Help me out of my Table-Top rut?

[Zekromnomnom]

I've been trying to branch out as far as role playing games and systems go for a while, but I seem to have trouble finding anyone that's willing to give me a lot of experienced opinions about them. I can read reviews and stuff, but it's not nearly the same as getting the kind of information and opinions from people who have actually played the systems.

I cut my teeth on D&D 3.0/5 and have been playing for around ten years, but it has always had its ups and downs. At one point it was my goal to get a job at Wizards of the Coast after college. Then a lot of stuff went wrong (and I'm not talking about 4E *ba-dum pshh!*) I always really liked the settings and atmosphere, but the longer I play, the further I get from the good feeling it always gave me before. Part of it is the changes and part of it is the kinda crappy Pathfinder group I have, but I feel like I need to expand my experiences.

So with that being said, what are some other games people really enjoy? I'll say as a disclaimer that I'm not really that much looking for realism in my games. I know a lot of people like it, and more power to them, but I want my escape to be as far from reality as possible most of the time, you know? And a second disclaimer, I don't know that that many people will post anything or even read this, but I would prefer we keep the discussions civil. If Jim says he likes Caves and Coatls a lot, even if you hate the game or it makes a complete mockery of Aztec culture, please be polite and don't pick apart all the bad things about the game or argue in the thread.

With that being said, one I have been looking at for a while, but never seem to have the money when I'm at a gaming store, is Savage Worlds. I like the ideas behind some of the settings, like Necessary Evils or Weird War. And I hear the system is good for use in multiple genres. So, thoughts? Experiences? Anecdotes? Opinions?

And feel free to submit other things you think I or someone else uninformed might get a kick out of.

[Avis habilis]

In short order Atlas Games will be releasing the second edition of Feng Shui, the game of every Hong Kong action movie ever. Think of it as The Killer & Wong Fei Hung join forces to fight Big Trouble in Little China. Crazy good times, no hang ups about being faithful to any "reality" other than that of the HK action genre.

If you're open to story games, my favorite is definitely Fiasco (www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/). Players take a set of story building blocks called a playset & improvise what amounts to a Coen brothers movie. You can watch a game (played on Table Top by Wil Wheaton, Bonnie Burton, Alison Haislip & John Rogers) here: part 1 part 2

In the more traditional fantasy line, Castles & Crusades is a nice light alternative to heavier OGL-based games. I even managed to have fun playing the gnome illusionist, so that says something.

[Zekromnomnom]

While I think I would find something like Feng Shui fun, I get the feeling it would be a hard sell with my friends. And I'm not even talking about the crappy Pathfinder group that all think of themselves as "cool nerds" and call a LOT of people neck beards. But my other friends, like the good roleplayers. But I will definitely take a look sometime.

And I've watched a lot of the other episodes of Table Top but I never watched that one. I'll have to check it out.

I feel like I may have heard of Castles & Crusades, but I may be thinking of something else. I should really be writing these down *runs off to grab a pen*

Some day, I think I would like to try my hand at designing a system, but I don't know if I could really grasp the concept of creating new mechanics or modifying old ones.

[Beorning]

You could try playing GURPS :) Although the system is more on the realistic side...

[Zekromnomnom]

I've heard of GURPS but never really anything about it. A friend of mine mentioned not liking it once, but he never really said why.

[Beorning]

GURPS is a generic simulationist system that is designed to be used in different genres and settings. The basic rules are simple enough, but can be expanded with tons of optional rules, if you want to make your game very crunchy :) Also, the character creation can be a bit daunting, as it involves checking through over 100 pages of possible skills, advantages, disadvantages etc. But if you like details...

Overall, GURPS is a bit addictive, as the system has tons of sourcebook for everything. Wanna have more options in combat? Read the Martial Art sourcebook. You don't like the default system for magic? Here's the Thaumatology sourcebook with many different approaches to simulating magic? Wanna have a detailed system for dealing with superpowers? Pick up the Powers sourcebook... There are also sourcebook for specific game genres, historical settings etc. Oh, and the three sourcebooks about equipment are just... nerdgasmic :)

Personally, I like GURPS, although I have yet to run it. But I already own a whole shelf of GURPS stuff... :)

[Avis habilis]

There's also Scion, from White Wolf. The players are the semi-mortal children of one or another god (Thor, Athena, Osiris, Raiden, &c.), & get together to fight monstrous enemies of their divine parents.

[Beorning]

Speaking of White Wolf, there are also World of Darkness games (basically, horror games with vampire / werewolf / mage / other supernatural creature protagonists), as well as Exalted (epic fantasy with big manga influence).

