be agents of Hell whose actions will someday lead to the return of the horrifying demon kings of old?

Not Solars. I meant the demon kings before them!

It's sort of like with any other exalt. They are made for a purpose, and it comes naturally, but the best the people who created them can do is aim the bastards. Each exalt has the power given to them with little to no means of their creators controlling that power. The entire reason that the primordials just couldn't order the gods to stop their exalts from destroying them.

[Rajah]

But isn't the core premise of Infernals to be agents of Hell whose actions will someday lead to the return of the horrifying demon kings of old?

No, definitely not. That's just what the Yozis want - and they are, historically, really bad at getting what they want. The Yozis have candy and Hellpuppies and stuff to offer, but eventually...people are people, and giving the world to a bunch of cosmic assholes starts to sour as a prospect. I can't actually imagine a character who, given the choice to do anything they want or turn everything over to some bitter demon kings who are just going to smash it to pieces forever, takes option B. Can you?

Infernals are made out of Solar Exaltations, and unlike Abyssals it's not an inversion - they just colored it green and nailed a bunch of eldritch crap to it so it can mainline Primordial Charms. The guiding system for choosing an Infernal is based on people who could have become Solars - people fit, in other words, to be empowered by superweapons designed for winning an impossible war. No more and no less. Infernals aren't chosen for being evil, or loyal, or anything that would help the Yozis - they're selected based on "fit to be a Solar".

The premise of Infernals doesn't assume you'll do anything other than be awesome and rock out Green Sun Prince style.

[Black Howling]

No, definitely not. That's just what the Yozis want - and they are, historically, really bad at getting what they want. The Yozis have candy and Hellpuppies and stuff to offer, but eventually...people are people, and giving the world to a bunch of cosmic assholes starts to sour as a prospect. I can't actually imagine a character who, given the choice to do anything they want or turn everything over to some bitter demon kings who are just going to smash it to pieces forever, takes option B. Can you?

Infernals are made out of Solar Exaltations, and unlike Abyssals it's not an inversion - they just colored it green and nailed a bunch of eldritch crap to it so it can mainline Primordial Charms. The guiding system for choosing an Infernal is based on people who could have become Solars - people fit, in other words, to be empowered by superweapons designed for winning an impossible war. No more and no less. Infernals aren't chosen for being evil, or loyal, or anything that would help the Yozis - they're selected based on "fit to be a Solar".

The premise of Infernals doesn't assume you'll do anything other than be awesome and rock out Green Sun Prince style.

Exactly! I almost offered to ST this thing for a bit, but I'm not ready to get back into systems yet. Still, props on your story outline Rajah. And if an ST comes about, I'd be willing to make up a character for it if there was room.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Starting to get some framework for a campaign and the first adventure set up.

[Muse]

*peeks in* 

oh, Pumpkin!  Did you decide to run!   May I please play? 

[Synecdoche17]

Starting to get some framework for a campaign and the first adventure set up.

Do those of us who applied earlier get dibs?  :P

[Empyrean]

So I'm curious. Would the Devil-TIger paths be available for GSPs to start becoming their own Primordials?

[Rajah]

Starting to get some framework for a campaign and the first adventure set up.

XD

[Cessali]

As the Exalted chat I'm GMing with is closing its doors in a couple of weeks, I'm actually going to start drawing plans up for a campaign on these forums, most likely also along the lines spelled out in the OP.

I'll be looking for anywhere between four to six or seven, most likely GSP-focused with wiggle room for non-Sidereal Exalts.  There'll be a bit of groundwork that needs to be laid out in the process of getting this started - more details will be forthcoming after September rolls in.

[Muse]

  I don't know those abbreviations you're using, Jarick. 

[Cessali]

OP, Original Post (or sometimes Original Poster);

GSP, Green Sun Prince, as opposed to akuma, as both technically fit within the banner of Infernal Exalted.

[Rajah]

I for one am incredibly excited about this. So, to our two prospective STs, could we get a setting sketch - even a very brief one - to start building ideas around?

[Synecdoche17]

So, I hear that in October there will be new rules. Will we be using those?

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I am sort of on the fence.  While I am definately excited for new rules, I am pondering how much of a "game changer" that would be.  Honestly I feel confident that people could make characters (at least backgrounds and such) before they drop.  Sorry this has taken me so long, been quite tied up.

[AndyZ]

When Third Edition comes out, it'll only have rules for Solars and maybe one other group, but probably just Solars and ordinary humans.  It generally takes years for all the other options to come out.

To that end, I strongly recommend not trying to throw together a game which will be very Infernals-heavy unless this one also isn't going to have Infernals as playable characters.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Well I intend for the game to be all Infernal player characters.  Also the books being released lately (WtA and VtM 20th anniversaries) include most everything in one shot.  Just have to cross fingers and see on that end.

[Cessali]

Flight of the Broken-Winged Crane
There is no such things as the Reclamation.

Oh, there was such a thing, once, and any demon sage confident that Orabilis cannot hear their speculation has a theory as to why it ceased to be.  Some say their leashes were too long, and the Green Sun Princes rebelled for the same reasons all mortals have rebelled against their rightful masters.  Some say the idea was a dream too far, even beginning to imagine that the soul-pantheons of the Yozi could cooperate in such a coherent way for any length of time.  Others point to the absence (disappearance? death?) of the phylactery-construct Lilun.  And some say it was too little, too late-- not even with a hundred warlocks could Hell have averted what has befallen Creation.

For the Yozi, it matters not.  Ligier has declared the subject taboo, and Orabilis declared that such a project never transpired in the first place; the Green Sun Princes have officially been abandoned, and must forge a new path for themselves...

But in this day and age, who -isn't-?


THIS PART IS KEY:
Be sure to make a character that is not only going to be willing to, but interested in, working with the other PCs.  The game will be taking place RY778, ten years after the normal timeline begins, and shit is going to have been increasingly fucked as those ten years roll on.  The narrative that builds from here will depend at least in part in what interested players are interested in, whether it's the preservation of Creation against forces that are likely to destroy it, the creation of a preternatural paradise that will stand against the tides of darkness, or saying "fuck it, dude, let's go bowling with blood ape skulls."

All PCs will have known one another on past encounters and at least be nominally familiar enough with one another to be willing to form a sort of extended circle/coven/siblinghood.  I'll be soliciting possible particulars as to what specifically has gone wrong, but it'll suffice to say for now that unless someone posits something more interesting, the Lotus Massacre succeeded, the Realm's strength is being spent in isolationistic fervor, the Deathlords now rule openly and war openly with their errant minions, Solar Exalted suffer even more desperately from the Great Curse, the unity of the Silver Pact has been a sham ever since the Shogunate days, and the Champions of Autocthon know better than to trust any of these crazy Exalts at their word.

MECHANICALLY:
We will be using the 2.5 ruleset.  For those of you who desire a chance to play with numbers on a sheet (a crowd of which I am oft part of), this game will be primarily focused on GSPs, additionally using the rules out of The Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions for the Unwoven Coadjutor background and additional Yozi Charms.  I'll also be taking GSP-friendly Solars, Lunars (as per the Terrifying Argent Witches rewrite with options to veto particular Charms), Abyssals, and Dragonbloods.  No PC akuma, Sidereals, or Alchemicals are permitted.  This will be done as an XP build with (subject to change) 600 XP; all Attributes and Virtues start at 1, Essence at 3, and Willpower at 5, with Backgrounds costing 3xp.  No Merits/Flaws.  Characters will gain one free Excellency for their Caste and Favored Yozi/Abilities/Attributes.  Crafting will be using Revlid's revision.  The Mentor background will be required to learn new Martial Arts, sorcery, or necromancy (at 1 dot per "tier" of the capacity in question) if you do not have a teacher through other sources.  Other homebrew may be used at my discretion; do not build a character around it until you have my go.

[Rajah]

Flight of the Broken-Winged Craneadditionally using the rules out of The Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions for the Unwoven Coadjutor background and additional Yozi Charms.

I think you mean the Fourth Soul? It's not actually in the Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions, for whatever reason.

This will be done as an XP build with (subject to change) 600 XP; all Attributes and Virtues start at 1, Essence at 3, and Willpower at 5, with Backgrounds costing 3xp.

Is that a pure XP build, as in no part of normal character creation (8/6/4 attributes, for instance) occurs at all? The large number seems to suggest so.

Well I intend for the game to be all Infernal player characters.  Also the books being released lately (WtA and VtM 20th anniversaries) include most everything in one shot.  Just have to cross fingers and see on that end.

Their release schedule and developer discussion can be found on the official Exalted forums; the earliest we are likely to see Infernals is 2016. Initial 3rd Edition will contain only Solars and mortals, and Dragonblooded will be released in 2014, with no set date for Lunars (who are next after Dragonblooded) or anyone else. An unfortunate necessity, I suppose; progress comes more slowly than is wished.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I voice interest to join a infernal game, just sit and watch answers given to above questions (especially regarding do we dismiss all char gen stuff and have 600 XP to spend or do we get standard char gen + 600 XP).

[Rajah]

I voice interest to join a infernal game, just sit and watch answers given to above questions (especially regarding do we dismiss all char gen stuff and have 600 XP to spend or do we get standard char gen + 600 XP).

Hi! I was really hoping you'd show up to this party. I'm TPO Cantaxes Taemos and Cathak Rajarion.

[Cessali]

Fourth Soul, yes.  I thought the Coadjutor was on there when I looked at it but it wasn't!

And yes, pure XP -- no 8/6/4+Ability dots.  Attributes and Virtues start at 1, Essence at 3, Willpower at 5, plus free Caste and Favored Excellencies; everything else has to be bought from the ground up.

