Moving the Winter Olympics...

Started by Caela, August 08, 2013, 06:50:51 PM

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Kythia

#250
Mmmm, perhaps you're right there. 

I still remain very unconvinced that (gay) PDAs are being made illegal though, to be honest.

Yeah - the more I read of it.  The only thing I can see is assertions in this thread that PDAs will be made illegal.  Nothing in any mainstream media anywhere else (though obviously I haven't checked every single one) and the translation of the law:

QuotePropaganda is the act of distributing information among minors that 1) is aimed at the creating nontraditional sexual attitudes, 2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive, 3) equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or 4) creates an interest in nontraditional sexual relations.

makes it difficult to see how it could be illegal - at least for any sensible reading of "distributing information".  Of course, translation is a tricky subject so it could be that some nuances are lost.  But honestly, I think there's a misconception here.
242037

Avis habilis

Quote from: Kythia on August 27, 2013, 10:50:57 AM
at least for any sensible reading of "distributing information".

The point of the law isn't to to be read sensibly. It's to provide a legal fig leaf. Anything you do where minors could see you could be labeled "distributing information" that "creates an interest".

Kythia

Quote from: Avis habilis on August 27, 2013, 11:06:24 AM
The point of the law isn't to to be read sensibly. It's to provide a legal fig leaf. Anything you do where minors could see you could be labeled "distributing information" that "creates an interest".

Yeah, certainly that's true and as I've said a load of interpretation of a law rests on the courts, prosecutors, police, etc.  But I'm not sure where your certainty comes from?  The law could just as easily be written to make those things unarguably illegal but it wasn't.  "Distributing information" was chosen as opposed to, I dunno, "Public displays of non-traditional sexual attitudes".

242037

Ephiral

Vagueness is a strength, not a weakness. In the context of a society that embraces virulently anti-gay attitudes, that vagueness will tend strongly to the most oppressive interpretations. This is legalism as applied to gay people.

Kythia

*shrug*

Perhaps you're right, obviously I don't know for sure.  I do question your certainty on the matter, to be honest, but at the end of the day I'm not sure how much better the law is even if kissing your girlfriend in public is legal.

Dashenka - if you're still reading this thread.  Any danger of a native speaker's translation on what it says?  Just out of curiosity, really, I'm not certain of the provenance of my translation.
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Dashenka

Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Caela

Quote from: Dashenka on August 27, 2013, 11:50:45 AM
What what says?

The law as it's actually written in Russian. I believe Kythia is asking a native speaker to read it in it's original form and comment on the translations we're getting.

Blythe

#257
Quote from: Kythia on August 27, 2013, 10:50:57 AM
I still remain very unconvinced that (gay) PDAs are being made illegal though, to be honest.

Considering how kissing people on the mouth is pretty much okay (and normal) publicly in Russia, I really doubt PDAs will be illegal with this law.  Way too many "normal" straight people would be in trouble for a cultural norm. The term "PDA" probably would have different connotations in Russia that it would to someone from a Western culture.

Heck, Putin himself has kissed men on the mouth as a form of social greeting or farewell.

But to toss in my two cents, the law is still wrong. Don't think it should affect the Olympics and the athletes/fans involved--if the law does so, we shoulda insisted on moving the Olympics.


*slinks back out of PROC*

Dashenka

Quote from: Caela on August 27, 2013, 11:57:12 AM
The law as it's actually written in Russian. I believe Kythia is asking a native speaker to read it in it's original form and comment on the translations we're getting.

I haven't read it. All I know it's a law banning propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors.

Nowhere in that can I read or extrapolate 'you cannot be gay and if you are, you are being arrested.' That seems to be a doom scenario created in a lot of media. (At least it is here in the UK and in The Netherlands.)

If you paint your nails in all the colours of the rainbow on the Olympics just to make a statement, then yes you have a chance of being arrested, if you go out of the Olympic Village to a bar, kiss a person of the same sex on the mouth with tongue and all, yes you probably will get arrested. If you fuck your gay partner senseless in your hotel room, nobody will arrest you. There could be debate as to what propaganda is. I have no idea what the penalty is though.

As for transgenders, I have no idea how that works. Never met one but I guess that is a bit of a vague area, as it would always be propaganda if it's obvious. But in all honestly, how many transgender athletes are there going to the Olympics?
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Kythia

Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних, выразившаяся в распространении информации, направленной на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок, привлекательности нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, искаженного представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, либо навязывание информации о нетрадиционных сексуальных отношениях, вызывающей интерес к таким отношениям, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, — влечет наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц — от сорока тысяч до пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц — от восьмисот тысяч до одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток.
242037

Ephiral

#260
Quote from: Dashenka on August 27, 2013, 12:18:46 PMAs for transgenders, I have no idea how that works. Never met one but I guess that is a bit of a vague area, as it would always be propaganda if it's obvious. But in all honestly, how many transgender athletes are there going to the Olympics?
Are only Olympic athletes entitled to their rights under Russian constitution and treaty, then?

EDIT: Or, once again, entitled to walk out the front door?