[Chris Brady]

White Wolf no longer exists.  They're known as Onyx Path now.

As someone who's been a DM/GM for nigh on 30 years, my PM box is always open, Zek.  I've played quite a few RPGs, and if I haven't odds are I've heard of it.  But I'm just one opinion.

[Beorning]

White Wolf no longer exists.  They're known as Onyx Path now.

True, but the games are still being published. And they will always be White Wolf games for me...

[HairyHeretic]

Here's a list of a few systems I enjoy

Dresden Files - Urban fantasy, based in the same universe as the novel series
Scion - Already mentioned
Exalted - Similar to Scion (kinda), except in an over the top magitech setting.
Legend of the Five Rings - Samurai game.
Qin - Roleplaying in Mythic China. If you enjoy Wu Xia movies, this is the same type of game.
Any of the Warhammer 40,000 RPGs - Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Death Watch, Black Crusade

[Zekromnomnom]

Go to sleep for eight hours and my thread is just blowing up :P

That sounds like a lot of options, Beorning. That kind of reminds me of when a friend of mine bought a Mutants and Masterminds game and then we say just how much customization there is for powers in that game. I'll definitely do a bit of research. Though at this point I'm more looking to pick up like...the core book and maybe a book of monsters and a setting book or something (although I realize some games might be better about not making you buy the core three as three, since I got my start with a system that uses three core books). I kind of feel like my group would not be into World of Darkness, both because of its flavor and because of its higher focus on story telling.

I've heard of Scion before, too, but that's the first time someone has summarized it for me. One of my roommates is a big fan of Percy Jackson, so I bet I could get her on board for something like that. And I had a friend who used to play exalted, but he was kind of out there and we don't talk much anymore. He always made it sound interesting, but maybe a little complicated for me at the same time (then again, this was the guy who took an hour to transfer his character making notes onto his 3.5 character sheet because he would write really tiny and precisely and fill the margins with his way too long for the group we were in background).

Chris Brady, outside of a D&D system, what was the most recent thing you've played?

Hairy, what is your avatar from? Also, I never actually tried reading any of the Dresden files. Although I've read most of his Alera books. A friend of mine I haven't seen in like five years had a Legend of the Five Rings book. I think. Did it or one edition of it, anyway, use a d20 system? I love Wu Xia movies, but my friends might not be down for Qin. And I didn't actually know Warhammer had like RPGs associated. I kind of just always assumed it was just a miniatures game or something.

[Chris Brady]

Zek, Hairy's avatar is from the 2008 movie The Forbidden Kingdom.

Games I've played, recently.  Well, on top of Hairy's list, and played more recently, I've played FFG's Edge of Empire Star Wars, Pathfinder, HERO system, Margaret Weis' Marvel Heroic Roleplaying and Mutants and Masterminds 3rd.

I'm currently running a M&M 3rd campaign, and a new session this Sunday.

(Scion and Exalted are massive undertakings for a new GM.)

[Beorning]

Go to sleep for eight hours and my thread is just blowing up :P

But isn't it wonderful? So much to read about :)

That sounds like a lot of options, Beorning. That kind of reminds me of when a friend of mine bought a Mutants and Masterminds game and then we say just how much customization there is for powers in that game. I'll definitely do a bit of research. Though at this point I'm more looking to pick up like...the core book and maybe a book of monsters and a setting book or something (although I realize some games might be better about not making you buy the core three as three, since I got my start with a system that uses three core books).

Just to help you out: GURPS is currently in its 4th Edition. There are two core books: Characters (which is mostly about character creation, although it gives the basics of rules, too) and Campaigns (which is about GMing, world-building etc.). There is no separate "bestiary book" for GURPS 4E, but there are a few sourcebooks with various creatures for earlier editions. Also, the 4E setting books include various ideas for monsters. Although... they aren't exactly setting books, they're more like "genre" books. GURPS is a crunchy system, but the storytelling aspect isn't neglected. So, instead of specific settings, GURPS has books about fiction genres: Fantasy, Space (meaning, sci-fi), Horror, Mysteries (detective fiction) etc. These books are a great read, because they take a specific genre of fiction and analyze it: they present genre themes, possible variations etc. I'd risk saying that they are worth reading even if you're not playing GURPS.

The thing with GURPS is, it's an ultimate "build your own game" kind of product. Instead of giving you a setting, it gives you ideas you can use to make your own, unique game. Personally, I love it - although I can see that it wouldn't be appealing for those players who just want to pick up one book and have a game ready.