[Empyrean]

And we'll be getting more info in September? I look forward to learning more and consider this an expression of interest. :)

[Zaer Darkwail]

Hmmm, interesting approach for char gen. Do we use standard cost or shall we use following formula to all exalted chars (I find it quite balanced in long term);

Favored cost after the /:

Attribute : 8/6 XP [Rating 6+ : 16/12 XP]
Ability : 4/3 XP [Rating 6+ : 8/6 XP]
Specialty : 2/1 XP
Native Charms/Spells : 10/8 XP
Unfavorable Magic : 9 XP (Heretical Charms, Infernal Spells, Knacks)
Alchemical Martial Arts : 11 XP
Superior Magic : 12/10 XP (Mortals learning TMA/TCS, DBs learning CMA)
Essence : (Rating × 8) XP
Virtue : 3 XP
Willpower : 3 XP
Backgrounds : 3 XP
Stuff not on this list  : Old XP cost

Hi! I was really hoping you'd show up to this party. I'm TPO Cantaxes Taemos and Cathak Rajarion.

Oh hi! Nice to see ya :).

[Cessali]

While all Exalts will be using the Solaroid cost to add Charms/increase Essence and paying 9xp for nonfavorable magic, raising traits will be happening at the normal book costs.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Ouch, you do know the willpower very least is overcosted? Here is run down to get willpower from 5 to 10 with XP;

5x2 = 10 XP for 6th dot
6x2 = 12 XP for 7th dot
7x2 = 14 XP for 8th dot
8x2 = 16 XP for 9th dot
9x2 = 18 XP for 10th dot

Total: 70 XP

So in short, willpower 10 costs 7 unfavored charms (or knacks). Costing raise three unfavored abilities to max 5th dot. Costing more than raising essence to 5th dot (plenty left over).

Although we have 600 XP to use but the XP burns pretty damn fast in attributes; getting 2 dots for everything would cost 72 XP alone. Raising all to 3th dots would cost additional 144 XP.

Not to mention we would need XP for backgrounds, charms (besides freebie excelency) and virtues and abilities.

Not saying I am not fine with this but I thought using uniformal XP cost everything expect essence only being the scaling one.

[AndyZ]

I probably won't be in this game, but regarding the XP-creation system, I personally want to suggest that it works better than the default chargen system.  You have to make sure it's enough XP, of course, but you get seriously punished if you don't have things like WP as high as possible at the start.

Now, this system can be gamed just as easily thanks to training time, but training time isn't as onerous as XP.  You don't have the issue that 4 freebie points to raise Appearance from 3 to 4 (12xp) could get WP from 6 to 10 for 40xp.

Given enough training time (or ignoring the training time rules altogether) means that players who want to grow into their abilities won't be left behind). 

Certainly you shouldn't get WP10 at start with this system, but it makes it much more feasible to buy it up later, especially compared to the other players.

[Rajah]

Not saying I am not fine with this but I thought using uniformal XP cost everything expect essence only being the scaling one.

I did some math and it works out pretty close to normal character generation at 0xp, except you can sacrifice things for more Charms (at the cost of a lesser 'base' sheet). I was gonna ask if Jarick would consider maybe going with 400xp and a flat buy just because that feeling of burning things away is kinda unpleasant and the old argument that Strength 4 - > 5 for 20xp is not worth two 8xp Melee Charms (and thus it encourages skimping on the mortal for more magic) but I can deal with it either way, I suppose.

[Cessali]

EDIT/REWRITE:

The XP for character creation is, as mentioned tentative.  600 is a number I threw off the cuff; expect it to go up when I actually have firmer setting data come September, and expect opportunities for additional experience right off the bat immediately after I have a solid headcount.  Yes, I do know that XP buy for Willpower is Very, Very High.  Right now I am okay with that being the case, and honestly I am also okay with the weird asymmetry of burgeoning Primordial power coming more easily than mortal skills.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, usually the base char gen of heroic mortal (which is very similar to exalted solar) takes emphasis on the fact person has got normal life and life experience before exaltation. So with pure XP system you can abuse the said fact that you can take max stats on stuff you want and be diminished in areas where not even normal mortal would not be (like all virtues being 1 when not using any flaws to explain it).

So overall XP buy is okay but there should be ground rules none the less that folks do not say, have all social and mental stats in 1 and while physical stats are maxed (for a slayer example). So when we use those rules then it would be same to use normal BP options (or if we use them then folks have idea that they need spend XX amount XP for primary attributes and XX amount to secondary attributes etc).

[Cessali]

I intend on reviewing all characters before I put a stamp of sanction on them, and any submitted PC sheets will also be up for serious questioning by their fellow players-to-be.  If someone wants to game the system by skimping on a set of attributes, they'll have to both A) entertain me, and B) justify it to their fellow players why they' carrying around a pathetic weakling, someone who flinches at the mere thought of being spoken to, or someone who might as well be catatonic.

Expect the metatextual equivalent of a [Chicanery-No] tag.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Aha, ok. I will work on sheet and send to you once it's done.

[meikle]

Certainly you shouldn't get WP10 at start with this system, but it makes it much more feasible to buy it up later, especially compared to the other players.

Everyone blissfully overlooks that Willpower has always been capped at 8 (unless a character has two virtues at 4) at character creation anyway.  Having two Virtues to constantly roll against / eat your WP and add limit is a pretty hefty cost for those last two dots.  The game describes such characters as "unreasonably intense."

[Zaer Darkwail]

Huh? So how a char with 3 virtues maxed and maxed willpower with integrity 4 would be alike then? When speaking the person is dragon-blood?

(a curious RP question as have such char in Rpol game)

[meikle]

Huh? So how a char with 3 virtues maxed and maxed willpower with integrity 4 would be alike then? When speaking the person is dragon-blood?

(a curious RP question as have such char in Rpol game)

A character with 3 virtues capped should be a slave to their virtues at that point.  Any time they make any effort to do basically anything that isn't virtuous, they have to get 0 successes on 5 dice or spend willpower and gain Limit.  This is very much a constraint on how those characters would look in practice; someone with, say, Valor 5 Temperance 5 Conviction 5 would be terrifying to encounter, and there's not really any way around that (except playing them in a way that doesn't reflect what's on their sheet, I guess.)

Now, Exalted 2e made spending Willpower not really a big deal, and with 2.5, it's basically useless except for soaking mental influence, but conceptually if you've got three Virtues at 5 and you're constantly spending willpower to ignore them you're probably doing something wrong.

edit: I think I have answered the wrong question, because I read "alike" to mean "would all characters with high virtues be the same," and I think you meant, "What would a character with high virtues and max willpower be like?"  In the latter case, I mean, still terrifying.  I don't know what one Virtue you aren't compelled by; you have 10 willpower, which means your character probably never questions themself.  It's Exalted and Conviction is usually the most useful Virtue, so they probably never change their course of action once they've settled on it.  Everyone loves Valor, so your character can never be slighted without some sort of response, can't back down from a challenge, won't look away from a fight.  Your characters should often find him or her-self spending Willpower and eating Limit when their Virtues come into conflict (because Valor says you must accept this fight to the death, and Compassion says you can't just kill them; because how can you turn down a drinking contest, but Temperance says you know better; because Conviction says never, ever stop, no matter what, and Compassion says, But you cannot go this far.

A character with multiple high virtues should be incredibly intense and constantly conflicted.  They will hit their limit more often than other Exalted, but that's not as big a deal for a Dragonblood.  The Unconquered Sun deals with having all of his Virtues at 5 by never leaving his house long enough to notice what's happening in the world.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, my dragon-blood has Compassion 3, Conviction 5, Temperance 5, Valor 5 and to purify a tainted artifact he needs cap Compassion also to 5 (and it only happens after he forgives a deathlord from turning his home village into shadowland and turning every person dear to him to zombies which he had to cut down before burning and salting the village and forest around it, and then stab him with purified holy artifact which releases deathlord from torment of his unlife). The artifact is cool though as it allows turn all virtue channels into automatic successes (when used in thematic suitable situation) and has 'highest virtue amount dmg dice added in after you roll dmg after all soak and reducers had been applied'. Aggravated dmg vs creatures of darkness so it's pretty nasty 'bad touch' effect. Plus it sends all souls slain with the blade to Lethe and vaporizes bodies into ash (a 5th dot reaper daiklave). Weapon as tainted has all traits expect it judges targets send to oblivion or lethe depending who or what they are (and does wielder hate them).

Anyways a another player suggested I should play a high virtue char as paragon of knightly virtue (with Creation flavor). Kind of take inspiration from tales of Gabriel from king Arthur tales (the son of Lancelot who held and found Holy Grail). My char have questioned some his past although to make it happen needed hardcore proofs (like he was originally raised on Immaculate Faith but later discovered it was all bogus and now his intimacy switched from positive to negative in regards the order).

[meikle]

If you beat this Deathlord, you would have to fail a compassion check to kill it if you had Compassion 5.  You would probably hit a conflict between Conviction and Compassion and have to decide which one to blow WP on.

I don't know that a knight is a good example of a character with all of their virtues capped.  Knights were still normal people; someone with all of their Virtues at 5 will have gone well beyond that.  I don't think there are any real-life examples to look to for someone like this.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Even while compassion 5 would tell me leaving the said deathlord dooms lives of those under dragon-blood's protection? Leaving deathlord alive would cause loss of thousands more lives? More so, when my char could get insight how deathlord became to be deathlord and that he is basically tormented ghost who cannot let go from hatred and is so trapped in own suffering like my char was moment's ago (he is driven avenger at this point but idea is later him get free from his own dark hatred).

More so he has conviction screaming out for him finish one way or another the task what he started; to defeat deathlord for good. But now it would not be matter of personal satisfaction to his hatred, but compassionate act bring end to suffering to said deathlord and those whom he may plaque later (and end to those who suffer under his reign as targeted deathlord is Mask of Winters and so liberating Thorns from his tyranny).

