The Future of Space Exploration

[FantasyKitten]

This is a topic that has fascinated me since I was a little girl. In its most base form, it is simply a childish wonder and curiosity. A desire to touch the bottom of the deep end in the pool, so to speak. But recently, when viewed in a long term fashion, is it not necessary to continue exploration in the mane of survival?

As many know, NASA has been effectively crippled. The politics of where this money went instead of NASA is a topic for another discussion. Regardless, funding has been cut, the space shuttle discontinued, and with no (expedient) plans for a new mode of transportation, the future remains unclear for the United States space program. I do not know the prowess of other countries in this regard, perhaps you, reader, can shed some light on this.

The party line appears to be that the private sector will pick up the slack. Thats all fine and nice if they actually do it, but the fact remains that space exploration in this stage of development is very, very unprofitable. For this reason I am skeptical that anything will get done by them, unless there is some eccentric, motivated rich person.

This is a problem, because we are essentially in a race against ourselves. We need to colonize to survive. We are not smart enough to just hunker down on earth and be okay. How long until the earth is useless, or we nuke ourselves to death (or use some unforeseen future weapon.)

To get humanity motivated, as history shows, you need one of two things.

1. Profit potential.
2. A threat.

Since the destruction of earth is either too far away or too surreal to take seriously according to most people, we are left with making space profitable. How can we do this besides tourism? Could we mine the asteroids? Could we harness solar power at a much more efficient distance? Tell me your ideas! ^_^

-FantasyKitten

[Hemingway]

If the potential for profit is the only thing that can motivate us as a species to visit and colonize the rest of our solar system, then I think we can just forget about it. It's dangerous, it's difficult, and it's expensive. Even with a solution like what Robert Zubrin presents in The Case for Mars, going into space is a mind-bogglingly costly affair, though one that, for both obvious and less obvious reasons, is absolutely essential.

I mean, don't get me wrong. When I tell people that one of the things I most want to experience in my lifetime is human colonization of a moon or planet in our solar system, I'm not kidding.

Thankfully, I don't think profit is the only thing that can motivate us. Or, I ought to specify, that profit in the short term isn't the only thing. There are very obvious benefits to settling other worlds. And I do think that just the thrill of discovery and exploration is an important one, though it might be difficult to convince the average person in the street of that. But then again, maybe not. I'd be surprised if I met an ordinary person I couldn't convince of that. And that's to say nothing of the effect something written or said by a person like Carl Sagan could have. But, of course, those aren't the people with the money.

And as for a threat - who's to say we won't get one? Hopefully it won't be another Cold War, but if other countries even start thinking about doing something before America, that's a good thing either way. We have enough potential future competition that I'd say we shouldn't discount the possibility entirely.

Also, two comments on NASA specifically. First, the space shuttle only takes you into orbit, so who needs it, anyway? ( I'm being facetious here, but it still doesn't mean the end of space travel - it couldn't get us anywhere to begin with ) And second, isn't there a plan for a manned mission to Mars by 2030? 18 years does seem like the unimaginably distant future to me, sure, but it's something.

[FantasyKitten]

I actually own the Case for Mars, but I haven't started reading it yet. Also, (perhaps as a result of not reading the book.) I had no idea that there was already a plan in place to go to Mars.

I agree that profit can't be the only motivation to explore. I'm just as starry eyed, pun intended, about space as you appear to be. And its not because it will make us rich. It's because its probably the coolest thing we can do as a species right now. Final frontier, triumph of the human spirit, and all that jazz. You'll find, with many of my stories, romanticizing space flight is something I am inclined to do.

I realize we can't all have Sagans' enthusiasm, but I would generally agree that the layman is inclined to feel, perhaps not as strongly as you or me, that human curiosity is the most intriguing factor in this endeavor. The problem, as you alluded to, appears to be those with money. They have said that they would, provided they get a cost effective mission plan, set out to accomplish these things. The reason that I am skeptical of this is not that I believe that they are money grubbing thieving bastards, though they may very well be. I am skeptical because they have other responsibilities. It would be irresponsible for them to use money to go into space that could be used to make their company stronger. In the mean time, paying lip service to Space Exploration is good for PR.

I don't blame them for this. But it does present an obstacle.

Re: the space shuttles limited range.

True! It seems to me that the most expensive part of this besides research and development is getting off the ground. I've seen a few ways to combat this, first of which is having a port on the moon. Another, that I find interesting, is the concept of a launcher. A loop is placed on the ground, and it spins faster and faster. Eventually you could attach things to the loop and they would have enough velocity to escape the atmosphere. This whole apparatus is several kilometers long, and uses something like magnetic train technology. Don't quote me on that. But, I have heard that the physics work.

I can't imagine the space elevator being plausible.

[Hemingway]

A lot of what The Case for Mars is dealing with, is the logistics of getting to Mars. It's a bit dated now, and after looking it up, I see that the proposed plan (Mars Direct), has been revised. It's possible that what I'm about to say is no longer valid, but the original plan, as proposed in the book, involved producing part of the required fuel on Mars. Unbelievable amounts of fuel are required to get to one of the planets and back, and so that's one of the key problems. After all, that fuel has to be transported, too, and that takes even more fuel.

