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A separate Intersex/transgender/genderqueer/etc tag?

Started by Vekseid, February 07, 2009, 10:11:17 PM

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Vekseid

I'd only make one, mind - I know you come in all sorts of varieties, but roughly 98% of the human population is biologically one single gender and I get the impression that those who mentally identify with a different gender are similarly outnumbered.

If there's support for the idea we'd need to come up with a name, but I think we've got enough now that it could be another viable community here.

This would probably occur after the upgrade as it has superior permission handling.

Mnemaxa

One of the more interesting books of science fiction I read uses a gender neutral title for males and females.  It might work well for that - Ser.  Lord, Lady, Ser.  Knight, Dame, Gentry.

The Well of my Dreams is Poisoned; I draw off the Poison, which becomes the Ink of my Authorship, the Paint upon my Brush.

Greenthorn

 

Jag

I think that idea would go over rather well. There are a number of people out there that can't choose which they are, don't believe they are either, or believe that they are both.

Giving them their own option for a title would be a nice idea.
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Transgirlenstein

Would they get their own forum then like the Lord and Ladies forums?




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Greenthorn

Quote from: trippingsatyr on February 08, 2009, 03:04:21 PM
Would they get their own forum then like the Lord and Ladies forums?



If they do, then that would mean they don't get Lords/Ladies access?...at least that is what would be "fair". 
 

Haibane

#6
Quote from: Mnemaxa on February 08, 2009, 02:54:23 AM
One of the more interesting books of science fiction I read uses a gender neutral title for males and females.  It might work well for that - Ser.  Lord, Lady, Ser.  Knight, Dame, Gentry.
Of those 'Gentry' is the only one without gender connotations. I think it should mesh with the Elliquiy naming conventions of Lord/Lady/Knight/Dame and such.

It also depends on whether the person feels they really belong more in one gender than another (that is, despite their biological gender their sexual/mental gender is 'more' female or 'more' male) or whether they do not feel strongly to be any gender.

Some ideas.

How about:

'Noble'? This tag can sit on a new neutral coloured field for a person who considers themselves neither male or female (or equally both) and could sit on a green field for those who feel themselves more male and on a red field for those who consider themselves more female.

How about using the internationally accepted symbol for a transgender/intersex person which is the female circle/downward + and the male circle/upwards arrow combined? See here - particularly the fifth symbol down (transgender) and the eighth (gender symbols).

Also here.

Quote from: Greenthorn on February 08, 2009, 03:09:41 PM
If they do, then that would mean they don't get Lords/Ladies access?...at least that is what would be "fair". 
Hmmm... this is a very good point. And it opens up a whole new discussion. Would a person with a male body but a female gender be given access to the Ladies only forum, or the Lords only? Or neither and we create a new one?

Transgirlenstein

Personally, I am a bit on the fence about this.  Part of me things it a good idea, part of me doesn't.

I do like Haibane's idea the best though and I would think they should get access to their own forum then.
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Formally Tripping Satyr, Tripping Snake and QueenTrippingserpent.  Often known as Trip.

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Greenthorn

One thing I would like to point out about having a totally different forum just for TGs...

As far as I am aware, there is a small group of those who are honestly gender neutral/TG..or whatever (sorry I don't know all of the terms and labels)...do they really want to feel...-isolated- with just the small group by losing access to Lords/Ladies?

Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.
 

Haibane

Quote from: trippingsatyr on February 08, 2009, 03:17:14 PM
I do like Haibane's idea the best though and I would think they should get access to their own forum then.
Please, it wasn't my idea. Others suggested it, I just threw in my 2c.

Vekseid

Quote from: Greenthorn on February 08, 2009, 03:17:32 PM
One thing I would like to point out about having a totally different forum just for TGs...

As far as I am aware, there is a small group of those who are honestly gender neutral/TG..or whatever (sorry I don't know all of the terms and labels)...do they really want to feel...-isolated- with just the small group by losing access to Lords/Ladies?

Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.

Well, that's really why I've waited so long - we seem to be getting a new Intersex applicant every few days, I think there's enough where they could have their own area.

Ket

Not to rain on anyone's parade...

But my question is, with a tag specifically stating that someone is trans, whether it be in mind or body, would this possibly cause issues with people who aren't comfortable with it?  I know the majority of us on E are very open when it comes to sexualities and genders, however, as we've seen in the past, there are some who aren't.  
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Haibane

Quote from: Greenthorn on February 08, 2009, 03:17:32 PM
Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.
*nods sagely* It's a sensitive subject - and a slippery slope. Isn't asking for a separate identifyer (graphical and/or name) segregative anyway?

I do think that which forum is accessible is going to be the key here. Perhaps one of the two main genders plus a new TG forum wherein TG-relevant issues can be discussed?

I think we need some input here from the members this will directly concern as well.

Mnemaxa

Well, the main advantage of having their own forum is that it would, like the other two forums, be about things their genders would be concerned with and a very good source of support and resources just as the other two are for their genders, regardless of how exactly they define that gender.   Likewise, they shouldn't have access to both lords and ladies, as it subverts the entire idea behind those two boards - as safe place for people to discuss gender based issues without qualm or concern for their safety or respect.

I don't think that last came out right, but I hope you get the idea.