Although... there *are* some GURPS books about specific settings. Infinite Worlds is the system kind-of-default setting, involving groups of special operatives travelling across various alternate realities and having all kinds of adventures. If you ever wanted to tell a story where the protagonists are an elf archer, a cyberpunk martial artist and a four-legged robot, all of them having adventures in, say, Victorian Britain overran by mutants, then it's a setting for you :) Also, there something called Banestorm: GURPS' kind-of-weird take on a fantasy setting. There's licensed sourcebook based on Lois M. Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga. There were others made for earlier editons, too...

Some more things I like about GURPS: it's a point-buy system, with no random rolls involved in character creation. There are also no classes or character levels: you create a unique character and, then, he / she evolves naturally by improving skills etc. Also, it's a rather realistic system: I believe the combat is much more deadly than in D&D.

Overall, you might want to explore Steve Jackson Games' website (the makers of GURPS). You'll find detailed descriptions for all GURPS books there. Also, you might get GURPS Lite there - which is a free, stripped-down version of GURPS for those interested in trying it out.

I kind of feel like my group would not be into World of Darkness, both because of its flavor and because of its higher focus on story telling.

I see. Still, you might want to explore these games, too... They are quite impressive. For instance, Changeling: the Lost? In my opinion, it may be one of the most beautiful RPGs ever made.

[HairyHeretic]

Scion is probably my favourite RPG. Second edition is currently in the works. One of my favourite moments was beating down a minotaur using another minotaur  ;D Percy Jackson is a fairly good analogy for it.

Exalted is a very rich and detailed setting, but the rules can be a bit heavy for some tastes. Both are good if you enjoy an over the top game.

There was sort of a d20 version of L5R. The 2nd edition rules (IIRC) were playable under d10 or d20. I've played it from 1st to 4th (current) edition and always used the d10. Its a good game, but the Samurai mindset can be tricky for players to get. Honour and duty are far more important than wealth or even life. My longest campaign was 3 years running The City of Lies for L5R. "She bows politely in return and then explodes"  ;D

Warhammer 40k started with the miniatures, but it's spawned spin of games, computer games, novels and RPGs as well. Its another very rich background.

Necessary Evil is a fun campaign, though I'd probably be inclined to look for a different rule set to play it with. Savage Worlds is okay, but I think there are better Supers rules.

[Zekromnomnom]

Well, I'll definitely take a look at GURPS. And Scion. And I mean...I think myself and another of my friends might really like L5R, but I don't know if most would be down for the samurai thing. I can think of at least three of them that decidedly wouldn't.

I was always kind of interested in the idea of Warhammer 40K but it always seemed like I would have to read a LOT about it. But I think I'll give it a look.

I want to look once more at my friend's Mutants and Masterminds book, but I need to find it first.

And if I can find a cheap copy of the core Savage Worlds book on Amazon, since I screwed up and accidentally bought Prime for a year, I might as well pick it up and see how it is.

Anyone here played Little Fears? I bought the PDF for like three dollars and love the idea, but I don't know that my friends would be down for playing little kids.

[kylie]

         Maybe beyond the scope of what you've asked for, but...  Have you considered designing your own system?  Or is that perhaps, anywhere down the road? 

         I don't think you said precisely what nagged you about D&D post-3.5 ...  (And I really have no opinion on 3.5 either.)  In other words:  I wonder what exactly you are trying to find in a system.  I haven't done a lot with system games for years, myself...  But I've found that when I do at least think about running a story with some system (at least a small one), shaping my own miniature system can be a relief.  Presumably you know what sort of genre and particular atmosphere you want to play, so you have some idea what the mechanics should control and how they should feel when they are used.

         For an example of what inspires me though, I would go back all the way to Top Secret SI.  I think it was First Edition, though I've forgotten and maybe it was Second.  I was in like, barely high school.  Hee.  Anyway, I loved the derivation of various secondary character attributes each from two or three primary ones.  I liked having a system that could do a lot with straight percentage rolls, including figuring crits right into the roll.  I liked that it was an elegant numbers system.  No need for ten kinds of dice, or a hundred of them on the table -- pretty as they are.  Who knows, maybe I even liked the brutal simplicity of the notion that each single toss of the dice could be very important -- the system did not seem to demand rolling all that often unless something "serious" was happening?  And if you could think of other professional knowledge areas, you could probably add them (or build a story just around them, if you wanted) and convert them readily into success tests. 

        Twilight: 2000 (I had the 1st ed.) was another game that did much the same thing a couple years later, with a slightly different genre, more gear and some different "primary" stats oriented more toward a combat focus. 

