WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[HairyHeretic]

Anything by Dan Abnett is usually work a read.
The Night Lords trilogy is first rate. The omnibus also has some linked short stories.
Commissar Cain, for something more light hearted.

[Sarakins]

Anything by Dan Abnett is usually work a read.
The Night Lords trilogy is first rate. The omnibus also has some linked short stories.
Commissar Cain, for something more light hearted.

I agree on all counts!

The Night Lords trilogy was something else, some truly fantastic characters there (which I totally wasn't expecting considering it's well.. A Night Lord's book).

[greenknight]

I'd love to hear what folk's favourite 40k books are and if there are any gems I've missed!

Inquisitor, by Ian Watson. Not the rewrite Draco, Inquisitor. Oh, and the Dune trilogy. Those are great 40k books  ;)

[TheLaughingOne]

Imperial guard: 15 hours, redemption corp, fire warrior
Inquisition: dark heresy series (god damn it!!! Give me the last fucking book!!!!) & emperors mercy
Chaos: daemonworld, flesh & iron, blood gorgons

Space marines id have to look over agsin...

[ChaoticSky]

Discovered this recently; relevant to our interests i think;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4

[Sain]

Discovered this recently; relevant to our interests i think;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4

This is epic.

By the Emperor. I need a story at some point full of Spare Marine manliness gore (or womanliness if there's a battle sister present). Something with text as bold, unashamedly cliche, and badass as the Horus Heresy.

[LordEvan88]

Thus far my only exposure to 40K is a Rogue Trader game I played a few years back. And I loved it, I loved how over the top and crazy and limitless the universe seems. Where do people think would be a good jumping on place for a RT fan?

[ChaoticSky]

This is epic.

Ive been calling it "Fuck You I Am Astartes: The Video"  :P

[AngelsSonata]

Thus far my only exposure to 40K is a Rogue Trader game I played a few years back. And I loved it, I loved how over the top and crazy and limitless the universe seems. Where do people think would be a good jumping on place for a RT fan?

If you want to jump back in, you can't go wrong with this beautiful box set.

[Azuresun]

I'm a huge fan of the books, lore and video games... But I've never actually played it, nor have I really felt the want to do so.

I'd love to hear what folk's favourite 40k books are and if there are any gems I've missed! I'll say that my all time favourites are probably the Eisenhorn & Ravenor trilogies.

I'm currently reading the Beast Arises series, and it's been a mixed bag. That's perhaps inevitable, considering how many authors wrote it, but it can get jarring at times, with some characters having a bit of whiplash in their development and the focus moving around unpredictably. And a lot of the second omnibus does degenerate into Space Marine wank. But I found the first four books really impressive--it's an interesting insight into a time (1500-odd years after the Horus Heresy) when the Imperium wasn't as belligerent and backward as it becomes, and the way the High Lords get bogged down in bureaucracy and political games even when the enemy is literally at the gate is quite believably tragic.

The Horus Heresy novels are highly variable, but I unreservedly recommend Know No Fear. Abnett has a real talent for building a sense of dread and writing large-scale disasters, and it's on full display here. Plus, he's the only author I've read who can actually make me interested in reading about Space Marines.  :-)

I also quite enjoyed Kingsblade, following an Imperial Knight household as they go to war. It's a fairly standard and unsurprising plot, but it's well executed, and strikes a good balance between giving relatable protagonists without short-selling the brutality of the setting.

Ian Watson's Inquisitor trilogy is.....weird. It was written during the first edition of the wargame, when the setting was a lot less pinned down than it is now, and Watson has a rather baroque and weird writing style anyway. But it is bizarrely compelling, and he has a knack for taking the gothic excess of the setting and ramping it up to near-absurd levels. Reading them will be....an experience.  :-)

Thus far my only exposure to 40K is a Rogue Trader game I played a few years back. And I loved it, I loved how over the top and crazy and limitless the universe seems. Where do people think would be a good jumping on place for a RT fan?