That's part of my reasoning for using a non-gender biased title like Gentry, Noble, Ser....it imparts a title of respect without defining exactly a role they themselves are trying or seek to define for themselves.  It's a wide swath of many shades of grey, and even male and female aren't exactly black and white.

The Well of my Dreams is Poisoned; I draw off the Poison, which becomes the Ink of my Authorship, the Paint upon my Brush.

Transgirlenstein

Thus why I am on the fence.  Part of me things its not a bad idea, the other part feels it is segregative.
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Vekseid

Quote from: trippingsatyr on February 08, 2009, 03:27:46 PM
Thus why I am on the fence.  Part of me things its not a bad idea, the other part feels it is segregative.

Well it's largely a voluntary thing. People who truly identify as male or female are not mandated to hop into the new group.

Mnemaxa

Having two sections, one for male, and one for female is also segregative.  anyone who things otherwise is not looking at the sheer existence of the fact that the two sexes have seperate boards.  This is not a bad thing, mind you.  If they want to define themselves as a lord, or a lady, then they've set themselves as who they feel they are already, and it shouldn't be an issue.  The third board is for those who have actual issues with their gender distinction, if they choose to use it.  And that's the key word: CHOICE.  They have the option of choosing any one board....just as we right now have the choice of two boards, Lords and Ladies.  

The Well of my Dreams is Poisoned; I draw off the Poison, which becomes the Ink of my Authorship, the Paint upon my Brush.

Oniya

Perhaps something more subtle - giving the Lord or Lady title that is desired, but using the intersex or a purple symbol for the gender tag.  Most of the time, I barely even notice the gender symbol, which would make it less likely to be a cause for focus.
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Cthulhu

It would be nice to have a forum for gender issues... But at the same time, for such a small group? It might get boring. The gender play meet up thread has about 20 posts, so that would be really small.

I don't know about the ladies-gents forums, though. Should one be excluded from both for being bigender (having a female and a male side)? I understand that some people might be uncomfortable with gender issues - Trieste told me there were some complaints about my thread to ask and change this. So in that aspect I do support a seperate board... But then again. The group might just be tiny.

Oniya

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 08, 2009, 04:58:55 PM
It would be nice to have a forum for gender issues... But at the same time, for such a small group? It might get boring. The gender play meet up thread has about 20 posts, so that would be really small.

I don't know about the ladies-gents forums, though. Should one be excluded from both for being bigender (having a female and a male side)? I understand that some people might be uncomfortable with gender issues - Trieste told me there were some complaints about my thread to ask and change this. So in that aspect I do support a seperate board... But then again. The group might just be tiny.

I'm not sure you can use the gender-play meetup thread to determine whether a bigender forum would be useful.  There also might be people who a) consider themselves bigender, but don't care to get involved in gender-play, or b) consider themselves firmly one gender or the other and do enjoy gender-play. 

Here's a question, though - Does a forum take up a set amount of resources in addition to whatever amount of traffic it has?  If not, then there's nothing that would be hurt by having it as a sanctuary for those things that bigendered people might not feel comfortable airing in public, the same way that Ladies Only (and I presume Lords Only) is a sanctuary for the single-gendered to do 'locker-room talk'.

Personally, I'm not uncomfortable with the current set-up, but I understand that some people might be, on all the multiple sides of the fence.  Maybe it's anonymous poll time?
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
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Haibane

Cthulhu, I don't think the size of the group matters. I think giving you a place that is welcoming and private and where you can discuss issues important to yourselves without fear of being interrupted/ridiculed/watched, is.

Whether some of you also have access to one of the other gender specific forums is something to debate but I do not think it is fair to allow access to both, for the reasons we have separate forums in the first place.

A number of E members have had their gender tag switched already. This alone makes me a tiny bit uncomfortable that people with previous access to one forum now have access to the other. Feel free to berate me as narrowminded if you wish, though I don't intend anything negative by it, but I thought it wise to show my true feelings here, even if my discomfort is very very slight.

Trieste

I fit rather neatly into the binomial system of genders. I have a vagina, and I rather enjoy being a girl. That being said, I feel like doing such a thing puts far too much focus on gender. The only reason I personally use the lord and lady tags is to determine whether someone prefers being referred to as sir or ma'am.

My sexuality is not tied to gender, though, at all. So I'm not sure how this would help those of you who care about it more ... I mean, and it's not like there are super secret things going on in the gender-specific forum. We could all talk about makeup and sex toys and naked men and porn stars and our perfect date out in the open forum if we wanted to... it's just that it's another forum where things feel like they might 'belong'.

Scott

Quote from: Greenthorn on February 08, 2009, 03:17:32 PM

Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.

I don't see it being any more segrative than a Lord no being able to access the Ladies thread, or Vice versa, it would just be a third thread. As long as there is no bouncing back and forth between the new thread and their physically or mentally chosen gender. just pick one of the three and stick with it. 

Karma

I think the farthest I'd be willing to go with this is adding a board for issues, and making no further "identifiers" if you will. I'm also mildly uneasy about the gender tag switching, but not enough to have any real objection to it. I would participate readily in the intersex board, or whatever it would be called, but I am not interested in being cut off from the Ladies board...

Transgirlenstein

The thing is, I agree in that a third gender tag shouldn't needed.  An intersex board would be great and very much appreciated but as Karma said, Some people do not want to be cut off from the Lord or Ladies boards.
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