More so, it's my char's motivation to vanquish all darkness. So it would go against motivation also to spare deathlord who is creature of darkness and even without that label; a representative of gloomy darkness of Neverborn who threatens slay Creation. I just arguing here that virtues can be read differently; it just depends what ideals were taught to mean valor, compassion etc. It explains why abyssal virtues are messed up compared standard ones.

[meikle]

Even while compassion 5 would tell me leaving the said deathlord dooms lives of those under dragon-blood's protection? Leaving deathlord alive would cause loss of thousands more lives? More so, when my char could get insight how deathlord became to be deathlord and that he is basically tormented ghost who cannot let go from hatred and is so trapped in own suffering like my char was moment's ago (he is driven avenger at this point but idea is later him get free from his own dark hatred).

Yes.  Because you are ultimately compassionate.  You cannot look beyond your compassion for this Deathlord.  If you want Greater Good compassion, you have to look to Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion -- you need magic to overcome this.  This magic isn't available to Dragonblooded, but only Infernals and Solars.

More so he has conviction screaming out for him finish one way or another the task what he started; to defeat deathlord for good. But now it would not be matter of personal satisfaction to his hatred, but compassionate act bring end to suffering to said deathlord and those whom he may plaque later (and end to those who suffer under his reign as targeted deathlord is Mask of Winters and so liberating Thorns from his tyranny).

This is why you have conflict.  Do you shut off your Compassion, or do you shut off your Conviction?  You have to choose one.  You can't have both, if your conviction tells you kill someone you've already beat.

More so, it's my char's motivation to vanquish all darkness.

If your character's motivation is to kill lots of people, then they probably should not have Compassion 5.  They're not compatible.

This isn't ambiguous; it's in the rules.  "A character must fail a compassion check to ... slay a defeated foe."  If you go around murdering ghosts, then you're failing compassion to "ignore the powerful abusing the helpless."  If you go around killing ghosts because they're ghosts, and they ask you to not kill them, then you have to fail Compassion to "ignore the pleas of the oppressed."

A character with 5 in every Virtue doesn't have the luxury of justifications.  Maybe they make them up, say this is my cause and it's what I live to do, but they know it's wrong, they know better, they don't want to do it.  That's why they spend Willpower: to drown out the part of their mind that is telling them this is not right.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I elaborate my char's motivation better; He does not destroy ghosts or demons because they are creature of darkness. He goes slay them if they are causing harm to others with their actions (so motivation is compassion driven as char cares about other people's blights with these beings). It also applies he would interfere with Guild merchant doing cruelties but he may use peaceful methods as he is aware how Guild works (so he would plea to merchant's greed over his compassion as he knows he has no compassion). But if something is unredeemably 'evil' as he views it and causes great deal of suffering, the soft gloves are off.

Anyways in the game where char is there was vote/decision in OOC was that the person who has two virtues (of same rating) conflicting can choose which virtue to follow without WP cost (so long they can justify their behavior properly or they have +2 more virtues pressing do one action while only one virtue would demand deny the action). If other virtue is superior (like Compassion 4 vs conviction 3), then compassion wins out and if want ignore compassion (and follow conviction) you need spend WP.

So high virtue people are conflicted often but they can choose what virtues they follow without burning WP to do so if they can justify their decision in satisfactory manner to virtue which they 'suppress' with other virtue (example delzhan person made promise not kill his wife's brother but brother then taunts him for duel so delzhan has both valor and temperance 3, so he chooses follow temperance to keep his word than follow valor to duel the brother). If single virtue is called to action they cannot ignore it if they get even 1 sux with it like normal.

At least this how in the other game it's understood.

[meikle]

You understand, though, that this is a house rule and not the way the game is designed.  Exalted, as it is designed, does force people with high virtues to often find conflict between them and I feel confident that that is an intentional design decision.  It certainly takes a lot of the bite out of a character who is a paragon of every virtue if there is a clause that says, "Except not when it's hard or unpleasant."  High virtues are designed to have drawbacks, though I can understand that some tables aren't interested in that kind of drama.

[AndyZ]

Everyone blissfully overlooks that Willpower has always been capped at 8 (unless a character has two virtues at 4) at character creation anyway.  Having two Virtues to constantly roll against / eat your WP and add limit is a pretty hefty cost for those last two dots.  The game describes such characters as "unreasonably intense."

Oh, definitely.  I'm not arguing the merits of taking such things.  It's more that, if you want your character to eventually go that route, you're far better off doing so at creation as per the standard rules.

Many games are designed so that you start out relatively normal and turn extreme.  Exalted is designed to encourage you to either start extreme or never go that route.

That's personally why I like the XP method.  If you want to start out with less Valor, for example, and build your way up throughout the game as more and more people die and you just can't bring yourself to stand idly by anymore, the hefty XP cost doesn't make that RP opportunity difficult.

It's kinda like how VtM is set up so that it's very difficult to go from being a sinner to a saint, because of the hefty XP costs of Humanity, and it reflects how the Beast drags you down to its level.

[Rajah]

Everyone blissfully overlooks that Willpower has always been capped at 8 (unless a character has two virtues at 4) at character creation anyway.  Having two Virtues to constantly roll against / eat your WP and add limit is a pretty hefty cost for those last two dots.  The game describes such characters as "unreasonably intense."

Heroes always are, though, and it's much less a problem if you just play your virtues consistently. If you want a conniving poisoner, don't max Valor.

If you beat this Deathlord, you would have to fail a compassion check to kill it if you had Compassion 5.  You would probably hit a conflict between Conviction and Compassion and have to decide which one to blow WP on.

This would be true if it was some random human mercenary captain, but a Deathlord is a monstrous undead in constant suffering and madness due to its state. Returning it to Lethe is not a mercy in the sense that euthanasia is arguably a mercy, it's a metaphysical hard truth. Leaving him alive would force the Compassion check because seriously, no one wins in that circumstance, especially not the guy you just beat. Ghosts and undead aren't people, and there are different considerations involved; death means something very different to them.

Also, and this is important, that's if the Deathlord is helpless before you. If he's alive and kicking, you're defending the innocent, and you can channel Compassion to destroy him. Slaying DEFEATED foes is the Compassion issue. You don't check to kill someone in a lethal situation. They have to surrender or be made unable to continue the fight; so long as they're trying to end you, you're within Compassion to respond.

That's personally why I like the XP method.  If you want to start out with less Valor, for example, and build your way up throughout the game as more and more people die and you just can't bring yourself to stand idly by anymore, the hefty XP cost doesn't make that RP opportunity difficult.

I hate it because it strongly discourages that kind of character growth at all; that's why flat XP was invented, so you're not punished for caring about anything but more magic. Want to represent an increasingly heroic swordsman? That's fine, but with the 21xp you payed to raise your Valor from 3 to 5, I bought two Melee charms and a new bit of artifact gear so I'm a way better swordsman. Attributes are even more of a punishment. Flat XP says, "the mortal stuff is not as powerful or interesting as the magic stuff, so let's let the cost reflect that" and encourages you to consider spending some of your XP to represent character growth rather than pure magical power. Now raising Valor to 5 is only 6xp, and that's not a bad deal. Spending 12xp on four Ability dots at any rank is okay and makes me feel like I can have a character who learns in play, rather than starting as an expert and descending ever-deeper into mysticism alone.

I'm not actually a fan of the pure XP method WITHOUT flat because it means you don't even have the grace of character creation to build a character without thinking about the dot costs. When every dot of everything has to be weighed against everything else, it creates pressure to design far less whimsically or unusually and focus on what's going to work. Exalted isn't FATE, you know? I don't like having to leverage Virtue against competence.

[meikle]

This would be true if it was some random human mercenary captain, but a Deathlord is a monstrous undead in constant suffering and madness due to its state. Returning it to Lethe is not a mercy in the sense that euthanasia is arguably a mercy, it's a metaphysical hard truth. Leaving him alive would force the Compassion check because seriously, no one wins in that circumstance, especially not the guy you just beat. Ghosts and undead aren't people, and there are different considerations involved; death means something very different to them.

I don't believe this is true.  Ghosts are absolutely people, as much as any other spirit is a person in Exalted.  The Deathlords are still alive because they want to be; they were given the option to become what they are, after all, and chose it willingly -- likewise, it's been suggested pretty straight-forwardly that a big part of why the Deathlords are so bad at their job is because they don't actually want to die and dive into Oblivion.  The Deathlords are not the Neverborn; save for the First and Forsaken Lion who is being intentionally tortured, they don't live in a state of constant suffering.  They're not suicidal.  The only reason most of them would fight to the death is because they can be reasonably certain that they'll just respawn (because Deathlords do that.)  Many of them would surrender before being killed, I think, because they're maybe a little crazy but they're also incredibly smart and value their (un)lives.

I don't think that characters who fight to their last dying breath are super realistic, and I think that a confrontation with a character as a significant as a deathlord would end without a post-combat event, though that's up to individual tables.  If I had a player at my table whose character was okay with using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion, though, I absolutely wouldn't let that character buy their Compassion up to 5 in the first place.

Heroes always are, though, and it's much less a problem if you just play your virtues consistently.

Even among the Exalted, characters with multiple virtues at 4+ are considered unreasonably intense.  I know people want to have their cake and eat it too, but the Virtues were designed to be constraining, not just a way to get more boom from your Willpower expenditures.