It's called Mars Direct because it doesn't involve any intermediate steps, no assembling the thing in orbit, or anything like that ( another key point was that it was doable with existing technology ). Which, to me at least, seems like a smart move. As much as I like the idea of having a science fiction-style spaceport in orbit the way you have harbors on earth .. well, I have only a pretty basic understanding of physics, but I do know that even if you assemble your craft in orbit or on the moon, you have to somehow get the components there, and the logistical problems really remain the same. Maybe it's easier to do it piece by piece, but the total mass is the same, so I don't see why.

And, you're absolutely right, that the people with the money have other concerns. I mean, especially with the current state of the economy, getting the billions upon billions of dollars it would take, well, good luck with that. But I also think that's a mistake, and one that can and should be corrected. I'm pretty damn pessimistic about most things, and the chances that anyone can actually convince the people making those kinds of decisions that spending incredible sums of money on something with so few tangible benefits seem slim at best to me. But I can't think of many things that would be more worthwhile to try.

[FantasyKitten]

Thats a good point about the spaceport. Eh, well. I guess thats why Im not an engineer.

On a more encouraging note, at least we'll see the day we go to mars. (hopefully)

Space is so friggin cool.  ;D

[Hemingway]

( At the risk of derailing this thread completely ... )

Space isn't "friggin cool". Space is ... incomprehensibly awesome. No, no, it's much more than that. It's ... well, I can't describe it. But I know of something that can conjure up some of the feelings I have for the universe:

Symphony of Science - Onward to the Edge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akek6cFRZfY

But, on a slightly different note, Mars isn't the only place that might be interesting to visit. It might not even be the most interesting. Jupiter's moon Europa is also an amazing place, one that's very likely to have oceans of liquid water below its surface. That is amazing, and it's important. We know life can exist in all kinds of conditions, but water seems to be a requirement. So, where there's water, there's at least a greater potential for life, compared to where there's not. And think of what the discovery of life on another world would mean.

[Oniya]

But, on a slightly different note, Mars isn't the only place that might be interesting to visit. It might not even be the most interesting. Jupiter's moon Europa is also an amazing place, one that's very likely to have oceans of liquid water below its surface. That is amazing, and it's important. We know life can exist in all kinds of conditions, but water seems to be a requirement. So, where there's water, there's at least a greater potential for life, compared to where there's not. And think of what the discovery of life on another world would mean.

Perhaps why Clarke tried to steer us away from it.  ('All these worlds are yours, except Europa' - 2010: Odyssey 2)  ;)

One thing that I always bring up when lay-people say that 'space travel doesn't help us' or 'we have too many problems down here on Earth' is that the space program has led to many things that we use on a daily basis, from light-weight polymers and cell phones to cordless power tools and smoke detectors.  Not to mention, the fact that re-upping the space program would put a lot of engineers back to work, and take them out of competing for jobs at WalMart. :P  (Seriously, though, there would probably be a lot of jobs created on all levels.  Scientists and engineers have to eat, find places to live, drive cars, etc.  Re-upping a scientific complex would cause a boom in support jobs in that community.)

[FantasyKitten]

Yes! Europa is my number one (realistic) target. I always joke about finding mermaids. But seriously, who knows? There could be multicellular organisms! I'll settle for single celled though. ;)

I also love symphony of science. This one made me cry.
Carl Sagan - 'A Glorious Dawn' ft Stephen Hawking (Symphony of Science)

[FantasyKitten]

Perhaps why Clarke tried to steer us away from it.  ('All these worlds are yours, except Europa' - 2010: Odyssey 2)  ;)

One thing that I always bring up when lay-people say that 'space travel doesn't help us' or 'we have too many problems down here on Earth' is that the space program has led to many things that we use on a daily basis, from light-weight polymers and cell phones to cordless power tools and smoke detectors.  Not to mention, the fact that re-upping the space program would put a lot of engineers back to work, and take them out of competing for jobs at WalMart. :P  (Seriously, though, there would probably be a lot of jobs created on all levels.  Scientists and engineers have to eat, find places to live, drive cars, etc.  Re-upping a scientific complex would cause a boom in support jobs in that community.)

Yeah! I always think about that movie when discussing Europa. :P

I didn't think about that aspect of it. It's a good point, since the US is clearly moving away from manufacturing.

[Oniya]

Well, we'd get a boom in manufacturing, too.  All those spaceship components would need to be made somewhere, and knowing how high security has been historically in the space program, I can't see those being outsourced.

[FantasyKitten]

I was unaware of that, but that is interesting.

Trust me, I live in michigan. We can use all the help we can get.

[Hemingway]

One thing that I always bring up when lay-people say that 'space travel doesn't help us' or 'we have too many problems down here on Earth' is that the space program has led to many things that we use on a daily basis, from light-weight polymers and cell phones to cordless power tools and smoke detectors.