Dashenka

#261
Promotion of non-traditional sexual relations among minors expressed in the spreading of information aimed at:

developing non-traditional sexual juvenile activities,
making non-traditional sexual relations attractive,
creating a distorted picture of the social views of traditional and non-traditional sexual relations
or the spreading of information on non-traditional sexual relationships, causing interest in such relationships.

If these actions do not have a criminal offense they are punishable by an administrative fine of 4000 ($120) to 5000 ($150) rubles for officials,

from 40.000 ($1200) to 50.000 ($1500) rubles for legal entities

and in case of a criminal offense, from 800.000 ($24.000) to 1.000.000 or imprisonment  for up to 90 days.


Roughly translated. Not entirely sure if the fines are correct. That doesn't make sense to me. Would make more sense if it was the other way around. My guess, if it happens once you get a fine, if it happens more than once it'll be seen as a criminal offense and you'll risk MAX 90 days in prison.

Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

gaggedLouise

Thanks for providing the translation, Dashenka.

I was wondering about the prison option: is "stacking of prison terms" practised in Russia? So that five separate cases of an offence, or five victims/targets, can get you five times as long a jail term?

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 27, 2013, 12:55:28 PM
Thanks for providing the translation, Dashenka.

I was wondering about the prison option: is "stacking of prison terms" practised in Russia? So that five separate cases of an offence, or five victims/targets, can get you five times as long a jail term?

Long term I think none of Putin's rival went away for a long time for a dozen supposed tax offenses

Dashenka

Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 27, 2013, 12:55:28 PM
Thanks for providing the translation, Dashenka.

I was wondering about the prison option: is "stacking of prison terms" practised in Russia? So that five separate cases of an offence, or five victims/targets, can get you five times as long a jail term?

I've never heard of it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They might also split the sentence. Let's say if a man kisses a man. He can get punished for the kiss and for the propaganda. In theory.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

gaggedLouise

#265
Quote from: Callie Del Noire on August 27, 2013, 01:00:35 PM
Long term I think none of Putin's rival went away for a long time for a dozen supposed tax offenses

They have a tradition of long prison terms ever since the days of the Tsars. But I've never heard of anyone getting sentenced to, let's say, six hundred years in jail for fraud in sixty different bogus companies.´But my ignorance doesn't prove it could not exist.

EDIT: Thanks, Dashenka.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Kythia

It struck me as odd to see the fines given in monetary amounts in the body of the law.  There's a country that doesn't give a solitary fuck about inflation.
242037

meikle

Quote2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive
every time i leave my house i'm making nontraditional sexual relations attractive
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

O and O and Discord
A and A

Kythia

Quote from: meikle on August 27, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
every time i leave my house i'm making nontraditional sexual relations attractive
And now you've spread information about it.  You criminal.

Your face makes non-traditional sexual relations attrati...no, wait.  That doesn't work. Yo momma's so fat that she something something non-traditional sexual relations.

Note to self - Must avoid PROC whilst drinking.
242037

Oniya

Quote from: Kythia on August 27, 2013, 02:11:32 PM
And now you've spread information about it.  You criminal.

Your face makes non-traditional sexual relations attrati...no, wait.  That doesn't work. Yo momma's so fat that she something something non-traditional sexual relations.

Note to self - Must avoid PROC whilst drinking.

Always a wise idea.  PWI is one of the leading causes of foot-in-mouth disease.  ;)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Dashenka

Quote from: meikle on August 27, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
every time i leave my house i'm making nontraditional sexual relations attractive

Don't leave your house then.

Thank you for this incredibly usefull point. It really helps the discussion. Wish I could communicate like you.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Trieste

Quite right. By keeping your disturbingly faggy face at home, you pay appropriate respect to those poor homophobic religious people. Good for you.

And I don't even have the excuse of having been drinking.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Oniya on August 27, 2013, 02:19:37 PM
Always a wise idea.  PWI is one of the leading causes of foot-in-mouth disease.  ;)

Pro Wrestling Illustrated`, I presume.

Um...but wasn't that ear-in-mouth?

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

meikle

Quote from: Trieste on August 27, 2013, 02:46:36 PM
Quite right. By keeping your disturbingly faggy face at home, you pay appropriate respect to those poor homophobic religious people. Good for you.

And I don't even have the excuse of having been drinking.

There's a kind of funky disconnect, isn't there?  You need to respect other people when they try to marginalize you and treat you as a second class citizen!  It's disrespectful to tell them what to do!

Isn't that pretty fucking hypocritical?  Isn't it disrespectful when they tell us what to do?

No, because they're the majority, so we should just be glad they're locking people in their houses instead of doing public executions, because it's Right as long as it makes the majority happy.
Kiss your lover with that filthy mouth, you fuckin' monster.

O and O and Discord
A and A

Oniya

#274
Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 27, 2013, 03:38:38 PM
Pro Wrestling Illustrated`, I presume.

Um...but wasn't that ear-in-mouth?

Posting While Intoxicated.  ;D  Like DWI only different.  (And Tyson v. Holyfield was a boxing match.  I probably shouldn't admit to knowing that...)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17