         Many years later, I ran a PM game here with Mia Saisyu using an attributes test system based on that.  Nothing to do with the espionage world envisioned in Top Secret or the postwar dystopia of Twilight...  But a very similar mechanical foundation with very different character and narrative foci.  It wasn't a very complex system, per se.  I had huge leeway to plot the difficulty of challenges and a range of possible outcomes; there was no campaign or creature "source book" purchased in advance with neat tables of what stock encounters might bring.  But kinky and bizarre situations -- inside a computer adventure no less -- are what Mia wanted, and that meant envisioning things in slightly surreal arrangements.  More generally speaking: I like to think there should be room for creative flex (even fudging the stats of the "plan" as you go) when designing something that is supposed to have both story and a kind of paced challenge.  It's sometimes work but if you have enough adventure plan, it can be fun work and you may get more of what you came for. 

          I'm a little dubious about how far any one published system can fit so many particular people (or at least my particular story tastes), though.  I too played some D&D once upon a time, and between finding players and working "around" the particulars of the system, it could be a hassle trying to get what you wanted out of most of the books.  We did have quite a bit of fun, too.  But I think most of it was when we focused on story/ adventure with only a few key mechanics and then things moved so fast dramatically, we were usually happy to leave the rule books out of it.

         Anyway, I hope you can find the kind of system you like.   ;)

[HairyHeretic]

I've heard of Little Fears, but never played it.

If you want to look at some of these games, there are probably quite a few of them have been played out here. I've run Scion, L5R and some of the 40k ones. I expect some of the other games that might interest you may have been run here as well.

It's not as good as sitting around a table, but it might give you some idea of how they play.

[Zekromnomnom]

         Maybe beyond the scope of what you've asked for, but...  Have you considered designing your own system?  Or is that perhaps, anywhere down the road? 

Honestly, yes, I very much want to design my own system somewhere down the road, but at this point, honestly all that I've ever played is stuff based on a d20 system and I'm not really confident in my ability to work through mechanical aspects. Because I do want rolling involved, and possibly a lot of it, but I'm not sure, really. It's just...the task seems really daunting and while I consider myself fairly smart, I'm pretty bad with numbers and such. Part of it is that I think if I had even a little idea of how some other systems work (cause I seriously have no idea with most of them), then when I go and try to design my own, it's not basically just going to be D&D but magic runs on "mana points" and the basic party consists of Priest, Thief, Soldier, and Arcanist or something. At some point, if I can, I might even want to try to get it published, probably as like a super cheap PDF, as I don't really think I could make a hugely popular thing.

So short answer to your question: yes, very much yes, I want to design a system.

Hairy, I suppose I never really thought of that. I might take a look sometime when I have time.

[HairyHeretic]

There are quite a few different mechanics you can use in a game.

You're familiar with the d20 one. Single dice roll against a target number, with or without modifiers
Percentile dice. Single d100 roll, with or without modifiers, against a target number. (FFGs Warhammer 40k games)
Dice pool, usually derived from characters abilites / skills etc. Roll X dice (maybe keep all, maybe keep some). Total up results and check against a target number (L5R, 7th Sea)
Dice pool, where a score of X or better on a single dice is a Success. Target will be Y success. (WoD, Scion, Exalted)
Weird dice for storytelling results (look at FFGs new Star Wars game)

There are probably quite a few others, but those are the ones I can remember just off the top of my head.

[Beorning]

Another game proposal for you, Zek: Call of Cthulhu. It's a classic, if a bit archaic rules-wise, game...

And Hairy, you could try running one of WH40K games for Zek and me...  8-)

[HairyHeretic]

I've tried running a variety of 40k games before, but unfortunately they never seem to go that well :/

[kylie]

       If you want something less dice-oriented and more talky or ideally character-based, look into Amber.  Where in theory the highest stat in the room just tends to dominate a given situation (all else being equal, which of course should be the rub I'd say). 

       And there's a great deal of excitement around buying additional, original attribute points through player tasks (e.g. composing an actual diary for your character as you go) and "bidding" to see who gets the highest scores in the room, and maybe even deciding whether to put in just a little in some area that might totally change the outcome where others have put in none.

        I suspect maybe Hairy can think of a neat shorthand name for systems of this sort.  ;)   But I've only played it once so I dunno what it's commonly termed (except that they do advertise it as "diceless"). 

[Chris Brady]

Diceless is what it's called, and it's one of the worst RPG experiences I've ever had.  And the DM advice in it is among the most terrible player vs. player schlock I had the misfortune of having inflicted on me.  It's as bad as the Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads, the Cyberpunk 2020 DM guide, which I owned because I loved Cyberpunk 2020.

[HairyHeretic]

Yeah, Diceless is the term I've seen. The only games I know that use that are Amber and Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, neither of which I've played.