I try to avoid that, though certainly not because it's wrong. It's absolutely true. It might even be necessary to use that kind of argument to convince the right people. But I prefer to look at the universe and exploration of it from a point of view that's driven by curiosity and wonder. Richard Dawkins put it nicely when he said, "Justifying space exploration because we get non-stick frying pans is like justifying music because it is good exercise for the violinists right arm." It's really just my personal preference, though, and I'm thankfully not in the business of trying to influence decision-makers.

[Chipotle]

Hi Kitten!  If you're interested in these things you should check out Elon Musk.  Elon is a crazy busy entrepreneur who co-founded Paypal, and is currently the CEO of Tesla Motors and SpaceX.  He is also chairman of the board for SolarCity, a 100% sustainable sun powered city project / experiment.  Tesla Motors builds 100% electric cars that can go from 0-60 under 4 seconds, and can get over 200 miles on a single charge...not your cross country vehicle, but perfect for commuters who never want to visit a gas station again.  Not to mention zero emissions, of course. Tesla, a small American start up company, actually convinced GM, Nissan, Toyota, and others to advance their electric lines...

Anyway - this guy is a huge dreamer who just seems to envision the future as he wants it to be, and doesn't let others tell him what is and isn't possible.  In fact, he believes humans should be a space-faring race and wants to travel to Mars by the end of his lifetime.  He was originally designing some biodome type projects he wanted to send to Mars...but when he found out that no one could fly his projects there, and that rockets were horribly overpriced, he took matters into his own hands and he built a company to design rockets with him.  They already succeed in making reusable rockets (a huge breakthrough) and, as a privately funded company, are cutting much larger costs than Nasa.

So are his dreams of space-faring humans simply dreams?  I think there are ample resources in space that we could use -  it's just a matter of making it cost efficient.  And after he spearheaded a company building a car running on a lithium battery no one thought could work...who can tell him what can't happen?

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20071201/entrepreneur-of-the-year-elon-musk.html

[Oniya]

I try to avoid that, though certainly not because it's wrong. It's absolutely true. It might even be necessary to use that kind of argument to convince the right people. But I prefer to look at the universe and exploration of it from a point of view that's driven by curiosity and wonder. Richard Dawkins put it nicely when he said, "Justifying space exploration because we get non-stick frying pans is like justifying music because it is good exercise for the violinists right arm." It's really just my personal preference, though, and I'm thankfully not in the business of trying to influence decision-makers.

Ah, but the ones that would be influenced simply by curiosity and wonder typically don't need much convincing.  I work at that angle (curiosity and wonder) with the little Oni, who then passes it on to her friends - I'm such a corrupting influence.  >:)

[FantasyKitten]

Thanks for the link Chipotle, I'll check it out.

Keep spreading the wide-eyed idealism Oni, we can always use more! ^_^

[Oniya]

It's a lot easier when they're ten.   ;D

[Rinzler]

There is of course one practical aspect of space exploration that makes it pretty much an imperative: one day, the sun is gonna go red giant and consume our little planet.

Sure, it's a long way off yet - but I figure, why not start planning early?

We're fairly overdue for a catastrophic asteroid strike, too.

[Hemingway]

Ah, but the ones that would be influenced simply by curiosity and wonder typically don't need much convincing.  I work at that angle (curiosity and wonder) with the little Oni, who then passes it on to her friends - I'm such a corrupting influence.  >:)

If I ever have kids, I'm going to indoctrinate the hell out of them.

But I think a lot of people just don't know how amazing the universe is, because they haven't been exposed to it. It's a large part of the reason why I love the Symphony of Science project. It's a way of exposing people to amazing concepts in a way that's easy to grasp. Now, that only indirectly ( or partially ) affects the exploration of space, but then, all science is connected, so I don't think it really makes sense to talk about the amazing things we could discover on the planets in the solar system without getting into things like biology, chemistry, and the physics of stars and other things.

One thing that, even as I write this, is becoming very clear, is that the erosion of science education that people like Carl Sagan feared ( and that we see dramatic examples of all over the world ), affects a lot more than just peoples' career choices.

There is of course one practical aspect of space exploration that makes it pretty much an imperative: one day, the sun is gonna go red giant and consume our little planet.

Sure, it's a long way off yet - but I figure, why not start planning early?

We're fairly overdue for a catastrophic asteroid strike, too.

Yeah, there's a chance Apophis will hit us in the not too distant future. A slim chance, but a chance all the same. Its name is not incidental, though maybe a touch dramatic. You're right about the sun, too, of course. I looked it up, and a quick google search indicated that our sun would turn into a red giant in about 5 billion years. But don't worry. If you didn't know, and need some cheering up, you should know that the Andromeda galaxy is on a collision course with the Milky Way, and they're predicted to collide in 3 - 5 billion years. In other words, all life here will probably be annihilated before our sun consumes us. Isn't the universe just full of wonder? It's like Christopher Hitchens used to say, "A whole lot of nothing is coming right toward us."

If that's still too cheerful, let me leave you all with this quote, allegedly by Kurt Vonnegut ( I first heard it quoted by Lawrence M. Krauss, another amazing individual ). Now, he said "Things are going to get unimaginably worse, and they are never, ever, going to get better again!"

Such is the nature of the universe we live in. And I don't know about you, but I find it unbelievably fascinating.

