Ignorance and Racism from the voters

[Inerrant Lust]

After perusing through Wikipedia's entries of the American presidential candidates and vice presidential candidates, much to my surprise, I found it fairly illuminating. In fact, it softened my heart against McCain to some degree. The discussion pages were not afforded such dignity.

Barack Obama is not arab. He's not islamic. Hussein is as common a name as John and indicative of nothing. Throwing his full name around like it was on sale is flat-out petty.

Even if he was islamic or arab, that is NOT a bad thing, you intolerant dickholes. :P

It shoulden't even matter. Hell, an arab president would do wonders for foreign policy.

I don't blame McCain for this, I blame his bumpkin base (to be fair, the democratic inverse of republican bumpkin = head-up-his-own-ass college liberal) and the people who support him that are willing to go to any lengths to win.

Granted, I commend him for attempting to diffuse the hatred at his recent rallies, but I haven't seen any admonishment for Palin's inflaming statements and her subseqent lack of restraint for the audience. I am being optimistic and assuming that she has been reigned in behind private doors.

All in all, I shudder at the thought of ignorant racists deciding the fate of our nation. Honestly? I don't think McCain will brutally and incompetently bumfudge us all like Bush. But if he's going to win, let it be by the votes of people who aren't morons that make decisions based on hatred, with said hatred based upon ignorance and malevolent wishful thinking.

[Methos]

Hussein is a common name but only if you're arab. And if Americans are a bit hung up on Arabs and Muslims, it might have something to do with them having flown a plane into the World Trade Towers. If lingering dislike and paranoia are all the common people take out of that, that's really quite tolerant. Not so long ago people would have picked up pitchforks, torches and began dispensing vigilante justice.

[Inerrant Lust]

Hussein is a common name but only if you're arab. And if Americans are a bit hung up on Arabs and Muslims, it might have something to do with them having flown a plane into the World Trade Towers. If lingering dislike and paranoia are all the common people take out of that, that's really quite tolerant. Not so long ago people would have picked up pitchforks, torches and began dispensing vigilante justice.

Regarding the name Hussein, So?

I know of a blonde, blue-eyed girl whose named was pronounced Ally. With a vaguely arab-sounding name, she once got called out of her seat before a flight because someone pronounced her name, "Ah-lee [Something :P]'

My name is thickly irish, but I've got twice as much german blood in me than irish.

How many chinese adopted kids have english names?

How many slaves were given english names?

A name means absolutely nothing. Last I checked, Kenya was in subsaharan Africa.

And if Americans are a bit hung up on Arabs and Muslims, it might have something to do with them having flown a plane into the World Trade Towers.

...And that's not racism?  ???

Are the actions of a dozen or so men now indicative of an entire race of people? It's nonsense, and unjustifiable. I'm not pointing a figure at you; I assume you're speaking of the people's beliefs, and not your own.

But I doubt your claims about vigilante justice. Mobs do not form of their own volition; they require someone to rouse up emotions and manipulate the people into thinking singularly. This has been precisely what extremist americans have been doing in the past 7 years, and it has, unfortunately, worked. The 'Arab = Evil' belief has gotten far too much power.

Though perhaps not by McCain himself, but his supporters have definately been pushing the 'Obama = Arab, and thus, Evil' angle, and pushing it hard.

It's despicable intolerance and I'm sick of hateful pundits and campaigners pulling the heart strings of emotional americans for their own gain.

[The Overlord]

In a perfect world, I'd round up all the ignorant bumpkins and the terrorists (Arab or otherwise) and ship all their sorry asses to some forgotten valley deep in the Antarctican interior.

I'd give them all the guns and explosives they want and let them have at each other. Problem solved. 10,000 years later fossil hunters would find all the mummified bits and remains and wonder WTF happened. They might even find room for a good joke over it.



It's far from a perfect world though, because every corner of the world seems capable of exporting assholes.

Actually I think McCain handled the dumb bitch who said 'he's an Arab' at his event pretty professionally. Afterward they could take her backstage and let the secret service give her a sharp slap upside the head when they're done working over the morons that yelled treason and kill him.


I agree McCain may not be responsible for the ignorance, at least not openly, but I think he's condoning it among his supporters. This should be a lesson to anyone who can still back the GOP at this point; they've lost their majority in the rest of Washington and now they can feel their chokehold on the White House slipping. And they're not going to go graciously, no they're going out kicking and screaming and clawing uncivilly every inch of the way. The GOP has finally shown the world its true ugly face.

Does this mean the Democrats are angels? Oh hell no, but the fact they put a woman and a black man up as their chief candidates this time around, they're at least that much more forward thinking. There's a reason the simple minded bumpkins vote for these 'straight talkers'. They believe in a black and white world and only white is right.

We might as well fess' up to the reality; these idiots are a much larger threat to the security and welfare of our nation than any terrorist lurking in a cave or village halfway around the world. Keep on this Crusader mindset that anything even remotely Arab or Muslim is bad and you'll eventually get us into a war that will make Iraq look like a drunken backyard fistfight in Kentucky that gets televised on C.O.P.S. One that night even go nuclear.


Bumpkins in general; just be sure to send your own families to fight it. The less of you on the planet the better.

[Moondazed]

Anyone seen Idiocracy (imdb, wikipedia)?  I wish that it were further from the truth of where we're headed... ;)

[Sherona]

Frankly..I would rather have no woman in the race for the White House, then a token woman. Thats all Palin ever was, the Token woman to help try and secure the female voters. Number One, thats a slap in the face to voters to think we are that stupid. Number two, It does no good for a woman to make it to the White House if that woman is clearly not the right person for the job. She will screw up and then people will fall into "Ah, last time we voted a woman in look what happened!" even if they are too politically correct to say it out loud.

with a 8 point lead in october, Obama has pretty much cinched the white house. The only president to ever come back from such a deficit this close to election time was Ronald Reagan, and lets face it, McCain is no Reagan.


That all being said, I am always surprised that people can be shocked by 'dirty campaigning'. It happens in every election, one opponent attacks the other's credibility with not Un-truths exactly, but exxaggerated truths, or half truths. So the fact that apparently somewhere someone is touting he is arabic or Islamic.


The fact of the matter is, I haven't seen any major campaign ad stating he was Arabic, Islamic, or Hussein-sympathizer. Not since he first made it to the senate, and there was some rumor/buzz that he was going to take his oath on the Quran instead of the Bible. Haven't heard a peep about his faith/nationality in this Presidential Race, but granted I haven't followed this one as close as I have others.

Yes, after 9/11 all islamic and all arabic or even arabic-looking people have unfortunately suffered due to fear. That has actually declined a lot in recent years, but OverLord is right, if this election had been 4-7 years ago, Obama would have had mobs after him. Its a kneejerk reaction when 3000+ people are killed...is the same reason the United States rounded up any Japanese-American citizen with more then I think something like 1/8th Japanese in them to put them in camps right after Pearl Harbor.