One other slightly odd mechanic was in Castle Falkenstein, which used a deck of playing cards (the rational being the characters were upper class types, who played cards, while the riffraff played dice).

[Zekromnomnom]

I have the next four days off, so I might look around some for more information. Or just play the new used video games I bought.

Hairy, yeah, I've only ever read the rules on one system that wasn't d20 based and that was for Little Fears, which uses dice pools. But I have been making a list of things to look into. Also found some interesting stuff when I googled "free table top games". Also, dumb question. In those percentile ones, do you just use the d% dice or is there some kind of special hundred sided die that actually rolls well that people use for those games? Cause my d100 rolled for crap and never stopped.

Beorning: a friend of a friend of mine had a Call of Cthulhu book and wanted to run it, but we were all tired and hung over that day. And the one who actually owned the book was super annoying so we didn't see him after like the day he was visiting.

Kylie, while I might be down to try something like this, I think with the current people I have in my gaming group, dice are necessary to hold attention a bit more and I feel like without more rules and crunch, they would get a bit out of hand, honestly. For the people I do my favorite hobby in the world with, they sure annoy the ever-loving hell out of me. And they would probably be "too cool" for it.



On another note, last night, I decided to try and take a stab at an idea I had to work out the mechanics of it. I didn't get that far, as I was really really tired, but it was a fun little exercise. Just hard to work it quite the way I wanted to. This first trial seems to be too numbers heavy.

[HairyHeretic]

I've never seen an actual 100 sided dice. Anyone I've ever known who played games that used that particular mechanic rolled a pair of d10s.

[Beorning]

Beorning: a friend of a friend of mine had a Call of Cthulhu book and wanted to run it, but we were all tired and hung over that day. And the one who actually owned the book was super annoying so we didn't see him after like the day he was visiting.

Call of Cthulhu is a horror game based on the works of H.P. Lovecraft. As I said, it's considered a classic, currently in its 6th edition. It's a good game, although I'd risk saying that it shows that the game has been designed years ago. The rules are quite simple - too simple, in fact, for my taste (all skill checks made without any modifiers related to the task's difficulty??? Bleh!). Also, the game's art and writing style could use some refreshing... Especially the art doesn't hold the candle to what new games look like.

On the other hand, the game does some effort to replicate Lovecraft's ideas - and actually has rules that enforces them. If you ever read Lovecraft's works, you might've noticed that his protagonists often end up insane... well, the game is designed that way that this is exactly what happens to many characters :) You see, it has all those fun rules that make the characters lose their sanity drop by drop... and it even has a rule that the more character knows about the various mysteries, the easier it is for this character to go insane. It perfectly mirrors HPL's idea that humans are unable to cope with the reality of the cosmos...

So, it can be a fun game. Just be prepared for a really outdated design of the book - and of some game rules, too.

I've never seen an actual 100 sided dice. Anyone I've ever known who played games that used that particular mechanic rolled a pair of d10s.

I've seen a d100 at the gaming shop I buy stuff. I considered buying it, but it costed about ten times the price of a normal die, so I decided that it wasn't worth it. Especially that you can do d100 rolls with two d10s without any problem...

[Zekromnomnom]

I broke mine....

[Avis habilis]

Behold, the Zocchihedron.

[kylie]

        Yes, Amber -- Only played it once, but I do suppose you want a balanced group of people to actually keep the drama going.  If not, well -- someone is probably going to hate me for this comparison but -- you might as well play Werewolf and be more forthright about the spirit of things. 

        The one time I actually played Amber, it was at a con...  It was mostly people milling and strolling around a big room (there were a good number of people, I'd say at least 10 or so).  I had read the novels so I expected quite a bit of backstabbing, and there was.  After all, the books themselves are kind of one endless murder mystery and string of royal intrigues.  The novels keep it going by having a sense of humor -- and suspense!  They are continually adding curious people and magical puzzles or outsiders to the pool of events. 

        To be fair, only a couple people actually died in the first session that I recall.  My character was continued into a second session run by the same GM's (where she was run by another player and died -- if it matters), but I completed the first feeling she just wasn't getting anywhere.  (That wasn't the only reason I didn't go on; there were many other games on offer and I'd leaned toward other things already.  Though I wasn't much taken with it.)  At least it took some time for most of the killing to brew.  But I could tell she probably wasn't getting anywhere -- between the mix of characters, and the player cliques and styles while I was there.

          I don't know if Amber recommends this by design (I didn't have the books), but one thing I noticed was that players were given widely disparate allotments of initial points. I don't recall if that was the result of bidding itself, but I think it had something to do with how the GM's arranged that particular game.  It was very difficult for some of us to compete on attributes at all that way -- we might win among attributes where few had invested, but I think some people were just unlikely to end up with any top score attributes among the population.  While in a way it's vaguely realistic, I didn't really like facing that sort of problem within that system to begin with...  But then I suppose, book or no book not everyone has to arrange it that way.

