Perceptions: Older men in relationships with young women

[Beorning]

I have another question about something I'm wondering about:

I've noticed that Leonardo DiCaprio received a lot of negative comments (or ridicule, at least) in the media regarding his relationships with young women. I remember that one person (not sure who that was) publicly stated that he and other men engaging in relationships with drastically younger women are simply predators. So, I guess that a 48 y.o. men in a relationship with a 19 y.o. woman would be, at least in the US, considered a no-no?

Meanwhile...

Back here, there's a long-running cop show I'm watching. One of the subplots since two seasons ago is that one of the cops (a guy around 40 or something) fell in love with a young, attractive and very smart woman. Only after a few dates he learned that she was only around 19 y.o. - and was actually still a high-school senior. There was a lot of emotional turmoil because of that - but, eventually, the pair kept dating. Then, they moved in together. Last season ended with them actually getting married. The whole subplot treats the relationship as an unusual, but ultimately healthy relationship.

I'm wondering: considering the reactions to DiCaprio's romances, would such a relationship be shown the same way in the US media? Or would something like this be considered tasteless and / or wrong?

[Keelan]

I have another question about something I'm wondering about:

[...]

I do enjoy your questions :3

That said... this is not a simple answer, there is a cultural and generational gap I think to factor in, and frankly a lot of topics that go into it will piss SOMEONE off during the discussion if one's being honest with it.

Traditionally though, I've always heard the adage of 'half your age + 7' so for me that'd be 34/2+7 so 24, but in reality that's more a folky quip than an actual guiding principle. Some age gap - the gap more acceptable as the couple is older - is not really 'problematic' traditionally, though if it's too big - 18 and 99 - there's a chance it'll be seen as some combination of 'gold digger' and/or 'creepy old man'.

In media, I usually observe one of four scenarios involving Older Men/Younger Women: loving 'nonstandard' relationship, chauvinist with either his current plaything or 'the one who will fix him', a predatory woman going after a man for his wealth, or an older (rich and powerful) man who keeps his wife around as a trophy. There could be others, but these are the ones that come to mind.

Leonardo's case is also not necessarily indicative of the traditional perception either, as his behavior is part of a pattern of dating younger women serially as well as the fact that he himself is rather rich, so it also brings in his behavioral predilections as well as is peak fodder for discussions of power dynamics.

For the more modern discussion... that's a whole can of worms and especially if you start bringing up the pop-psy and pop-sci bastardizations and the evolutionary psychology/biology concepts the bastardizations come from it starts to get really messy...

...might give it a go once I finish working for the day...

[Azy]

I think it really all depends on the ages of the people involved and personal opinions.  I'm dating a man about 8 years older than me, but I'll be 38 in June, so no real big deal there.  I'm no longer considered young and naive.  A woman is a legal adult at 18, but I guess some people see older men going after them as predatory because we all know that there is no magical maturation when you go to bed 17 and wake up officially 18.  They're still dumb kids in a lot of ways.   

I know nothing about the Leonardo DiCaprio thing, but if he dates only much younger women, then that could upset people because he's saying that only women that young are beautiful enough, and society is rightly so trying to move away from a woman being only worth what her physical appearance is rated.  But that's just a guess on my part because I don't really follow celebrity gossip much. 

[Oniya]

There are quite a few celeb couples that involve the older man hooking up with one younger woman and the couple stays together.  You don't hear 'scandalous pearl-clutching' about Harrison Ford and Calista Flockhart, even though he's 23 years older than her.  Or Bruce Willis and his wife, Emma Heming Willis (other than how well she's dealing with his aphasia and dementia  :'( ) with a similar age gap.  Or Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones (25 year gap.)

I believe that the issue with DiCaprio and others is that they - ahem - keep trading in for a newer model.  I also watch a lot of cop shows, and while there haven't been many plots involving the former situation (stable and happy), there have been many plots involving the DiCaprio setup.

[RedRose]

I've never heard of rules, but yeah when they like the person it's different from trading her, especially for younger. Glad my parents didn't do the 7 year divide rule!

[Dice]

I keep my cars longer then Leo keeps his girlfriends.

Leo is discarding women at a breakneck rate and following a trend of only seeking out women in a set age group. It's got an almost pedophilic feel to it. They get past an age, they are replaced.

[Skyguy]

I keep my cars longer then Leo keeps his girlfriends.

Leo is discarding women at a breakneck rate and following a trend of only seeking out women in a set age group. It's got an almost pedophilic feel to it. They get past an age, they are replaced.