Is it Right? No. Is it horrible hate fueled bigotry? No. Its fear, and we got over that fear -once again not condoning it, just explaining the difference between being Racist Bigot and being shell shocked and scared out of your mind- I am fairly certain we have gotten over the fear enough to where only the most die-hard bigot has held onto 9/11 as an excuse -at this late date thats all it is, an excuse now.- to keep their hatred, and legitimate citizens are going back to pre-9/11 dispositions towards islamic/arabic people. To paint a picture, 9/12/01 found people screaming about going to the middle east and just bombing the heck out of everyone. Today, that screaming is no longer happening, instead people are screaming for our withdrawal from the Middle East...if that helps to show what I am talking about.

Politics is a dirty business, and Obama himself is not innocent of using slandering...hence the democratic nomination race between him and Clinton was nothing but mud slinging.

Not keen on Obama OR McCain, but for me Obama is the lesser of the two evils. But you should keep in mind Inerrant, those who are spouting about him being Islamic, are probably the handful of conservative Christians who believe same-sex marriages are a threat to "traditional" marriages, so they probably view an Islamic President as a threat to "religion".


And i just have to say this as well, those who are crying out how islamic (even though he isn't) candidate is just horrible, because Islam must support terrorism (it doesn't), are really doing the same thing that Athiest do to all christians (assume they are all loud mouth bigots who are too stupid to tell a difference between their ass and a hole in the ground) by judging the whole faith by the loudest few. SO I don't want to hear these same Christians who are spouting rhetoric about islam start whining about being pigeon-holed in the same category as everyone of their faith...

[Moondazed]

Your mention of dirty politics brought to mind a couple of websites I've found helpful:

ProCon
FactCheck
Five Thirty Eight

It's been my personal observation that McCain has outright lied about some things (even repeating them after they've been pointed out on Fact Check, which he misquoted on one of his TV ads... perhaps he needs to read the site a bit more thoroughly?), and don't get me started on Palin (!), but I haven't seen Obama outright lying.  Does that make him angelic?  Nope.  But it does sway my level of respect, no question about it.  I respect McCain's service to our country, but politically I see him as an ex-maverick who sold out to stay in his party.

What really scares me is the number of single-issue voters.  Who's for gun control (without any consideration for the actual meaning of that buzzwordesque term)?  What are their views on abortion?  There are a smorgasbord of issues, and what really terrifies me is the number of people who choose a single one to cling to without any consideration for the others.  That's not always about ignorance, it may be about zealotry or lack of intelligence as well, not to mention the selective ignorance single-issue voters practice.

[Inkidu]

Inkidu says, "Anyone actually truly smart enough for a career in politics, is smart enough to steer clear of a career in politics."

[Moondazed]

Trouble is, if the smart ones steer clear, what are we left with? ;)

[Avi]

For me, there just seems to be a different quality to Obama's campaign than to McCain's campaign.  Yes, both have attack ads out on each other, and yes, there have been some questionable things said by both sides.  That still doesn't excuse the massive difference in tone between the two.  From what I have seen, Obama's ads tend to focus more on true issues in the election, mostly the economic crisis and healthcare.  Perhaps sensing that he can't win on these issues, McCain's ads focus much more on personal attacks and veiled suggestions that Obama is a threat to this country.

All I see there is a massive sign of weakness for McCain.  If he has to stoop so low as to allude that Obama is not one of "us" in order to really get his base fired up, it says something truly remarkable about his campaign and his legitimacy as a candidate.

And he won't confirm or deny that he's been pushing that strategy either.  He repudiates some woman at a rally that called Obama an Arab, but then goes to another rally organized by a major Republican operative who has been telling people to emphasize the possibility of Obama being a closet Muslim and a friend of terrorists.  Which one is it?!  In my opinion, this just makes McCain look as if he has a major case of schizophrenia, or multi-personality disorder when it comes to his campaign. 

[Inkidu]

Trouble is, if the smart ones steer clear, what are we left with? ;)

The ones smart, but not smart enough for political careers of course.

[Sherona]

Oddly I can not think of a single campaign ad I ahve seen for McCain....I can think of several for Obama...but can't remember a single one from old John..other then Oklahoma state senator John Inhofe (gag me, I so want him out!) ads saying that Andrew Rice is "everything Oklahoman's are not. Supporting same-sex marriage, state-funded abortions, and voting against penitentiary people with more then 6 criminal offenses having to serve atleast 85% of their time before parole is possible, and then in the same ad at the end it shows a picture of Obama, with a picture of Andrew Rice an a big red circle with slash.


Thats the closest thing I can remember of seeing any of McCain's ads..I am sure I have they just didn't stick.

[Oniya]

I actually got a pre-recorded call from the McCain supporters, going on about how Obama was associated with some domestic terrorist or something.  I have the TV on as background noise during the day (WAHM, here) and the vast majority of the Obama ads I've heard are about issues.  Most of the McCain ads I've heard are about how horrible Obama is.

As far as Obama - or any President - taking the oath on the Koran as opposed to the Bible because they follow Islam, I have only two things to say:  1) Read the book first before condemning it, and 2) What point is there in swearing on a book that has no significance to you? (i.e., a holy book not of your own religion.)  I could swear a false oath on a stack of Bibles without stressing my conscience because I'm not Christian.

[Sherona]

Oh I wasn't condoning or supporting that argument (about the Quran vs Bible) just saying thats the only thing I have heard about Obama being Muslim.

As far as the domestic terrorist thing, that was way back when..about what, twenty years ago, and Obama worked in a very "loose' sense of the word with a guy later convicted of Terrorism...so again its a half-truth exaggerated to promote the cause. Dirty Politics, but really like I said there is no hope for McCain to win, so unless Obama supporters all get the sudden onslaught of "He will win anyways so not going to vote"-Itis, then I think this is all moot :D

I honestly feel that McCain/Palin is the Token Republican nominations just so that we can say there was an election process :P even if it is just formalities until Obama wins. The real question is, can our economy last until January when he is swornin? and then teh years it will take to get any real change in effect and start seeing the benefits.

[Oniya]

Oh I wasn't condoning or supporting that argument (about the Quran vs Bible) just saying thats the only thing I have heard about Obama being Muslim.

I was more or less pointing out a come-back for that kind of tactic, since I've seen it used in the tabloids.  It's also interesting that back in the day, people were holding out Kennedy's Catholicism as a potential 'danger' to the White House.

[Sherona]

*nodnods* Also JFK was a bit untested in politics as well, his experiance was questioned a bit -he was the youngest president- but I Think he did well enough, handled the cuban missle crises at least.

[RubySlippers]

I will just say its the right of every person to vote in this nation and I feel everyone that can vote- should. If the person is ignorant or a racist they have as much a right to vote as anyone else for any reason to select whatever candidates they want. I will defend the skinhead not to vote for a N---- as I can tell the candidate must convince each voter that is not my job to keep people out for certain defects. Even someone who is mentally retarded can vote and they are Americans if your going to use an IQ and Multicultural Test to qualify to vote that is not right or proper.

I myself think both candidates and their respective parties are incapable and unworthy so I voted ,I mailed mine in, for the Libertarians and wrote in Libertarians I like if I had the option. Many spots I left blank. Am I ignorant or am a a educated voter, most of my friends and family say the first, I argue the latter.

