Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.

[Lustful Bride]

Had an interesting chat with my boyfriend abit ago, where he was curious why I seem to love The Terran Federation from Starship Troopers(The book was better and the TV show's version of SICON was more sympathetic being like NATO/UN but in space) when the Federation are basically a facist space Nazi group, just without the racial genocide and such.

It left me pondering for a bit and I am not really sure why to be honest aside from the Federation bringing order tot he world and stopping those petty conflicts between nations and such, along with the fact that they pretty much are securing Humanitie's dominance in the galaxy.

At that point I realized that I was siding with a not so nice group but then I considered it some more and decided that compared to the bugs (and their allies in the book The Skinnies) the Federation might be the lesser evil, for the other choice is genocide or total subjugation to an insect species. Its us or them and I rather enjoy stepping on bugs.  >:)

So if the Federation existed I would enlist and do my part. Same thing for The Brotherhood of NOD, and Kane. Because we learn in the final game he was right all along despite being evil. And he did unite the people trapped in the wastelands together to survive....Plus he is so Charismatic... ::)

(and may or may not be the actual Kane from the bible and immortal.)

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKy4BdOVsZI

So now I am curious to anyone else who reads this...if you could join or sympathize with any evil or morally gray group in fiction, what would it be and why?

[DarknessBorne]

I find the protagonist in the Chtorr series, Jim McCarthy, to be...well, "asshole" is about the best term I could come up with.  He's abrasive, selfish, and in one scene he kills captured human civilians by walking down the line and shooting each one in the face.  However, in many scenes, he's actually the best hope of stopping the Chtorrans, so it's a case of "it is what it is."

[Inkidu]

The Templars of Assassin's Creed. Some days I think humanity really abuses the gift of free will. :P

The Spartan Program of Halo and Dr. Halsey by extension. Yes, the woman should probably be hanged for war crimes and crimes against humanity, but she also saved Earth. :P

Kane

Yes all those things, and he's an alien. NOD is a dead give away. Nod is the land that lies east of Eden in the Bible where Cain was banished. Also where Steinbeck got the title for his novel.

[Lustful Bride]

The Templars of Assassin's Creed. Some days I think humanity really abuses the gift of free will. :P

The Spartan Program of Halo and Dr. Halsey by extension. Yes, the woman should probably be hanged for war crimes and crimes against humanity, but she also saved Earth. :P

Kane

Yes all those things, and he's an alien. NOD is a dead give away. Nod is the land that lies east of Eden in the Bible where Cain was banished. Also where Steinbeck got the title for his novel.

I agree, sometimes a firm guiding hand is needed for Humanity, order over chaos.

Peace Through Power!

[Murvoen]

The crew of the Serenity from Firefly are people I'd side with. They're opposing the Alliance that had claimed all these border planets for themselves, and then left the settlers on them with little to nothing to survive with. One particular episode made it clear how little the Alliance cared about the border planets when Malcolm, and the rest of the crew, unwittingly stole some medicine that was desperately needed due to the something in the air that gave them degenerative bone disease that was an Alliance shipment. When the Alliance found it was missing, they pretty much said it wasn't their problem, and marked it as the shipment had arrived. When Mal found out however, he risked death at the hands of a crazy Russian, Niska, and returned the shipment. So yeah they're thieves. But they're stealing from a corrupt government in a solar system where work is hard to find and you do what you got to do to keep flying.

[Lux12]

For me, and I'm not quite sure if it counts, but I have more sympathy for the Chaos, Orks, and Eldar in Warhammer 40,000K. The empire is a militant autocratic imperialist regime run by corrupt bureaucracy  with a monarch at it's head  To make matters worse, they worship a mere mortal. The Chaos at least worship beings more akin to Deities and accept anyone who welcomes the Chaos into their heart. Albeit not in the direct door to door evangelist way and they're brutal as hell, but they have that in their favor. The Orks are more akin to organisms, war obsessed organisms simply doing what they do. Their morality cannot easily be equated to humans. Thus I feel sympathy for the Orks as they merely live among a group species that their inherent nature happens to run counter to. They're more difficult to understand than they are truly evil. People talk smack about the Eldar but they don't do anything the Imperium wouldn't do themselves. They at least worship Deities which are of a more primordial nature too.

Edit: I also consider the anger of other species more justified. How would you feel if a bunch of aliens rolled up in your solar system and said " This is ours now. Abandon your culture and give into our every demand."?

[TheGlyphstone]

As mentioned over in the 40K thread though, the Emperor's actual divinity is as extremely fuzzy situation. The Chaos Gods are definitely real, definitely incredibly evil, and definitely out to devour your soul and corrupt you into an obedient slave and/or gibbering mutant monstrosity. The Eldar gods are dead, except for the one who ignores 90% of his own people. The only warp entities that aren't either neglectful and/or worse than no worship at all are Gork and Mork, the Ork gods, and they are as alien as the Orks themselves.