[Zekromnomnom]

That kind of sounds like something that would make my players bitch a lot. I just don't have the group for it right now.

[Beorning]

How about your group playing Mutants & Masterminds? I have the 2nd Ed (and I refuse to acknowledge the existence of the 3rd  ;D ) and it's a pretty good game. And it's related to other D20 games, so your group wouldn't have much trouble to learn it.

[Zekromnomnom]

I dunno which one we have, but the one time I was looking it over, I was a bit daunted by the complexity of picking abilities. But I suppose sometime I could try to run a game like that.

I maybe should have prefaced all this with saying that I'm kind of an inexperienced DM.

[Beorning]

Oh, character creation in M&M can look daunting, that's for sure... but I really think it's easier than it looks. You can always keep things simple and not mess around with all the possible modifications, extras, flaws etc. available for powers. And powers selection is the toughest part of the character creation process. Stuff like abilities, skills and feats should be easily understandable for people who have had some experience with D20 systems.

And the rest of the rules? They aren't that hard to undestand, either...

[Zekromnomnom]

Apparently my bank cancelled my other Goddamn order because of some dumb policy of theirs.

[HairyHeretic]

I maybe should have prefaced all this with saying that I'm kind of an inexperienced DM.

Every GM is to start with, grasshopper :)

You can learn some from listening to others, but you'll learn the most through doing.

[Zekromnomnom]

I'm actually going to be working on a 3.5 game for a new player or two, as well as an old friend who was always pretty good as a player, but better as a DM. We'll be switching of DMing. I should be working on that right now, but I think I need some caffeine. I'm sleepy.

[Chris Brady]

3.x is a LOT of work.  Even for someone like me (whom I'll not claim is an expert, rather someone experienced at GMing  I like to think 29 years of it is enough to make me know a thing or two at least.  :P)  Hats off to ya.

[Zekromnomnom]

3.x is a LOT of work.  Even for someone like me (whom I'll not claim is an expert, rather someone experienced at GMing  I like to think 29 years of it is enough to make me know a thing or two at least.  :P)  Hats off to ya.

I know what you mean. It's actually the only system I've ever used, and I've probably been DM maybe seven times in as many years, all for games that ended up as one shots. But I'm still very inexperienced. Kind of makes me glad some of the players are new. I really need to draw some maps and stuff and hope they don't decide to tunnel in through the back of the goblin cave or something crazy like that. I'm pretty far behind, though.

[Beorning]

3.x is a LOT of work.

Out of curiosity: why is that? Is this system that complicated?

[HairyHeretic]

Every game takes a fair amount of work, which some players never realise til they're the ones in the hot seat.

[Zekromnomnom]

So I think I'm going to try running a little Savage Worlds game. But I'm itching to get my next paycheck so I can buy something else to try or at least read through.

[RubySlippers]

I play AD&D 1st Edition ,yes the group is a mix of old codgers and younger players, and I love it and even DM a game now and then. I don't care how old the rules are a classic DnD set of rules is a gem to play and run.

Okay it is an easy set to get down, but once you do its just simple down home fun.

[Zekromnomnom]

I have a friend that swears by AD&D but to my knowledge he's never really played it. I tend to stick with 3.X because it's my first and I'm the only player in the group all that willing to try new things by running it.

Right now, that's honestly by far my biggest issue. I'm the only one willing to run anything. Sure, my roommate will GM a Pathfinder module but he kind of butchers the story aspect of it and so do the other players. Also, I don't like Golarion as a setting. My only other nearby friends are 3.X players and one an experienced DM but he's in a new relationship so even though she wants to play with us, he's always too busy with her to write anything up.

[Greenwoodtree]

Has anyone mentioned Mouse Guard?  I didn't think I saw it. 

Its different, not too hard to get a grip on, and based on the beautiful graphic books of same name.  I recently got to set up my character in a table top game.

Character creation and play is fairly straightforward, and I found, somewhat realistic. Check it out.  I found the books at last years huge Con.

[Zekromnomnom]

I actually saw them super cheap on Amazon a few weeks ago. I love Mouse Guard but to be honest when people tell me table tops are fairly realistic, it kind of turns me away. I don't want that much realism in my games.

[Greenwoodtree]

Well, how realistic is it for mice to be battling evil with shields and armor?  ;)  The only thing the game doesnt have is magic.  That's what I mean by 'realistic.