[ShrowdedPoet]

I will just say its the right of every person to vote in this nation and I feel everyone that can vote- should. If the person is ignorant or a racist they have as much a right to vote as anyone else for any reason to select whatever candidates they want. I will defend the skinhead not to vote for a N---- as I can tell the candidate must convince each voter that is not my job to keep people out for certain defects. Even someone who is mentally retarded can vote and they are Americans if your going to use an IQ and Multicultural Test to qualify to vote that is not right or proper.

I myself think both candidates and their respective parties are incapable and unworthy so I voted ,I mailed mine in, for the Libertarians and wrote in Libertarians I like if I had the option. Many spots I left blank. Am I ignorant or am a a educated voter, most of my friends and family say the first, I argue the latter.

Well, yes it is a right and the right should be exercised. . .  But I as an informed voter get sick every time I hear something like, "I'm voting for her just because she's a woman" "I'm not voting for him because he's black" "I'm voting for them cause they're from my home state" "I'm voting for them just because they are democrat/republican" "I'm voting for them because they're hot" "I'm not voting for them because they're ugly" 

It also pisses me off when people say, "I'm not voting cause my vote doesn't matter anyway" or "I'm not voting cause the system is broken" or "I'm not voting cause it doesn't matter who gets in the country is headed for hell"

But sometimes I wish that only those who did their homework could vote because god the idiots that vote. . .and then they bitch after they made a stupid vote. . .and what not. . .*sighs and rubs head*

[Mathim]

Anyone seen Idiocracy (imdb, wikipedia)?  I wish that it were further from the truth of where we're headed... ;)

Hey, Idiocracy had a black president as I recall. Dwayne Elizondo Camacho, former Porn Superstar. LOL.

Obama's got some good ideas behind him and it's feasible to believe he's not going to do anything for real personal gain unlike the Bush administration the last eight years. I mean, Clinton presided over a really great eight years and it only took Bush a couple of years to turn us into public enemy number one in the world's eyes, with another six years to dig an even deeper grave for our economy and reputation. Let's try giving the Democrats a chance to not fuck things up so badly, eh? Just because he's not a white Christian male like every other President has been, doesn't mean he's not going to do the right things for the country. I mean, honestly, what percentage of U.S. Presidents has actually been an upstanding person in addition to a good leader? Pretty low. If we give Obama a chance to show that, if nothing else, the Democrats can bring us back from the brink, the black or not, the country will benefit and hopefully some people's bigoted feelings will soften.

And McCain is seeming more and more like a desperate, senile old man, at least to me. He really does feel kind of pathetic and I wonder if he himself thinks he doesn't have a chance. I certainly don't think so anymore, with all the turmoil his side is going through.

[Rhapsody]

And McCain is seeming more and more like a desperate, senile old man, at least to me. He really does feel kind of pathetic and I wonder if he himself thinks he doesn't have a chance. I certainly don't think so anymore, with all the turmoil his side is going through.

McCain started out very strong, and I still get the feeling that he'd make a good President -- certainly better than the one you have now... but he doesn't comport himself like a President, and he's made some very sketchy choices in his campaign management: primarily the choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate, and the choice to ignore the issues in favor of personal attacks against Obama in October of all gorram months...  No one wants to see Sarah Palin in the Oval Office, and she's only one lack-of-a-heartbeat away from achieving that position.

McCain's desperate, and it's showing.  If you watched the third debate, you'll have noticed several times he tried to preempt Obama in the question/answer/reponse/rebuttal format: "He'll probably say it has something to do with RvW" and statements about the "eloquence" and "big words" Obama used to communicate.  Trying to lessen the impact of your opponent's words by hanging a lantern on it may be time-honored, but pulling it this late in the debate just shows that he knows he's not going to win.  It's almost like he's trying to do as much damage as he can before the election's over.

Why the hell else would he allow people to shout such hateful, hurtful epithets at his or his running mate's rallies?

[Valerian]

For an interesting take on the whole Ayers/Obama scandal, check this out.

Basically, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge board that both men belonged to was funded by Walter and Leonore Annenberg... both Annenbergs being staunch Republicans.  The now-widowed Leonore worked in the Reagan administration, and is also a staunch supporter of McCain.  So... yeah, he's desperate.

The political world is just too small.  They all know each other somehow, so it isn't much good harping on anyone's connections.

[Avi]

That's about how I saw it.  I mean, if he's arguing that Obama is guilty of being a terrorist by association because they both belonged to the same charity organization, then one could argue that Palin is the same because her husband (allegedly) used to be a member of a secessionist Alaskan group.  Everyone in politics is associated with everyone else somehow.  Obama's not a saint, but neither is McCain.  I'm sure both of them have associates that are sketchy, it's just that McCain sees that as his only angle to get at Obama now.

[RubySlippers]

Well, yes it is a right and the right should be exercised. . .  But I as an informed voter get sick every time I hear something like, "I'm voting for her just because she's a woman" "I'm not voting for him because he's black" "I'm voting for them cause they're from my home state" "I'm voting for them just because they are democrat/republican" "I'm voting for them because they're hot" "I'm not voting for them because they're ugly" 

It also pisses me off when people say, "I'm not voting cause my vote doesn't matter anyway" or "I'm not voting cause the system is broken" or "I'm not voting cause it doesn't matter who gets in the country is headed for hell"

But sometimes I wish that only those who did their homework could vote because god the idiots that vote. . .and then they bitch after they made a stupid vote. . .and what not. . .*sighs and rubs head*

They can vote for any reason they like, unfortunately, but that is the American voters as we have them. It upsets me when they don't like either candidate and when I mention they can choose from several other options - I don't want to waste my vote. So they will throw it to someone they don't even like or a party they don't trust to lead this nation. These people can't Google and do a little research.

As for Idiocracy it was a good movie but one thing struck me the President and Cabinet seem to care about what was good for the nation in their own simple way, that was far better than what we have now it seems.

[ShrowdedPoet]

They can vote for any reason they like, unfortunately, but that is the American voters as we have them. It upsets me when they don't like either candidate and when I mention they can choose from several other options - I don't want to waste my vote. So they will throw it to someone they don't even like or a party they don't trust to lead this nation. These people can't Google and do a little research.

As for Idiocracy it was a good movie but one thing struck me the President and Cabinet seem to care about what was good for the nation in their own simple way, that was far better than what we have now it seems.

Oh I know.  That drives me bananas!!!

[Lithos]

Trouble is, if the smart ones steer clear, what are we left with? ;)

With what there is now, sadly :(

[Mathim]

Well don't forget that Idiocracy had the government wanting to take as little responsibility as possible, pushing all of the pressure onto Joe Bowers (AKA, Not Sure.) To me, it seems like McCain would be the one wanting that kind of pressure relief, while Obama would welcome the challenge.

[RubySlippers]

I was thinking does any of this really matter? It seems to me the government does little of any value outside of its functions to protect us and keep the peace in communities (military & law enforcement) they don't create jobs, raise families or really do anything important. People do. Computers, the telephone, automobile, the real internet and other things were made by people and companies- not the government. And for all the delight in all these promises the candidates are making, the President has really very little power, even less than Congress to do anything but muck up the Spontaneous Order of free trade.

Even language was not created by rulers people thought it was a good idea and it developed on its own over thousands of years, the one attempt to create a language Esperanto fell like a rock. Hell Klingonese is more popular I would think by the fans Star Trek.