I've got a lot more sympathy for the Imperium than you do, I guess, because they were my first thought. They are unquestionably Evil as all get-out, being an oppressive xenophobic theocracy swamped under militancy and bureaucracy using a deified (atheist) autocrat as a figurehead. But where they come from, all of that is actually necessary to survive. Orks and Tyranids might be too alien to understand, but they're like ravening locusts that eat/kill everything in their path (literally for the 'Nids), you still need to kill them if you want to live. Eldar are selfish to where they'll arrange for a planet with millions of humans die just to keep one Eldar from being injured in a fight years down the line. Chaos....you deserve what you get if you're foolish enough to mess with Chaos, the scariest thing about all the Imperium's repressiveness is that it is needed, and it works, to keep humanity from being turned into an endless army of twisted demon-possessed fiends. Necrons are the cranky old neighbor who woke up to chase you (millions of years) young kids off his lawn, except he has molecular disintegration cannons instead of a shotgun. Tau look incredibly friendly and welcoming on the surface until you get inside their Space Goat 1984 culture and find yourself sterilized/mind controlled/disappeared in the night for deviancy from your assigned place in society.

Everyone is 40K is evil, miserable, and corrupt in some way. But at least the Imperium is still HUMANITY, F YEAH in spirit.

[Lux12]

As mentioned over in the 40K thread though, the Emperor's actual divinity is as extremely fuzzy situation. The Chaos Gods are definitely real, definitely incredibly evil, and definitely out to devour your soul and corrupt you into an obedient slave and/or gibbering mutant monstrosity. The Eldar gods are dead, except for the one who ignores 90% of his own people. The only warp entities that aren't either neglectful and/or worse than no worship at all are Gork and Mork, the Ork gods, and they are as alien as the Orks themselves.

I've got a lot more sympathy for the Imperium than you do, I guess, because they were my first thought. They are unquestionably Evil as all get-out, being an oppressive xenophobic theocracy swamped under militancy and bureaucracy using a deified (atheist) autocrat as a figurehead. But where they come from, all of that is actually necessary to survive. Orks and Tyranids might be too alien to understand, but they're like ravening locusts that eat/kill everything in their path (literally for the 'Nids), you still need to kill them if you want to live. Eldar are selfish to where they'll arrange for a planet with millions of humans die just to keep one Eldar from being injured in a fight years down the line. Chaos....you deserve what you get if you're foolish enough to mess with Chaos, the scariest thing about all the Imperium's repressiveness is that it is needed, and it works, to keep humanity from being turned into an endless army of twisted demon-possessed fiends. Necrons are the cranky old neighbor who woke up to chase you (millions of years) young kids off his lawn, except he has molecular disintegration cannons instead of a shotgun. Tau look incredibly friendly and welcoming on the surface until you get inside their Space Goat 1984 culture and find yourself sterilized/mind controlled/disappeared in the night for deviancy from your assigned place in society.

Everyone is 40K is evil, miserable, and corrupt in some way. But at least the Imperium is still HUMANITY, F YEAH in spirit.

Being human earns them no special sympathy. All sapient species are equally valuable to me. Humans have their place, but they are not so wonderful that their importance eclipses other species so thoroughly. The imperium would likely let an entire planets worth of Eldar parish to save their own.  To make matters worse, there are multiple less oppressive avenues the emperor could have taken, but he chose a contemptible one. A regime built on fear of it's citizens is ultimately given to collapse.

[TheGlyphstone]

They do for me, because I am human, and if it has to be Me or Them (which in 40K, it does), I choose Me. Like I said, everyone in the setting sucks to incomprehensible degrees, so I'm going with the one I at least have anything in common with at all, considering them the best of a long list of increasingly bad options.

[Beorning]

For all the talk of how the Imperium is bad, I'd still insist that the Sororitas are good :) They save people from the evils of Chaos, after all...

And as the issue of free will was mentioned earlier in the thread...

One of the times I found myself agreeing with the bad guy, was when I was watching the Perfect Little Angels TV movie. The plot of the movie was that a gated community was being mind-controlled by a mad scientist (played by Michael York), who turned all the denizens into lovely, polite, conservative people. In the end of the story, he was defeated and his mind control was turned off. In the movie's final scene, we got a glimpse of the freed community, where teenagers were again rebelling, playing loud music and causing trouble :) And I thought: "Hm, is this really supposed to be better?". Because it couldn't be denied that earlier in the movie, the community really had been more quiet and clean, more safe etc., when under the scientist's mind control...

[TheGlyphstone]

For all the talk of how the Imperium is bad, I'd still insist that the Sororitas are good :) They save people from the evils of Chaos, after all...

Sure, by setting them on fire repeatedly. :D The Sororitas are the militant arm of the Ordos Hereticus, they ain't Good by any definition.

[Inkidu]

As mentioned over in the 40K thread though, the Emperor's actual divinity is as extremely fuzzy situation. The Chaos Gods are definitely real, definitely incredibly evil, and definitely out to devour your soul and corrupt you into an obedient slave and/or gibbering mutant monstrosity. The Eldar gods are dead, except for the one who ignores 90% of his own people. The only warp entities that aren't either neglectful and/or worse than no worship at all are Gork and Mork, the Ork gods, and they are as alien as the Orks themselves.

I've got a lot more sympathy for the Imperium than you do, I guess, because they were my first thought. They are unquestionably Evil as all get-out, being an oppressive xenophobic theocracy swamped under militancy and bureaucracy using a deified (atheist) autocrat as a figurehead. But where they come from, all of that is actually necessary to survive. Orks and Tyranids might be too alien to understand, but they're like ravening locusts that eat/kill everything in their path (literally for the 'Nids), you still need to kill them if you want to live. Eldar are selfish to where they'll arrange for a planet with millions of humans die just to keep one Eldar from being injured in a fight years down the line. Chaos....you deserve what you get if you're foolish enough to mess with Chaos, the scariest thing about all the Imperium's repressiveness is that it is needed, and it works, to keep humanity from being turned into an endless army of twisted demon-possessed fiends. Necrons are the cranky old neighbor who woke up to chase you (millions of years) young kids off his lawn, except he has molecular disintegration cannons instead of a shotgun. Tau look incredibly friendly and welcoming on the surface until you get inside their Space Goat 1984 culture and find yourself sterilized/mind controlled/disappeared in the night for deviancy from your assigned place in society.