[Rinzler]

Yeah, there's a chance Apophis will hit us in the not too distant future. A slim chance, but a chance all the same. Its name is not incidental, though maybe a touch dramatic. You're right about the sun, too, of course. I looked it up, and a quick google search indicated that our sun would turn into a red giant in about 5 billion years. But don't worry. If you didn't know, and need some cheering up, you should know that the Andromeda galaxy is on a collision course with the Milky Way, and they're predicted to collide in 3 - 5 billion years. In other words, all life here will probably be annihilated before our sun consumes us. Isn't the universe just full of wonder? It's like Christopher Hitchens used to say, "A whole lot of nothing is coming right toward us."

LMAO! Yeah, ultimately, we're all doomed - either by the heat-death of the universe or the big-crunch (if the theories are correct); but I hope that future humanity remains ornery and bloody-minded enough to keep on struggling til the bitter end.  ;D

[Oniya]

Hans Behta was the guy who figured out these nuclear physics reactions that fuel the stars. There's a story that once he was giving a Nobel lecture about that. He had a very heavy German accent and he said that he figured that the sun had about 4.5 billion years left to go until this happened. And then he finished his lecture and asked if there were any questions. This guy said, "Excuse me. Did you say 'million' or 'billion'?" years until the sun expands, because he couldn't understand the German accent. Behta answered, "I said 'billion'". The guy asking the question sat down and said, "Oh, I'm relieved".

[Chipotle]

Hans Behta was the guy who figured out these nuclear physics reactions that fuel the stars. There's a story that once he was giving a Nobel lecture about that. He had a very heavy German accent and he said that he figured that the sun had about 4.5 billion years left to go until this happened. And then he finished his lecture and asked if there were any questions. This guy said, "Excuse me. Did you say 'million' or 'billion'?" years until the sun expands, because he couldn't understand the German accent. Behta answered, "I said 'billion'". The guy asking the question sat down and said, "Oh, I'm relieved".

;D Hahahaha!  Fantastic.  I love this story; thanks for sharing.

[Rinzler]

Hans Behta was the guy who figured out these nuclear physics reactions that fuel the stars. There's a story that once he was giving a Nobel lecture about that. He had a very heavy German accent and he said that he figured that the sun had about 4.5 billion years left to go until this happened. And then he finished his lecture and asked if there were any questions. This guy said, "Excuse me. Did you say 'million' or 'billion'?" years until the sun expands, because he couldn't understand the German accent. Behta answered, "I said 'billion'". The guy asking the question sat down and said, "Oh, I'm relieved".

They initially described that figure as the 'Behta Max', but it just never caught on.

;D ;D ;D

Sorry Oniya, you deserved better than a joke like that....

[FantasyKitten]

If I ever have kids, I'm going to indoctrinate the hell out of them.

But I think a lot of people just don't know how amazing the universe is, because they haven't been exposed to it. It's a large part of the reason why I love the Symphony of Science project. It's a way of exposing people to amazing concepts in a way that's easy to grasp. Now, that only indirectly ( or partially ) affects the exploration of space, but then, all science is connected, so I don't think it really makes sense to talk about the amazing things we could discover on the planets in the solar system without getting into things like biology, chemistry, and the physics of stars and other things.

One thing that, even as I write this, is becoming very clear, is that the erosion of science education that people like Carl Sagan feared ( and that we see dramatic examples of all over the world ), affects a lot more than just peoples' career choices.

Yeah, there's a chance Apophis will hit us in the not too distant future. A slim chance, but a chance all the same. Its name is not incidental, though maybe a touch dramatic. You're right about the sun, too, of course. I looked it up, and a quick google search indicated that our sun would turn into a red giant in about 5 billion years. But don't worry. If you didn't know, and need some cheering up, you should know that the Andromeda galaxy is on a collision course with the Milky Way, and they're predicted to collide in 3 - 5 billion years. In other words, all life here will probably be annihilated before our sun consumes us. Isn't the universe just full of wonder? It's like Christopher Hitchens used to say, "A whole lot of nothing is coming right toward us."

If that's still too cheerful, let me leave you all with this quote, allegedly by Kurt Vonnegut ( I first heard it quoted by Lawrence M. Krauss, another amazing individual ). Now, he said "Things are going to get unimaginably worse, and they are never, ever, going to get better again!"

Such is the nature of the universe we live in. And I don't know about you, but I find it unbelievably fascinating.

Vonnegut quotes, childlike wonder, and a love for all things in space?

I think I would like to write a story with you. Perhaps we can go to europa. :P

[Merah]

50 years or so from now, a space elevator will become feasible. We already have carbon nanotubes that have the theoretical strength required for the cable; all that's left is working out the kinks of mass-producing and bonding them, plus a stable anchor mechanism. Given what human engineers have accomplished so far, it seems highly unlikely that we will NOT get past these hurdles.