That's the issue with Leo. He pretty consistently dumps them about 25 and replaces them with a new 19 to 20 year old and he's done this either three or four times. It's a very bizarre pattern to not be intentional.

[Captain Maltese]

I think for normal people, the half age plus seven thing is the social norm. The social norm of our times. Go back 100-150 years and you had one norm for the working class and another for the small upper/middle class. Humanity go back what, 500 000 years? Now we all consider ourselves middle class and we must conform to that norm of face scorn. However the elite class does not. DiCaprio goes through the young female ranks like they are candy and he has an endless lineup of volunteers. Madonna (65) enjoys her new 23-year old after ditching the 28-year old. This isn't an older man thing. This is a money and fame thing. Of course many of the older desire the tautness and virility of the young. Of course many of the young desire the power, fame, money, connections, respect of the older. Modern society says that can't be a thing, among a million other things we 'can't' have. If you are powerful and rich enough, you'd don't play with those restrictions any more. If you have a sizzling hot young body you can suddenly be on a luxurious yatch in the Riviera and drink champagne with people who get front page coverage and have journalists take picture of you. Let's not pretend the desire and greed is a one way road. DiCaprio is not exactly my ideal guy. But the young girls hooking up with him aren't exactly oblivious of what he is either.

[RedRose]

Am I the only one who never encountered the plus seven rule irl? I know people who have a limit for themselves: not more or less than ------- etc, but not an equation.

[Keelan]

Am I the only one who never encountered the plus seven rule irl? I know people who have a limit for themselves: not more or less than ------- etc, but not an equation.

I mean I obviously have, and it's known enough to be a thing on a Wiki page about age disparities. Here's a quick wiki-link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships#%22Half-your-age-plus-seven%22_rule

[Captain Maltese]

I want to add that I consider age difference attraction to be perfectly normal. Regardless of which side of the age difference you are on currently. Just like we may be attracted to a great lot of other things that look better in our heads than the real thing. Some times it DOES work out. Often it don't. But we can say that for a lot of other things too. However there is no question that a great age difference is going to be commented on in your social circles if you live in a modern country. Whether that matters to you or not, is up to you.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I never heard of the plus seven rule and still don't know what it means and I never let age interfere with my attraction.  At the age of 19 I was attracted to a man who was 43 and those two years were some very good times.  ;D

[RedRose]

*me trying it with couples I know*

It's not clear whether it's the minimum or ideal age. If that's the ideal age it's actually disturbing.
Guess I was too old for my husband.
My mom was too young
I know so many couples of a similar age, like a couple years diff, so they don't fit either

Minimum would make more sense, but I dislike a clear cut age where it gets wrong when both are consenting and LEGAL. Even more when it's serious and not Leonard type. There should be common sense.

Or maybe I'm too Euro for that concept

(and I agree there will be comments, especially in the beginning - my husband and I are a couple years apart so it's obviously not a question, but my parents had comments in the beginning - still how many couples in their gen stayed married for decades until one passed out? That was also the case for my inlaws. Some comments are innocuous, others are mean, and I bet there's a lot of jealousy and assumption)

[Captain Maltese]

Definitely the minimum.

Norway, which isn't exactly the world standard for anything, has statistics for everything. People who marry here are in their 30s, and when they do the man is on an average 3.5 years older than the woman. My parents, who are quite old now, are 5 years apart.

However. The average woman does not get her first child before she have had her education, gotten her first real job (with full pregnancy benefits) and is essentially financially secure, and then found a long term partner. So she get that child only after becoming 30. Our birthrates are down to about 1.4. I think if women here were not in that financial situation, those numbers would not be the same.

[RedRose]

Yes, in France too people get older and older, outside of traditional circles. My mom had me during her studies. I'd personally have gone crazy waiting for financial security before looking for someone (or finding someone and not starting a family if I didn't have a good job before). I THINK the first girl in my class to get married was 19 and he was around that.

[Keelan]

Minimum would make more sense, but I dislike a clear cut age where it gets wrong when both are consenting and LEGAL. Even more when it's serious and not Leonard type. There should be common sense.

This is the modern interpretation of the 'rule' at least in the US yes: again, me being 34 it's 34/2+7=24 is the 'youngest' my partner should be and it not be 'inappropriate'.

As the page I linked before hints at, this has not been the case of the rule over it's history - at one point it was ideal age of female spouse, for example - but every instance of it that I've heard here in the US has been 'this is the youngest your partner should be and it not be creepy', but again it's not a hard-and-fast rule so much as just a quippy little folk saying with the reality being more gut-feeling when it comes to age disparities.