Everyone is 40K is evil, miserable, and corrupt in some way. But at least the Imperium is still HUMANITY, F YEAH in spirit.

40K Where the Tau are the good guys only because they're only just a communo-facist, highly socially engineered caste who employ concentration, brain washing, and sterilization.

Yep, only in 40K. ;3

Anywhere else they'd be terrible monsters, in 40K they're the reasonable, level-headed faction... and that's probably going to get them wiped out. :P

[TheGlyphstone]

I'm starting to think that 40K factions might be a little too appropriate for this thread, actually. They're all so horrific that they only end up looking good in comparison to each other, and nothing outside of the setting can really compete on relative grounds.



So...as far as non-40K groups go...uh...lemee scour my collection of media, and I'll try to find one.

[Beorning]

Sure, by setting them on fire repeatedly. :D The Sororitas are the militant arm of the Ordos Hereticus, they ain't Good by any definition.

Hey, it's better to be put on fire than to become a gibbering mutant mostrosity!  ;D

BTW. I'm not sure if we should swamp another thread with WH40K discussion... Let's go back to the "evils of free will" trope, because it fascinates me immensely.  ;)

[Inkidu]

I don't think free will is evil. I just don't think people do good things with it sometimes and it should probably come with a licence.

Wait a minute...

*scribbles that down for later*

[Hemingway]

Definitely the Brotherhood of Nod. Kane actually became more and more ambiguous as the series went on.

I imagine I'd be one of their fanatic foot soldiers. You know, the cannon fodder. Because ... I could never imagine myself being any significant in fiction. xD

For the same reason, I imagine if I lived in the Star Wars universe, I'd be a nerf herder. But I would've liked to be a Sith.

EDIT: Because we're posting Kane quotes, the best ever..

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vwd6kFqBs

[Beorning]

I don't think free will is evil. I just don't think people do good things with it sometimes and it should probably come with a licence.

Wait a minute...

*scribbles that down for later*

Plot bunny?

[Inkidu]

Plot bunny?

[Beorning]

If it involves people with no free will, we could discuss it together and, possibly,play it ;)

[Mathim]

I liked the numerous factions in Fallout New Vegas vying for power. You've got at least 5 main ones but really, they're all flawed and I would have cherry-picked bits of each to make my own.

You've got the New California Republic which is this big bloated bureaucracy that throws its weight around but ends up fucking itself by stretching its resources too thin. It's heads are also corrupt and the soldiers don't always have the training to make the right decisions or the equipment to carry out their orders. They are the one I side with most frequently however, because all things considered they do at least give the pretense of trying to do the most good.

Then there's Caesar's Legion, led by a fanatical dictator who considers women nothing but slaves and whose warriors are suicidally loyal to their leader who has basically inducted multiple degenerate tribes into becoming his legion, and then kidnapping any male children to train as the next generation of warriors. Virtually nothing redeemable about them apart from their tenacity and effectiveness when they set their minds to something.

The Brotherhood of Steel, at least the West Coast version, made me sick. Cowards hiding away in a bunker just eking out a living because they refused to adapt, with the singleminded cause of amassing technology and keeping it out of the hands of others. I couldn't think of a more selfish or pointless goal. The Washington D.C. Brotherhood (that had a faction splinter off because part of them were trying to stick to the ideals more in line with those on the West Coast) were humanitarians, and had more balls than a stadium. I really dug them, but the closest thing to them in Nevada was...

The Followers of the Apocalypse. Really stupid name, made them sound suicidal but hey, they do good works. Peacenik types, humanitarians, concerned more with education and medicine, these guys I really dug, but they weren't ambitious in their expansion efforts and that was sad because they deserved to be the ones holding the power. I would really have liked to support them in either expanding their operations or making one of the other factions fold into them and increase their power that way.

Then there's the unaffiliated Super Mutants. Most of them, the ones that weren't brain-addled by using stealth technology, were content to be peaceful with humans, or simply isolate themselves to avoid any conflict due to murky past relations. The ones that had a good head on their shoulders would have made great leaders in any of the factions but kept mostly apart. I respected that due to the animosity some people can't get over. Same thing with Ghouls, irradiated humans who look like zombies but still, in most cases, retain their intelligence.

Franky I'd have liked the option to recruit people into a brand-new faction that strives primarily towards the ideals of the Followers but which has different branches that focus on multiple objectives. The NCR soldiers, which would now include Super Mutants and Ghouls as major parts of their platoons, would be in charge of exploration and expansion of territory. The mutants and ghouls' immunity to things like radiation would be essential for exploring places like caves and abandoned facilities, but the humans could still help fight against hostile wildlife.
The Brotherhood could be put in charge of manufacture and study of technology (not just weapons which is their priority) and the acquisition of pre-war books and archives and the like, which they do already. But there would be an emphasis on sharing and teaching of how to use power armor which is a jealously guarded secret they seem to like.
If Caesar dies, as is said, his legion would quickly fall to anarchy. Those surviving would be ideal to have as security for any headquarters set up as they'll fight to the last man, and they're great recruiters and trainers, even with animals, although their slaves would have to be liberated first, and the idea behind it would need to be abolished.
Then the Followers would pretty much head the whole thing, making the laws and such due to their compassionate ethics, and of course be in charge of medical treatment and training for others.