If you want to dip your toe in the wargame, I'd recommend Kill Team. It's a skirmish game (5-12 models per side) that uses a lot of the 40K system, but requires much less outlay. You can build a team quite easily with 1-2 boxes of miniatures.

[ppr128sol]

I can't say I'm too enamoured of Papa Smurf and the Blue Man Group saving the Imperium- as an unabashed Dark Angels fan I had expected that the only Primarch we knew to be alive and in the Imperium to lead the first Legion.

[Cold Heritage]

I've yet to run into a book with Marine wank. Except, I guess, Prateorian of Dorn. But that was specifically jacking off the Alpha Legion so hard its author probably looked like one of those meme images of Abaddon - you know, the ones where the model is purposefully assembled with no arms.

I've read books and stories about the Flesh Tearers and Space Sharks and they seem to get wrecked without really accomplishing much. I remember reading the Siege of Vraks and the Dark Angels show up, half their Chapter dies in an attack on a space port, and they fuck off back to orbit to lick their wounds, having accomplished nothing at all of value, and I was just vaguely disappointed and no longer really interested in the Imperial Armoury books from a story standpoint.

I can buy into Marine wank. I can buy into everything else about the setting; Marine wank is not really a particularly high hurdle to cross. And I'm probably the only person who'll admit to liking the addition of Primaris Marines.

I can't say I'm too enamoured of Papa Smurf and the Blue Man Group saving the Imperium- as an unabashed Dark Angels fan I had expected that the only Primarch we knew to be alive and in the Imperium to lead the first Legion.

Do you want heresy? Because that's how you get heresy.

[TheLaughingOne]

*raises hand* im actually a fan of primaris marines, rather enjoyed tye sections about them in the dark imperium novel, and blood of iax. In game it feels they arent quite worth the points they cost, at least some.

Im actuallybworking on small force thats made up of primaris captain and chaplin,
3 intercessor troops
Redemptor dread (heavy and small onslaught with 2 storm bolts
2 squads of inceptors
And one squad hell blasters.

Torn between imperial fists and raven guard as chapter... fists cover negation is nice, and bolter drills is a good bonus as well.

Guard give that wonderful -1 to hit penalty outside 12 inches to anybody shooting them. And their strike from shadows is only useful at the stsrt of battle, but helps overcome the issue of their lack of transports somewhat. Plus with their general ranged bent its good to keep thrm at a distance..

What do you lot think?

[AngelsSonata]

It's not a bad list you've got there. Personally I would go Fists, which I might be doing once I've completed my Night Lords but that's a year long project.

I'm happy to see that a lot of Primaris models have been reduced in points thanks to Chapter Approved.

[TheLaughingOne]

Im leaning towards raven guard myself, cause raven guard are awesome with how they use actual tactics and such. That and their little -1 to get hit is great for an army set up to fight at long range. And those intercessors with either standard bolt rifle for -1 ap, or the heavy bolt rifle for a -2 are good to keep back...

im trying to figure what would work well to branch out up into a 1500 and 2000 pt army. I gotta set of reivers to use, who make great for that turn 3 cluster crash from behind on enemy troops. Hoping that the rumors of getting some more units are true, though havent followed them to much.

Or maybe some aggressors. or if i win the lotto to forgeworld for a Astraeus or thunderhawk... cause why not?

that said.. id probably go for a manta for my tau army.... ;3
Cause.. You know. Fuck that guys side of the map!!

[ppr128sol]

Do you want heresy? Because that's how you get heresy.

Only according to Matt Ward!

Personally I'm not a fan of the Primaris. I'd have just bitten the bullet and said "Yeah, the old marine models weren't really in scale, so we're embiggening them." Cawl out-teching the Big E is a bit odd too, but perhaps that will come back to bite him. For whatever my two electronic cents are worth I feel like the Primaris as a concept don't work for all Legions/Chapters- like hell the Dark Angels and Unforgiven as a whole would be on board with letting them into their ranks, and I can't see the Wolves being eager either. Fists, Angels, and Ultras sure.