Can you show me one example where the government did anything constructive to develop a new industry from scratch or made a new technology, that couldn't likely have been done better by the private markets working? (That is important can you show that they did something and the private market could not have met the need likely cheaper for the same results if their was a need shown to fill.)

As I see it you could put that "Joe the Plumber" in Executive Branch office and he could do a decent job the same for elected offices in general.

[Sherona]

I certainly wouldn't put the fate of my life in the hands of Joe Plumber. Joe Plumber being the commander and chief of a rather large army, with a rather large arsenal.

If you believe this Ruby, then really you shouldn't post everywhere how much Federal Government screws everything up, how the government is the blame for eveyrthing that goes wrong. This post contradicts just about every one of your other posts. Either the federal government does do things, or they don't. Can't have it both ways.

[RubySlippers]

There are three things the government can and should do.

1. Prevent Fraud in Business (that is install regulations to insure honesty and integrity in business dealings)

2. Defend the Citizens (they are supposed to have a military capable of defending this nation and local communites can run services that defend the citizens)

3. Do Things the Citizens Cannot Do (this is the big one if the people and companies are there to meet a need the government should get out of the way)

I see no difficulty if the government has to get in there and set up regulations to prevent fraudulant practices and these could be in some areas strict like accounting practices to prevent questionble results (like Enron used). But take mortgages and house wonership business was handling that very well before the Federal Government decided more people should have homes even if they would never get a loan through the traditional means. Like putting down 20% of the cost and being credit worthy with a job. There were good programs for first time home buyers to help but the basic rules were still in place as in being credit worthy.

But as a rule the more government meddles the worse things can get, you can't tell me handing money to the auto industry and airlines that can't make it makes any sense. The free market thrives on efficiency and that leading to Spontaneous Order creates opportunities, industries are supposed to fail and others rise that is what the government fails to grasp.

[Trieste]

Hussein is a common name but only if you're arab. And if Americans are a bit hung up on Arabs and Muslims, it might have something to do with them having flown a plane into the World Trade Towers. If lingering dislike and paranoia are all the common people take out of that, that's really quite tolerant. Not so long ago people would have picked up pitchforks, torches and began dispensing vigilante justice.

Ahm. Obama is 48 years old (at least, I assume he is, going by the statement in the last debate "Forty years ago, when I was 8...") and Saddam Hussein didn't rise to power until 1963... 3 years after Obama was named. Most Americans had not heard of Saddam Hussein until circa the first Gulf War in 1990. I'm going to be generous and say that people heard about Saddam Hussein as early as 1980... when Obama would have been 20 years old. The use of 'Hussein' as a punch button is ridiculous, ludicrous, and otherwise silly.

And, really, if you want to hold the things a few people have done against a whole nation or religion of people, you may as well say that Americans shoot up their schools, and all Irishmen are bomb-happy 'freedom fighters'. Puh-lease.

As I see it you could put that "Joe the Plumber" in Executive Branch office and he could do a decent job the same for elected offices in general.

For the love of God, I heard enough about this guy during the debate and I really am sick of hearing about is plight and how significant or insignificant it may be. I don't give a flying fuck about Joe the Plumber because my name is not Joe and I am not a plumber. I'm certainly not in a position to buy a business, and I certainly have not been working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. If I were in a position to do so, I would probably be quite a bit more content than I am now.

Really, it was kind of a joke having the candidates bring that up in the middle of rising unemployment rates and a horrible spate of worry about the economy. People are not worrying about 'Hey, can I buy my business, and will I have to pay more taxes if I do?" ... they are worrying about "Hey, can I feed my cats and pay my rent this month or do I have to choose one or the other?"

Put simply: I have already heard enough about Joe the Plumber for chrissake, and I'm tired of him. Talk about something else.

[RubySlippers]

I was using him as an example, we can't put in my friend Anita Sanchez she is a 40 year old maid, I figure anyone with common sense could be president. She has never been in debt and raised four children with $10,000 in the bank I would think that makes her common sense based and careful with her routine business. Better than Palin in any case.
:D

But really the government can't fix the economy and do all these miracles its besdes a violation of common sense it is outside their power. The economy if left alone would readjust as I see it when Credit Card Companies are rethinking how they give out credit cards its a good sign its doing just that. People will get hurt and new jobs created at some point I see no problem with reducing the volumes of red tape to let them do their jobs and get things going again in a proper way. I'm not opposed to reasonable and limited to prevent fraud government regulations and to keep the process clear of questionable practices the rest of the piles of government intervention is crazy.

And no president has any power to fix things, he may be a good man and want to but the free market generally will correct itself as it settles from these bad points, which I will add Clinton was creating by insisting more people get credit. Others helped spur the destruction of the housing market but he did start the ball rolling.

[The Overlord]

Trouble is, if the smart ones steer clear, what are we left with? ;)

They stay clear because the haves in government want to have even more and corrupt it utterly. What it leaves us with is the specter of a full-scale revolution. We're bigtime fuckin' overdue.

[OldSchoolGamer]

We have to keep in mind that the agendas of the candidates at this juncture are very nearly meaningless.  There's really only going to be one over-arching theme of the next eight years, and that is managing the post-oil crash-landing of the American economy in a manner that preserves the United States in something at least faintly resembling its current form. 

The next President is going to have the rather unenviable task of telling 300 million-odd people that they've been living a three-pronged fantasy for the past thirty-plus years: that oil is unlimited and we can use as much as we want forever, that we can endlessly buy consumer goods from all over the world and export IOUs indefinitely, and that inventing new forms of debt is in fact a creation of wealth that should be economically rewarded.  The news that the "non-negotiable" "American way of life" is in fact utterly unsustainable is going to rub those people the wrong way, and a revolution against the messenger is not unlikely.

[Sherona]

*laughs* Ty you sound as if the United States citizens do not already know that? I knew it for a long while, and a good many thinking USer's did as well...unfortunately big business clouded the minds of our politicians and and the loudmouths. But even then they (even president Bush) got whacked over the head with that brick about a year ago...so your behind.

This president won't have to tell the USer's anything like that, but he will have to do more to enforce greener thinking, try to spur on the technology we already have to produce alternative energies.

But the biggest thing the President will have to do is fix the economy. Take care of social security, welfare, national medical healthcare plan....

[Moondazed]

I wish I thought you were right, Sherona.  Living in central Virginia, I'm surrounded by people who are in complete ignorance of anything other than their own little world.  It's scary, really.  Even when gas went over $4 the reality check didn't happen *sigh*

[Sherona]

Perhaps its a oklahoma/texas thing? I see nothing but commercials for state senate seats geared directly towards finding renewable resources for fuel, cleaner burning fuels...I see commercials for all kinds of prodcuts made in teh USA that are going Green. Even shows on Discovery, History, TLC all have weekly shows geared towards saving our planet, its hard to think that there is not a growing awareness when 10 years ago the idea of being green was largely just recycling.

[Oniya]

It might be a big-city thing.  I used to live in NoVA, and I can see that kind of mindset persisting there - despite a rather nice bus/subway/commuter-rail system, that I used a lot, people would rather drive their cars through insane rush hours. (*waits for laughter from New Yorkers*)

Now that I'm in the rural parts of the MidWest, people seem much more sensible.