Other than that, I thought neither faction in Harry Potter was worth joining. Frankly I disliked the fact that most of the magic users didn't want to share that with Muggles. What kind of shit is that? They're as bad as the pure-blood racists, denying the suffering non-magic populace the cures and conveniences that would make life tolerable for no reasons any more rational or ethical than that of the Voldemort supporters' denigration of them.

[CaptainNexus616]

I liked the numerous factions in Fallout New Vegas vying for power. You've got at least 5 main ones but really, they're all flawed and I would have cherry-picked bits of each to make my own.

You've got the New California Republic which is this big bloated bureaucracy that throws its weight around but ends up fucking itself by stretching its resources too thin. It's heads are also corrupt and the soldiers don't always have the training to make the right decisions or the equipment to carry out their orders. They are the one I side with most frequently however, because all things considered they do at least give the pretense of trying to do the most good.

Then there's Caesar's Legion, led by a fanatical dictator who considers women nothing but slaves and whose warriors are suicidally loyal to their leader who has basically inducted multiple degenerate tribes into becoming his legion, and then kidnapping any male children to train as the next generation of warriors. Virtually nothing redeemable about them apart from their tenacity and effectiveness when they set their minds to something.

The Brotherhood of Steel, at least the West Coast version, made me sick. Cowards hiding away in a bunker just eking out a living because they refused to adapt, with the singleminded cause of amassing technology and keeping it out of the hands of others. I couldn't think of a more selfish or pointless goal. The Washington D.C. Brotherhood (that had a faction splinter off because part of them were trying to stick to the ideals more in line with those on the West Coast) were humanitarians, and had more balls than a stadium. I really dug them, but the closest thing to them in Nevada was...

The Followers of the Apocalypse. Really stupid name, made them sound suicidal but hey, they do good works. Peacenik types, humanitarians, concerned more with education and medicine, these guys I really dug, but they weren't ambitious in their expansion efforts and that was sad because they deserved to be the ones holding the power. I would really have liked to support them in either expanding their operations or making one of the other factions fold into them and increase their power that way.

Then there's the unaffiliated Super Mutants. Most of them, the ones that weren't brain-addled by using stealth technology, were content to be peaceful with humans, or simply isolate themselves to avoid any conflict due to murky past relations. The ones that had a good head on their shoulders would have made great leaders in any of the factions but kept mostly apart. I respected that due to the animosity some people can't get over. Same thing with Ghouls, irradiated humans who look like zombies but still, in most cases, retain their intelligence.

Franky I'd have liked the option to recruit people into a brand-new faction that strives primarily towards the ideals of the Followers but which has different branches that focus on multiple objectives. The NCR soldiers, which would now include Super Mutants and Ghouls as major parts of their platoons, would be in charge of exploration and expansion of territory. The mutants and ghouls' immunity to things like radiation would be essential for exploring places like caves and abandoned facilities, but the humans could still help fight against hostile wildlife.
The Brotherhood could be put in charge of manufacture and study of technology (not just weapons which is their priority) and the acquisition of pre-war books and archives and the like, which they do already. But there would be an emphasis on sharing and teaching of how to use power armor which is a jealously guarded secret they seem to like.
If Caesar dies, as is said, his legion would quickly fall to anarchy. Those surviving would be ideal to have as security for any headquarters set up as they'll fight to the last man, and they're great recruiters and trainers, even with animals, although their slaves would have to be liberated first, and the idea behind it would need to be abolished.
Then the Followers would pretty much head the whole thing, making the laws and such due to their compassionate ethics, and of course be in charge of medical treatment and training for others.

Other than that, I thought neither faction in Harry Potter was worth joining. Frankly I disliked the fact that most of the magic users didn't want to share that with Muggles. What kind of shit is that? They're as bad as the pure-blood racists, denying the suffering non-magic populace the cures and conveniences that would make life tolerable for no reasons any more rational or ethical than that of the Voldemort supporters' denigration of them.

The Legion disgusted me on to many levels. When I first travelled to the town that was destroyed by Vulpes and his little gang. I slaughtered them all after Vulpes gave me his little message. Wanting the people of the Mojave to know what the Legion had done. I sent my own message of what the Courier had done. When I was allowed access to Caesar's camp that was his greatest and final mistake.

On that day every single soldier of the Legion that raised his weapon against me fell before my wrath. I entered the tyrant's own command tent and confronted him.  I killed Caesar and threw his mangled remains upon his throne soaked in his own blood. It was on that day that proved that not even Caesar was safe.

Personally my Gray side would have to be the Independent New Vegas faction from the same game as Mathim said. After seeing the mess both sides were causing it just wasn't worth the risk of allowing one to win dominance over the entire Mojave Wasteland. That said the Courier probably wasn't the best replacement with his army of robots but hey at least there was no longer a war.

[Mathim]

The Legion disgusted me on to many levels. When I first travelled to the town that was destroyed by Vulpes and his little gang. I slaughtered them all after Vulpes gave me his little message. Wanting the people of the Mojave to know what the Legion had done. I sent my own message of what the Courier had done. When I was allowed access to Caesar's camp that was his greatest and final mistake.