Once the first cable is up, everything will change overnight. Human civilization will transform as if going through an accelerated Industrial Revolution. Why?
-Once one cable is up, it's a piece of cake to hoist another 50 up. We won't go from zero to one space elevator, we'll go from zero to hundreds of space elevators.
-With these cables up, the cost of lifting cargo into orbit will be reduced by thousands of times... the estimate I've heard is that it will cost as much to hoist 1kg into space as it costs right now to airlift it across the Pacific. Dirt cheap, in other words.
-With a dirt cheap 'launch' technology, what is 'possible' for human civilization will be immediately and completely redefined. Think giant orbital solar power plants that solve our energy woes. Think sending teams to Mars every couple weeks. Think large-scale mining of the moon and asteroids for valuable minerals. Think giant orbital space stations opening by the dozen for commerce, tourism, science, and any other purpose conceivable. Think a real possibility of launching an interstellar mission...

Compared to what we've achieved in the past, designing a workable space elevator is completely reasonable - and it's too important to dismiss as 'science fiction'. This is where it's going to be at, folks.

[Tiberius]

The future of space travel will depend on modern technology already being developed, fusion power that has been developed since the initial "Cold Fusion" experiments Russian scientists devised in the 1970s that provide multitudes of times more power then nuclear energy  and is close to being perfected as what has been said by European engineers.

Solar conductive engines being developed by NASA which will be launched in the next few years, tens of thousands of solar panels are fixed to the "wings" of the satelite probe and will continue to propel the probe faster and faster. Which NASA estimates will allow the probe to pass by the Alpha Centauri system within 30-40 years with the collective energy collected by solar radiation and cosmic energy.

There is also studies being done on cryogenics so passengers of space craft can go into hybernation while on the journey to other planets. Even current propulsion systems take only months to reach Mars, if the new fusion propulsion systems work as proposed travel times to Mars will be cut down to as little as three weeks.

Just like in the last century scientific progress has occurred at a far more rapid pace then any other peroid in history, scientific development has continued to rapidly speed up. Within the next decade we will very likely have a "city in space" which is what they are calling the proposed space tourism center.

[Frelance]

There is a more cost effective way of launching space craft that just need to get to orbit. Instead of having the craft carry all there fuel you load them with water and then super heat the water with lazers so the craft is sent into orbit on steam. If you skip to about 2:20 in this video there is an explanation that is a bit clearer than my words.
Why We Can't "Fire the Photon Torpedoes"

With production of ships in space I believe we can bypass the expense of transporting materials from the earth’s surface into orbit by mining the moon. So we can build a colony on the moon and use the materials that are dug out to build the ships we need. I am not expert but from what I have read and watched it does not seem that far out of our grasp.

I would love to see asteroid mining start because we could just hollow out an asteroid then use the shell as the hull to a ship and fill it with what is needed afterwards. The bad thing about mining asteroids is all the precious metals that would be injected into the economy could cause it to crash if its not handled properly.



If what Merah said about space elevators does happen then there would be a very easy way to transport people and materials from say a colony on the moon back to earth or the other way around. That could mean that specific parts of ships could be built on earth then just sent up while the materials to build the parts are being sent down from an asteroid or the moon.

They have started human testing with suspended animation and there has been some success so we may just have cryo sleep in the near future.

http://www.wimp.com/suspendedanimation/


There is a lake that has been frozen under the ice of antartica for I think millions of years. They are developing a drill that will melt the ice in front of it and then freeze it behind itself so that it does not contaminate the lake when it drills into it. The reason for this is that they do not want to contaminate the lake since the whole point is that it has been isolated for so long that they are interested in seeing how live has evolved differently in the lake then in the rest of the world.

Anyway the reason I am bringing this up is that one of the space programs is paying for the R&D for experiment and the probe because they want to use the same technology when they send a probe to Europa.

So if that continues hopefully we will have a working probe to send to Europa fairly soon.

[Tamhansen]

With production of ships in space I believe we can bypass the expense of transporting materials from the earth’s surface into orbit by mining the moon. So we can build a colony on the moon and use the materials that are dug out to build the ships we need. I am not expert but from what I have read and watched it does not seem that far out of our grasp.

I would love to see asteroid mining start because we could just hollow out an asteroid then use the shell as the hull to a ship and fill it with what is needed afterwards. The bad thing about mining asteroids is all the precious metals that would be injected into the economy could cause it to crash if its not handled properly.

Plus, considering the importance of the moon to Earth's atmosphere, mining the moon might have unforeseen consequences. Considering the rather low density of the Moon, any mining operation would have to assure that they wouldnt bring irreparable damage. Because if the moon became to damaged, the tides on earth, and thus marine life would be art risk.

[Tiberius]

Easy to fix, if there is sufficent technology to mine the moon, then there should be sufficent technology to artificially create *mine-filler* an element that has equal weight/density to what was removed. Say you just fill it in with something useless but still has the same mass so it doesn't damage the weight of the moon.

And there is the thing about the moon's unstable orbit and without any form of correction, it will become to far away from Earth for this planet to exert enough gravity to keep it in orbit in like 30 million years or so, then we suddenly have no moon and it turns into a rogue planetoid and likely goes and obliterates Mars or Venus after crashing into it.

[Zakharra]

Plus, considering the importance of the moon to Earth's atmosphere, mining the moon might have unforeseen consequences. Considering the rather low density of the Moon, any mining operation would have to assure that they wouldnt bring irreparable damage. Because if the moon became to damaged, the tides on earth, and thus marine life would be art risk.