[TheLaughingOne]

In fluff wolves and das have problems with primaris,

wolves its "THEY ARENT TRUE SONS ONF FENRIS!!!"

And for angels "I DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT WE ARE ABSOLUTELY LOYAL!!!"

And i think its less Cawl out teching Big E, and more the emperor made the marines to what he needed at the time. Didnt need something as heavy duty and resource intensive as primaris, the original legions worked fine enough, but now you have chaos marines, tyranid, tau, necron and many other Major threats. And largely what cawl did was take some of the creation points from the custodes and blend them in, not to mention a lot of reckless stuff like the Furnace, or how Redempt Dreads are less a way of letting fallen warriors continue fighting as using those injured primaris as batteries.

On top of thst its implied that when emperor gave Corvus his notes for making the matines he left out a lot of possible stuff that could have been an improvement for them, so that leads me to beleive he could have made marines alot more powerful, but in interest of a balance between power, resource cost, development time, and "batch size" he went with the old style as most effective.

... and in calws favor he had like, 10000 years to work on them without having to deal with conquoring old terra, starting the crusade, governing the growing empire, and finding the primarchs as well. So he could dedicate himself to it almost completely.

Though... im of mind its possible those marines from before the Heresy might have been a good few notches above current marines and even primaris. Quality gone down from geneseed degradation, mutation, and damage, their equipment not receiving the level of care and maintence it once had, and the over ritualization of things, initiate selection, the way modifications were implanted, and s forth.

[Cold Heritage]

Though... im of mind its possible those marines from before the Heresy might have been a good few notches above current marines and even primaris. Quality gone down from geneseed degradation, mutation, and damage, their equipment not receiving the level of care and maintence it once had, and the over ritualization of things, initiate selection, the way modifications were implanted, and s forth.

There's probably certain areas where Heresy equipment is better - it's canon that there's a lot of complex, high-maintenance equipment that isn't in use or in production anymore - but there's other areas where M40 equipment is better - namely, in the more advanced marks of power armour.

But apart from specific mutations becoming more rampant - i.e. the Flesh Tearers with their near 100% Black Rage - or the Iron Fists losing two organs despite being near-Ultramarine level gene-seed purity, I'm of the mind that M40 Marines are themselves better. In M30 you had legions of Marines with nowhere near the level of vetting that an M40 Marine receives, and there were even men past the ideal age who received gene-seed well into their adult lives at their Primarchs' behest.

[TheLaughingOne]

There's probably certain areas where Heresy equipment is better - it's canon that there's a lot of complex, high-maintenance equipment that isn't in use or in production anymore - but there's other areas where M40 equipment is better - namely, in the more advanced marks of power armour.

But apart from specific mutations becoming more rampant - i.e. the Flesh Tearers with their near 100% Black Rage - or the Iron Fists losing two organs despite being near-Ultramarine level gene-seed purity, I'm of the mind that M40 Marines are themselves better. In M30 you had legions of Marines with nowhere near the level of vetting that an M40 Marine receives, and there were even men past the ideal age who received gene-seed well into their adult lives at their Primarchs' behest.

Aahhh, but heres the thing...

The new armors Arent quite as good, after a certain point. Just before and a little after the heresy they were peek. They still had access to top of the line materials and creation techniques without it getting all gummed up with mysticism and "machine spirits". They had better metallurgy, electronics, and additional systems that worked better. New marks were made when they got low on older suits of armor, those older suits being considered masterwork and granting bonuses to those that were equipped with them. You can even see it in weapons, an archeotech las pistol is generally Much better then a regular las pistol, sometimes even matching a bolt pistol. At this point they have lost much of the means to produce items as good as the older versions, thats why the Techpriests have such a hardon to find STCs and old bits of tech.