[Rajah]

I don't believe this is true.  Ghosts are absolutely people, as much as any other spirit is a person in Exalted.  The Deathlords are still alive because they want to be; they were given the option to become what they are, after all, and chose it willingly -- likewise, it's been suggested pretty straight-forwardly that a big part of why the Deathlords are so bad at their job is because they don't actually want to die and dive into Oblivion.  The Deathlords are not the Neverborn; save for the First and Forsaken Lion who is being intentionally tortured, they don't live in a state of constant suffering.

What they want doesn't matter. If the human mercenary captain wants you to kill him and end the Adorjan-instilled genocidal urge that drives him, you still check Compassion. However much ghosts and Deathlords want to live, they're Creatures of Death and they can't live; Lethe is not Oblivion, it's peace. Making a ghost deliberately should check Compassion. Letting one live is fine if it's a good ghost, but if you're enabling death and destruction - in the case of a Deathlord - the whole undead status and Lethe reality are different considerations than people get.

I don't think that characters who fight to their last dying breath are super realistic, and I think that a confrontation with a character as a significant as a deathlord would end without a post-combat event, though that's up to individual tables.  If I had a player at my table whose character was okay with using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion, though, I absolutely wouldn't let that character buy their Compassion up to 5 in the first place.

I don't think characters who fight to their last breath are unrealistic; if their Valor is 3 or higher, I'd say they're prepared to die fighting unless they have something important to think about or you're especially horrifying. Certainly below that hey're more likely to surrender and certainly even a Valor 5 Deathlord could beg for its life, but the fight-to-the-death scenario shouldn't be that uncommon. Mass combat has rout checks, maybe personal combat should have something similar for NPCs only?

Oblivion and Lethe are not similar things. A Reaper Daiklave of You're-Reincarnating-Now sounds like an awesome sword for a Compassion 5 character; no life taken is ever subjected to more suffering.

[meikle]

Oblivion and Lethe are not similar things. A Reaper Daiklave of You're-Reincarnating-Now sounds like an awesome sword for a Compassion 5 character; no life taken is ever subjected to more suffering.

His character is running around using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion.  It will only stop if he raises his Compassion to 5.  At my table, I would make "is comfortable with sending souls to Oblivion" preclude "raises compassion to 5."  This is not me confusing Oblivion for Lethe, this is me actually reading what Zaer wrote.

What they want doesn't matter.

When you can quote me something that says "By the way, ghosts aren't people and aren't subject to Compassion," I'll believe you.  However, "You're a ghost, so what you want doesn't matter, and I'm going to fucking kill you because you don't count" sounds like the opposite of a Compassionate kind of behavior.  Ghosts are single-souled beings, which makes them not-people I guess in the same way that the Unconquered Sun is not-a-person.

[AndyZ]

Oblivion and Lethe are not similar things. A Reaper Daiklave of You're-Reincarnating-Now sounds like an awesome sword for a Compassion 5 character; no life taken is ever subjected to more suffering.

Going to vehemently disagree with this.  Even if you're a Zenith who just sends everyone to Lethe, you can't claim that you're going to just kill everyone.  For one, that person might have family.  Are you going to go around killing everyone who knew the person so that Lethe will make them forget?

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well as pointer the Ashbringer, as artifact is called, judges killed target send to Oblivion or Lethe as tainted holy artifact (it would send deathlords to oblivion example without doubt, it can send mortal souls to Oblivion if sword judges person wicked asshole). Where as once you reach compassion 5 (while other virtues also maxed) will send now any soul to Lethe when artifact is purified (it can rob souls which are pre-destined go to Oblivion like deathknights are example or nephwracks).

Anyways I got now concept; A Defiler which takes some traits from Sylar. Either choosing Adorjan, TED or Malfeas as favored yozi (kind bit coin toss so I let folks give me suggestions).

When you can quote me something that says "By the way, ghosts aren't people and aren't subject to Compassion," I'll believe you.  However, "You're a ghost, so what you want doesn't matter, and I'm going to fucking kill you because you don't count" sounds like the opposite of a Compassionate kind of behavior.  Ghosts are single-souled beings, which makes them not-people I guess in the same way that the Unconquered Sun is not-a-person.

Anyone who has studied occult knows that ghosts are unnatural manifestation in the system where souls should go to Lethe. Because neverborn there is glitch in the system. Of course you should not hunt each and every ghost (example kind grandmother lingering arond to give guidance to still living grand children a high compassion person would let linger until she is ready to go). But if a ghost of a serial rapist/killer haunts and kills the living, the said person is still a monster in death as it was in life and so compassion driven person should seek out end of the suffering of others.

So far as I understand it's fine two virtues conflict and forces choose burn WP but the virtue itself should not double conflict with itself even with high ratings (and Compassion in theory can do that unless your forced choose how you define your Compassion to work in given scenario). A high compassion person would wait and consider their actions before they make judgment if the serial rapist/killer then vouches for redeeming itself. Where as lower compassion person does zero fucks about it.

[Rajah]

Going to vehemently disagree with this.  Even if you're a Zenith who just sends everyone to Lethe, you can't claim that you're going to just kill everyone.  For one, that person might have family.  Are you going to go around killing everyone who knew the person so that Lethe will make them forget?

Not even vaguely my intention, my apologies if it looked that way; I mean that, when you DO have to kill, it's done in the most merciful way possible.

His character is running around using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion.  It will only stop if he raises his Compassion to 5.  At my table, I would make "is comfortable with sending souls to Oblivion" preclude "raises compassion to 5."  This is not me confusing Oblivion for Lethe, this is me actually reading what Zaer wrote.

Right, my bad on the misread. Still, so long as he doesn't use the sword to send souls to Oblivion, I don't see why a Compassionate character wouldn't carry it if only to keep it safe from other hands. Artifacts can't be destroyed (without extraordinary effort) so if he's looking for a way to purify the weapon, what's not Compassionate about that? Carrying isn't using, and if he's Compassion 3 he doesn't want to be using it all the time. Tormented heroes with dark powers are a thing, you know? Maybe not our first conception of Dragonblooded but it's not like the Exalted shouldn't have range when it comes to design.

When you can quote me something that says "By the way, ghosts aren't people and aren't subject to Compassion," I'll believe you.  However, "You're a ghost, so what you want doesn't matter, and I'm going to fucking kill you because you don't count" sounds like the opposite of a Compassionate kind of behavior.  Ghosts are single-souled beings, which makes them not-people I guess in the same way that the Unconquered Sun is not-a-person.

Virtues are internal. What other people think or what is external. What anyone else wants is irrelevant to your Virtues. If your Abyssal husband wants you to humiliate and abuse him, you don't get a Compassion pass unless he invents some horrific Abyssal mindfu to warp your Intimacy into letting you do that. If a ghost wants to continue to eat people, it doesn't matter, sending it to Lethe is the right thing to do. Letting a ghost exist - not live, they're dead already - who doesn't want to hurt people is a grey area.

They're sentient, but they're incomplete echoes of people, not people. They don't have lives. They can't be slain. They don't enter Compassion as a value. Humans do. Demons do, sort of - if you know they just reform unless you Ghost Eating Technique them it's a grey area again - and the same with gods. But the undead are already, y'know.

[meikle]

Just because something is unnatural doesn't make it not a person.

If you feel that compassion conflicts with itself, you're arguing that the rules as they're written are wrong.  Compassion aids you in fighting for good; it also stays your sword against those who ask for mercy.  If you want it to stop doing that, you need magic.  That is how the game is designed.

Most ghosts are the former case, the not-actually-hostile-to-anyone variety.  They're just stuck, but they're alive, and usually they're that way because they want to be.  "It doesn't matter what they want because they're a glitch!" isn't something that someone with compassion would say, definitely not someone with Compassion 5.

Artifacts can't be destroyed (without extraordinary effort) so if he's looking for a way to purify the weapon, what's not Compassionate about that?

Artifacts can't be destroyed without intentional effort; that's an important distinction.  You can't break a daiklave by trying to kill the person wielding it; you can break a daiklave by trying to break a daiklave.

What anyone else wants is irrelevant to your Virtues.

You're trying to tell me that Compassion makes it okay to kill people because it doesn't care that they want to live.

Ghosts are undead.  The person that they were is dead.  The ghost is not dead, as evidenced by the fact that it is walking around and thinking and talking to you and living its life.  I mean, okay, have fun with your psychotic game of Exalted where Virtues don't matter and you ignore them to do whatever you want to do anyway.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Ok, my bad regarding the compassionate person not caring about glitch (as in effect compassion 5 exalt would care about raksha even if they are technically 'not real' and can change anytime from sweetheart into monstrous killers). But I still argue that virtue cannot conflict with itself twice or thrice over same issue.

Compassion 5 hero who faces a deathlord who it beats down to last inch of it's unlife and then deathlord begs for it's life (which in itself is epic achievement). The said deathlord is driven by vengeance, which you can partly sympathize as in first age the deathlord was a solar who was betrayed and then in death locked up in prison of souls and was tempted by neverborn to become a deathlord so they can become ghosts and so escape the place and then seek their vendetta and own goals.

But the deathlords serve neverborn and reason why you hunted him down is because it had caused lot of suffering on you, on Creation and on people whom you care about. As compassion 5 your heart bleeds upon witnessing suffering from strangers.

So your saying that Compassion 5 person should be burn WP to kill deathlord.....but in same token he needs burn WP to spare the deathlord (because your ignoring call of compassion to stop suffering of others) and then burn WP again each and every day of his life when he sees the deathlord continues cause suffering to other people! So my argument is this; virtue cannot conflict with itself and if there are more compassion driven reasons to slay deathlord than spare it alive, then you would not need check for compassion.

True that 'greater good' virtue enhancing charms exists, but I would argue they are only good to help ignore compassion when it's not conflicting with itself.

[Rajah]

Ghosts are undead.  The person that they were is dead.  The ghost is not dead, as evidenced by the fact that it is walking around and thinking and talking to you and living its life.  I mean, okay, have fun with your psychotic game of Exalted where Virtues don't matter and you ignore them to do whatever you want to do anyway.