I'd think that is a very very small consideration since by the time humanity would have mined enough ores from the mood to change it's density, there will be other larger sources of ores. T

[RubySlippers]

Well you asked so here is my response.

Space exploitation as is being considers is to big and far to important to leave to individual government it must be a Global effort with all major and minor nations involved.

Seriously NASA and the US alone cannot do it all this is a species effort our species to leave our home and build homes and efforts to gain raw materials elsewhere in our solar system and then beyond, its to big and to important for petty differences of nations. That is why its not going to happen for the foreseeble future no one government can do it and when we get out there do you want the govenment baggage along with it?

And no companies or private interests can do this without a major planetwide support structure.

So I say form a serious multinational space agency under the UN combining the capabilities and resources of the nations to do this its the only option.

[MissFemdom]

I think I will have the most negative opinion about the space quest perspective. In my opinion, space research is dead for at least, 10 years. Technology from Apollo and Mercury programs has been lost (too much generations and a gigantic program (plenty of incoherences and technical problems) such as the Space Shuttle) and new powerful countris are still far from acheiving the necessary technology to launch a realistic space program.

Look at the space programs: the US say that they are preparing a new launcher for 2025 and the BRIC (Brasil, Russia, India and China) are thinking in ICBM launchers for military purposes. What do we have? Geopolitical interests and military supremacy.

I think that it is a shame for humans but we will only have a great period for space research if we have (probably in the next 10 years) a new "Cold War" between China and United States. But I'm almost sure that a global research union will never exist because there are too much political and strategic interests. Usually, space launchers come from military technology and in the world current situation no powerful country will transfer its military and space-related technology to competitors.

Finally, which could be the interest for a country to perform a research in space? For humans and science we could find a lot of interests, but in the american neo-liberalism conception, no money perspective = no investment. And that's it. Nasa is nowadays ridiculous if we compare to 70' to 90' Nasa...

But I don't know, some hope remains inside me.

[AndyZ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power

If you ever played Sim City, you're already familiar with the concept of sending solar panels into space and having them beam back energy at a much more efficient rate than earthbound solar panels.

If you believe in human-made climate change, this seems to be an absolute necessity.  Earthbound solar panels just don't cut it, not only because of clouds and nighttime but our atmosphere blocking so much of the power.

If this technology is important, and the government isn't going to do it, then private businesses will have to build up enough capital in order to create and maintain the technology.

Much of this will have to get too political for me to go into serious details on the hows and whys, but as an oversimplification, this is something involving space which can have serious profit potential once it gets going.

[shooter6806]

If you ever played Sim City, you're already familiar with the concept of sending solar panels into space and having them beam back energy at a much more efficient rate than earthbound solar panels.

If you believe in human-made climate change, this seems to be an absolute necessity.  Earthbound solar panels just don't cut it, not only because of clouds and nighttime but our atmosphere blocking so much of the power.

If this technology is important, and the government isn't going to do it, then private businesses will have to build up enough capital in order to create and maintain the technology.

Much of this will have to get too political for me to go into serious details on the hows and whys, but as an oversimplification, this is something involving space which can have serious profit potential once it gets going.

What he said.  The proponents of "green energy" push solar power hard.  Ground-based solar is intermittent.  It cannot be used for a power grid.  Put the solar panels in space, where the sun never sets, and it becomes not only cost-effective but the ultimate answer for our power needs.

The downside - it would take $500 billion and 15 to 20 years to build the necessary infrastructure and get the system working.

The upside - Limitless clean electricity for the entire world.  With sufficient electricity, we could have economical fuel-cell cars, trucks, and aircraft.  Petroleum would be needed only for making plastics and the like.  Power is everything.  With electricity, you have modern society.  Without it, you're in the Dark Ages or worse.

In addition, nearly every resource that is currently thought to be getting scarce on Earth is available in limitless (for our purposes) quantities in our solar system.

In space, it's raining soup.  And we keep building forks.  We need to start building spoons.

[MissFemdom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power

If you ever played Sim City, you're already familiar with the concept of sending solar panels into space and having them beam back energy at a much more efficient rate than earthbound solar panels.

If you believe in human-made climate change, this seems to be an absolute necessity.  Earthbound solar panels just don't cut it, not only because of clouds and nighttime but our atmosphere blocking so much of the power.

If this technology is important, and the government isn't going to do it, then private businesses will have to build up enough capital in order to create and maintain the technology.

Much of this will have to get too political for me to go into serious details on the hows and whys, but as an oversimplification, this is something involving space which can have serious profit potential once it gets going.

If you consider the entire lifecylce, solar energy is one of the less efficient and the more contaminant. Materials needed to construct a solar panel are extremely dangerous and bad for the earth. And sending solar receptors to the space is really expensive and won't be possible during the next 30 years (we are still trying to build a commercial plane for space tourists at Virgin Space...).

To be honest, I think we should forget space for a while...