On that day every single soldier of the Legion that raised his weapon against me fell before my wrath. I entered the tyrant's own command tent and confronted him.  I killed Caesar and threw his mangled remains upon his throne soaked in his own blood. It was on that day that proved that not even Caesar was safe.

Personally my Gray side would have to be the Independent New Vegas faction from the same game as Mathim said. After seeing the mess both sides were causing it just wasn't worth the risk of allowing one to win dominance over the entire Mojave Wasteland. That said the Courier probably wasn't the best replacement with his army of robots but hey at least there was no longer a war.

Same here. First complete playthrough, I sided with the NCR and slaughtered the Legion once I was done doing the job down in the underground Mr. House bunker to upgrade the securitrons. So satisfying to kill that narcissistic baldy, but his bodyguards nearly killed me. I literally had 1 HP left after slashing all of them to death with my Shishkebab. But an independent Vegas could have been hostile and dominant or benevolent and peaceful at its roots, and you don't get to do anything else after the battle for the dam so you don't get to see how it plays out. Too bad, that could have been a little more fun.

None of the factions is by any means perfect, but they all do have aspects that, individually, can be seen as admirable, even essential. Again, this is where cherry-picking comes in. I hope they make it even more complex in Fallout 4 (if and when it's ever released.)

[Wajin]

You know what, if I had to choose a morally grey or evil group to ally with, I think I would ally myself with the Tevinter Imperium from Dragon Age,. Out of all of the factions of that universe I just kinda have thing for the Imperium... Sure they have slaves, but can you really say that a serf or a farmer in Ferelden isn't subject to the whims of his lord? better live with the fact that you have little free will, and just get good at making whoever makes the decisions happy. That... and magic

[TheGlyphstone]

Hm. Howbout the Terran Dominion from Starcraft? Mengsk is an evil treacherous SOB, but he's 100% right that humans need to stick together and be a unified, coherent force if they want a hope of standing up to the Protoss or the Zerg. And from what little you could see in SC2, life for the average Dominion civilian didn't look that bad as long as a band of crazy terroristsfreedom fighters didn't show up to level your town while mining out some ancient alien artifact they needed to save the galaxy, or some crazy alien zealots showing up to kill you all because their great-great-grandfather's house used to be on this planet, or some other crazy alien locusts showing up and eating you.

[Shjade]

Hm. Howbout the Terran Dominion from Starcraft? Mengsk is an evil treacherous SOB, but he's 100% right that humans need to stick together and be a unified, coherent force if they want a hope of standing up to the Protoss or the Zerg.

He's also 100% not interested in helping people be unified or coherent or "sticking together" if it involves anything other than "Mengsk gets what Mengsk wants." He's quite happy to abandon, betray and outright kill humans as quick as any alien threat for as little reason as "they disagreed with me." No thanks.

I'm a pretty heavily white hat-aligned person, myself, so this is a difficult one, compounded by not being much of a joiner in general. Only group that really comes to mind as a "maybe" is the Trickster's followers in Thief 2 (in which the Trickster himself is already dead, thus his followers are largely harmless compared to what they were getting up to in the first game).

[TheGlyphstone]

He's also 100% not interested in helping people be unified or coherent or "sticking together" if it involves anything other than "Mengsk gets what Mengsk wants." He's quite happy to abandon, betray and outright kill humans as quick as any alien threat for as little reason as "they disagreed with me." No thanks.

Not entirely. What Mengsk wants is all the humans in the sector united under his command. He's a megalomaniac, but he's also right, even if his actions don't necessarily live up to his propaganda. On the other hand, re-reading through some SC2 mission playthroughs show stuff like civilians being herded into forced labor camps and planets being abandoned to get eaten/burned, so life for the typical Dominion civvie isn't as great as I thought at first.

[Deamonbane]

Liber8 from Continuum. Mostly because I detest Rachel Nichols and anything to do with her, and also because they are freedom fighters that are fighting against a dictatorship that the show tries to cram down it's viewers throats as the good guys.

[CaptainNexus616]

If I could choose another group? I would pick the Corlaines from the Godfather


And the Hutt Crime Syndicate....as long as I get a Slave Leia >:)

[Lux12]

You know what, if I had to choose a morally grey or evil group to ally with, I think I would ally myself with the Tevinter Imperium from Dragon Age,. Out of all of the factions of that universe I just kinda have thing for the Imperium... Sure they have slaves, but can you really say that a serf or a farmer in Ferelden isn't subject to the whims of his lord? better live with the fact that you have little free will, and just get good at making whoever makes the decisions happy. That... and magic

I know what you mean. I dislike many things about the Tevinter Imperium, but at least they treat mages like they're human beings. They may let them get away with murder in a literal sense, but when you see how restraining them in the extreme works, it seems to turn out worse. This is not to say I find the things people with the Imperium some times do entirely acceptable, but the way the Chantry treats their mages, it's kind of hard to hate them as much as the characters in the series do. That and the class system (as in socioeconomic class)  seems less rigid.

[Inkidu]

I know what you mean. I dislike many things about the Tevinter Imperium, but at least they treat mages like they're human beings. They may let them get away with murder in a literal sense, but when you see how restraining them in the extreme works, it seems to turn out worse. This is not to say I find the things people with the Imperium some times do entirely acceptable, but the way the Chantry treats their mages, it's kind of hard to hate them as much as the characters in the series do. That and the class system (as in socioeconomic class)  seems less rigid.

Actually the Andrastian Chantry has the moderate approach.