The same goes for marines. While they do more "vetting" these days of candidates, thats a necessity. These days the init has to be a child as their systems are more malleable then an adults, while in the old days they had the technology to ease a person through the change without endangering them... As much.  at this point its about a third of the people they recruit who undergo geneseed implantation survive. They have over mystified the procedure, not giving them a means of enduring the pain, they arent able to check the genetic compatibility of people as accurately as in the past, as well as the thousands of other factors.

In all essence, they went from microscopic surgery, to leeches and blood letting. I mean, which is a better candidate? a 10-16 year old boy, or a 40+ year old veteran soldier who has fought and impressed a primarch/chapter master, and can be scanned much more carefully and intensely, as well as sufficient aftercare? And, that 40 year old guy has nearly twice the chance of surviving as the boy does.

These days they vet prospects so much because each attempt costs them a Progenoid gland, and thats a high price, especially considering the additional 100 years or so it takes to train them if it does accept. And again, even with all their vetting a massive percentage of the people they take are deemed incompatible or die from the pain, genetic incompatibility, and so many other factors.

So again, 40k has a different ideal age then the 30k batch. 30k has better techniques, equipment, experienced warriors, and largely free of the over mysticism that we can thank lognar for...

[TheGlyphstone]

If we're allowed to treat the RPG material as canon, the armor is definitely something that has improved, if incrementally. The Mark 7 Power Armor standardized by the end of the Heresy era was the default ever since, but the Mk8 Power Armor is a "new" variant that improves upon the old design and patches some of its flaws.

[greenknight]

All this canon talk, I just want my Imperial Guard Land Speeders back  ;)

[TheLaughingOne]

Much as i like the rpg stuff... like fantasybflight and all, i dont know how accurate it is, specially with like, rogue trader, where ship weapons range was measured in astronomical units, which is roughly a light year and a half, amd hit almost instantly...

Though i will admit given time theybwere likely able to iron out some kinks and flaws, but id rate the older armor as better in many things...  though...

Where woukd the mark x come in..? It uses the old armor tech, mixed with new stuff. A good example of how what the imperium has learned in the last 10000 years could do with the old manufactoring and tech?

[ppr128sol]

I think it's also worth noting that in sticking with younger candidates you can ensure the resulting initiate is fully raised in the way the Chapter wants them to be- additional loyalty inculcation, tactical, strategic and combat training, and so on. The Geneseed also has a better opportunity to express when it's implanted in someone young because it can shape their body.

The older characters of the pre-Heresy era being raised to Astartes were rare even then, very much exceptions to the rule; it could be done, especially at the behest of a Primarch, and if they were close they would naturally get the exclusive attention of the best Apothecaries and gene-wrights of the time to ensure the process went smoothly, but that's the equivalent of having  swordsmith create a single weapon in the time that an industrial forge could pump out several dozen.

It also comes with some of the most cautionary tales- the fate of the Imperium would be far different without Luther, for example.

[greenknight]

Much as i like the rpg stuff... like fantasybflight and all, i dont know how accurate it is, specially with like, rogue trader, where ship weapons range was measured in astronomical units, which is roughly a light year and a half, amd hit almost instantly...

Psssst. An AU is the average distance between the Earth and the Sun, roughly 93 million miles or eight and a half light-minutes. We'd be dead if it was a lightyear and a half. As for weapons travelling at light speed, yeah, as far as the target's concerned, they hit almost instantly.

[TheGlyphstone]

Rogue Trader ship weapons are measured in 'Void Units' or 'VUs', not AUs. What, exactly, a VU is the game leaves vague, but it's estimated to be 10,000km. Nor do most* weapons hit near-instantly even at those distances - one "turn" last half an hour of in-game time.

Plus, we're not discussing the plausibility of the physics anyways, but whether stuff printed in RPG sourcebooks should be considered 'canon' to the wider universe.

*Excluding the actual laser and plasma-based weapons, obviously.