[Callie Del Noire]

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/23/11339522-billionaire-backed-asteroid-mining-venture-starts-with-space-telescopes

Good to see that not everyone is being short sighted. The pay off if these guys can pull things off in 10 to 20 years is mind boggling. They are looking for platinum ores and water mostly.. Water would used for a ''fuel farm' in orbit. The ores.. well if they find a 'rich' rock with the ores they are looking for they will VASTLY change the availablilty of a LOT of ores such as iridium and so on.

It is definitely interesting and I wish them lots of luck. I also how they luck out early.. and that others would look for ways to join in.

[NotoriusBEN]

http://www.fastcompany.com/1769468/scientist-discover-the-oldest-largest-body-of-water-in-existence-in-space

I thought this article is cool for showing just how much useful stuff there is in the universe.

Basically, it talks about there being enough water in this one space-cloud for every single man, woman and child to have their own waterworld... 20 THOUSAND TIMES OVER. Of course it is on the other side of the visible universe... but still... wow.

[Kate]

Merah is right.

A Space elevator would figuratively dispense of a lot of issues sending processed goods in the heavens. Of course there are resources up there (asteroids, titanium on moons etc) but a refinery / manufacturing plants IN The heavents to build bigger things is idea. (Yes you can drop it all back down to earth as raw materials also).

One major if this wasnt a global effort (IE if private enterprise was allowed, then the distance between rich and poor is out of control, forever, especially if they can send themselves up there. (Assuming capitalism stays effectively the same). This means that "little girl that wants a dream come true" just sees others having that dream. A dream that "humanity can do it" and "I want to be part of it" are VERY different objectives. What peoples dreams are is that "I want to be part of this, I want to be part of the exploration team". The little girl/boy dream of "Space exploration" isnt satisfied if someone says "We met an alien race that can and does but will not share it with you OH we also have some super rich people/companies that can but they are not interested in bringing you on for the ride, why aren't you smiling ?"

Best option with current know how and capitalistic focus is material engineering (Trying to make new exotic materials to see what they can do / can give immediate returns but not build any craft yet with what we have already.

As far as "space exploration isnt a waste of cash gave us this tech and the other" compared to the investment, the SAME investment in high tech research labs etc ... would have given more I believe (Subjective)

*

IF the world REALLY REALLY wants space exploration, don't give it to NASA or an institution that doesn't have to answer to many or can have their own secrecy. I would love to say the "UN" would be ok but it has similar issues concerning "truth / information management / which powers should be pleased / under the table bargains etc"

This is what you do, you make more "X prizes" - ie FAME, prestige.

(the X prize reward was a LOT less than how much it cost to claim it... but it happened anyway for a reason )

"You want to go down in history books ? We need an alternative energy and propulsion system BETTER than what we have, the first 10 DIFFERENT methods take money and a lot of it, but its not about the money.

It doesn't stop at 1, you get 1 billion dollar rewards for proving it works, there IS NO technology or methodology or mathmatics or science or established truths that we will put constraints on/ You want to try cold fusion again ?

Forget the previous history of it being a bad choice or full of rubbish - go for it. As long as your not polluting the planet or destroying eco systems or doing unethical stuff ... money is yours, instant honorary Nobel prizes, History full of how damn good you are AND the first star ships we will name after you lot ... AND we will make plagues of you in space etc

Feel free to collaborate BUT your papers / everything is public domain ONLY, this is for the people, for humanity, for the world. And these people who discover this and prove it works, will be the first "Citizens of the universe' ! We will sing your name not because you worked it out but because you worked it out and gave it to EVERYONE.

Oh we also are open to new age stuff, astral travel via telepathic means / psychic means, that is still fine IF You can prove it ! That may mean you need to fund a shitty probe to some dark corner to match the drawing / sketch your psychics claim they "visited in the current time" ...  Others who claim Remote viewing shown to frauds ? Doesnt mean you will be, others tried to fly with machines before, their failed attempts doesn't mean that Flying machines are not possible.

For us to be serious about solutions, we are and will stay seriously open-minded."

This gives universities / smaller groups incentives to team up with others.

Most academics are not profit motivated, they are "what can be done, stumped others sure, but I am going to give it ago, the world is too wondrous to believe this isn't possible. Can't get off this carasell, cant get off this world ? Nah sayers can fuck off. They can talk to the hand, Why ? simple, I have a plan, i think so and so was a little overlooked by others, a few things dont add up in a way that i think has potential. I'm too special to be limited to this planet. Stars shine for me !"

Home hobbyists do try and replicate Tesla's stuff (which has one major draw back - that of materials being strong enough to deal with some forces etc, he was a man before his time) with their own cash, some outstandingly successfully. This makes them have an incentive to get together. Soon as a few do ... money will come from private industry and governments alike to help them out.

One thing I do agree with concerning conspiracy theories of "have we already got some alien / UFO technology?" is that with the current climate of

Golden rule 1: Whoever has the gold makes the rules
Golden rule 2: Whoever has power has the gold
Golden rule 3: Whoever has the rules controls information
Golden rule 4: Whoever controls information controls everything.

(which is unfortunately true practically)

.. is if it is POSSIBLE to discover something and it wasn't done academically with prestige motivating, but something else... then "I think we should keep this our secret, if you cant you disappear and it becomes mine.. " is inevitable.