The characterization is in depth, and role-playing is very important.  Too bad my GM is having to take a break because I created a pretty awesome little mouse dude.

[Zekromnomnom]

Oh, okay, yeah, that makes sense.

I was just thinking about this one time on some forum, someone in a table-top thread kept talking about how they preferred to have their games like real combat where it's fast and brutal and blah blah blah and the entire time I was thinking "...well...in D&D, sometimes you fight dragons, so..."

But yeah, anyway, I dunno, if I found the right group I would definitely be down for playing the Mouse Guard game.

[Frelance]

If no one has mentioned it yet you should check out Numenera. Its set a couple billion if not more years in the future where the people living on earth now see the technology from past civilizations as magic because they cannot understand it. I have not gotten a chance to play it yet but I have read through most of the core book and its laded out very simply but very interesting.

[wander]

I'll second the setting for Numenera, though I've never got far in a game. It is inspiration in a book when it comes to games though, I'd love to really get my teeth into it someday. :)

My favourite system I find fairly easy to get people into is used in Dungeon World. The corebook is fairly cheap on drivethru, it's like a simplified D&D, but in a good way. To explain a little more, it has a system of rolling 2d6 where 10+ is a pass, 7-9 are a pass but something happens and 6- is a fail but get 1xp for the trouble. It really does promote you into proactivity as even if you fail, you get xp.

You get the six D&D stats and the numbers are set, though you get to choose where they go and they give modifiers or penalties to your character's actions. Generally Str helps melee, Dex helps ranged attacks, Con helps when you defend something (not yourself), Intellect helps knowledge rolls, Wisdom helps perception rolls and Charisma helps in using leverage over people met. Each can help in a defence roll depending on what you're defending against and how you narrate your character does it.

Damage is decided by class, rather than weapon and each class gets different starting weapons with a bit of crossover, some get bows where others don't for example. Acting out the stated action your alignment gives you nets an xp in doing it and you have Bonds with each other character in the party, resolving it gives you an xp too. Levelling up is simple to figure out, simply get your current level in xp +7 to have enough to level up, then simply announce in downtime your character is reflecting on their experiences to bump up. :)

Lots more to it, but it's best to check it out yourself. :)

Oh and there's a heck of a massive amount of absolutely free stuff for it at drivethru to download too, from character classes, to pregen adventures and loads more. Not as crunchy as what some people may like, but great for putting the fun back in the hobby and makes for a great beer and pretzels one-shot that can maybe develop into more. :)

[ReijiTabibito]

Zek?  Here's a question for you.  (Well, less a question, but still technically an inquiry.)  Tell us about your table.  One of the things I've noted on this thread is that when people mention systems, you say that 'my table's not up to that.'  Tell us about the table so that we can make good suggestions.  I personally own a ton of RPGs, but I wouldn't play half of them with my table simply because I don't see them fitting well with my particular group dynamic.

[Zekromnomnom]

Haven't been on here in quite a while.

Anyway, to answer the question about my table, my table is full of overly cynical, kinda shitty people because I'm a beggar in this case and can't be choosy. The type of people I might not hang out with at all if they didn't happen to play some of the kinds of games I like. All of them are kind of fair weather nerds that actively make fun of other people for being too exhuberant in their love of their hobbies and think of themselves as "cool nerds". One of them actually used to ask me if I'd given up on pussy back in high school whenever I would try to talk about D&D or try to see if he wouldn't mind playing it with my group. The current GM is a guy I've mentioned on E before who constantly praises AD&D and retroclones because he hates/is scared of any kind of crunch or optimization, but at the same time has never really played any of the older stuff and doesn't realize his girlfriend, younger brother, and best friend would all hate playing an older game because they wouldn't like all the lack of class features because they cut their teeth on 4E and Pathfinder. And he's bad at story focused games or being descriptive or thinking on his feet.

So the group is always thinking "Do I have an ability that can help with this?" instead of "Well, a real person in this situation might think to try this?" which wouldn't work anyway because if they think outside of the box, the GM won't know what to do with it anyway. And I'm sitting there like "I know my character doesn't know these zombies resist everything but slashing damage, but I as a player know. He wouldn't let me figure it out by rolling a knowledge religion check. Do I have a slashing weapon that I can try using on it? Will he tell me the damn information then?". I guess by and large my feelings are if it's anything that someone might find dorky or cheesy, they won't want to play it because they're image obsessed people that need to feel like they're cool when pretending to fight dragons.

That being said, I get to move to Colorado in two-ish months and there I'll live with two friends who were part of my first and best group and who are honestly some of my best friends. We plan to play 5th Edition when I'm finally out there.