You seem a little hostile here. I don't mean to offend.

I'm not saying that you're definitely wrong about this, I'm presenting an argument. Just an argument, it's not personal. Ghosts are under a chapter titled "the Dead" in Exalted Core, and they're explicitly not living; to my mind, that complicates questions that involve ending their existence and what it means. I think you mean living the way I mean existing. My argument is specifically that because they are not possessed of life, they are not valid considerations for the part of Compassion that deals with killing. When I say they're not people I don't mean they're not sapient and independent, I mean they're metaphysical echoes of things that were people and I feel that that differentiates them from that category. The ghost of Cindy Lou Tragicdeath is neither Cindy Lou Tragicdeath nor Queen Maryanne of the Happy Dead, even if it calls itself that; it's a ghost, a shadow.

I don't personally believe that believing the undead should be sent to their peaceful, natural return to the cycle of life and death qualifies my games as psychotic, or means that Virtue doesn't matter, or that I just ignore it and do what I want. Those are kinda harsh words. I'm saying, I don't think the undead ping Compassion. That's all.

[meikle]

Right... your argument is, "A soul isn't a person if it used to have a body that was destroyed."  The core of your argument is "Ghosts don't count because they're dead," as if in Exalted being dead stops someone from being a person.

Here is my stance:  If you need to justify why it's okay to kill someone/humiliate someone/ignore the pleas of someone impoverished because "they don't count," your character is probably not a good candidate for being a Compassion 5 character.

So your saying that Compassion 5 person should be burn WP to kill deathlord.....but in same token he needs burn WP to spare the deathlord (because your ignoring call of compassion to stop suffering of others) and then burn WP again each and every day of his life when he sees the deathlord continues cause suffering to other people! So my argument is this; virtue cannot conflict with itself and if there are more compassion driven reasons to slay deathlord than spare it alive, then you would not need check for compassion.

You could come up with a more creative way to handle the problem than concluding that murder is the only acceptable way to deal with a bad guy.  The Deathlords are people capable of thought and independent action.  They can be persuaded to change their behavior; killing them is not the only answer.  If your character can't think of solutions beside destroying things they don't like, they are probably not a Compassion 5 character.

Even Theion, the King of Kings, the Ruler of Everything, was able to be brought down by the Exalted host without resorting to killing him (unless you feel that the transition from Theion to Malfeas was the same as killing him, I guess, but that's probably a different discussion.)

[Rajah]

Right... your argument is, "A soul isn't a person if it used to have a body that was destroyed."  The core of your argument is "Ghosts don't count because they're dead," as if in Exalted being dead stops someone from being a person.

Half a soul. Yes, this is my argument. Being EDIT: a ghost (being dead covers a somewhat wider range of entities) in Exalted, in my opinion, stops you from being a person. You become a once-person. Humans are people; ghosts are not people.

Here is my stance:  If you need to justify why it's okay to kill someone/humiliate someone/ignore the pleas of someone impoverished because "they don't count," your character is probably not a good candidate for being a Compassion 5 character.

That's not really a helpful stance because I'm not justifying any of those things. No killing, no humiliating, no ignoring pleas. I think Compassion 5's specific ruling on killing helpless enemies counts for neomah and blood apes alike. I think it counts for tyrants and paupers. For gods and the Leech Gods, for Lilith and Desus, for the Yozis and the raksha...

...just not for the undead, because they're dead. You don't kill them, you send them to Lethe. They're beyond being killed. You make it sound like I'm advocating general genocide. I'm just saying ghosts are things that should not exist, and sending their souls to the peace all living things deserve is an act of Compassion, not its opposite.

[meikle]

Half a soul. Yes, this is my argument. Being dead in Exalted, in my opinion, stops you from being a person. You become a once-person. The Yozis are people; the Neverborn are not people. Humans are people; ghosts are not people.

One soul.  Humans in Exalted have two, and ghosts are one of them.  Other one-souled beings include the Incarna, all demons, and all elementals.  The distinction you're making is one you made up; it isn't drawn from the source material.  Ghosts don't have the same drive that humans do (that's the soul that turns into Hungry Ghosts and is separated from standard ghosts), but they're still people: they have cultures, concerns, hopes and dreams and goals.  The fact that they're separated from their flesh doesn't seem like a strong reason for them to be "not people"; ghosts are spirits, and in Exalted, spirits are people.  The fact that ghosts can innately channel essence means that the Adorjan Charm that lets Adorjan stop seeing humans as people doesn't apply to them, which is kind of fun to consider.

Again, same point I made to Zaer: it's fine to run your games this way if you like, but it is not the game according to the rules in the book.

I don't think "you shouldn't exist" makes it okay to kill someone -- and I don't think that splitting hairs on the topic of putting a conscious, self-determining creature down is the kind of thinking that a Compassion 5 character should embrace.

[Rajah]

One soul.  Humans in Exalted have two, and ghosts are one of them.  Other one-souled beings include the Incarna, all demons, and all elementals.  The distinction you're making is one you made up; it isn't drawn from the source material.

Again, same point I made to Zaer: it's fine to run your games this way if you like, but it is not the game according to the rules in the book.

Same point I've made before, perhaps more subtly: it's not the game according to your interpretation, which is fine, but I feel it's a perfectly valid interpretation to say "the Exalted Core and assorted supplements clearly delineate ghosts from being living beings" and then to follow with "therefore they cannot be slain". I don't mean to devalue your position, but you're taking an absolute stance which really isn't feasible because it's not crystal-clear. We have the language of slay and we have the language of no longer alive.

I would like to apologize for continuing the "what is a people" argument at all. That was a bad idea and I think you'll agree there's gonna be no way of determining that outside of personal metrics because Exalted never actually goes into that; it's like morality, something deliberately untouched. I feel your interpretation there is valid. I still like mine, but I see no issue with your conclusion from an objective stance. "What does it mean to slay" is the relevant question, specifically "can you do it to something that doesn't live."

My apologies for half soul. Half of a complete entity then, a category which includes only ghosts.

[meikle]

My apologies for half soul. Half of a complete entity then, a category which includes only ghosts.

A ghost is a complete hun soul or complete po soul.  Again: they're half of what makes a human, but humans are made of two complete things.

Again: Splitting hairs to say "It's okay to make this self-aware, self-determining creatures not exist anymore" is not something that reflects compassion -- and going through Lethe, not dying, is where Person A is wiped out and Person B is created.  There is a continuity of self in Exalted that ends with Lethe or Oblivion; that self remains in a ghost.

Anyway, we're not going to get anywhere.  In your game, you can have your Compassion 5 dudes who wander around doing ghosts Execution Style and I'll keep running mine where I hit players in the head with a newspaper for trying to pull that kind of thing.

[Zaer Darkwail]

You could come up with a more creative way to handle the problem than concluding that murder is the only acceptable way to deal with a person who is causing problems.

Okay, let's go through the list;

A) Imprison enemy all forever where it cannot cause any harm to anyone
= Compassion check as imprisonment to all eternity is cruel punishment on anyone. Deathlords do not age, they don't die nor they need eat nor drink. They do not die unless using charms or artifacts.

B) Forcibly redeem a person who seeks willingly cause harm and destruction in the world to achieve his goals (and I think most deathlords are willpower 8 and some even have conviction 5).
= Compassion check as breaking a will and forcing radical change upon someone is monstrously evil social-fu action in it's core even when it's done for good. As no matter of NMI can change deathlord from their motivation so you need UMI effects hammered on him.

C) Let his foe go freely and threaten with punishment if he does his actions again.
= Leads to go back square 1 and forces willpower burn each time a unredeemed deathlord strikes again (and he will and he seeks make you suffer greatly as revenge from humiliation it received) because your Compassion kicks you on the nuts being such a idiot in believing deathlord would learn it's lesson and take your threat seriously (or deathlord awaits until you die and then uses necromancy capture your ghost and make you his bitch, either way your screwed).

Any further ideas how solve the issue besides sending deathlord onto Lethe? A Lethe which cleanses his soul from all negative memories, gives bliss and then erases all traces of personality from soul and sends it to new life which can be better than the one deathlord led? Your saying a compassion 5 Zenith priestess who works as ghost exorcists should roll compassion each time she sends ghosts to lethe who have no reason to linger behind (or linger because of negative influence and they inflict harm to the living)?

Sending ghosts to lethe is not murdering them as they had been already killed/died. Sending ghost to lethe is considered ultimate act of goodness and considering it's the anima power of Zenith may hint that Sol Invictus (who is paragon of compassion of the setting) considers the act holy and compassionate act (he would not had given Zeniths such power if he would consider it as act of cruelty). Destroying ghost (and the soul) with ghost-eating technique would call for compassion check (as it does not send soul to peace but purely vaporizes it out from existence).

However there is clear canon (if take Ink Monkeys as canon and the White Wolf has said they consider stuff from Ink Monkeys as canon even if they did not write it) reference that Sol Invictus can create ghosts from virtuous people by making them as righteous dead (they reside in Daystar). Some souls could be promoted to be unique heroic spirits (a kind to angels in the setting) from especially heroic souls which Sol Invictus paid attention to before they died (also to consider; every solar is tied to go lethe directly and never become a ghost unless they made deals like deathlords did as their case is unique thanks Jade Prison situation). But it mentions if they fail their test to become one, they are send to Lethe so it means Sol Invictus himself considers the act going Lethe as divine blessing reward which comes at end of your life (before your reincarnated as a soul with no memories from last life).

So, god of virtue (which includes Compassion) more than one ways conveys his will and design that sending souls to lethe (or ghosts) is compassionate act.