[Trieste]

Living in the panhandle of Florida circa Katrina, despite the skyrocket back then I heard a very solid "ain't gonna get no damned hybrid" attitude.

[Moondazed]

I live in rural central Virginia, and it's frustrating to me that people are so ignorant of the situation, seemingly by choice.

[The Overlord]

We have to keep in mind that the agendas of the candidates at this juncture are very nearly meaningless.  There's really only going to be one over-arching theme of the next eight years, and that is managing the post-oil crash-landing of the American economy in a manner that preserves the United States in something at least faintly resembling its current form. 

The next President is going to have the rather unenviable task of telling 300 million-odd people that they've been living a three-pronged fantasy for the past thirty-plus years: that oil is unlimited and we can use as much as we want forever, that we can endlessly buy consumer goods from all over the world and export IOUs indefinitely, and that inventing new forms of debt is in fact a creation of wealth that should be economically rewarded.  The news that the "non-negotiable" "American way of life" is in fact utterly unsustainable is going to rub those people the wrong way, and a revolution against the messenger is not unlikely.

Ever the optimist, eh? LOL


You must realize that this three-pronged fantasy has been a fantasy for only a percentage of the population (although I fear the major percentage have fallen for it).

For the rest of us that can do the math and saw it coming, we'll do what we have to do, and the shifts will be made wherever possible to retool for the new situations to come.

The economy eventually will recover, although as one analyst put it, America best buckle up and prepare for a bumpy ride, however you are forgetting the true debt that we and everyone else are going to have to deal with (and by 'everyone else' I mean the planet).


That being our ravenous assault on the environment in the past century. The next administration MUST act decisively on this, or bringing home jobs from China and India and cutting debts down won't mean shit. Cutting our dependence on oil, foreign OR domestic is the first big step.

[The Overlord]

Perhaps its a oklahoma/texas thing? I see nothing but commercials for state senate seats geared directly towards finding renewable resources for fuel, cleaner burning fuels...I see commercials for all kinds of prodcuts made in teh USA that are going Green. Even shows on Discovery, History, TLC all have weekly shows geared towards saving our planet, its hard to think that there is not a growing awareness when 10 years ago the idea of being green was largely just recycling.

We're seeing the the clouds start to gather on this at last, but it must become a full-scale storm at last.

I think a big factor is that now some people have pulled their head out of the sand and are getting scared. What it comes down to is either proactively making changes, or having them forced upon you by grim necessity.

Whether that be Joe Sixpack, Joe the Plummer, Dick the wasteful yuppie, or Mr. Dumass the executive, all of you, will.

You WILL

YOU WILL change your ways in the end.

[Trieste]

So melodramatic. *puts on hardhat* I'm not saying that there isn't a problem and I'm not trying to ignore the elephant in the room or anything, but will you please stop with the Chicken Little, OL? It's severely off-putting and annoying.

[The Overlord]

By Chicken Little you mean I'm crying Sky is Falling?

Look around Trieste, turn on the news...the sky is already falling. Maybe in slow motion at first, but it's coming.

[Trieste]

I don't think it is. I think saying that 'this is the worst economic crisis since the 30s' is hyperbole and meant to scare people. I think that scare tactics are underhanded. Tapping into visceral fight-or-flight by scaring people discourages them to think, and I am automatically suspicious of anyone on either side who doesn't want me to think. Yes, it could be said that scare tactics are also efficient at motivating people to do things like vote, but they do so mindlessly, with only the immediate future in mind. That's what got us into this mess, and will only get us deeper. Scare tactics are dirty pool either way you look at it.

And saying things like this...

We're seeing the the clouds start to gather on this at last, but it must become a full-scale storm at last.

I think a big factor is that now some people have pulled their head out of the sand and are getting scared. What it comes down to is either proactively making changes, or having them forced upon you by grim necessity.

Whether that be Joe Sixpack, Joe the Plummer, Dick the wasteful yuppie, or Mr. Dumass the executive, all of you, will.

You WILL

YOU WILL change your ways in the end.

counts as trying to scare people, which is sort of the definition of a 'scare tactic'. It's the same thing that McCain is engaging in, also, along with Palin. Especially Palin.

Saying "the sky is falling" does no good. Saying "Yeah, we have big problems and we need to fix them" is a start, but from where I'm standing, I don't want people to come up to me and say "Excuse me, do you know that with every breath you take, you're dying?" because I already know that. (There's a whole chemical explanation behind why oxygen is toxic even though we need it that I won't go into right now.) What I want people to do is take that effort and use it toward thinking of a solution. Instead of wasting effort by running around and flailing your arms, I want people to take that energy and direct it to their juicy little brains and use it to fuel a brainstorm that may eventually become a solution.

So yeah. The sky is falling. Whatever. What're you gonna do about it?

[Valerian]

Has there ever been a generation, in all of human history, that didn't think things were worse than they'd ever been?  Human society is just pessimistic that way.

[RubySlippers]

We're seeing the the clouds start to gather on this at last, but it must become a full-scale storm at last.

I think a big factor is that now some people have pulled their head out of the sand and are getting scared. What it comes down to is either proactively making changes, or having them forced upon you by grim necessity.

Whether that be Joe Sixpack, Joe the Plummer, Dick the wasteful yuppie, or Mr. Dumass the executive, all of you, will.

You WILL

YOU WILL change your ways in the end.

Maybe the government could get out of the way and stop mucking up everything, as I see most of this came from too much government interference. Banks used to be governmed by reasonable risk that is they would hand out money for a laon only if the peopel were a good risk, even under government housing assistance such as my father under the GO Bill he had to put down money and be credit worthy with a job sufficent to pay the mortgage. Then the government said more people should get loans and forgo these safer practices. And now the government want to bail everyone out for their fuck up. I'm tired of this and people who are such babies and so stupid they can't get that.

I'm tired more of voters that sit around believing these pipe dreams and can't face the truths.

The nation is broke and can't afford to do much of anything, and that has to be fixed.

[The Overlord]

counts as trying to scare people, which is sort of the definition of a 'scare tactic'. It's the same thing that McCain is engaging in, also, along with Palin. Especially Palin.

That's an opinion Trieste. For the record I posted it not as a 'scare tactic' but a simple truth. If we don't act on it now, the global environmental crisis will become the issue of the century, overriding everything including the slumping US economy, because that too will depend on how we choose to use or abuse our planet.

So yeah. The sky is falling. Whatever. What're you gonna do about it?

So what am I going to do about it? Well I've been trying to do something for years now. Like people say this is going to require more than recycling to tackle, which I have been doing for many, many years. But we have to look at all the big and little ways...how we can condense our driving and save fuel, not just when the gas prices go up and we're scared if we'll have enough gas to get to work and everywhere else, but the rest of the time too, when prices drop back down.

How can we cut other energy costs? I head someone coin the term vampiric electronics; that being those gadgets we own that suck power even when they're 'off'...doing very little to nothing. It means taking the cell phone charger out of the wall even you take the phone off of it, because it can still pull power.

It means I unplug our TV and satellite receiver when we're not using them. The warm-up factor for modern televisions is a way overrated myth, to the point that I'm tempted to call it a redundant feature, and the receiver takes, at worst, a minute to reacquire the satellite when the power's been off.