[ReijiTabibito]

Oh boy.  The casual gamer table.  Sorry if your table does not actually contain them.  As well as the phrase itself, but it just happens to be the short phrase I use for what you've described.

Here's a thing.  RPGs are big.  Really, really big.  Some of the biggest things out there.  They can be just as big as basketball or working on cars or other really big, more mainstream pastimes.  The problem, quite simply, is that if you are discovered to be a fan of tabletop RPGs, that almost automatically labels you as a NERD.  (For some inexplicable reason, people who like video game RPGs do not suffer this same stigma).  This is absolutely wrong.  Vin Diesel - he of the I AM GROOT/Richard B. Riddick - is a D&D player!  Matt Damon, too, if you believe that.  And Judi Dench.  JUDI DENCH, Dame of the British Empire.  You can absolutely be a nerd, be a stolid fan, and not be some quote-unquote asmthatic pimpled geek.  From your description - and I am sorry if this offends anyone - they sound like the gay guys who are trying to desperately convince people that they are not gay.  They're ashamed of what they are...which destroys their ability to cope.

And the fact that your GM seems to be stuck about a quarter century in the past doesn't help, either.  There are lots of good, exciting, new RPGs out there that are worth owning...but if the guy leading the table is constantly worried about players trying to game the system, then either he's not all that trusting of his players - he looks at every player and all he sees is a potential munchkin, or he's the sort of narcissist that knows he would take the opportunity to optimize/crunch a character in a hearbeat, and therefore everyone is just like him.  It's a very flat perception of who players at a table can be...though given your players, I might see why.

Honestly, for me?  The thing you're doing is the best thing that you can do to break the rut.  Leave the group - that you are moving gives you an excellent reason to - and don't go back.

Your table is not a table.  It is a collection of persons who are interested and yet not interested in RPGs who are led by a guy who is potentially narcissistic or paranoid.

!

Hey!  Your table should totally try Paranoia!  :P

No, but seriously.  Get yourself out of there.  Tables are more than just dice and books and character sheets and adventures.  They're social gatherings, and the people who go to them need to be comfortable in their skins as players.

[Thorne]

You could always try them on X-Crawl. There was a Kickstarter a while back, and I was a little surprised not to see more people here jumping all over it.

At risk of dating myself - X-Crawl is .. hm. Licensed Dungeon Crawling teams, doing dungeons, fighting monsters and being awesome for pay. Fortune, fame and fans - what more could anyone ask?
I suppose it's not unlike WWF, only there is a higher risk of a team getting pasted on screen. >.>

[Tuxedocat]

I am in the same camp as suggesting you should get away from this group, the way you described them. They are not healthy for you.

Here's my thinking, and maybe it isn't for you, but it is worth a shot.

Check out Roll20 or a similar service. Roll20 is the one I know of. People play a lot of d20 games there but they play other things too. I am playing Stars Without Number and Edge of the Empire there right now and I also played Dungeon World through it for a number of months before this. Adam Koebel, the guy who co-wrote Dungeon World and now runs 4 games streaming each week (if schedule holds) runs his games through Roll20, doing Stars Without Number, Shadowrun, Burning Wheel, and Apocalypse World through Roll20. (These names won't mean much to you if you only know d20, as such, but suffice to say these deviate in small or large amounts from 3.5/Pathfinder.) So there is a range of possibilities.

Basically what Roll20 or a similar service does is present a map with grid if you want it, some dice rolling online (you can do single dice, dice pools, and so forth), a place to keep character sheets, a place to leave documents containing relevant notes for the game, and if you want to use it, built in teleconferencing for the group you play with. This last point means you should at least have something like a headset with microphone so you can hear and speak.

Check that site out and if you think it's worth using, go there and ask for people who want to play a game you want to try or find other people looking for players for a game you want to try.

I currently play with 2 people from my old offline group and 2 people we met through Roll20 who turned out to be good fits for us. You aren't guaranteed you'll be successful this route, but I don't see it can be worse with the people you currently game with.

[Zekromnomnom]

Thorne, I'm going to have to google that. I'm not one hundred percent sure what you mean about it.

Tuxedocat, I'm familiar with roll20 a little. I signed up for it a long time ago when it was first open to people while they were still testing and adding things. I'm perfectly fine with the idea, but unfortunately my computer at this time is a crappy tablet and the mobile version is only available to paying members of roll20. But yeah, it's definitely something I've thought a lot about. I was going to join a game a few weeks ago before I discovered that it wouldn't work on my tablet unless I paid. It's just not something available to me right this moment, but maybe when I move.

[wander]

I think I'm going to look at Roll20... That pretty much sold me on it and I love my system games.