I'm very much on the same page as RedRose insofar as 'I don't really care so long as the people involved are consenting adults', though not speaking for anyone else I came to that perspective as a matter of pragmatism since otherwise it gets absolutely stupid trying to set limits.

God the number of people I've seen with stupid-ass takes citing "the human brain isn't fully developed until 25"...

[RedRose]

Yeah, I've 21 and 25 for the brain - so what? Are you going to be single until then? (you're allowed to)

I also understand that, say, a 40 year old gap (one of my friends) will be considered unhealthy in all cases by many and I see why.

I understand humans need rules.

[Keelan]

Yeah, I've 21 and 25 for the brain - so what? Are you going to be single until then? (you're allowed to)

Adding to that, if it's illegal to date someone under 25 if you're over 25... what about nude photos of people 18-24? If they can't consent to sex or relationships with anyone 25 or older, doesn't that make them 'underage'?

God, that'd require us to basically nuke the entire internet at that point I'm pretty sure...

[Clio]

So here's my view. It's about patterns. If the person (no matter the gender) ONLY dates someone much younger than them, and continues that even as they themselves age, like Leo does with his girlfriends, then I consider it a big red flag. As long as they're consenting adults, it's technically okay, but I find it worrisome. It usually means one of two things. Either they are emotionally/mentally immature and cannot relate to those their own age OR they purposely want someone younger who is easier to manipulate. Often, especially with men in age-gap romances, they will purposely seek out vulnerable younger partners in the hopes of being considered the provider or savior. This allows them to get away with more toxic traits, as they are considered the "wiser" one.

Age gap relationships (as long as they're consenting adults) can absolutely work, but often the ones that are genuine are not the result of a behavioral pattern like I mentioned. So if a person normally dates around their age bracket but then falls in love with someone much younger, I'm less likely to think anything is iffy about it. Obviously the fact that power and experience may not be balanced in such a relationship should be considered, but it can be overcome if they genuinely care for one another as equals. And it should be mentioned that power imbalances can absolutely exist in same-age relationships too.

Leo disturbs me as he blatantly does not date around his own age at all. He specifically chooses women from 19-25 no matter how old he gets. That's what bothers me. I personally have a rule for 10 years either way in my case. Unless there's some crazy sudden chemistry (which is doubtful), I will not date below 10 years younger than me...or over 10 years older than me. So for me, the half-age plus seven would still be younger than I prefer. I prefer people around my own age. It's safest and we'd have more in common.

Attraction and sex are not enough to make a relationship last, and that tends to be what most age-gap couples have in common. Once the lust and initial excitement burns out, or the younger person gets older and realizes the boundaries they can set, the relationships either fall apart or turn toxic. There are exceptions, of course, but unfortunately I'm speaking from experience as someone who naively thought "oLdEr MeN aRe So HoT" as a young adult. Looking back, I'm very glad I never was in an abusive or serious relationship with the older men I dated.

Also want to make it clear that these patterns and abusive relationships, although often older men and younger women, are not exclusive to any gender or sexuality. Stay safe out there and know your worth. <3

[Al Terego]

It's got an almost pedophilic feel to it.

[Twisted Crow]

Are all the girls of legal age that are dating/minging with LeoDecaff?
Are the girls consenting?

If the answer is yes to both of those, then it is 1000% nobody's business other than LeoDecaff and who ever chick that wants to bone him.

[TheGlyphstone]

So Leo's current GF is 23 years younger than him, and it weirds some people out. He's still got nothing on Mick Jagger, whose GG is 44 years his junior. Then again, Mick does tend to stick with his partners instead of trading them out like he's on Logan's Run, so maybe that's what makes people feel weird about Leo?

[Twisted Crow]

I feel like Cher might be an interesting comparison to make.

[Oniya]

Not gonna lie, Cher kinda weirds me out, too.  It's 100% the 'expiration date' factor that looks bad.

[Al Terego]

People will always get weirded out about things outside of what they consider to be the norm.
If no illegal acts are performed, they will have to deal with it.
Of course, freedom of speech allows them to voice their displeasure, but it also allows others to tell them what they think of it.

[Clio]

I feel like Cher might be an interesting comparison to make.

I think I said in my post that gender doesn’t matter. It’s the pattern that makes it worrisome.

People will always get weirded out about things outside of what they consider to be the norm.
If no illegal acts are performed, they will have to deal with it.
Of course, freedom of speech allows them to voice their displeasure, but it also allows others to tell them what they think of it.

And that’s fine. They’re not going to jail. But many of us have experienced predatory behavior and want to protect others from it. *shrugs*

[Twisted Crow]

Yeah, that's more or less my camp, as well.