[meikle]

Okay, let's go through the list;

Yes.  It's all very difficult.

You could just spend the one willpower and kill them.  That's why the option is there.  It's not expensive.  It's not demanding.  What it is is a way of saying, "My character doesn't want to kill people who have surrendered no matter how much they hurt other people, but she's going to grit her teeth and do it because even if she knows it's wrong, she can't justify the alternative."

The same way that a character with Valor 5 might spend that one willpower to not seek retribution on a six year old orphan who insulted her haircut.

For what it's worth, the Ink Monkeys stuff was written by White Wolf authors.  Two of the people who did that stuff are now the lead designers on Third Edition.  A lot of the Ink Monkeys stuff was terrible though and I'd say most of the Daystar stuff falls under that umbrella, but again, different discussion.

Compassion check as breaking a will and forcing radical change upon someone is monstrously evil social-fu action in it's core even when it's done for good.

Using Social Magic does not, on its own, trigger a Compassion check.  If your ST holds to the whole "All social magic is evil mind control," then I guess it might, but the whole "social magic is mind control" thing is probably one of the worst things to come out of Exalted 2e.

[Rajah]

A ghost is a complete hun soul or complete po soul.  Again: they're half of what makes a human, but humans are made of two complete things.

Again: Splitting hairs to say "It's okay to make this self-aware, self-determining creatures not exist anymore" is not something that reflects compassion.

As I just edited, this is not a winnable argument. I don't even think ghosts count as self-determining; they've been determined, in one sense, and while they have agency I'd even go so far as to question their free will - can an entity made from another make its own choices, or are they dictated by its nature? Will Cindy Lou Tragicdeath's ghost act in a way that she would not in the same circumstance, with one of her souls temporarily suppressed? It's philosophically interesting but I don't think either of us can be "right" about it, which is why I'm phrasing in questions and not statements now.

I would like to note that splitting hairs to figure out what the game means isn't the same as a character doing it; the character doesn't have this dilemma, I do, and I'm not dealing with real things, I'm setting the boundaries of a game of make-believe. I don't think Compassion enters into it until the issue is settled and a character has beliefs and actions.

Anyway, we're not going to get anywhere.  In your game, you can have your Compassion 5 dudes who wander around doing ghosts Execution Style and I'll keep running mine where I hit players in the head with a newspaper for trying to pull that kind of thing.

I could say something mean too, but I'm not, because I don't think that would be reasonable in this circumstance. I'd appreciate if you drop the snipes.

[Zaer Darkwail]

True, but I argue there are scenarios where compassion 5 person can kill other person if compassion compels him to do so (or backed both by compassion and conviction). Example; Sol Invictus has Compassion 5 (or 10 in full power mode) yet he was the one who send solars to slay primordials in dozens. He stopped Merela using Daystar against primordials not because he cared for primordial lives, but because he did not want mortals in Creation view sun fearfully (want it keep it as symbol of life and hope than destruction even if Daystar is well capable to cause dreadful destruction when employed as weapon).

So my argument that virtue cannot conflict with itself and force WP burn could be considered decent answer to explain why god of virtue could act upon his compassion without burning itself dry on WP. Understandably Sol Invictus presently is like a guy who focuses on his divine Xbox to ignore outside world as he knows he would be forced on act if he listens all suffering going on (he is like superman who has deafened himself from pleas of mortals as his own heart is still hurt from betrayal done by solars to him). Also dragon kings daily sacrificed humans on altars by ripping their hearts out as divine offering and he accepted those offerings.

Of course you can argue that 'Sol Invictus is a god and not a person whom is influenced by virtues different manner'. But then again he is god of virtue, how he can present virtues if he acts in alien manner with them?

[Zaer Darkwail]

Using Social Magic does not, on its own, trigger a Compassion check.  If your ST holds to the whole "All social magic is evil mind control," then I guess it might, but the whole "social magic is mind control" thing is probably one of the worst things to come out of Exalted 2e.

It does if social magic constitutes any lasting harm to the person to inflict stuff which makes them do things which they deep inside somewhere regret doing. Unless it's UMI which also creates enchanted intimacy which case they do not feel regret but any compassionate person who is sane knows that it's mind-bending free will robbing magic and compassionate person cares about free will of others. Example Desus is perfect example of using social magic against Lilith; she could not lift a finger against him while he kicked her to the guts as he was sadist who got sexual kicks in harming people.

More so he inflicted social magic upon others turn blind eye on Lilith's suffering and so isolate her among heroes.....so she felt abandoned by exalted host and alone in her nightmare and all that was done by social magic. If you say that sort of action does not provoke compassion then it should not get provoked when your about murder a family who rebels against your reign as solar (who is compassion 5 without any virtue changing charms).

[meikle]

The Unconquered Sun stopped the war when the Primordials surrendered; that was not a Compassion issue.  If he'd looked on and given his assent to the Exalted to kill them all, then yeah, that would make sense.

The point here is that you will trigger Compassion and need to fail the check to kill someone who is at your mercy.  When the war started, the Primordials were not at the Sun's mercy -- and when it ended, they weren't at his mercy, either (they were at the Exalteds' mercy.)

As you've already shown, there are other ways to handle this situation than "kill the prisoner / let them continue to kill people," you've just dismissed them all because they're a lot of work and difficult to accomplish.  Such is the plight of playing a character with a virtue at 5.  High virtues are designed to create difficult decisions.  It isn't supposed to be easy.  Keep your virtues low if you don't want them to put you into difficult situations -- this is why most people have all of their Virtues at 2, and why Exalted only need to have one at 3.  It's easier that way.  If you want to be a paragon of virtue, then you must accept that sometimes your virtues will get in the way of doing things the easy way.

It does if social magic constitutes any lasting harm to the person to inflict stuff which makes them do things which they deep inside somewhere regret doing.

This is your personal bias, and isn't reflected in the source material.

The Exalted did not convince Theion to surrender by bombing him with social magic.  Your game can and must be occasionally extend beyond the mechanics if you want it to be enjoyable.  If nothing else, it will be nice to have 3e come and wipe the virtues off the table and bring in social combat changes that put an end to the "social combat is evil mind control" meme.

[Rajah]

The book only explicitly covers four circumstances - slaying the defeated, ignoring the oppressed/impoverished, ignoring the powerful abusing the helpless (really isn't that the same as the second one?), publicly (not privately) humiliate a friend of lover.

The Virtues aren't insanity. Epic Zeal/Cosmic Transcendence are insanity. You don't have to beat a child to death for insulting you, you could tell his parents he was a rude kid, or insult him back, or make a really scary face - "retribution" isn't defined, but I'm pretty sure it's not meant to imply "draw sword and decapitate". You have to fail Temperance to show bias in a matter of importance; even at Temperance 5, you can show bias to your friends in lesser endeavors. Virtues are heroic and meant to apply first and foremost to heroic circumstances. They don't make you a terrible crazy person, they make you epic. Most everyday experiences aren't covered for the very good reason it's not a behavior guide or morality meter, it's a Dramatic Moment Resolution Aid.

Okay, let's go through the list;

A) Imprison enemy all forever where it cannot cause any harm to anyone
= Compassion check as imprisonment to all eternity is cruel punishment on anyone. Deathlords do not age, they don't die nor they need eat nor drink. They do not die unless using charms or artifacts.

It depends on the nature of the enemy and the imprisonment. Putting a Deathlord in a cage would be a check in my estimation; putting it in an Elsewhere realm it could rule as it saw fit would not. CRUEL punishment is separate from punishment, to me.

B) Forcibly redeem a person who seeks willingly cause harm and destruction in the world to achieve his goals (and I think most deathlords are willpower 8 and some even have conviction 5).
= Compassion check as breaking a will and forcing radical change upon someone is monstrously evil social-fu action in it's core even when it's done for good. As no matter of NMI can change deathlord from their motivation so you need UMI effects hammered on him.

No, not even if you use UMI. They'll feel horrified, but rewriting someone isn't evil in the sense that torturing them is; changing all their boundary conditions is philosophically the same as killing them, but Compassion draws a distinction. Maybe because murder is visceral.

Using UMI for other purposes might ping.

C) Let his foe go freely and threaten with punishment if he does his actions again.
= Leads to go back square 1 and forces willpower burn each time a unredeemed deathlord strikes again (and he will and he seeks make you suffer greatly as revenge from humiliation it received) because your Compassion kicks you on the nuts being such a idiot in believing deathlord would learn it's lesson and take your threat seriously (or deathlord awaits until you die and then uses necromancy capture your ghost and make you his bitch, either way your screwed).

You don't have to check Compassion when the Deathlord continues to do evil. Only if you do evil. So technically you can do this.

It's a bad idea, though.

Lethe

Is always the best choice. Thank you for the examples. I think that should lay the issue to rest of whether or not sending a soul to Lethe is Compassionate.

[Zaer Darkwail]

You still dismiss social magic issue with Desus vs Lilith scenario, but I understand the dislike that all social magic is considered evil mind control (I myself would not count social magic ask compassion roll if it allows spare lives; like placate angry horde of beastmen with performance charm which dazzles them over to become your worshipers and follow your doghma which is more peaceful). But if we strictly follow the virtues the social magic would always call on compassion roll.

So in my opinion; virtue rules (and how they conflict and force m´burn WP depending how virtuous you are) were poorly written. Example temperance hinders in lying but when taking RL examples the best liars are those who have strict self-control.

[AndyZ]

The issue here is that the rules attempt to quantify something which has no general consensus even RL.  The laws of morality are incredibly diverse, and if people can't agree whether a fetus is a human life, similar issues will arrive about a hun or po spirit, or any number of quasi-human entities.