That's some of the things I'm doing about it; those alone could be a huge impact on our national power bill if most people did it. What are you doing about it? Or, more importantly, what is everyone else here doing about it?

[The Overlord]

Has there ever been a generation, in all of human history, that didn't think things were worse than they'd ever been?  Human society is just pessimistic that way.

Unfortunately for us, there is no other species we can blame.

[RubySlippers]

That's an opinion Trieste. For the record I posted it not as a 'scare tactic' but a simple truth. If we don't act on it now, the global environmental crisis will become the issue of the century, overriding everything including the slumping US economy, because that too will depend on how we choose to use or abuse our planet.

So what am I going to do with it? Well I've been trying to do something for years now. Like people say this is going to require more than recycling to tackle, which I have been doing for many, many years. But we have to look at all the big and little ways...how we can condense our driving and save fuel, not just when the gas prices go up and we're scared if we'll have enough gas to get to work and everywhere else, but the rest of the time too, when prices drop back down.

How can we cut other energy costs? I head someone coin the term vampiric electronics; that being those gadgets we own that suck power even when they're 'off'...doing very little to nothing. It means taking the cell phone charger out of the wall even you take the phone off of it, because it can still pull power.

It means I unplug our TV and satellite receiver when we're not using them. The warm-up factor for modern televisions is a way overrated myth, to the point that I'm tempted to call it a redundant feature, and the receiver takes, at worst, a minute to reacquire the satellite when the power's been off.

That's some of the things I'm doing about it; those alone could be a huge impact on our national power bill if most people did it. What are you doing about it? Or, more importantly, what is everyone else here doing about it?

Well I take the bus, not that I have a choice with an electric power wheelchair but hell that is green also. But its also cheaper with no insurance costs, paying for gas and maintenance of a car I pay only $600 a year for transportation. With an occassional need for a assistance van now and then.

I do love freecycling mostly because its cheap and saves me money. If things don't save me more money than its worth doing I won't do it. Like recycling its not saving ME money for the time to do it so I don't.  Thats the free market when something gets to be cheaper and more practical people do it I'm sure someday solar power will be better and cheaper than say coal then people will use it in their homes. In my home I just don't see the $20,000 to put one in for the power we use a good investment at all, get that down to $4000 or so then talk to me about it.

I do also buy locally when I can especially at our Saturday Market for food and groceries when I can and shop at local retailers over the big box stores as much as I can.

[Zakharra]

 

Cutting our dependence on oil, foreign OR domestic is the first big step.

Impossible. There is no way we can cut our dependence on ANY oil. Oil is what fuels the entire economy. without it we would have nothing. There is no substitute that could replace oil. not anytime soon or in the next 50 years. The amount of oil the world uses is far beyond the ability of a company or companies to make.

Can we use less? Yes. That will help somewhat, but to expand an economy, reducing use is not the way. More supply is needed.

[The Overlord]

Can we use less? Yes. That will help somewhat, but to expand an economy, reducing use is not the way. More supply is needed.

That's what I meant, we use less.


But if more is needed...then we're in deep shit.

[OldSchoolGamer]

So yeah. The sky is falling. Whatever. What're you gonna do about it?

Truth be told, there's not much we can do about it.  There's no energy source in existence, under development, or even on the drawing board that's going to permit us to run the United States of America at anything like the energy level we've become accustomed to.  So if "it" requires cheap fossil fuels, transportation networks that stretch across thousands of miles, "it" is going bye-bye, whether "it" is Wal-Mart or the nanny state.  

Some advice I have for you all to prepare as individuals:

1) Balance out your finances--now.  If you're having to tap into credit just to make ends meet, you need to fix that.  If you're upside-down on that Ford Explorer, or straining backwards to service the debt on eight different credit cards because "it's the right thing to do," you need to get out from under all that.  Move from a credit-based to a cash-based personal economy.

2) Move to a lower petroleum, lower-energy lifestyle.  A good rule of thumb is that if you have to fill your gas tank more than once every ten days, you're using too much.  And no, I'm not saying that from a nanny environmentalist perspective, I'm saying it from a personal survival perspective.  At some point in the next three to five years, we're likely to reach a point where gasoline in the U.S. is somewhere between $5 a gallon and unavailable at any price.  If your lifestyle depends on ready access to cheap fuel, change it.

3) Ask yourself what would happen one day if you woke up and found that the "grid" of industrial civilization you take for granted was unavailable.  No power, no municipal water supply, no fuel, no bank or ATM machine, no grocery store, no Wal-Mart or Costco.  How many days could you survive with only what you had in your home?

I don't want to sound like a total Doomer, and I'm not saying we're likely to wake up one morning in the next few years and suddenly find ourselves back in the 19th century.  But asking yourself that question and setting a goal to get the answer to stretch to at least three weeks is a good starting point, because I do believe it is likely we will wake up at some point during the next few years and find that at least ONE of those services we take for granted is offline, at least for a time.  

4) Get your hands dirty.  If you have land, there's no reason you shouldn't have a garden, for fun, for sustenance, and perhaps profit.  Consider that most of the spices in the spice aisle at your average supermarket are not grown locally, but rather imported, often from thousands of miles away.  Ditto for what's at the produce counter.  If you live in a place where the snow flies at least a couple months a year, and you can grow a couple orange trees indoors or in a greenhouse, you've got a valuable commodity to trade if the transportation grids run out of gas.

[The Overlord]

You're forgetting the last one.


5) Arm yourself, because if push comes to shove and you can't get what you need, you might have to seize it.

[The Overlord]

Truth be told, there's not much we can do about it.  

Wrong. Read my above post. We can find meaningful ways to cut back.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Wrong. Read my above post. We can find meaningful ways to cut back.

Let me elaborate.  If the question is "What can we do to save the U.S. and the American Way of Life," my answer remains, "not much," because the way of life we take for granted is unsustainable ecologically, thermodynamically (unless there's a breakthrough in fusion research or an unanticipated discovery of a new energy source), and economically.

If the question is, "How can we as individuals and local communities prepare and maintain a decent standard of living in the post-carbon era," then I agree there are plenty of steps we can take.

[Oniya]

I'm putting off turning on the heat by making afghans.  People in my neighborhood are jealous of my mad skillz.  ;D

[OldSchoolGamer]

I'm putting off turning on the heat by making afghans.  People in my neighborhood are jealous of my mad skillz.  ;D

Hey, don't laugh.  Any skill that

1) keeps people fed and watered
2) keeps people healthy/healed
3) keeps people clothed
4) pertains to carpentry or masonry
5) does 1 or 2 for draft animals and livestock or poultry
6) can entertain people without the use of electricity

will be of value in a post-carbon world.

So if you're a computer technician or a stock broker, by all means don't quit your job.  Just understand that these are not skills that are likely to be in demand beyond five, maybe ten years from now.  If you're looking for a field to branch out into, and can't decide between being a paralegal or a veterinary assistant, go with the vet assistant option, because in a collapsing civilization there's not much demand for paper-pushers.

[Sherona]

*grins* This thread is starting to sound more and more like the Y2K fear-tactic people who just insisted that all fo teh world's nuclear bombs would go off, that planes would fall from the sky, and that there would be no more computers ever.