The all-time abusers of mages goes to the Qun. They literally thing magic is spread by a mage's mere utterance, and if they're ever separated from their handlers they're killed outright. No matter what for or for how long.

They also sew their mouths shut or cut out their tongues and make them go around in heavy iron collars, head cages, and shackles beholden to the handler's control rod.

To top it all off the Qunari word for a mage is literally dangerous thing. They don't consider them people at all. They're things like everything outside of the Qun that isn't a Vashoth. :\

[Cold Heritage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPoqClo89tk

Handsome Jack and Hyperion Corporation all the way. Although, really, the only people who'd look at Handsome Jack and Hyperion and see "evil" or "morally grey" are bandits. Because Handsome Jack's a super cool guy who never did anything wrong.

[Nachtmahr]

I'd say the first incarnation of Akatsuki out of Naruto. (Well, Naruto Shippuden mostly.)



Without spoiling anything, and for those who don't know, the original Akatsuki was basically a sort of chaotic-neutral faction of extremely dangerous beyond-top-rank criminals who all left their respective villages/clans behind for different reasons, and then united under a single banner in the name of peace.

However, they way they wish to obtain said peace is really by following the philosophy of: 'Kill thousands to save millions.'

All the individuals are fairly interesting and unique and have their own reasons for joining up in the first place. One guy just wants to kill people with bounties on their heads in order to get rich, while another simply enjoys fighting. Another wants to obtain power, and yet another is just there because being alone in the shinobi-world is dangerous, and he needs to ally himself with people who don't care about the means through which he has obtained power. At the end of they day they're essentially extremely brutal anti-heroes, even if they don't exactly act like it. Their personalities are quite interesting too!

[Wajin]

Actually the Andrastian Chantry has the moderate approach.

The all-time abusers of mages goes to the Qun. They literally thing magic is spread by a mage's mere utterance, and if they're ever separated from their handlers they're killed outright. No matter what for or for how long.

They also sew their mouths shut or cut out their tongues and make them go around in heavy iron collars, head cages, and shackles beholden to the handler's control rod.

To top it all off the Qunari word for a mage is literally dangerous thing. They don't consider them people at all. They're things like everything outside of the Qun that isn't a Vashoth. :\

The really, really insane thing is that, in terms of destructive power, the saarebas  are some of the most powerful mages when it comes to share destructive power as they have no formal education and are all basically hedge mages whos "imagination" form their spells. And a person that's been treated like gaatlok for their entire lives can probably think of some really, really destructive things

[Zekromnomnom]

All this talk about Dragon Age makes me really think I need to finish the damn trilogy. There's so much you guys are talking about that I don't remember or never got to.

[Jag]

All the individuals are fairly interesting and unique and have their own reasons for joining up in the first place. One guy just wants to kill people with bounties on their heads in order to get rich, while another simply enjoys fighting. Another wants to obtain power, and yet another is just there because being alone in the shinobi-world is dangerous, and he needs to ally himself with people who don't care about the means through which he has obtained power. At the end of they day they're essentially extremely brutal anti-heroes, even if they don't exactly act like it. Their personalities are quite interesting too!

What? No mention of the one that just likes to blow shit up? :P

Seriously though, I agree. I'd probably join them if Gai didn't want a new team member.

[Nachtmahr]

What? No mention of the one that just likes to blow shit up? :P

Seriously though, I agree. I'd probably join them if Gai didn't want a new team member.

You.. You like Naruto?

*Tears of joy*

We shall be friends forever!

But I totally see where you're coming from. :P I like Gai/Guy if only because he's a nice refreshing breath of air amongst all the brooding vengeful shinobi all over the place. :P

[Sabby]

I tend to side with the 'villains' more often then the 'heroes'. The hero is always some neanderthal roaring and stomping and waving his ultra-simplistic morality like it's actually something to be proud of, while the villains crime is to attempt a more logical but undeniably less moral course. I wouldn't so much mind if the good guys would at least pause and consider the bad guys stance and understand why they chose that path, but they don't budge, they just yell about how they're bad.

If you've played Mass Effect 3, let me put it this way. I didn't like what Illusive Man was doing, but he had more of a plan then the games hero. The 'good guy' was just rounding up a posse to go fight the unfightable threat, while the 'bad guy' was doing horrible things in an attempt to find an actually viable way to fight the threat. There was never a time when the 'good guy' would sit in private and doubt his conviction, or consider whether the 'bad guys' actions are a necessary evil, considering how dire the situation is, he just always has the moral high ground and unwavering conviction.

I seem to run into this a lot, and I've never met anyone else who shares my frustrations, but I suspect that I'm only this sympathetic towards the villain because the guy/girl/group that I'm supposed to be supporting is always pretty brutish and infantile. Am I the only one that finds it a bit insulting I'm expected to side with them?

[Lux12]

I tend to side with the 'villains' more often then the 'heroes'. The hero is always some neanderthal roaring and stomping and waving his ultra-simplistic morality like it's actually something to be proud of, while the villains crime is to attempt a more logical but undeniably less moral course. I wouldn't so much mind if the good guys would at least pause and consider the bad guys stance and understand why they chose that path, but they don't budge, they just yell about how they're bad.

If you've played Mass Effect 3, let me put it this way. I didn't like what Illusive Man was doing, but he had more of a plan then the games hero. The 'good guy' was just rounding up a posse to go fight the unfightable threat, while the 'bad guy' was doing horrible things in an attempt to find an actually viable way to fight the threat. There was never a time when the 'good guy' would sit in private and doubt his conviction, or consider whether the 'bad guys' actions are a necessary evil, considering how dire the situation is, he just always has the moral high ground and unwavering conviction.