This has been an issue with White Wolf since Vampire, though it's not kept solely to White Wolf.  I've had a DM in a 3.5 game who took my paladin's powers because she attacked a thief who continued stealing after her multiple warnings didn't take hold.  I've had STs who claimed that a vampire drinking blood was an injury to a person and thus a Humanity 8 degeneration.

In the end, it comes down to ST fiat.

Oh, and Zaer, the reason Lilith couldn't do anything to Desus was because he's her Solar Mate, not so much because of social magic.

[meikle]

You still dismiss social magic issue with Desus vs Lilith scenario, but I understand the dislike that all social magic is considered evil mind control (I myself would not count social magic ask compassion roll if it allows spare lives; like placate angry horde of beastmen with performance charm which dazzles them over to become your worshipers and follow your doghma which is more peaceful). But if we strictly follow the virtues the social magic would always call on compassion roll.

I dismiss it because the issue is not how Desus accomplished his goals (using social magic), it's what he accomplished (slavery) and why he did it (because he's a sadist who likes to hurt people.)

A sword isn't evil just because you can stab innocent people with it.

The Virtues aren't insanity. Epic Zeal/Cosmic Transcendence are insanity. You don't have to beat a child to death for insulting you, you could tell his parents he was a rude kid, or insult him back, or make a really scary face - "retribution" isn't defined, but I'm pretty sure it's not meant to imply "draw sword and decapitate".

I used the vague 'retribution' for a reason.  I didn't say anything about decapitating kids.

[Rajah]

*shudder*

Alignment.

So in my opinion; virtue rules (and how they conflict and force m´burn WP depending how virtuous you are) were poorly written. Example temperance hinders in lying but when taking RL examples the best liars are those who have strict self-control.

HA! I never thought about that - Temperance shackling honesty to self-control and to non-bias is definitely a bit of a clusterfuck, isn't it? But yeah, they're an idea that maybe could have used a lot more wordcount and wiggle room. Still, I think an open-minded approach makes them workable.

Oh, and Zaer, the reason Lilith couldn't do anything to Desus was because he's her Solar Mate, not so much because of social magic.

He beat her until she miscarried. Twice. I'm pretty sure "Solar Mate" doesn't cover that one. In any case, it's explicit that she could never tell anyone or fail to kill anyone who found out because of his UMI. He locked her in a mental prison not unlike the Ebon Dragon Charm, Our Little Secret.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Desus used social magic disguise his personal life actions to appear saint and make others 'deaf and blind' to Lilith's blight. I remember in some canon material Lilith actually describes Desus using social-fu to inflict cruelty on her indirectly (by isolating her likely). Desus acts may had been private physical beating and Lilith's in-action may had come from intensely strong solar bond (rating 5), but then again there is charm which forces this sort bond to any lunar mate (to extend even force lunar come to you). Plus Lilith murdered anyone who found it out so it smells pretty strongly a UMI effect (and can explain why she so badly wants murder each and every incarnation of Desus).

But as said, virtue conflict rules were not likely so thoroughly written and so directly following them leads to point where most players avoid embracing higher tier of virtues. So the usual golden ruling 'if something does not work/dismiss gaming fun if followed according rules, change or ignore them' applies there.

[meikle]

Yes.  You are just reinforcing my point: Desus did terrible things with magic, but using magic was not why these things were terrible.

For what it's worth, the description of a Compassion 5 character is "Always spares their enemy's life."  Instead of a Deathlord, change the sample character to an Abyssal (so, a character who cannot be argued to be 'undead', is absolutely alive.  Or an Infernal, or a god, or whatever -- anything that can't be written off with "Lethe makes it okay to kill things.")

[AndyZ]

But as said, virtue conflict rules were not likely so thoroughly written and so directly following them leads to point where most players avoid embracing higher tier of virtues. So the usual golden ruling 'if something does not work/dismiss gaming fun if followed according rules, change or ignore them' applies there.

That's an ST's call, not a player's.

[meikle]

That's an ST's call, not a player's.

I think that it makes high virtues more interesting and fun, not less, if they mean something more than "I get 1.5 successes more when I channel a virtue!"

[Rajah]

For what it's worth, the description of a Compassion 5 character is "Always spares their enemy's life."  Instead of a Deathlord, change the sample character to an Abyssal (so, a character who cannot be argued to be 'undead', is absolutely alive.  Or an Infernal, or a god, or whatever -- anything that can't be written off with "Lethe makes it okay to kill things.")

It is totally a Compassion check to kill those folks after they're defeated. Agreed 100%. For what it's worth, it's not Lethe that makes it okay to kill things (to me) it's the nature of a ghost.

[Zaer Darkwail]

That's an ST's call, not a player's.

Aye, that's true. Likely decision done so players could have more fun (ofc not made so the players can ignore virtues whenever they want as virtues need roleplayed still properly).

Yes.  You are just reinforcing my point: Desus did terrible things with magic, but using magic was not why these things were terrible.

For what it's worth, the description of a Compassion 5 character is "Always spares their enemy's life."  Instead of a Deathlord, change the sample character to an Abyssal (so, a character who cannot be argued to be 'undead', is absolutely alive.  Or an Infernal, or a god, or whatever -- anything that can't be written off with "Lethe makes it okay to kill things.")

Aye, social magic in itself is not evil but ways how it's used is evil. Compassion as rules written should ping always when you use social magic because anyways robbing free will is not a compassionate act.

Anyways abyssal can be monstrous as a deathlord but I agree compassion 5 person has harder time to kill abyssal as it means doom their souls to oblivion and they are living people who are infused with necrotic energy (where as deathlord is a ghost who needs to be send to Lethe as he should had been originally intended as all solar souls go lethe without delay time). That's why purified Ashbringer which 'overwrites' such fate by design makes it perfect tool for compassion 5 guy when fighting abyssals who cannot be redeemed (as their souls go Lethe instead but it would still ping but being less harsh decision to slay them). As tainted Ashbringer would send souls either lethe or oblivion (not by choice of wielder but judged by the sword itself). A compassion 5 char cannot use tainted Ashbringer because it holds 50% chance doom soul to eternal void. But Compassion 3 can with Conviction 5 but to purify it you need to achieve perfect virtuous nature while wielding it and use the item in it's intended purpose; slaying and purifying evil.

Background wise artifact was once property of a fire aspect lover of a Zenith in a first age who worked as Zenith's crusader. A blade blessed by Zenith by giving it spark of power from Sol Invictus through the Zenith. So that's why opened this whole can of worms known as 'how virtues should work despite how they are written by the rules'.

So as said, there is conflict in canon material where Compassion 5 should not work as canon material presents a virtuous person doing something (prime example being Zenith's anima power which overwrites a soul's choice to be ghost or go lethe and instead 'doom' soul go to lethe despite what soul haves to say in said matter).

[meikle]

robbing free will

Again, I do not thing that UMI is meant to be seen as 'robbing people of their free will'; that's an outgrowth of the playerbase's reading of UMI, and it's explicitly something that the authors have opposed and are doing their best to strike from the game moving forward.  The people in the Exalted setting don't treat UMI as mind control, for the most part -- mostly because it makes playing social characters who aren't categorically evil impossible.

The woman who wrote the rules has this to say:

It's fine to conclude that it's mind control, but please don't categorize it so quickly that you prevent the rules from working. I chose to locate the super-convincing effects in the target's mind so that players could always *choose* to say, "I think that's mind control, and I reject it!"---but I think that it's vital to be able to recognize phenomena that are mind control or are not mind control based on circumstances, personalities, and how the people involved choose to interpret them at the time of the effect.

When you declare all UMI to be mind control, you are doing exactly what she asks you not to: categorizing it so quickly that you prevent the rules from working.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I agree the strong influential charms are worded wrong way and term UMI is bad for them as it directly classifies each and every UMI as 'will freedom robbing' effect.

But it does not change that any will freedom robbing effect still pings compassion roll, so even if target is not aware of the effect the user is aware what they are doing. So wanting change social-fu to less compassion pinging climate you need entirely remove all strong influential charms from UMI category and give a new label for them which does not anyway say 'strongly affects target's minds, even against their will to point their psyche is pressured to struggle against it's persuasive power'. The new label should be instead 'sparking emotions inside the target which target needs use actively rebel against their own emotions to resist them'. So it does not sound person is burning WP to resist a charm but resist themselves.

[meikle]

I can agree with that, I guess.  I think that it is healthier just to treat mental influence that way, because that is generally how it is treated in the background of the game -- there is no real issue in Exalted where people freak out whenever UMI is used against them, so whatever it takes to make the mechanics reflect how the people in the setting actually behave is what ought to be done.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Aye and if I would be ST I would relax the virtue rules bit so playing two or three virtue maxed char is not willpower burning experience (but conflict and strong passions need played out still) and that all UMI's are not meant screamed about. Some UMI's sound more inspirational (my own idea for new label for some social-fu charms) than mind wiping effects (there are charms which are UMI and do terrible things on person's psyche; whole Golden Years Tarnished Black tree is all about mind fuck people and some other TED charms).

[meikle]

I don't see a reason for having lots of high virtues without the conflict between them.  I think that it adds texture; without those conflicts, I'm not sure what makes high virtues distinct from lower ones.  I want to see people struggle with the decision to slay the bad guy (and fulfill their conviction) or let her go (and appeal to their compassion.)  I want the Unconquered Sun to surrender to the Primordial Host and offer himself as a hostage in exchange for saving a single mortal life.  I want those hard decisions for heroes.

There is definitely UMI that is terrible and can serve no purpose other than hurting people, and the Ebon Dragon's magic often does it in really petty ways.  I'm okay with that; just like some blades can be used to kill tyrants, others are used by inquisitors to flay 'heretics'.  Being stuck in the category 'sharp things' isn't what makes the latter terrible.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Conflict is okay but my issue is that 'it forces burn willpower constantly' is the main issue with rules as written regarding virtue conflict.