I think that the worlds' citizens will have to chin up and find ways to conserve. I don't think things are as dire as Ty predicts, but I also don't think we can go about chugging oil like no tomorrow, but we do have technology available. We do have sources of power available. Nuclear power plants, if properly maintained unlike chernobyle, are perfectly safe. Solar Power, Wind power, there are all sorts of other kinds of energy we can employ until we can find better sources.

They have even came up with a gasoline substitute idea from corn. Renewable energy source in the future? Very Very Very possible. No reason to go and sell all your lamps, computers, and televisions just yet.

[The Overlord]

So if you're a computer technician or a stock broker, by all means don't quit your job.  Just understand that these are not skills that are likely to be in demand beyond five, maybe ten years from now. 

That being said, you're making some wild conjecture here. We really don't know how badly any one industry is going to be affected.

[Sherona]

As far as things we can do now?


Here are what my family and I do.

1. we have had our car for two years, it came with 10,000 miles on it. We have only put 7,000 on it. 3,000 was a trip to San Antonio to visit his mother. We rarely drive anywhere if we can get away from it.

2. we have converted all of our light bulbs to those incandescent bulbs, the ones that use a fraction of the energy. Our porch lights are no longer the spot lights but instead these lights that are solar powered, pretty cheap to. 12 dollars for six at Walmart. They are on a stake, powered by these batteries that recharge by sitting in the sun.

3. we do not throw out anything we can re-use. At all. We avoid buying things that cant be recycled or reused. Our food scraps are composted. We grow our own vegetables, including green beans, tomatoes, cucumbers, watermelons, cantelopes, green peas, and squash.

4. We are not compulsive about our lawn. We mow only the few acres nearest our house to keep moskitos, bugs, snakes, and the like away and to give the kids two or three acres to play. The rest we do not waste gas to mow. We do not water our lawn, as that is a waste of water. In Oklahoma, where the worst Drought in American history combined with poor farming practices caused Dust Bowl, and black blizzards for a decade, we have learned to conserve water.

we also use grasses that are drought resistant, indigenous to our area...not transplanting bought grass seeds that aer not used to arid OK summers.

[Zakharra]

That's what I meant, we use less.


But if more is needed...then we're in deep shit.

Then you will never grow an economy. That requires growth and more resources used. Like it or not, oil is here as the main fuel for the next 50+ years. Ethenol fuels are not going to take oil's place and are worthless as a fuel where I live. Too cold for an alcohol based gas.

[Oniya]

Biodiesel isn't alcohol based, if I understand it right, and has already been developed to the point where you can buy it at the pump in some areas.  Heck, I've read that in a biodiesel engine, you can even use what's left from your kitchen deep-fryer, as long as you filter it first.  'Makes your car smell like a chip shop, though.'  I mentioned in another thread that mainstreaming new fuel sources would probably stimulate the economy by creating new factory jobs, engineering jobs, and so forth. 

Nothing is going to be a quick fix, but I think 50+ is rather pessimistic, or assumes that people aren't going to even try.

[The Overlord]

Then you will never grow an economy. That requires growth and more resources used. Like it or not, oil is here as the main fuel for the next 50+ years. Ethenol fuels are not going to take oil's place and are worthless as a fuel where I live. Too cold for an alcohol based gas.

At some point growing the economy might not matter...it may come down to just sheer survival.

If we plan to keep on burning fossil fuels for the half century like it's business as usual, then we may be a nation with large dead ecosystems and beset by horrible hurricane systems that hit us for tens of billions in damage annually.


Care to wager on how the economy will fare then?

Oh yeah...we'll change, and we'll do it either proactively out of choice or it will be forced upon us. Consider WWII; new technologies have a funny way of manifesting themselves in the face of grim necessity.

[Moondazed]

Nuclear power plants, if properly maintained unlike chernobyle, are perfectly safe. Solar Power, Wind power, there are all sorts of other kinds of energy we can employ until we can find better sources.

It drives me crazy when people tout nuclear energy as the next savior of this planet.  The Native Americans used to consider the things that they did for how they affected the next seven generations, and a life-cycle analysis of nuclear energy shows it for what it really is... too damaging to the planet to be useful.  Read Jared Diamond's 'Collapse'.  You know what killed the majority of past societies?  Not managing natural resources, including outsourcing and importing.  Am I saying none of that can take place?  Nope.  But I am saying that we should all be alarmed at how many things are no longer produced in this country.  While you're at the book store pick up 'The Walmart Effect' by Charles Fishman.  A dollar is a folding vote, and where you spend it MATTERS.  Too busy to pay attention to what corporations are doing?  Then don't bitch when it negatively affects you because you were too busy worrying about the next trend or how much more your next Big Mac costs.  ;)  <the you in the above is empirical {did I spell that right?}, not directed at you, Sherona :)>

They have even came up with a gasoline substitute idea from corn. Renewable energy source in the future? Very Very Very possible. No reason to go and sell all your lamps, computers, and televisions just yet.

The trouble with fuel from corn is that farming mass amounts of corn, especially the way factory farms do it, is extremely harmful to the environment.  I buy organic when I can and shop two different farmer's markets because shopping in megamarts feeds an economy of immediate gratification.  Food today has less nutrients (especially factory farmed food) because we abuse the most important natural resource that we have, the soil.

The biggest reason I see that America won't turn around any time soon is because we are a culture of immediate gratification, as demonstrated by people like RubySlippers not bothering to recycle because there's no immediate benefit to them.  RS, I'm surprised that you feel that way, especially considering the way that the disabled would fare in a truly free market.

[OldSchoolGamer]

One of the biggest problems we're facing is the obsession with "letting the market decide."  Oil is a one-of-a-kind commodity.  Letting the market "inform" producers and consumers of a shortage of PlayStations is fine because people don't have to have PlayStations.  Leaving wheat shortages to the market is okay, as producers can shift to corn, and wheat production can always be increased.

The problem with waiting for price signals to develop alternatives to oil is that, once global production begins to seriously decline (which is going to be any year now), price will very quickly shoot up into the stratosphere.  If production declines 2% a year as demand increases 1% a year (both very typical numbers for demand growth and oilfield depletion), that's a 3% shortfall the first year, 6% the next, and 9% just three short years later.  This means that, in three years (one of which may have elapsed already) we could be back where we were during the oil embargo.  Only this time, it's permanent.  There is no end.  In five years, we're at a 15% deficit, and the wheels come off as we face an oil shock almost three times as bad as 1974.

You see, all this talk of developing alternative energy sources is well and good, but even with a good economy, we're talking a couple decades of R&D.  Then another decade to build out this new source, to retrofit all of our infrastructure to use it, to put new cars on the road, new pipelines, etc., etc.  If the economy is going off a cliff...well...what then?

[The Overlord]

As far as things we can do now?


Here are what my family and I do.

1. we have had our car for two years, it came with 10,000 miles on it. We have only put 7,000 on it. 3,000 was a trip to San Antonio to visit his mother. We rarely drive anywhere if we can get away from it.

2. we have converted all of our light bulbs to those incandescent bulbs, the ones that use a fraction of the energy. Our porch lights are no longer the spot lights but instead these lights that are solar powered, pretty cheap to. 12 dollars for six at Walmart. They are on a stake, powered by these batteries that recharge by sitting in the sun.