There is just TOO much to gain by being selfish if Prestige isnt trumpeted first, loudest always as the incentive.

A song or Kennedy speech would help no-end.

Babylon Zoo - Spaceman (Original Version - HQ Audio)

As strange as it may be, if new forms of FYL was discovered the BEST person for it to be in the hands of would be ...

.... Lady Ga ga, who thinks

"fuck refining this before I tell someone about it.. its going to be part of my new set ...  Show time Peeps !! Time for you all go to ga ga ... !! I wanna be what proves that little girl/ little boy dream of "ITs true Im part of this". I AM them, they are you, you are MEEEE !! Look at MEEE !! Give me attention !!! "

[RubySlippers]

The world is broke where do you plan to get the money for such grandiose plans?

[Oniya]

'The World' is not 'broke'.  There's a really crappy distribution of wealth right now, but the money exists, probably stuffed into Swiss bank accounts, Cayman Island tax shelters, and corporate jets.

[Kate]

Make tax on inheritance (capital gains)
"tax is x cents to the dollar per transaction".
Have transparent personal accounts (all can see who owns what).
Overhaul ownership rules.

Ie overhaul capitalism.

[RubySlippers]

'The World' is not 'broke'.  There's a really crappy distribution of wealth right now, but the money exists, probably stuffed into Swiss bank accounts, Cayman Island tax shelters, and corporate jets.

Okay I will rephrase with the ones that matter that have this wealth and the power that goes with it, the Global Elites that run things - how will you get them to agree to all this they don't care about the masses?

The only way you will is put their butts in the hot seat and this would require a space threat so large they must commit resources to save their collective selves, or there is an alien invasion or the planet is not habitable and they want to leave and take support staff with them. In short scenarios not likely to happen in our lifetimes so why would they bother?

You want to move against them fine but they have the money, resources, political power and you have to motivate the sheep (masses) to care and much of the world they are just trying to survive day to day right now.

The only reason we have space programs is because those wielding power thinks its for now a worthwhile investment that is not taking to much for the likely rewards, unless you develop impulse engines or something to make going into space practical the current level is as far as we are going to get. I will notice they jumped ship China seems to be where the space program is going they can get into space cheaper and can use all the tech developed from America and Russia to do this.

[Lord of Shadows]

Those that are rich today will not be tomorrow if they miss the entire space race. In the 50s and 60s all was for National pride really "who can be first in doing what". Now it is really about money, sure they still talk about "we will be the first too..." but basically it is about money and resources. Why did the gold rush happen? Or any similar event in human history - resources. Now we have asteroids and the first company (because it will be companies) that manage the first mining operation will move from being rich to absurdly rich. We talking about an amount of resources and rare metals that far surpass the amount that exists on the planet - iron, platinum, gold, you name it - it is there for the taking and as all things that have a good chance of getting profit from - it will happen.

What we see at the moment is just the dawn of everything, but it has started and personally I hope to experience the beginning of our move to space during my life time.

You will have people that is offered insanely amount of money to be miners in space, just watch oil drilling at sea. I can easily see a salary which would be about if not a decade normal salary on Earth a year if not more because these companies that will be created will have more money then they will be able to spend on Earth.

[Oniya]

Okay I will rephrase with the ones that matter that have this wealth and the power that goes with it, the Global Elites that run things - how will you get them to agree to all this they don't care about the masses?

I'd personally hit them where it would do the most motivating:  Ego. 

[Frelance]

I'd personally hit them where it would do the most motivating:  Ego. 

I would mix ego with a tech war and what I mean by that is the battle between Sony and Microsoft to see which would have the best gaming console. Anyway get at least two companies trying to one up the other and things will go much faster.

[Zakharra]

Make tax on inheritance (capital gains)

On inheritance or actual capital gains tax?   Higher taxes on inheritances would hurt a lot of  middle class and business people too.

"tax is x cents to the dollar per transaction".

Sales tax? This affect governments too?

Have transparent personal accounts (all can see who owns what).

Oh, I can see that being real popular by the wealthy of all political leanings.  It would make it a lot businessmen and politicians annoyed.

Overhaul ownership rules.

That would go over like a flying brick.

Ie overhaul capitalism.

Overhaul it too much and you destroy the incentive for people to want to achieve.


  The best way to get the wealthy people and businessmen(these are the people who would have the incentive to actually do it) is to offer  financial incentives and appeal to their egos.  Rearranging the private and tax system to make them contribute would not necessarily the smartest thing to do. If you could actually do it in the first place.

[Kate]

Zakharra,

you do have a point, but I do also. Overhauls and changes that are fundamental to effect those that benefit from the current state.

Removing slavery from england was not easy, because those that had the power / votes / money benefited.
Many believed it couldnt be done, if england choose to the french would win and england "chooses" to bankrupt itself,
the idea of thigns being profitable without slavery was a song that wasnt popular.

Im not saying changes I am proposing would be easy or popular, if change isnt managed revolts happen (french revolution, civil war etc), or even if my suggestions are "the way" to solve things, only that large change is needed to deal with large problems.