Would make more sense 'you loose one channel of suppressed virtue' instead. Meaning if you ignore compassion you loose channel of compassion without any gain from doing so. So person who repeatedly bastardizes his virtue and if he empties his pool with a action which is against the virtue, you loose permanently a dot of that virtue (so person who repeatedly ignores his compassion even if he starts with compassion 5 means he eventually sinks to compassion 1).

So part of solar madness from first age was that when solars repeatedly started ignore their former high virtues and 'corroded' their virtuous sides and becoming ugly petty individuals. Ignoring once or twice your high virtue does not cause problems (as they replenish over time) but constant ignorance eventually reduces virtue in the person.

[meikle]

That's a much harsher penalty than willpower expenditure.  There are very few ways to regain Virtue channels except for completing a story; it's really easy to get Willpower back!

I would go the other direction: the Solar madness didn't come from becoming petty, it came from becoming too virtuous, less willing to put themselves in check.  I think it makes sense with them getting really haughty about their place as the rulers of Creation.  Either way works to lead things down the road to the Usurpation, though.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I myself find it harder regain WP or overall I dislike besides activating charms and resist UMI I have to burn also WP resist urges of my virtues. So overall either there must be different price tag resist virtues (besides WP) or there is no penalty at all.

[meikle]

Remember that any 2-dot stunt (that is, any stunt that incorporates an element of the environment) can restore a dot of Willpower.  Some STs house rule 2-dot stunts to be much more difficult to get han they are by the book though.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Aye and that is one reason why I dislike whole 'just burn WP ignore virtue' argument as WP is precious resource which should not fall under 5 unless invite CIFA moment to your char.

Anyways trying move off from virtue discussion I think my char is defiler with Adorjan favored as he has very intense curiosity about everything and thoroughly and methodically study any subject until he bores himself. In another token he likes do experiments to perfect human race to be more efficient and perfect who are strictly control of their emotions but in proper times can unleash intense emotions express themselves.

[Rajah]

As the game "Ashes to Ashes" seems to have been locked, I am now considering throwing my hat into the ring to run a third game in addition to Jarick and Pumpkin's. We'll paint the site green! Anyone from Ashes to Ashes would have (slightly) preferential welcome, essentially a tiebreaker if it came down to their applications against someone of roughly equal app quality.

I'm open to setting ideas - I'm considering An-Teng, leaning heavily on its Indochina versus British Raj conflicts, as well as its dark Lovecraftian undercurrents of secret horror devouring both sides, and expanding that out into the rest of Creation as the troupe grew. I would be looking primarily at a Perfect Circle of mixed Infernal, Solar, and Abyssal Exaltations, and encourage applicants to compete for the slots they actually want rather than going with less enjoyable ideas just to get in - nothing ventured nothing gained, right? It would be fully 2.5e, which is bad for Infernals, I know; however I am very cooperative when it comes to custom material, so no one should feel too straitjacketed by the halfway-revised state of Exalted. Lunar Exalted will be additionally accepted; slots for this are entirely determined by the number of Solar-tier Exalted who want mates. You can apply together, but that means if one of you doesn't make the cut neither of you will.

I'd be using most of my ideas from the OP; the Unconquered Sun is gone, and An-Teng is lit by the efforts of the Golden Lord and the Realm, who have entered into an uneasy partnership of sorts against the rising darkness of the Pale Mistress and the hungry enemies of all mortal men. Lillun exists as the Coryphee of Hope (Hell's bubbly cheerleader-behemoth) and the Reclamation is a forgotten cause; Hell has shattered its alliances and become once more a bitter but disparate realm desperate to carve out what little it can of the world for its own. The Lunar-Solar Bond is a mutual vulnerability rather than a Background; both Lunars and their Solar/Abyssal/Infernal mates suffer halved DVs and MDVs against each other. Lunars will further be using the Terrifying Argent Witches variant.

Alternatively - people can vote on it if they like - we could try a post-Gunstar Autocthonia setting with most of the same rules; the Gunstar has crashed somewhere in the Titan-ruled Spiral, the Deliberative is dead, the Primordials seem too insane to be doing anything coherent, most of the Gunstar has gone dark, Luna's horrific sisters hunt between the stars...and everywhere the dark is left too long unlit, there is the whisper of Gremlin Syndrome, of the truly unspeakable.

Mechanically we would be using Solar costs for everyone, flat XP (Attributes always cost 6xp or 5 favored; Abilities always cost 4xp or 3 favored, et cetera) and an XP-buy system instead of Bonus Points. Essence would start at 4; Willpower would start at 10 and could be "bought down" for 3xp a dot, which cannot be raised later except by Charms that increase maximum Willpower. No Merits or Flaws, Revlid's Mutations, Revlid's Crafting, some revision to grappling, probably some other stuff. Questions or comments welcome; this is only a sketch at the moment.

[RSGAlex]

I'll consider throwing a character up for contention, for either idea. Admittedly, I have a bit of a preference for base Creation (as evidenced by my main character idea right now being based in Creation), but I might still put my hat into contention if it's Gunstar. I'd just need to read more and come up with a good concept for it.

For base Creation (this was written with an eye on An-Teng, but I can re-work bits), my first thought was a man from a cadet house of the Realm, somewhat skilled bureaucratically, but unfortunately unexalted (Possible name Mehasid Ferid). As part of some politics surrounding a marriage between his house and a minor house of one of the Great Houses, his position working for the Golden Triumvirate in the Lap would be given to his new in-laws to sell to their parent house, and he'd be re-assigned to the next available place that he'd be of use. (A great deal more favor trading and bribes were involved, but that was the essence of the deal.)

Much to his surprise, he was quickly re-assigned to a relatively minor (in both importance and work load) position in An-Teng. In the years since his arrival, he's committed a few heresies that would get him killed, taken the second breath, and gained a rather favorable reputation among the local Tengese, mostly the nobility.

The heresies center around a trio of Prayer Wheels of Sextes Jylis, one small, two large, and only one of the large ones officially belonging to him. The one that officially did belong to him was given as a gift to Santeris, the local immaculate, from his house to the Order. The small one was given to Abbot Foulu, to be remade into a Prayer Wheel of the Golden Lord, which would presumably shower light and protection from ghosts and night-spirits across a large-ish building. The remaining wheel lies disassembled, part of his now somewhat abandoned plan to slowly reclaim the City of Dead Flowers.

His second breath and reputation both stem from more or less the same people and series of events. Soon after his arrival in An-Teng, Ferid met up with three old school friends (and the uncle of a friend, although the uncle was in the military and not the civil service), and he abused the small monetary windfall that his family granted him to help them out. Thus the tax collectors always had the proper amount of money and goods, even if the nobles and peasants didn't actually pay the proper amounts. The fang-leader always had more booze to splash around, even if it was cheap. The port inspector was able to offer a small discount to certain favored ships, if they'd go to a certain also favored place for supplies.

Until about seven years ago, the actual monetary amounts were quite small, as he used most of his money to support a proper life-style and (more importantly) make more money. That he used a great deal of money to acquire rare and potent medicines to save the life of the youngest daughter of the noble family he rented just after acquiring an even greater amount of money through backing an up and coming Guild merchant was a coincidence. Ferid believes (almost certainly incorrectly) that the attack was satrap Jor's way of sending a message to the upstart mortal about meddling in things he shouldn't have.

Ferid's response was to become even more lavish in his spending, hoping that when the axe did fall on him, he'd have enough favors owed to him that his beneficiaries would ... do something. Ferid never did plan well when angry. In a stroke of irony worthy of being in a play, Jor was aware of Ferid's spending, and benefited from most of it enough that the mortal gained a few audiences with the satrap.

It was the fifth of these little audiences that lead directly to Ferid taking the second breath. Jor believed the mortal to have been his bought man (the scion of Ragara helped Ferid keep more of his money and still gain favor with his family by imposing arbitrary 'taxes' on the goods Ferid sent back, and letting Ferid keep most of the money), utterly without dangerous ambition, and utterly unimportant other than as his perfectly unwitting catspaw against Shuri the Scarlet.

If Ferid's nerve hadn't utterly left him, it's likely that both he and Jor would be dead; Ferid from Jor's blade, and Jor from Ferid's poisoned wine. Other than that, it was a perfect plan, one that would have left Jor's reputation in shambles (albiet utterly by accident) and Ferid a martyred hero.

But he didn't serve the wine, and so three years of planning went to waste. If not for a chatty locust-like demon, it would have also been a life gone to waste.

He ran with the second chance it offered, although the Satrap is safe until another perfect opportunity can be found. Or not. There's bound to be some use for the dragon blood.

....


You know, this really got away with me. I was only planning on writing two paragraphs, three tops.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Rajah: I have interest on your game, although your version of Gunstar I have not much interest in (I would prefer more Shards as written Gunstar setting).

Probably rolling a infernal in that setting and also would welcome a lunar mate.

[ChaoticSky]

i could also be interested! though may i suggest a new thread?

[Cessali]

Expect new threads as the various STs get their stuff finalized.  This'll be a convenient notification point until then!  :D

[Black Howling]

I still have interest in playing in this game, if Pumpkin Seeds is still thinking of ST'ing. No offense Jarick, or Rajah, but my Lady has talked her up.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

:: blushes::

[Lady Lunarius]

I still have interest in playing in this game, if Pumpkin Seeds is still thinking of ST'ing. No offense Jarick, or Rajah, but my Lady has talked her up.

*Peeks in* Tattle tale....*peeks back out*

[Cessali]

Flight of the Broken-Winged Crane recruitment thread is up.  Take a look, take a think, put a bit out if you're interested.