3. we do not throw out anything we can re-use. At all. We avoid buying things that cant be recycled or reused. Our food scraps are composted. We grow our own vegetables, including green beans, tomatoes, cucumbers, watermelons, cantelopes, green peas, and squash.

4. We are not compulsive about our lawn. We mow only the few acres nearest our house to keep moskitos, bugs, snakes, and the like away and to give the kids two or three acres to play. The rest we do not waste gas to mow. We do not water our lawn, as that is a waste of water. In Oklahoma, where the worst Drought in American history combined with poor farming practices caused Dust Bowl, and black blizzards for a decade, we have learned to conserve water.

we also use grasses that are drought resistant, indigenous to our area...not transplanting bought grass seeds that aer not used to arid OK summers.

That's what I'm talking about.


Watering the lawn is stupid in general. Here in Atlanta, actually all of northern Georgia, has been in drought or near-drought conditions for a few years now. The situation has gone from city or county enforced restrictions or outright bans on outdoor use of water.

Even in this crappy, clay-riddled, red Martian-looking excuse for ground soil (as a native of the Midwest and Great Lakes region I'll always maintain real dirt is black) local flora is tenacious through the hottest and driest of summers. If your lawn dries up it will grow back.

Our next-door neighbors used to run their own lawncare business, and have been annoyingly anal about their yard. The Billiard Table, as I've come to call it in the past, which it's about as unnaturally flat and green as. Fortunately even they've seemed to relax on this in the past couple summers.

Practically all food waste here goes into a wooded corner of the yard. We have raccoons, opossums, cats, etc., a virtual Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom parades from the nearby woods in the wee hours. What scraps don't get foraged compost down. The back porch light is often on for security purposes but uses a low-wattage bulb, the outdoor lighting on the sidewalk is solar charged.

It all can still be better. I'm in the midst of a heavy class quarter but once December rolls in and it's over with, I have devised a plan to grab a pen and notepad and walk the house room by room. Identify any device or appliance that is expending energy and assigning it a priority.

I mean, in the kitchen we have a wall clock (battery powered), and a digital clock on both the microwave AND the stovetop. Why so many fracking clocks? This is one thing I truly hate about our society; this virtual obsession with precise time-keeping.

As I heard one time, even if you win the rat race you're still a rat. Another bad habit we need to unplug.

[RubySlippers]

I don't understand the concerns here if Oil is getting expensive we would likely have to go for electric cars for most uses and make more coal fired power plants. The market will correct that you saw that as oil went up in price people looked for alternatives now that oil is cheaper as so is fuel so its not of interest right now. So you see when it does start going up we will likely have adaption in how we travel and our needs to fit. Mind you I'm not that bad actually I did a test our carbon footprint at least in my little bungalo is low, mostly due to not having a great deal of money. But I never saw a reason to waste money so always Freecycled, went to Thrift Stores and Garage Sales and used mass transportation. Who is going to get hurt badly if things tank are those in the suburbs and rural communities where you must have a car or truck and travel a good deal to work or shopping. In the cities we have many option to get people around if we had the political will to spend the money from road to mass transportation.

But some other things we did was get those solar powered evening lights for outside our home, be nice when we sit outside later in the year on a nice evening and we always have month of food and water on hand it is Florida after all.

But you can't make people change the way you want there is no political will and frankly cracking down on carbon dioxide and other pollution might not even stop Global Warming for the potential economic costs which I pointed out with our debt in the US can't hope to afford. But I will point out most of the great achievements of human civilization in the modern age were not funded by government but from private parties - example the microcomputer we use now. The base research was funded by government but the application of the technology and all the internet infrastructure was created by the free market to meet the needs to communicate. And spawned how many new means of retailing, education and the spread of news and ideas. And even made social change possible by allowing areas that were not accessible to the outside world more accessible including China who can't keep out the free exchange of ideas even though they are trying to.

I'm sure as a species and society we will adapt and evolve as needed when the pressure to do so is there, the free hand of commerce and the amazing ability of that system of Sponatneous Order is a wonder to behold. You want cheap solar power ,for example, make it a need millions have to suddenly have and some people will innovate and make it cheap enough to use everyday. Like I said get a system down to $2500 or so and even I likely would use it when I get the money if it meets most of my homes need. Right now they are too expensive and that is no small matter people in Florida could greatly benefit from solar power but $20,000 or more for what you get and in a hurricane prone state is prohibitive. The same with other technologies if its cost effective to use people will use it.

[Sherona]

Personally Mathim, pushing your own moral values on someone else and declaring them evil enough to be killed..well..I won't say who that is starting to sound like.

Now this thread has gotten wildly off topic so I am dragging it back ontopic.


People will use the race card for their decisions at times. Some can debate that a few african-american people are voting for Obama simply due to his race, and others are voting McCain simply because of his race. Honestly this is what is flawed with democracy.

That being said, I wish there was a way to say "No ignorance is not allowed at the polls" but there isn't sadly.

[Moondazed]

*resists the urge to post off topic*

If you want to debate that subject take it to a new thread. 

[The Overlord]

*resists the urge to post off topic*

If you want to debate that subject take it to a new thread. 

Perhaps we should.

[Trieste]

Please. *nods*

[Moondazed]

I split the topic.  Forgive me if I missed any of the posts that should have been moved in doing so.  The new one is called In case of apocalypse...

[Kazae]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Corn is nearly the WORST possible source for alcohol-based fuelstuff.

It would make far more sense to dedicate corn to food and beverage-alcohol making, and to prevent the massive amounts of fertilizer ruunoff and soil erosion, to distribute filler switchgrass (or, if the government didn't have to come off its high horse about it, industrial grade hemp, since no one wants to smoke ditchweed, seriously) among the crop, harvest the edible ears, and then use the stalks and switchgrass in making lignocellulosic ethanol.  Hell, we could probably do even better by simply using waste product from highway median maintenance for the same purpose, and then adding in the waste from processing sugar beets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol is a good starting point for reading, and really is a damned fine idea.  If anything, it's strikes me as the sort of thing that would be perfect for a motivated, organized consortium of private citizens to pool money and invest in.

[Inerrant Lust]

Back on topic,  ;)I'm glad the american people are more intelligent than certain pundits would have you believe.

So much for the Bradley effect and the diehard up-their-own-ass rally goers. Rational people may not have made themselves obvious during the campaign, but they did during the election.

Not that I'm saying McCain supporters are irrational, but if you're gonna vote for or against someone, vote for a reason that isn't completely batsh*t crazy.

I'm relieved that McCain and his supporters, Palin especcially, handled election night with grace. :P

[Oniya]

Somehow, I expected Palin to take it gracefully - possibly with some bubbly description of what an experience it's been, and how she intends to take what she's learned back to Alaska.

[Moondazed]

I was surprised she didn't speak, but then neither did Biden.

[Oniya]

It doesn't seem to be typical for Veeps to give speeches at concession.  None did in the last several elections -as far as I could find.

[Cecily]

It doesn't seem to be typical for Veeps to give speeches at concession.  None did in the last several elections -as far as I could find.

That and McCain and Obama probably didn't want them to say anything to ruin their speeches. :P I actually really enjoyed McCain's speech, and of course Obama's as well.