I seem to run into this a lot, and I've never met anyone else who shares my frustrations, but I suspect that I'm only this sympathetic towards the villain because the guy/girl/group that I'm supposed to be supporting is always pretty brutish and infantile. Am I the only one that finds it a bit insulting I'm expected to side with them?

The point is that the player can find away to do what they're attempting to without doing said amoral things. The villain simply doubted or failed to recognize a better path. The villain is not always the most logical. Furthermore, in the case of Mass Effect, the PLAYER makes the choice. So in essence you are supposed to do all the doubting yourself if you feel there should be any. Your mind is to a certain degree the characters mind. Some times, the bad guy just makes the worst choice or at least ones that are worse than the hero. Good does not equal simple. It may simply be implied the hero has already done all of that thinking and now they have arrived at a conclusion. Furthermore, we don't exactly get the full psychological make up of the character or an intricately detailed description of their life experiences. Furthermore, having morals in a constant state of flux can be a sign of indecisiveness and if one is so utterly indecisive, they may accomplish nothing. Those who do not have firm convictions may very well be one without a personality or a mind of their own. However, in games as I said, YOU are often expected to be the one making those considerations. Furthermore, many works of fiction do go at length to explain why the antagonist is wrong.

Alternatively, I could go on about bad guys with overly simplistic motivations who seemingly do it just because it's evil with no particularly compelling rationalizations. Of which, there are plenty. Am I to stand with someone who just does things without even considering the detrimental consequences of their actions or side with the one who at least thinks at least a little about them?

[Sabby]

I don't really buy the "YOU are Shepherd" defense. Shepherd has no problem voicing her thoughts in cutscenes. She's all too comfortable calling the Illusive Man an evil person, so why should I have to just assume she 'may' have doubted her convictions in private, or secretly sympathized with the Illusive Man? I mean, they do show her doubting once, but it's not about whether or not The Illusive Man is doing what she won't, it's because she doesn't know if the posse she's rounding up will be big enough.

All I see here is a glorified thug, and it's not just with Mass Effect. There's plenty of great examples out there of well balanced heroes and villains, but mostly, I just see the one who can yell the simplest words the loudest being the hero.

[TheGlyphstone]

Speaking of yelling loudly, I don't see anyone having mentioned Dr. Breen and his Combine sympathizers from Half-Life 2, and I should have thought of them earlier. An interdimensional alien empire has conquered Earth and set up a Macguffin field that prevents us from reproducing. The only way to preserve the human species is to get the Combine to lift the inhibitors, which means proving humans are useful for more than a temporary short-term slave soldier pool, which means cooperating with our alien overlords and elevating ourselves from conquered serfs to collaborating allies. If 'The Freeman' hadn't shown up, Breen's plans would literally be the only means of saving humanity.




And regards to heroes yelling louder, Gordon Freeman doesn't yell (or talk) at all. Though his crowbar does speak for him with a commanding voice. ;D

[Xenolord]

This is a dangerous subject for me to get on, but here it goes. The Groups go in the following order.

The Xenomorphs from the Alien Franchise. Anyone who knows anything about me should know why. Xenomorphs are biological perfection. Able to kill without stupid morals or emotions, they listen explicitly to their Queen and are not afraid of dying. Plus, face it. Xenomorphs are born with a mark on the kill board.

The Dark Kingdom from Sailor Moon. These bumbling idiots could use with a little dab of my ingenuity, I think. Whereas the so-called 'Generals' of the Dark Kingdom can focus on doing their jobs, they can leave the task of handling those pesky Sailor Senshi to a competent soldier.

The Garlean Empire from Final Fantasy XIV. Just to pilot this armor. Magitek stuff just looks cool... and let's face it, their fashion isn't anything to shirk at, either.

The Tuaparang from Golden Sun: Dark Dawn. Anti-Psynergy soldiers designed to blindly follow orders and kill any Adept they see. Plus, Chalis is a hell of a looker.

and finally, Clan Jade Falcon from the MechWarrior Franchise. I don't need a damn reason! Reasons are a waste of valuable resources! Get back to work, Freebirths!

[TheGlyphstone]

At least you didn't pick Smoke Jaguar.

[Inkidu]

This is a dangerous subject for me to get on, but here it goes. The Groups go in the following order.

The Xenomorphs from the Alien Franchise. Anyone who knows anything about me should know why. Xenomorphs are biological perfection. Able to kill without stupid morals or emotions, they listen explicitly to their Queen and are not afraid of dying. Plus, face it. Xenomorphs are born with a mark on the kill board.

Does that really count for this question? The xenomorphs are just things. They're no more evil or good than an ant or a bee. They have no morals; they're just amoral killing machines.

They should probably be eradicated, but as for morals to sympathize or empathize with, they have none. 

[Sabby]

Speaking of yelling loudly, I don't see anyone having mentioned Dr. Breen and his Combine sympathizers from Half-Life 2, and I should have thought of them earlier. An interdimensional alien empire has conquered Earth and set up a Macguffin field that prevents us from reproducing. The only way to preserve the human species is to get the Combine to lift the inhibitors, which means proving humans are useful for more than a temporary short-term slave soldier pool, which means cooperating with our alien overlords and elevating ourselves from conquered serfs to collaborating allies. If 'The Freeman' hadn't shown up, Breen's plans would literally be the only means of saving humanity.