[Al Terego]

And that’s fine. They’re not going to jail. But many of us have experienced predatory behavior and want to protect others from it. *shrugs*

That sentiment is commendable, but where do we draw the line between trying to protect others and meddling, and what lengths are justifiable?

Two people, large age gap.
Both of legal age and sound mental capacity, both appear to be willing.

It might be the case that there is some exploitation (or preying, as you put it) involved, but in that case I would assume that the power gap (status, money, influence, etc.) is more important than the age gap.
Then again, the younger person may be fully aware of the the role they are expected to play in that relationship and just wants to tick "dated / slept with a celebrity" off their bucket list.

[Oniya]

Let's put it this way - if I had a child that either Leo or Cher 'took an interest in', I would make sure to point out that pattern, so that they were fully aware of the situation.  Even though that child would be a legal adult and able to give their consent.  (Little Oni is ace, and unlikely to give reciprocal interest to either Leo or Cher.  Neither one has enough interests in common with her to get to the point that flirting would be even noticed.)

[Beorning]

Let's put it this way - if I had a child that either Leo or Cher 'took an interest in', I would make sure to point out that pattern, so that they were fully aware of the situation.  Even though that child would be a legal adult and able to give their consent.  (Little Oni is ace, and unlikely to give reciprocal interest to either Leo or Cher.  Neither one has enough interests in common with her to get to the point that flirting would be even noticed.)

One week from now:

Little Oni: Hey Mom! Guess whom I just started dating! Two hints: his first name is "Leo" and his last name is "DiCaprio"!

Oniya: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! That's what I get for tempting fate with carelessly spoken words!

*ducks*

[Al Terego]

Let's put it this way - if I had a child that either Leo or Cher 'took an interest in', I would make sure to point out that pattern, so that they were fully aware of the situation.  Even though that child would be a legal adult and able to give their consent.

Oh, absolutely!  I'd do the same.

[Oniya]

One week from now:

Little Oni: Hey Mom! Guess whom I just started dating! Two hints: his first name is "Leo" and his last name is "DiCaprio"!

Oniya: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! That's what I get for tempting fate with carelessly spoken words!

*ducks*

Of the two, she's more likely to notice Cher than Leo.

[Clio]

Oh, absolutely!  I'd do the same.

And I think that’s what we’re saying here. It’s not illegal, and there are always chances that the relationship is genuine. Even if it’s just transactional, that’s totally up to them. The problem comes with the imbalance of power and those who abuse that. Leo? I don’t know. He could just be immature. Cher could be the same. The problem is the pattern, as Oniya and I have said, and it’s not surprising that it bothers many people. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it can’t still cause harm, so it’s good to keep an eye out.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I've often found older men to be a better deal than younger men who are immature compared to what I like.  I've always liked a wider age gap than most people do.  It makes me feel more comfortable.

[Deamonbane]

I've read somewhere that people's brains aren't fully developed until 25 years old? Something like that? Which is why I'd say that people who consistently look for a partner who's under that age could point to a controlling aspect of the relationship which might be unhealthy.

That said, I haven't heard of any of Leo's girlfriends voicing any complaints about how he treats them. I'm not sure if that's a good indicator for what's going on, though. My going theory is that he's in need of a beard, as it were, but that's neither here nor there.

The power dynamics involved is what gets most people to raise their eyebrows. Is it illegal for a boss to date an employee? Not necessarily. It's also not technically illegal for professors to date of-age students. But there's a reason why both these examples are frowned upon if not outright banned in most places of business and universities and is a liability insurance nightmare.

As was said before, what's going on in the privacy of their relationship is between them.  Doesn't mean we can't comment on the potential for power imbalances and the abuses which have been perpetuated under similar conditions in the past.

[Clio]

I've read somewhere that people's brains aren't fully developed until 25 years old? Something like that? Which is why I'd say that people who consistently look for a partner who's under that age could point to a controlling aspect of the relationship which might be unhealthy.

That said, I haven't heard of any of Leo's girlfriends voicing any complaints about how he treats them. I'm not sure if that's a good indicator for what's going on, though. My going theory is that he's in need of a beard, as it were, but that's neither here nor there.

The power dynamics involved is what gets most people to raise their eyebrows. Is it illegal for a boss to date an employee? Not necessarily. It's also not technically illegal for professors to date of-age students. But there's a reason why both these examples are frowned upon if not outright banned in most places of business and universities and is a liability insurance nightmare.

As was said before, what's going on in the privacy of their relationship is between them.  Doesn't mean we can't comment on the potential for power imbalances and the abuses which have been perpetuated under similar conditions in the past.