And regards to heroes yelling louder, Gordon Freeman doesn't yell (or talk) at all. Though his crowbar does speak for him with a commanding voice. ;D

Half Life 2 is a fantastic example. When Dr Breen explains why he does what he does, it makes sense. I'm still going to pick up a gun and fight the Combine, but I get it. An unstoppable army rolls into this dimension and subdues the entire planet in 7 hours. Now pretend you were the one they picked as Ambassador instead of Breen. What are you going to do, spur on unnecessary resistance, or try and preserve whats left of your species?

Hell, going back to Mass Effect, Saren is pretty much in the same boat. He see's exactly whats coming, knows beyond all doubt that resistance will only ensure extinction (this was before the Catalyst was a thing) and instead of just swinging a gun around and giving speeches, he takes what is to him the only sensible option and allies himself with the Reapers. Think about it, what was his crime in Mass Effect 1, which was the single reason for Shepherd tracking him down? He attacked a small colony.

Okay, I'm not defending mass murder, but GENOCIDE ROBOTS are coming. They kill all space faring civilizations periodically. If I saw what Saren saw, and knew that killing a few hundred humans might potentially save billions from all races, damn right I would kill the colonists. I wouldn't be happy about it, but Necessary Evil is exactly what it sounds like.

Basically, I tend to side with the villains because they make more sense then the hero. If the hero were just able to consider the villains reasoning before calling them a bag of dicks, I wouldn't mind so much.

Don't even get me started on Supernatural >.<

Does that really count for this question? The xenomorphs are just things. They're no more evil or good than an ant or a bee. They have no morals; they're just amoral killing machines.

They should probably be eradicated, but as for morals to sympathize or empathize with, they have none. 

I like food, and I like living, so I guess I agree with the Xenos.

[Inkidu]

Okay, so... that fact doesn't change what I said.

They're not evil because they want to kill and eat. I mean it's not like they're killing us just to kill us. That would be evil. It's not even that human is their particular favorite food. They'll use cats, dogs, Elephant Jockeys.

Now to wit. They are not natural. They were created to eradicate life to continue their existence they don't belong or fit with any food chain because they're really just living weapons run amok. The aliens that created them are morally dubious, but a xenomorph is no more evil than a gun, but they probably should be removed. I mean if you believe they shouldn't be then are you one of those people who doesn't believe in vaccinations? They're the same thing: a virus.

[Deamonbane]

It's always the question of do the ends justify the means. Does killing a couple hundred colonists justify the potential for saving everyone from extinction? Well, considering that I know NOW that in the end the reapers only want destruction of all the advanced species, no it wouldn't, because the reapers would have enslaved everyone to find everyone and kill everyone, which in the end doesn't help.

But are the reapers in the right then? They are merely keeping the Galaxy safe and ever running, only coming in once they know that the trail that civilized life is going will end in destruction of the galaxy. So do their means, the systematic destruction of every sentient species, justify their end, which is making sure that life in the galaxy carries on?

I say no. If the means end up with you being just as bad as what you're fighting, if not worse, it means that either you deserve to lose just as much as they other guys, and in the end it just becomes a fight of survival of the fittest. Which would turn us into basic animals and would turn us away from precisely what makes us humans in the first place.

Basically, one life should be just as valued as billions, because if one life doesn't have enough worth to be saved, why do billions? Or trillions?

[Sabby]

Okay, so... that fact doesn't change what I said.

They're not evil because they want to kill and eat. I mean it's not like they're killing us just to kill us. That would be evil. It's not even that human is their particular favorite food. They'll use cats, dogs, Elephant Jockeys.

Now to wit. They are not natural. They were created to eradicate life to continue their existence they don't belong or fit with any food chain because they're really just living weapons run amok. The aliens that created them are morally dubious, but a xenomorph is no more evil than a gun, but they probably should be removed. I mean if you believe they shouldn't be then are you one of those people who doesn't believe in vaccinations? They're the same thing: a virus.

All of that relies on Prometheus being canon, which I will deny irrationally. Ridley Scott can fight me if he wants.

Basically, one life should be just as valued as billions, because if one life doesn't have enough worth to be saved, why do billions? Or trillions?

1 life has as much value as trillions? Is that why we have a military that we endorse to kill hundreds in the defense of millions?

[TheGlyphstone]

"One death is a tragedy. One million is a statistic." - (not actually) said by Joseph Stalin, one of the biggest mass murderers of the 20th century.

[Inkidu]

All of that relies on Prometheus being canon, which I will deny irrationally. Ridley Scott can fight me if he wants.

Okay, fair point, but let's say they're a naturally occurring organism (which would probably be suspect because they simply are too perfect but that's beside the point). They still have a very viral nature about them, and they are just animals. So they're still amoral and we should definitely protect ourselves from them.

To provide an example:

Predators have morals, Aliens do not. Predators choose to hunt for sport, aliens hunt to propagate.

[Sabby]

I was joking, by the way xD

[Inkidu]

I was joking, by the way xD

Ah yes, haven't we've all been too deep in nerdy hypotheticals? XD

[Sabby]

Hey, when you reveal you think Commander Shepherd and Dean Winchester are neanderthals, probably a good idea to try and make light immediately after. I've already got Ridley Scott due to fight me over his own canon, I could do without Mass Effect and Supernatural fans wanting to stab me xD

[CaptainNexus616]

Better pray Ridely doesn't unleash some Xenos on you lol