Agreed.

[Trigon]

I'm inclined to say that the "half your age plus 7 rule" generally breaks down outside of a narrow range of ages. For example, by the age of 50 the younger partner is 32...

But beyond that, I don't think there is anything wrong with large age gaps at least in principle. My personal experience has been that it matters much less when both partners are older. Say, one is 30 and the other is 40+ vs one being 20 and the other 30+. Generally I don't go younger than about 24, but that's just me.

[Trigon]

Here are some statistics regarding age gap relationships if you want to take a look: https://relationshipsadvice.co/age-gap-relationship-statistics/#t-1665985537165

Apparently it is far more common among same sex couples, particularly men. And in the USA, it is more socially acceptable for the male to be older.

[Forsaken]

I find it interesting that in an age where "acceptance" is a big thing as well as identity and personal freedom that it is considered ok to shame an older man x younger woman relationship.

There are a lot of assumptions that are made to allow the shaming;

*  The woman is being manipulated/coerced in some way - because she is young and doesn't have a clue.
* The man is paying her. Could be the case but lets be honest the man tends to pay in most cases anyway, in some form or another.
* The man is controlling her or can't handle a woman his own age, needs to have some little doe that he can have superiority over.

I recently saw a Youtube clip where older women are trying to shame younger women. Telling them not to have relationships with older men. Basically these older women are jealous and feel threatened.

Shaming is the main tool employed in all cases of course. The problem is the shaming of men and white heterosexual men in particular has become so common that most of us don't give a shit anymore.

[Starling]

Okay, I'll be prefacing this by saying that I do not live in the US.

However, could the general acceptance of a fictional 40-something-year-old dating a 19-year-old, be partially attributed to the fact that the person is indeed fictional and thus can be predicted? We can know much more about that person, and we can assume based on that whether or not they can be trusted to not take advantage of the 19-year-old's lack of experience with the wider world and people in general. There is more than one type of intelligence mind you, and experience is just as important as the knowledge itself. Especially in real life. 

Also, in fiction, fictional people get harmed. Not real ones. It's easier to sleep at night knowing that, I guess. 

Hence Leonardo Di Caprio's romances are frowned upon because they are very real, and because real human beings as so much less predictable, so much more complicated, and less trustworthy than fictional characters. This is a very real barely-and-adult, potentially with far less experience dating a man whose intentions we can't truly know because all he shows is a crafted public persona... We don't truly know if his relationship is a healthy one or not, and just the possibility that it might not be, is made worse by this age gap that increases the chances of this being an unhealthy relationship. 

Also, as someone has mentioned, Di Caprio seems to have a preference, a predilection to dating people below the age when the brain finishes developing - around the age of 25 - who are more likely to be impulsive (not that they will be, just are more likely to be). I feel if he stuck it out and still dated them even after this point, it'd be less weird. But he dumps them once they become, I guess "too mature" for him mentally. And he is not the only celebrity - heck, male celebrities are not the only ones who indulge in this - to do so. Besides, it can be seen as a status thing. If you're that rich, famous, and successful, many more will know you and thus potentially want to date you, many more young, attractive folk you can hang off your shoulder as decoration. Or that's how it reads. Besides, you mention that the character the cop fell for was "intelligent". Not much of a personality, but it means we know something about her. We never get to know anything about Di Caprio's dates, just that they are young. It reduces them to their age and does no favours to either party. 

... And perhaps that's what worries people most. The reality of it. 

It's no longer a fantasy, and therefore, the unsaid rules change.

And, hey, I ain't saying whether it's right or wrong. For all we know, Leonardo's relationships could be perfectly healthy, and happy relationship and the two just then go their separate ways because they got what they wanted and they're ready to move on. I think it's just that the other partner is barely into adulthood, maybe the younger partner reminds parents of a daughter they'd wish to protect from potentially sketchy folk because she's of a similar age to their own children, or maybe it icks out people her age because they don't really trust guys in general, especially older ones.  

Plus, Hollywood has, in general, a nasty history of sexual abuse/harassment. (Often between older guys and younger women/girls.) Which doesn't boost confidence. 

I can see why people are worried about both older men dating much younger women and older women dating much younger men, but I can also consider the idea that maybe in some cases it really is just an overreaction and things are okay. 

Still, these things very much depend on individual circumstances and we won't know if DiCaprio is taking advantage of anyone until they speak up. 

Innocent until proven guilty and all that. 

However, I'd probably inform someone in that 19-25 age range if a celebrity who was dating them had such a pattern, as others have mentioned. It's not like young adults can't figure things out for themselves and don't have any critical thinking ability.